Here is a snippit of a rumor from Ken Rosenthal regarding the Atlanta Braves and Baltimore Orioles:
[...] the Orioles and Braves have discussed a deal that included both Jurrjens and Prado, sources say.
Just the other day I was just telling the SB Nation Orioles blogger at Camden Chat that I didn't think the Braves and O's matched up well in a trade. I figured that Baltimore would want players who would be around longer than two years before they hit free agency. And I didn't see any players (or prospects) on the O's that the Braves would trade Jair Jurrjens or Martin Prado for, save for maybe Adam Jones, but I thought him to be off-limits.
The rumor does simply say that the teams have discussed a deal, and we don't know how far those discussions went. This could have been one of the many discussions about players that the Braves had with clubs at the Winter Meetings last week. I'd take that Adam Jones fella, though.
UPDATE (1pm):
This rumor was shot down fairly quickly by Jon Heyman:
Jim Bowden has an even worser (possibly worserest) idea at ESPN Insider. Here is what he proposed (he was just spit-ballin ideas):
Trade 3. Atlanta Braves and Baltimore Orioles
Braves acquire: OF Adam Jones, 3B Josh Bell
Orioles acquire: RHP Jair Jurrjens, 3B/OF Martin PradoIn this four-player trade idea the Braves get a much-needed right-handed bat and above-average defender in Jones to help balance out the lineup and solidify their outfield. This could mean moving Michael Bourn to left and allowing Jones to play center. Bell would give the Braves depth at third base and an option for the future since Chipper Jones can't play forever. The Orioles would immediately improve their starting rotation with the 25-year-old Jurrjens, who went 13-6 last year with an ERA of 2.96 and a WHIP of 1.22. Prado would be an upgrade at third base for the Orioles in the short term or give them an option at second base if Brian Roberts continues to spend time on the disabled list.
I guess that's why he's no longer a General Manager. That trade would be horrible for the Braves. Twitter was blowing up with all the reasons Adam Jones isn't that great, and all of the ways he's just like Jeff Francoeur. The above trade, and possibly any trade for Adam Jones, would not be an upgrade over what the Braves already have on their team. Also, the O's radically overvalue Adam Jones.
I'm kind of glad we're moving on from this rumor.
0 recs | 248 comments
Jones-Bourn-Heyward long-term? Droooooool.
ShawnG - December 14, 2011
Or they could just throw us Machado. (Yes I would trade those two for him)
ShawnG - December 14, 2011
Wren about to fleece his old team for Adam Jones?
leedawg - December 14, 2011
You mean, the all tools, no skill
low obp and poor defender Jones? Who’s getting fleeced?
Mr. Sanchez - December 14, 2011
If it's Jurrjens for Jones, don't tell me you wouldn't absolutely take it
Even if it’s Jurrjens and Prado for Jones and another guy, you still do it. Jones is great.
TurnerTheBurner - December 14, 2011
I would do Jurrjens for Jones straight up
but if its Jurrjens and Prado for Jones and another guy, that other guy better be a heck of a prospect.
thenightstallion - December 14, 2011
This.
king of games - December 14, 2011
That.
leedawg - December 14, 2011
And the other thing.
duwanis - December 14, 2011
or something...
Klemson Krash - December 15, 2011
Are we talking about the same Jones?
The one that Prado’s out-OPSed in every full year of his major-league career outside of last year, which most of us seem to think doesn’t actually represent Prado?
Granted, he could stand in for Bourn if we don’t lock him down, and he’s better in the OF than Prado… but I don’t know that he’s worth that much.
duwanis - December 14, 2011
lines of thought
he has pretty much progressed every year
hitting for more average
hitting more homers
he is only 26 and with 2 more years of team control
He also may be coming into his prime 26-28 yr seasons while we have him on arb.
He hit 25 HR last year, after 19 the two years before,
why couldn’t he hit 30 one of the next 2 years,
especially coming to a new league after hitting in the AL East
(though the NL east pitching is…)
he won a GG in CF a couple years ago,
doesn’t mean he is great,
but he can’t be a bad CF
and must be a great LF.
