Talking Chop

How exactly is Adam Jones a great player? I guess Frenchy is a great player then, bunch of great players out there it looks like…

JoelGuzman'sScout - January 3, 2012 reply

the issue

is that Adam Jones has progressed to where he is now, Frenchy had a good year and has regressed from there. I’ve seen some projections of Adam Jones that are .285/.330/.500 THIS YEAR.

I still don’t consider that a GREAT pleyar. projections are nice to look at, but the player needs to actually produce the projections. Jones isn’t some shitty player, but he is far from a great player. I don’t care how much potential a player has, if he doesn’t live up to it, then what good is that potential? Jones and Frenchy have pretty similar numbers when you break it down. I don’t feel like breaking it down, because it’s been broken down too much as is. Go look at the numbers and I think you can tell for yourself. I’m not saying it would be a bad trade, just all depends what we are giving up. But, to say Adam Jones ia a great player, is just not true and that is the point I was saying.

player***

His “greatness” is irrelevant if he can help this team, which he can.

Sure, his greatness is irrelevent if he can help us, which he can as you said. It’s false that Adam Jones is a great player, and I called it how I saw it. If he is gonna say Adam Jones is great, then jeez, might as well call Frenchy and tons of other guys great, when they flat out aren’t.

rockybull - January 4, 2012 reply

I wasn’t comparing to him to a HOFer, compared to what we’ve had in the outfield recently I would definitely consider him “great”.

jnrumsey - January 3, 2012 reply

Again, Frenchy would be considered a “great” player, because he was good this past year. Frenchy and Jones had the same WAR last season. Again, like I said from the start, Jones isn’t a great player, just like Frenchy isn’t. If you gonna consider Jones a great player based on how our OF was this past year, then we can call Frenchy and a lot of others same thing.

rockybull - January 4, 2012 reply

now

I’m not a big fan of this rumor but if he came over and put up that slash line I wouldn’t be too upset. A .500 slg % is nothing to sneeze at.

drumzalicious - January 3, 2012 reply

right, never said it is anything to sneeze at. I was just pointing out he isn’t great even with that stat line. Never said I wouldn’t want him on the team in the right deal.

rockybull - January 4, 2012 reply

I would do it straight up for JJ just for the offensive depth it gives us, but I wouldn’t throw in any more than filler prospects to get the deal done. Prado is probably better offensively than Jones, but having Prado as a utility player makes the team better overall.

Especially since...

We know Chipper will need many days off, and we could spell Jones, Heyward, or Bourn as needed…

I’d be all for JJ straight up…maybe a lower level prospect or two along with him at the most.

He hasn’t been great thus far but he’s still young and there’s no doubting his talent.

michaeldlee1480 - January 3, 2012 reply

Problem is, the Orioles wouldn't

and think JJ, Prado + prospect isn’t enough.

Mr. Sanchez - January 3, 2012 reply

Gondeee... it's only 3 days into the new year and you're already jaded...

I’m disappointed… I figured it’d take at least hearing something like this 12 more times before you lost it… :-)

Regardless. Adam Jones is a player I wouldn’t mind having… At the right price… and the right circumstance. There have been a few players I didn’t expect moving this winter and Jones is one of those… If we get him and keep Prado, it will improve our 2012 club substantially… Especially if the price is just JJ…

This...

I get Jones is average defensively and has Frenchy-like tendencies, but, at the right price, which to me would JJ and, maybe, a low-level prospect, he’d upgrade our team. A. Jones is talented, even if he’s not the superstar some feel he is…Heck, it’s not like JJ’s a superstar, either.

If it’s Prado and JJ, then we’d be crazy.

Prado is better offensively. How is Jones an upgrade?

That’s just it – I think he’s saying we’d be nuts to include both Prado and JJ in such a trade.

I would rather keep JJ than trade for Jones

Jones or Seth Smith?

Given that horrible choice I’d take Jones.

Having Jones on the team instead of JJ may be to our comparative advantage, even if JJ > JOnes.

