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I know it's been exhausting. I'm exhausted too. But you're still a Rockie, for now.
It seems like 90% of the trade rumors we hear about the Atlanta Braves are 100% distasteful to Braves fans, and are oddly biased in favor of the other team -- something that is historically rare in recent Braves trades. Perhaps that's why there hasn't actually been a trade that has happened from any of these rumors.
The latest and most often repeated rumor this off-season comes back to the surface, this time with the note that interest has in fact cooled. Here is Colorado Rockies beat writer Troy Renck:
While outfielder Seth Smith remains a coveted commodity, the Atlanta Braves' interest has cooled, according to a major league source with the direct knowledge of the talks.
The Braves are unwilling to move infielder Martin Prado, the Rockies' desired target, without an accompanying move to add infield depth.
Three things there. First, I'm glad these talks have cooled. Second, I'm glad that the Braves were holding firm by asking for multiple pieces in exchange for Smith. Third, notice how Prado is said to be infield depth for the Braves. That tells me the Braves still view him has an important backup for Chipper Jones at third base -- as they should.
Renck also says this about the other most often discussed Braves trade chip:
Always a longshot to land Braves pitcher Jair Jurrjens, Colorado is not pursuing the right-hander, and was never a serious suitor. With six weeks remaining until spring training, the Rockies are currently focusing on minor trades while continuing to canvas for rotation help.
They are really fixated on Prado. Hopefully the Braves would make them pay big time if Colorado were to actually acquire him. And that could have been what submarined the talks. According to Ken Rosenthal, it seems like the Braves were trying to get quite a bit from the Rockies:
Talks with the Braves cooled when the teams could not agree on the pitching prospect that the Rockies would include with Smith to get Martin Prado, sources say.
All off-season we've been hearing that it was one of the center field prospects on the Rockies that the Braves were trying to acquire along with Smith, but to learn that it might have been a pitching prospect is very intriguing. This brings the Braves thinking into light, and gives us an idea of how they are approaching trades. They used to only trade away pitching prospects, but with Jurrjens and Arodys Vizcaino acquired in the last few years, the Braves seem to be trying to use trades to acquire top-end pitching talent.
At this point if a trade is to happen I've got to think that it's going to happen with a team that hasn't been mentioned in any rumors yet. It seems like the Rockies and Orioles trade options have been discussed and shot down so many times that the media has proven there's no match there. Maybe that's just me hoping the Braves don't trade with either of those teams.
UPDATE:
Good point about the pitching prospect from David O'Brien:
If this is the case, if the Braves’ focus with Colorado had indeed shifted from center-field prospect to pitching prospect in package with Smith, then to me that’s an indication Atlanta was and probably still is trying to get center fielder Adam Jones from Baltimore, and would use any pitching prospect it received from Colorado either to replace the one that the Braves might lose in a deal for Jones, or actually use that pitching prospect from the Rockies as part of a package Atlanta would send to Baltimore for Jones because the Braves wouldn’t agree to part with one of their own pitching prospects that the O’s covet.
The problem is that I don't want any of those rumors to come true.
0 recs | 39 comments
At the end of the day, none of us have any idea what Frank Wren is doing. Probably why we have our jobs, and he has his.
kalesi - January 5, 2012
are we sure Frank Wren knows what Frank Wren is doing?
JoelGuzman'sScout - January 5, 2012
While it’s probably not a popular position, I learned long ago that the Braves’ front office is, more often than not, in the business of making really good deals. In fact, there was some writer not long ago that mentioned teams are reluctant to deal with Atlanta in trades given their long track record of dealing players at the absoulte pinnacle of their value.
The Braves have one of, if not the best, front offices and scouting staffs in the game. Sometimes we, as fans, need to just accept the fact that they know a heckuva lot more about this game than we do.
kalesi - January 5, 2012
Okay...
But when was the last time we won a playoff series? Answer: 2001.
If the Braves front office is so darn good at what they do, then we would win more. It’s that simple.
Sure, some can come up with a zillion reasons why we haven’t won a darn thing in over a decade, but at the end of the day either we’re making the wrong decisions or we are handicapped by salary constraints.
Since many teams around our salary level have been successful, it’s possible we aren’t as smart as people think, which is why I’m not willing to give our team a pass as the other teams in the NL East attempt to get better while we don’t even add bench depth.
Jman781 - January 5, 2012
I think that’s a pretty poor barometer you’re using. Playoff series are crapshoots. Hot teams generally beat better teams and anything can happen in the NLDS.
That said, one playoff berth in the last six…is actually pretty average for most organizations not named the Braves. 4 teams haven’t made it in that time, 5 teams made it once, four twice, two three times and one five times.