Lockdown OF with Bourn and Heyward.
insurance in CF – wouldn’t NEED a backup CF or CF for 2013
I could see the trade being for some of our minor leaguers,
what if Wren surprises us and deals Delgado? I won’t rule it out
I could also see the Orioles thinking JJ will be the best pitcher on the market
if they try and turn him half way through one of the next 2 seasons.
that it’s a risk they can take and will probably pay off for them
This is an interesting scenario, and I suspect for it to play out, some creative angles might be involved.
willlinn - December 14, 2011
more than anything though
this seems like something that won’t happen
willlinn - December 14, 2011
progressed every year – not really. He’s gotten better overall, but he hasn’t been getting better every year.
more average – this is false outside of last year, and also – who cares?
more homers – since he’s not the better overall hitter, I don’t care about this.
only 26 and 2 more years of team control – so he’s a year younger than Prado.
coming into his prime… – see above.
Everything between this and “insurance” is rambly and speculative…
insurance in CF – I noted this in my post.
duwanis - December 14, 2011
I think the basic thought would be we are trading for Prado with less OBP and more HR power. Of course you know the Braves love their HR hitters.
drumzalicious - December 14, 2011
and less "can back up 4 other positions"
sigh. I’m glad this isn’t happening.
duwanis - December 14, 2011
but do we really need that?
We have Sutton, Wilson, Hicks, plus whoever we get as a back up SS that could back up every INF position. Sure it’d be nice to have Prado over those guys but this team simply can’t pay more for one player on the bench than they do for the entire bench.
drumzalicious - December 14, 2011
Which is one of the best things about keeping Prado
…he doesn’t sit on the bench, he’s a starter. If we need a spell at 3B or 2B then we can put in one of our substitute outfielders and let Prado move in.
duwanis - December 14, 2011
I think the team is pretty set on finding another 25 HR bat to go in LF. If that happens then Prado is either traded or on the bench.
drumzalicious - December 14, 2011
If that happens then we might as well trade him
but this is the “why we shouldn’t replace Prado just because he doesn’t swing for the fences” conversation.
duwanis - December 14, 2011
There is a good chance that....
There is a good chance that the reason Prado has a down year was because he had to play many postitions throughout the year? Certainly the injuries effected this greatly, but I always thought a player was better to stick to one position. If he our starter in left, that is where he should play.
Trek - December 15, 2011
Not really
He played fewer positions this year than he did in 2010 – he only ever played LF and 3B, whereas in 2010 he hopped between 2B, 3B, and 1B.
duwanis - December 15, 2011
drumza...
….I know we have Sutton, Wilson, Hicks, etc., and we’ll certainly have someone who can back up 2B/3B other than Prado. However, they are all crappy hitters (hell, if you can play SS and don’t suck at the plate, you’ll be a starter) and our backup OF’s are much better hitters than they are. So, since Chipper likely will be out for a good amount of time, Prado’s ability to move to the infield gives us real value.
cavebird - December 15, 2011
tl;dr
but I do love how you almost always respond to your own comments
Mr. Sanchez - December 14, 2011
haven't seen him play much...
…but this sounds an awful lot like the making of another McLouth. Almost everything you point out as your reason to take him is why we went after Nasty. I would much rather package a trade of potential arms+JJ or Prado for a superstar like an Upton-esqe type of player. At this point I’m not loving the return(rumors) on either JJ or Prado.
toppleprone - December 14, 2011
And perhaps neither are the Braves...
…which is why no deal has been made. I agree completely that the rumors have us getting a pretty poor return.
cavebird - December 15, 2011
Just because Jones won a GG in center...
…does not mean that he is a good fielder or even that he can’t be bad. Remember that those jokers are the ones who once gave a GG to Rafael Palmeiro in a season where Palmeiro played 20 games at first base and the rest as a DH. Jones defensive numbers for his GG season were not very good.