That said, I’d rather trade JJ for a straight prospect haul isntead of Jones.

Broccoman - January 3, 2012 reply

i don't disagree w/ this.

neither?

by trading for Jones (with JJ) we get an above average OFer w/ a TON of potential

Prado plays the rover we so desperately need w/ old man jones and the rest of the crew needing a rest… We don’t lose any versatility and we gain an incredible chip for our future. Jones to CF when Bourn leaves and we can revisit LF again next year…

The question is, would the gap between JJ and his replacement be more or less than the gap between both AJ and Prado and Prado to our next best bench player. Overall, having Prado, AJ, and let’s say Mike Minor, is better than having JJ and Prado.

sure

but since Jones would be taking significant playing time from Prado, does it really make us better? We gain position depth but lose pitching depth which is where I think we really should be concerned

Yes, but the drop off from Jones to Prado is pretty small. Having Prado to fill in around the diamond would help this team immensely, and it would probably keep him and everyone else fresher down the stretch. You also have to think about Jones as the backup CFer, and the drop off from him to Constanza is ridiculous. The fact is, with Prado and Jones on the team, you’re getting a higher number of quality ABs throughout the season.

Yes, but the drop off from Jones to Prado is pretty small

No, not really.

I'll be in Montgomery

This weekend.

for?

Give me a hollar…

Oh, you know

that new 8 week course that sounds like so much fun….ugh

HAHAHAHAHA... sucks to be you...

sounds good dude. I’ll be here. you have my cell?

I sure don't

I don’t even have your email anymore. I’ve changed computers several times since then.

haha... no fun

you can always look me up on the global… but my personal email is klemsonkrash@google.com

Sweet!

I’m a Nigerian prince, and I need you to help my family in the states. There’s money in it for you.

I’ll shoot you an e-mail.

Don't worry...

I have plenty for everyone. I love making wise investments.

Klemson Krash - January 4, 2012 reply

So will I

My flight leaves from there… or is it Birmingham? Yeah its Birmingham never mind!

abraves257 - January 3, 2012 reply

Booooo

dude, you're killin me...

when you gunna get down here to visit. :-P

I Hate

that the word “like” has become a replacement for “about” or just gets used when it doesn’t need to be. I can’t wait for like spring training so like I can find something like worthwhile to like complain about.

HeyMikey - January 3, 2012 reply

I'm just gonna go on record...

…saying that a Braves/Blue Jays deal involving Jurrjens makes a lot more sense for both those teams.

Alex Anthopolous has got to be the Braves ideal kind of trading partner anyway: doesn’t blab to the press about what they’re looking at; and cuts to the chase when considering deals. The Blue Jays have a stacked farm system, and could deal with just about anybody, but this makes reasonable sense… the only question being what we could glean from them in return.

AA is as big a genius as FW is... neither could really fleece the other in my opinion

but there’s little to no way we’d get over value dealing w/ the Blue Jays… that’s my only gripe. From most any other front office, FW can pull the wool and get some pieces added we don’t expect (hello Vizcaino)… w/ AA, I just don’t see that happening…

...but having said THAT...

I’ll go ahead and play the game here, just because it’s early, and we’re all waiting for the Howitzer to shoot this down. Here’s the relevant tweets, so far:

MONDAY, 7:19pm: Coco Crisp won’t be on the open market much longer. The free agent outfielder has decided which team he’ll sign with, agent Steve Comte told Susan Slusser of the San Francisco Chronicle. “Basically, we just have to let that team know,” Comte told Slusser.

MONDAY, 8:55pm: The Orioles have been talking to Crisp in recent days and they’re interested in signing him, Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com reports.

TUESDAY, 7:33am: Today, Jon Heyman is the lone voice trying to shoot down his own rumor…

JonHeymanCBS Jon Heyman
Orioles are looking for a leadoff hitter. But apparently, they are looking elsewhere now. Sev other teams were in on crisp.

JonHeymanCBS Jon Heyman
While orioles talked to crisps agent, it sounds like its not them (I need a new crystal ball). Not a perfect fit for baltimore.