Given the amount of youth on the current team, I think the Braves are in great position to move up the ladder on this particular tally.
-C
cthabeerman - January 5, 2012
Fine...
At best, we’ve been distinctly average. That’s not good enough for me. Instead of trying to improve the team, the Braves are sitting back and resting on its laurels.
When a team that hasn’t won a playoff series in over a decade and only been to the playoffs once since 2005 sits back and does nothing, it’s troubling, no matter how great people think our non-playoff roster is going to be this season.
Nobody can say we can’t improve, for that’s ignorant. I am not saying we should make stupid trades or dumb signings, but we’ve done zip this off-season—not even minor moves.
Jman781 - January 5, 2012
Makes sense...
But with only 1 spot truly up for grabs at short, deep rotation options, and deep bullpen options from an 89 win team that suffered a monumental collapse, outside of bench players and low leverage relievers, what is there to really do?
Im all for getting creative, and not opposed to moving one of Minor, Delgado, or Vizzy in addition to Prado or Jurrens. However, the Braves see more value in them on their roster than on someone elses at this point. Which could all be blowing smoke, because I dont yet see the value in being so stingy with any of them. Either the market doesnt dictate a return in the Braves favor, or Wren and Braves personnel know something about these guys and their immediate impact that I dont. Either being highly likely.
aRC - January 5, 2012
Precisely.
The team won 89 games and suffered one of the great collapses in regular season history. Frankly, if the team stays healthy (always an if) and we can avoid running our bullpen out there every night, there’s no reason to think we can’t be at least that good in 2012.
kalesi - January 5, 2012
And don't forget...
that even the September collapse would not have mattered if at the same time the Cardinals had not gotten on an incredible hot streak. There’s nothing to be gained in reacting drastically to extreme outlier events. That’s why I think the Red Sox are screwing up big time.
Cornutt - January 7, 2012
Okay...
But the fact that the Marlins and Nats are improving, has far more to do with those two teams playing catch up than it does with Braves standing pat. Bad teams with money and high draft picks have to eventually get better. Theres nothing the Braves can do about that.
The glass half empty approach can always be flipped. The early 2000s Braves posted 2 100 win teams, fell off of a cliff, and rebuilt in 3 years, which is something 90% of the league could only dream of being able to do. The Braves dynasty ran its course in the 90s and was somehow extended into the mid 2000s. If rebuilding at the speed the Braves have, making the playoffs in 2010 and just missing it in 09 and 11 doesnt scream successful (or at the very lest well run), then you my friend have utopian views for baseball franchises.
The only thing both our views have in common is that the Braves havent won a World Series, which is all the matters and is the dream of many franchise. Though I will say that I do believe JSs push for a championship in the early 2000s mightve hurt the Braves more than it helped them.
aRC - January 5, 2012
Yes, but how much of it is lightening in a bottle?
Look at last season’s Cardinals team. On the final stretch they were 10 games back of Atlanta. If you put the Cardinals’ roster and the Braves’ roster side by side, how many of their players would you have taken and replaced on Atlanta’s team? Pujols and Matt Holliday? How many pitchers? Carpenter?
At the end of the day Atlanta puts a team on the field that can get to the playoffs. Even Billy Beane says the playoffs are a crap shoot. Sometimes teams get hot and win. Heck, Philadelphia has been clearly the best team in the NL for a while now, and they’ve got one championship and are quickly heading for that ignomous distinction that the Braves’ have carried as the “good in the regular season, but can’t get it done in the post season” team.
In 20 seasons the Braves made the post season 15 times. What on earth do we have to complain about?
kalesi - January 5, 2012
I think people are misinterpreting my comment.
I’m not saying we’re trash.
I’m not saying we’re far off.
I am saying we have room for improvement and could use additional pieces. There is not a single team in MLB that should feel 100% comfortable with its 2011 team. Everyone should be striving to improve, yet the Braves aren’t, at least not from anything I’ve seen.
We’re simply content throwing the same team out there as last year, minus a few headaches like Lowe and Sea Bass.
Sure, Heyward, Prado, JJ, Hanson, etc. could be dominant and put up stellar rebound years, Chipper could be relatively healthy, Uggla could be solid for an entire season, McCann can be dominant for an entire season, etc., but, in reality, all our guys aren’t going to be 100% healthy and/or have career years. I truly hope I’m wrong.
Thus, we shouldn’t assume all of the above and should attempt to improve our team.
What’s the worst that could happen? We have too much talent on the team? What happens if Pastornicky can’t cut it? What happens if Chipper has another serious injury? Who plays left? Who plays short?
Jman781 - January 5, 2012
I imagine all of those contingencies are being planned for.
Again, I think where the fans screw up is thinking inaction = failure. The Braves learned a hard lesson with the Texieria trade, which was really the last time they went for broke for one player.