Not sure how Jones has progressed every year either. Here are his batting averages the four years he’s been in the bigs: .270, .277, .284, .280. Here are the slugging percentages: .400, .457, .440, .466. Here are the OBP’s: .311, .335, .325, .319. Finally, here are the BB%’s: 4.5%, 6.9%, 3.7%, 4.7%.
Honestly, those walk numbers are so abysmal, I doubt he can make much progress as a hitter unless they improve significantly.
cavebird - December 15, 2011
His walks may not improve..
but it’s his power that is intriguing. A player does not need to have a high OBP to be valuable. It just helps.
And rather than looking at these components of his offense which leave out large parts of the story, why not use wRC+? It shows a player who has indeed improved.
YakuzaFro - December 15, 2011
You lost me...
“A player does not need to have a high OBP to be valuable. It just helps.”
with that comment…
jwrocks - December 15, 2011
How so?
Why is a high OBP necessary to be a good hitter, any more than a high slugging percentage?
2011 OBP/wRC+
J.J. Hardy: .310/113
Nelson Cruz: .312/116
Dan Uggla: .311/109
Just a few examples of guys with below league average OBP with above league average production.
YakuzaFro - December 15, 2011
Wait, did you just say Jones is great? You talking about Adam Jones of the Orioles? Because if you are, you lost some credibility with that statement…
rockybull - December 14, 2011
.275/.319/.437
I’ll pass.
kauf67 - December 14, 2011
Fine I won't tell you what you already know
we must have different meanings for the term “great”, because an average at best glove, with a sub .800 ops doesn’t bring that word up from me.
Mr. Sanchez - December 14, 2011
I would probably bump that up to sub .900 OPS personally.
king of games - December 14, 2011
Well, if you can't top .800, you can't top .900 either, yeah, but
look at his numbers. I’ll wait until you point out a single season where he had an ops greater than .800.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jonesad01.shtml
Mr. Sanchez - December 14, 2011
Ok, rephrase:
He could be great. He would be a great acquisition for the club.
Certainly he has some progressing to do, but he has all the tools.
Clearly our GM thinks differently, and I’m ok with that. If it were Jones for Jurrjens, I probably would do it, but then again I’m not a GM.
TurnerTheBurner - December 14, 2011
After this long in the bigs
that “could be” is apparently gonna last forever.
Mr. Sanchez - December 14, 2011
How weird… There’s only one guy on their 40 man that I’d want. And we’d have to give up a ton to get him if they’d even listen.
I’m thinking this is bunk.
Fatvirus - December 14, 2011
There's no writer I'd trust more to report about the Orioles than Rosenthal.
Which is really the only reason I won’t brush this off. If FW does pull that off, Liberty should definitely just go ahead and hand him a bonus for $Texas.
Torgo's Executive Powder - December 14, 2011
JJ HARDY
JJ Hardy JJ Hardy JJ Hardy JJ Hardy JJ Hardy JJ Hardy JJ Hardy JJ Hardy JJ Hardy!
another simpsons avatar - December 14, 2011
I’d be ecstatic if we could land Hardy + prospects.
TheMattHatter - December 14, 2011
Didn’t they just extend him this past summer?
michaeldlee1480 - December 14, 2011
If Jones is the target
is there any concern with his defense? The stick looks good but alot of negative numbers concerning his UZR. And if Prado is one of the trade pieces doesn’t this put us in the same scenario we’ve seen already concerning Prado. That being, we may get a somewhat better bat but the flipside is we get a player confined to an outfield position only & lose the versatility Prado gives?
(Disclaimer: Still trying to get a grasp on UZR. From what I’ve read on FanGraphs it comes across to me as something of an “ify” kind of stat that may not be a good indicator of a players performance.)
adc62 - December 14, 2011
This
I hate UZR, and DRS. They aren’t good statistics at all
carloscollazo06 - December 14, 2011
Would you rather use fielding percentage?