That notwithstanding, there’s the quote cited by gondee above came in around 8am:

Source: #Orioles and #Braves are making progress on an Adam Jones deal. Hearing Jurrjens is involved"

…But this actually would make sense is Crisp is heading to Baltimore. So now check this out: this picture has popped up on Coco Crisp’s twitter page:

So if Coco is intending to sign with the Orioles, this does allow them to consider moving Jones… a lot more so than last week. And if so, the Orioles might have been trying to keep that decision quiet to keep some leverage in any deal that might include Adam Jones.

Just sayin’

You CSI’d the crap out of that rumor.

Never underestimate the power of sheer boredom.

so... the rumor was a crime scene...

I think that sounds about right. :-)

The O's also

Just recieved Jai Miller (OFer) from the A’s who was projected to start in the A’s OF this year .

bravesdude - January 3, 2012 reply

For the record... Crisp re-signs with Oakland.

2 yrs…. $6m/$7m
Team option for $7.5 in 2014 with $1m buyout.

I think this helps us.

it sets a market for Michael Bourn. They have very similar skillsets, Bourn just does it better. I’m thinking 3/$27M with an option/buyout for year 4 would be more than fair.

dlkinser86 - January 3, 2012 reply

Yeah, not so much.

-C

cthabeerman - January 3, 2012 reply

This...

A deal with the Blue Jays for Snider and Marisnick for JJ would be fair for both sides.

Bsdoom - January 3, 2012 reply

I’d love that deal.

Jay212033 - January 3, 2012 reply

We are going to sign Cody Ross, aren’t we?

ryan c - January 3, 2012 reply

Not for 2 years and $10mil.

I would love jones for a b level pitcher + jurrjens

Throughout is young career jones has hit between .270 and .284 and has hit a minimum of 19 hr in the past 3 years. Jurrjens is an injury prone pitcher who will NEVER have a higher value in an organization deep with pitchers, And by all means throw in spurril, do you ever expect to see him in the majors?

zacheyp - January 3, 2012 reply

ummm……yeah…..most expect to see Spruill in the majors in the next couple of years.

for the Braves? as what... a reliever?

Or spot starter.

I took zachey’s comment to mean that he didn’t expect Spruill to ever reach the major leagues due to his abilities, though I guess he might have been saying there’s just no room for him here.

Still, it’s misguided to suggest including a talented prospect as a throw-in simply because we have an abundance of pitching already.

what i am saying is

he just dosent fit

zacheyp - January 3, 2012 reply

That doesn’t mean you just throw him away in a trade unnecessarily. But yeah, my bad for the snark. I thought you were saying he wasn’t good enough to reach the majors.

If....

You’ve never had a staph infection, it is hard to believe how much it saps you of your strength…Martin has a track record of hitting success. We’ll be very sorry if we deal this team-oriented, hard working, versatile Venezuelan.

WTF, nobody in this thread/rumor has mentioned at any point that Prado would be included.

Then there is this...

Connolly doesn’t see Jurrjens as a centerpiece for a Jones trade. Instead, the Orioles are intrigued by Tommy Hanson.

We better not be trading Tommy Hanson in a deal for Adam Jones, that’s all I got to say.

Maybe if they throw in something else.

done and thank you again.

I love this fantasy world.

Klemson Krash - January 4, 2012 reply

Or really, for anyone not named Pujols.

Knowing Wren, they’ll ask for Hanson and end up with Todd Redmond or some equivalent.

Hahah

I love FW.

If they want Hanson they better be sending Markakis and $$$ in return

bbaker68 - January 3, 2012 reply

Justin Upton and Bautista

would be the ones I would trade Hanson+ for.

BravosFanatic - January 3, 2012 reply

That guy mentions the “Jurrjens, Prado and a minor league pitcher for Jones” rumor as it there is any legitimacy to it whatsoever. He then talks about the Orioles asking for Jurrjens, Prado and two of our best pitching prospects. He’s an idiot.