No one is claiming the Braves shouldn’t try to improve, of course they should. But there comes a point when improving over the short term hurts you over the long term.
There probably isn’t an easy answer to the question. Every team has holes, even the 102 win Phillies have holes. Glaring holes. You just manage them the best you can, hope your in the race come July, and then see what you can do.
kalesi - January 5, 2012
I understand...
But I don’t think we have to mortgage the future to sign a couple of bench players.
The problem, sadly, is our credit cards are apparently maxed out. Thus, we can’t afford to sign anyone.
I am not in the trade for A. Jones or Seth Smith at all costs camp. I don’t even think we need a major move. We haven’t been players for anyone, not even back-up shortstops.
Jman781 - January 5, 2012
I don’t think anyone has any idea who the Braves are players for. Honestly, who had even heard the Braves connected with Dan Uggla before they landed him?
I realize everyone is concerned with the here and now, but every team has holes, our holes are relatively small, and we have a front office that has a track record of striking quickly and without warning. If there is a deal to be had, Wren will make it.
kalesi - January 5, 2012
I think it fairly obvious the Wren is just gauging the market for the Braves’ two most moveable pieces. At the end of the day, moving either Jurrens or Prado with 2 years of arbitration remaining is far more of a luxury than it is a necessity. It would seem unwise, to even the most casual of baseball fan, to force the issue on 2 former all stars, at their respective ages, for the sake of what seems to be a marginal upgrade at best, if any.
Both of these moves have the look of the Javier Vasquez situation, where getting a prospect along with a serviceable everyday major leaguer is the best case scenario. Not because Wren has to, but because Wren can.
I mean, in all seriousness, if the Braves really coveted a left field thumper, or a starting shortstop, there are plenty of pieces in the Braves farm system, including the Big 4, that could get the deal done. Just throwing names out there, but Logan Morrison, Wil Myers, Alex Gordon, BJ Upton, Cain, Venable etc… are far from unattainable.
aRC - January 5, 2012
Why would we trade for both Seth Smith and Adam Jones? Would Smith be the bench bat/back up outfielder with Diaz?
thejivingturkey - January 5, 2012
Two points.
1. Concerning this line from the Denver writer…
My question is this:
For Smith to be desired, you gotta have a need for a situational lefty hitter, who is – at his best – a platoon guy in the outfield. The Braves could do this with Caveman, but I doubt there are many other teams breaking down their door for that kind of a guy.2. Concerning DOB’s comment:
Okay, so why then would we even want Smith at all if we were to get Adam Jones? We already have 4th and 5th OFers in Diaz and Hinske. Getting Jones would eliminate any thought (in my mind) of taking Smith.
I can see the Rockies insisting on having somebody – anybody – taking Smith. But that all suggests to me that we have the wrong targets in these rumors.
carpengui - January 5, 2012
Regarding this...
About 75% of the starting pitchers in MLB are RH, so Smith’s on the vastly more important side of the platoon.
-C
cthabeerman - January 5, 2012
‘tis true of course…. though with all the teams supposedly seeking OF bats, I don’t recall any of them being linked to Smith… except Atlanta, of course, and that’s mostly thanks to Denver writer making that link.
… meanwhile, something truly nutty could be in motion… I’m thinking about a post on the rosterbation thread.
carpengui - January 5, 2012
Quite a few teams have been in on Smith, at least in preliminary talks. Reds and Tigers come to mind, the A’s and a few more I’m forgetting atm.
-C
cthabeerman - January 5, 2012
Still don't really want either
IMO, Prado > Smith or Jones, so why make a move for the sake of making a move? The only move that really makes since, considering as many said all along that no one will give us a return for Prado that equals his value to us, is something involving Jurrjens for either a B or better near ready CF prospect or 3B prospect. That’s the only move that makes sense for us, Jurrjens for a prospect package centered around someone of that ilk. We get the near ready guy to slide in for Bourn or Chipper next year, and have Jurrjens replacement in the much cheaper form of Teheran or Delgadao. It fills a need, doesn’t create a hole (which moving Prado would do) and saves much needed money for either a mid season move or reinvesting in the draft/international free agents.
Mr. Sanchez - January 5, 2012
Pretty much
If Wren was really trying to make the team better by moving Prado or Jurrens, he could. These actions dont display a win now, at all costs, approach, because it is unnecessary. Moving Prado would most certainly require a replacement and a prospect for the deal to make any sense. I dont see many teams doing that for Prado alone. Another Uggla deal is just wishful thinking.