Because I assure you, that’s worse.
duwanis - December 14, 2011
UZR isn’t great, but it is the best we have. It sure beats the eye test and fielding percentage, etc. Bowden’s comment that getting Jones would move Bourn to left is absurd; Bourn is a much better fielder. Finally, the stick isn’t as good as Prado, either.
cavebird - December 15, 2011
Career rates
Jeff Francoeur: 5.0 BB%, 17.7 K%
Adam Jones: 4.8 BB%, 19.7 K%
This doesn’t tell the whole story, but his approach is terrible. I really don’t like the idea of adding a free swinger.
ducheneaux13 - December 14, 2011
off limits?
New to this discussion, but why? 2 years of Adam Jones seems worth 2 of Jurrjens and 2 of Prado to me — at least from the Orioles standpoint.
Maybe we keep Prado and add a minor league P not in the top level? That would make more sense to me, from what I know.
someguy1 - December 14, 2011
Losing Marteeeeen will be tough for me...
I have grown attached to the hustle and versatility.
TiderBlaze10 - December 14, 2011
yes!!!
I hope its Jones. Although I’d rather deal just J.J. and some prospects and keep Prado in a deal for a CF prospect.
drumzalicious - December 14, 2011 via mobile
Why all the Adam Jones love?
As noted above, he walks less than Franceour, and he has a career OBP of .319. His centerfield defense is poor. Basically, he isn’t as good of a hitter as Prado, he isn’t as versatile, and he has two years of team control left, just like Prado. I don’t know if I would do Prado for Jones straight up, noless with Jurrjens involved.
cavebird - December 14, 2011
This.
Not really a fan.
king of games - December 14, 2011
I’ll just wait for this rumor to blow over… the best news (IMO) would be if it got the Rockies moving. They have much better outfield trade candidates for us.
carpengui - December 14, 2011
Who?
Seth Smith is a little too left handed. The kids aren’t sure things, and Fowler is unavailable. :( Now, if you mean this might make Fowler available, then we might be on the same page.
cavebird - December 14, 2011
Smith would be a piece, but not the main dish. I expect we would use him in a Diaz-Smith LF platoon (.300 vs. RHP). I caught some info that he’s an excellent PH, too, but I’m having trouble finding data now to prove that.
The annoying part – looking at his 2011 splits – is the set of numbers for ‘high leverage’ and ‘men in scoring position’. Batting averages of .216 and .230, respectively. He’s at .304 with the bases empty, and .259 with a runner on. ‘High leverage’ numbers were abysmal in 2009-2010, by the way. But use him vs. RHP exclusively, and he’s probably a decent contributor.
Enough about that. The big question is who else we could pry away from them. They already have Blackmon, Smith, Fowler, and Cargo. Spilborghs and Eric Young in a pinch. Tim Wheeler is the Next Big Thing. One would think that they have no need for another OF of any kind… yet they are hard after Cuddyer or now Beltran.
Neither of these FA’s will replace Fowler… Cargo is going nowhere. I have seen some info recently suggesting that they are trying not to get a 3B guy who would block Arenado, so that tells me he’s unavailable – else they would have been in on Aramis Ramirez. SO: if they land one of those FA’s, 2 of Smith (likely), Blackmon and Wheeler (my choice) would be available… and they’d still have a pretty formidable outfield.
carpengui - December 14, 2011
If they take the short-sighted view of wanting an immediate return to the playoffs
and are willing to give up Arenado in a deal for Prado and JJ, then I think that’s something we need to seriously consider. If we can get a Smith+Wheeler+Arenado package, it would be worth it, even if we had to throw in one other piece in addition to Prado+JJ.
If they play the long game, and are dedicated to Arenado as their 3B in 2013-14, then we should ask for nothing less than Smith and Wheeler for Prado. If they are unwilling to make that deal, we should just walk away, and we would be content with Prado and JJ.
leedawg - December 14, 2011
Your list of Rockies' OF is out of date.