I'm going to Spring Training in March...

Any recommendations on the best way to see games in Orlando?

WeStillHaveBobby - January 3, 2012 reply

Any seat

is good at the stadium. The cheapest way to go is to buy lawn tickets. You can just throw out a blanket and sit anywhere on the grass on the left field side. From what I saw last year, it’s a good spot to get autographs too.

Thanks, man.

The lawn seating is nice

Plenty of elbow room and the kids can run around if you have any .

bravesdude - January 3, 2012 reply

IT JUST WON'T DIE (MLBTR)

Dan Connolly of the Baltimore Sun has produced a good amount of Orioles information today; let’s discuss the highlights.

The Orioles are fairly confident they will add another outfielder, though that wouldn’t necessarily portend an Adam Jones trade. The Orioles were not overly intrigued by the Braves’ offer of Jair Jurrjens, Martin Prado, and a minor league pitcher. Connolly doesn’t see Jurrjens as a centerpiece for a Jones trade. Instead, the Orioles are intrigued by Tommy Hanson.

Wait, wait, wait

the O’s turned down JJ, Prado AND another player for Adam Jones?

Never happened. Couldn’t have. These “writers” are just that dumb.

If the O's were actually offered that and turned it down.......

Their entire front office should be fired.

No way these rumored offers can actually be true. If the Braves really offered JJ/Prado/Prospect for Adam Jones, I’m not sure who is dumber: the Braves or the Orioles?

bbaker68 - January 3, 2012 reply

Has to be the Orioles. That trade wouldn’t really harm our team drastically in the short or long term, but The O’s would get drastically better.

Not really...

They get better short-term, but that’s it. How does that actually help them?? They’re mired in a division with three teams that are vastly superior and another that may be coming into its own soon enough.

With Jones, they have one upcoming potential FA to sign to an extension for FA money. If they trade for Jurrjens and Prado, now they have two guys with the same amount of team control that they need to try to re-sign with FA-level money.

Neither Prado or Jurrjens are likely going to be worth the amount of money necessary ($13+MM/year) to receive draft pick compensation, so they’re trading one guy for two guys. Either would have to put up big numbers in both 2012 and 2013 to reach that status, which is possible…but it’s a bit dicey, too, given the combination of injuries and recent poor performance (Jurrjens’ first half being the exception).

If they do reach that status, they’re going to command a lot of money, so even if they’re good, there’s something bad attached. FWIW, the same is true of Adam Jones, but there’s no recent injury stigma there.

Okay, fine deal short-term, but they aren’t going to win the division or wild card with or without those guys. Same goes for Jones. So why trade him?? Prado and Jurrjens are big enough names to impact attendance?? Doubtful. Impactful enough to make the teams compete in the division?? Unlikely.

What the O’s need in a deal for Jones is prospects, which is roughly the same need the Braves have in trading Prado or Jurrjens.

We can say that the deal is bad for the Braves until we’re blue in the face, but it doesn’t solve any of the Orioles’ issues, either. I think that, more than anything, is why this trade rumor needs to die.

-C

cthabeerman - January 3, 2012 reply

I still can’t bring myself to believe that Wren actually made that offer.

this

There is no way

absolutely no way.

Once debunked the story became

it was for Jurrjens, then for Prado, then another. It was never all 3. Or at least that was the way the guys on the Braves side described the “offer”.

Mr. Sanchez - January 3, 2012 reply

this

(apologies to TomahawkGuy — I now see you broke this info first.)

Frank Wren has shown a lot of faith in giving the ball to the young guy (Heyward, Freeman, Pastornicky, etc.). It would not suprise me to see him want to hand the ball to Teheran too. To do so, we need to deal a pitcher.

I have for many a year put a lot of faith in our front office. They know this team better than any of us would dream of. If Hanson is on the block, I know that someone who is as pitching-obsessed as Wren is has a good reason for it.

kalesi - January 3, 2012 reply

So sad seeing the Nat's being the frontrunner for Prince

Even they and the Fish are making moves and we are just sitting on our ass.