However, Jurrens for 2 young B+ or better prospects in the lower minors or a ml ready replacement level player and a b level prospect in the upper minors isnt out of the question. But still more of a luxury for Wren than anything.
aRC - January 5, 2012
From what I gather from this
I’m wondering if Wren was planning on sending the prospect from the Rockies to the O’s for Jones while making another trade with the scraps from that trade (Smith) with someone else .
bravesdude - January 5, 2012
That does seem awfully playstationish though
in reality, and I’m not saying this about you dude, more about DOB’s comments, but in reality, flipping players just doesn’t happen like that. The only time I can recall it was the 1B Wallace who was in the Roy Halladay deal from Phily and got flipped to Houston (at least I think that was how it went). Other than that, I can’t recall a trade where one of the return pieces was immediately flipped and shipped elsewhere.
Mr. Sanchez - January 5, 2012
Brett Wallace, Michael Taylor and Anthony Gose are all prospects that were essentially flipped
Mike Napoli last year. it does happen
Andrew T. Fisher - January 5, 2012 via Android app
The reason for my theory
was basically due in part that Smith wouldn’t really fit the bill and wouldn’t be needed after we were to acquire Jones and could be flipped for a possible UT guy and a prospect .
bravesdude - January 6, 2012
Far-fetched but...
I saw a tweet to DOB from a guy in the Dom Rep asking if it was true that the Braves are going to offer Miguel Tejada a contract. Tejada plays SS and 3B. What if there was a 3 way trade….
Braves get Adam Jones, a Colorado pitching prospect and sign Tejada
Rockies get Martin Prado
Orioles get Seth Smith and Braves pitcher that’s about ready, Hoover, Spruill or Redmond
bighop - January 5, 2012
That trade might actually work for all teams .
bravesdude - January 5, 2012
A 3 team deal makes a lot more sense than a quick flip
Mr. Sanchez - January 5, 2012
That's darn close to what I posted on the rosterbation thread.
I added Pastornicky going to the Orioles to play 2nd base with Robert Andino to be the super utility guy, handling SS/3B/OF.
carpengui - January 5, 2012
Your’s makes more sense, I wasn’t aware the O’s had so many OF’s. They wouldn’t need Smith.
bighop - January 5, 2012
My thoughts on trade rumors:
1) GMs discuss potential trades all the time to see what might be out there and assess value.
2) The reasons for some discussions being reported as close to being possible rather than others is influenced by who wants to leak this information to leave a footprint on the market. This will also influence the makeup of any reported deal that comes out of the discussions (which is why so many potential deals seem one-sided).
3) Writers are more than happy to carry the water for any executives and/or agents who want to influence the market by putting their information out there, because writers are increasingly starved for “hot stove” tidbits to report in the Twitter era and want to relay all information that they hear to confirm their status as insiders and attract a greater following.
Sir Stealth - January 5, 2012
to be honest
I wouldn’t be to mad at a Prado for Smith + Adam Jones which is essentially what it would be if we flipped that prospect around to Baltimore.
Although in that scenario it makes you think that either there would be some platooning going on in our OF or the team might have truly soured on J-Hey which would be unwise
drumzalicious - January 6, 2012
Still think if we do make a move, it’s gonna be one totally out of the blue. Till then, these rumors are fun to think about I guess.
MVPrado - January 6, 2012 via mobile
Exactly .
The Braves have generally been quiet on their actual deals over the years . I wonder if the ‘rumored’ deals are just smoke screens to an actual deal with a mystery team that we haven’t heard of yet .
bravesdude - January 6, 2012
Wouldn’t surprise me of we got Ellsbury tulowiski and mark texeria for brooms Conrad. Okay maybe I’m exaggerating a tad, I’m just ready to see the starting 9 on turner field on 4/13, anybody else??
MVPrado - January 7, 2012 via mobile
I agree on the comments that Wren has his job and it is to make the braves the best they can within a certain budget. Though I still don’t know why they would want to trade Prado, he is a very valuable player to have.
chrisdaugherty - January 6, 2012 via iPhone app
That's a good question actually
My guess is it’s a combination of two things. First, I don’t think that Prado was ever comfortable in the outfield, and even though he may not say so publicly, the Braves staff knows. Notice how all of the trade rumors for Prado involve him going some place where he would be primarily an infielder. Second, I think the Braves are looking out the next two years and seeing that they’ve got high-probability prospects for the infield positions that will be opening up, e.g., if Pastornicky doesn’t make it at SS then Simmons will, and they’ll move Pastornicky to 3B. Or Terdoslovich will be at 3B, and one of Pastornicky or Simmons will be the bench infielder. If you allow for these things coming to pass, and with players who wil have years of team control, then Prado’s long-term value to the Braves goes down. The big question is whether the Braves see Prado as the long-term 3B after Chipper retires, or if they prefer one of the prospects.
Cornutt - January 7, 2012
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