Ryan Spilbourghs was non-tendered.
cavebird - December 15, 2011
You could be onto something there with the Rockies
They are reportedly one of the teams actively pursuing Carlos Beltran, and would lose some leverage in trades if they sign him before they move someone like Seth Smith. This could be a ploy by Wren to make the Rockies give into the package we want for either Prado, JJ, or both. Hopefully its at least Wheeler, and possibly Arenado, though they Rockies have to be reluctant to deal the latter with all the troubles they’ve had at 3B the past few seasons.
leedawg - December 14, 2011
yeah – in many fewer words than I did above.
carpengui - December 14, 2011
I was scrolling down the page just waiting for someone to say this. I don’t understand why everyone loves him.
Alex H - December 14, 2011 via mobile
I wouldnt deal Prado and J.J. for him either however if they’d take a couple of B prospects for him then I’d take him. His defense isn’t a concern because he would most likely be in LF. He’d also give us the ability to not have to sign another OF to back up CF because he could do it if we really needed him to.
drumzalicious - December 14, 2011
For the life of me, I can’t figure out why Baltimore would make him untouchable. He seems like exactly the type of player you would want to unload for a decent haul while he still has the “potential” tag.
king of games - December 14, 2011
I'd be up for that I suppose
Something along the lines to the package we gave up for Bourn. The Orioles always seem like they need pitching
leedawg - December 14, 2011
this
Braves24 - December 14, 2011
they have to be throwing in some prospects
maybe Josh Bell, maybe multiple prospects including Xavier Avery?
Mr. Sanchez - December 14, 2011
Oof.
Not sure about Josh Bell. His poor walk percentage and poor contact rates scream bust to me.
cavebird - December 15, 2011
People tend to get very hung up on OBP, perhaps as a result of needing to pound Moneyball into people’s heads (or having it pounded into their own).
While getting on base is obviously important and Jones would be a better player if he walked more, we have stats that give us a much better idea of what a hitter provides. Defaulting to “he doesn’t walk enough” is as bad as dismissing a hitter because he “strikes out too much.”
Over the last three years, Jones’ has a 105 wRC+. That’s not easy to get from a center fielder. I would not trade Prado for him, but I would absolutely trade Jurrjens.
YakuzaFro - December 15, 2011
Yes
But when having even a respectable OBP is very dependent on BABIP, one tough year can be really tough. See Prado, Martin.
I’d much rather have a guy like Colby Rasmus (comparable hitter by the numbers) than an Adam Jones because he needs fewer things to go right. If he posts even a fairly average BABIP and cuts the strike-outs down just a tick, he can post a 5 WAR season. For a guy like Adam Jones to have a 5 WAR season, a lot of things have to go right. He needs to walk a little more than normal, he needs play really good defense, he needs to keep the BABIP up, and he needs to put up good power numbers.
Bronn - December 15, 2011
A BABIP dip can happen to anyone, and their overall value will be affected in a similar way. A guy who walks a lot isn’t any less affected by a low BABIP than a guy who doesn’t, unless there’s a minimum OBP someone must maintain to be considered a good hitter (there isn’t).
YakuzaFro - December 15, 2011
Isn’t that mathematically not true? Or am I not understanding your point? I think it’s the latter, but I just want to clarify.
If you assume two players have the same number of plate appearances, but one walks 20% of the time and one walks 10% of the time, then isn’t a drop-off in BABIP for whatever reason going to harm the latter player much more because a greater proportion of his PAs that aren’t walks are going to result in outs?
500 PAs * 0.8 = 400 ABs. Assuming a BABIP fall from .300 to .250 (and 0% K rate just for ease of calculation) = 20 (400 * 0.3 = 120; 400* 0.25 = 100) more outs made over the course of the season that otherwise would’ve been hits. Meanwhile, 500 PAs * 0.9 = 450 ABs. Assuming the same BABIP fall, 22.5 (450 * 0.3 = 135; 450 * 0.25 = 112.5) more outs made over the course of the season that otherwise would’ve been hits.
So the guy that walks more is affected less by a negative fluctuation in BABIP, right?