The NL East will have at most one “easy” team this year (Mets), and will be at it’s toughest ever this year

MikeTrain - January 3, 2012 reply

Somebody still has to win the games no matter how tough the opponents are, and none of the moves anyone has made has necessarily made them better than us.

JoelGuzman'sScout - January 4, 2012 reply

Starting Rotation

is still pretty suspect outside of Starsburg and, to a lesser extent, Gio.

love the language

and tone of the article. mucho.

ronjba - January 3, 2012 reply

It wasn't very long ago that JJ was a Cy Young frontrunner and 12-3 at the break... what happened to make him devalued so much?

MikeTrain - January 3, 2012 reply

He got a raise.

1. He got hurt…. again. And it’s then word “again” that’s giving teams pause.
2. The notion has always been there that he ‘outpitches his peripherals.’ For sabremetrics guys, that’s like somebody hitting .360 with a .450 BABIP or something… there’s a fear that such a performance is unsustainable.

My own counter to those arguments would be (1) he’s not yet had any trouble with his arm or shoulder… the legs should come around; and (2) you can’t argue that when he’s healthy, he’s been a consistent winner.

Nonetheless, until he can put in 200+ inning seasons, those questions will probably linger.

typo: “then” —> “that”

JoelGuzman'sScout - January 4, 2012 reply

but the injuries he's had (JJ) have never been associated with his arm/shoulder

so, Wren must be asking for a ton for him.

Your quote by Kiper is hilarious

The “experts” could not have been more wrong about Cam.

bbaker68 - January 3, 2012 reply

Haha thanks

And I 100% agree!

MikeTrain - January 4, 2012 via mobile reply

Didnt Wren leave the Orioles front office on bad terms?

Just a thought, but maybe there’s no love lost between the two sides.

ATLandUNC - January 3, 2012 reply

He keeps hiring guys from the O’s FO, so I doubt there’s any bad blood there.

Lennox - January 3, 2012 reply

Trades I would do with the Orioles...

1. Jurrjens and any of Spruill or lesser pitcher for A. Jones
2. Jurrjens and Pastornicky for JJ Hardy
3. Jurrjens, Pastornicky, Prado, and Hoover for A. Jones and Hardy

Trades that I would not do with the Orioles…
Anything involving the other SP candidates.

ryan c - January 3, 2012 reply

Is Hardy...

Available at all? Any notion that they’ll part with him?

I doubt it. They signed him to an extension last season—you usually don’t see teams deal guys they just locked up for a while.

Ivan the Great - January 3, 2012 reply

That’s what I thought.

Adam Jones, sure none of his stats are all that impressive after 4 years in MLB and he’s not cheap anymore, but for some reason the O’s think he’s worth a lot.

Lennox - January 3, 2012 reply

Player evaluation is part of the reason the Orioles are dead last every season.

kalesi - January 3, 2012 reply

Yeah...

They used to throw that Ripken fella out there every single day. Come on! Give the man a break.

Ok, the Orioles have finished dead last for a long time now. In large part, their owner is too involved. If he likes a player, that guy stays no matter how much the Orioles could get for him (Brian Roberts, who seemingly was a trade candidate every year for five years, comes to mind)

kalesi - January 3, 2012 reply

It was a joke...

I know the Orioles have been terrible for a long, long time.

Heck, the Pirates were dominant once!

JoelGuzman'sScout - January 4, 2012 reply

yeah, it had nothing at all to do with the fact that the Yankees and Red Sox combined salaries last year was

364 Million Dollars.

For the Record, that’s more than the following teams combined:

KC, Tampa, SD, Cleveland, Arizona, Miami AND Toronto.

Let that sink in for a second.

The salaries of those two teams are astronomical, but that isn’t the Orioles problem. Sure, they would be better in the NL West, but if Tampa can make the playoffs in the AL East then Baltimore can too.

kalesi - January 4, 2012 reply

Coco to A's... half the rumor offially dies.