Ivan the Great - December 15, 2011
All other things being equal, the guy who walks more is already going to be more valuable. Assuming their BABIP drop is the same, the value they lose (as a percentage) is going to be the same.
YakuzaFro - December 15, 2011
That's not true.
A player that walks more is going to be putting less balls in play, so a similar drop in BABIP is going to affect fewer of his at-bats. That’s what Ivan demonstrated mathematically above.
duwanis - December 15, 2011
You're right.
I glossed over the numbers. Too many adult beverages this evenin’.
YakuzaFro - December 15, 2011
Of course, also
Ivan neglected K rate. A high K rate will also reduce the number of balls in play; you could have a situation where player A walks 30% of the time and strikes out 5% of the time, and player B walks 20% of the time and strikes out 15% of the time. In this case they’d both be affected the exact same way by a similar drop in BABIP, because each player puts the ball in play for 65% of his ABs.
I’d be curious to see if there’s much of a correlation between K% and BB%. Do guys that walk more also tend to strike out more because they’re waiting on an iffy pitch? Do guys that walk less tend to strike out less because they’re better at just making contact? Obviously there are exceptions (guys that walk a lot and don’t strike out much, either) but at large there may be some trends to either amplify or nullify what we’ve been talking about.
duwanis - December 15, 2011
Bah, leaving out for ease of calculation is not the same as neglecting!
In any case, to answer your question using a quick-and-dirty pull from FG for just 2011, (might be players that qualified for batting title only, too), I didn’t see much of a correlation between K% and BB%. The Pearson’s R was pretty low at about 0.25, though whatever relationship there is is definitely positive.
My gut seems to be that guys that walk more tend to strike out less because walking more indicates that you are less likely swing at pitches you are likely to miss out of the zone, especially in deep counts, but we’d need to look at how walk rate correlations with some O-swing% and Z-swing% to really get at it. Let’s make Jacob do it…
Ivan the Great - December 15, 2011
Consciously neglecting is still neglecting. ;)
I tried to summon Jacob the other day and it didn’t work. Maybe he’ll grace us with his presence here…
duwanis - December 15, 2011
Jones for Jurrjens is fine, but...
…where would he play? The basic problem with Jones, given the overall stats (and yes OBP is a big part of it, that is his major area of concern) is not as good a hitter as Prado. Yet, if we trade for him, we’ll start him over Prado. That does concern me. (Of course, the Orioles think so highly of him, it hardly matters, we aren’t trading for him at that price.)
And to answer your other post; yes there is a minimum OBP that a player needs to be good. Obviously, if it gets low enough (.250, etc.) the player is just a crappy hitter.
To answer other people’s posts: not too concerned about the BABIP—-remember, hitters can control their’s, unlike pitchers. As for Rasmus, he’s an interesting possibility if available, but he’s left-handed and really struggles against lefties, which makes him less of a fit.
cavebird - December 15, 2011
If a player has an OBP of .250 but a slugging percentage of .600 (I don’t know if that’s mathematically possible, but humor me), then a .250 OBP might not be crippling. You can’t look at JUST the OBP of a player and assume they’re not worth anything. OBP is no longer a market inefficiency, so a rigid adherence to high OBP players isn’t necessarily beneficial.
YakuzaFro - December 15, 2011
That's *technically* possible
but you’d be talking about a guy who almost never hits singles. It’s entirely unrealistic.
OBP isn’t a great end-all-be-all statistic, to be sure, and I wouldn’t want to solely rely on that for comparison’s sake… but .250 is pretty darn crappy. If a guy can’t manage to get on base more than once every four at-bats, he’s not a good hitter.
duwanis - December 15, 2011
It’s unrealistic but it points out the flaw in thinking someone MUST have a certain OBP to be a valuable hitter.
YakuzaFro - December 15, 2011
I don't think it does.
I mean, you could have a .200 OBP and an .800 SLG – just hit 1 HR every 5 at-bats. You’d hit about 100 HRs over the course of the year, which is huge, right? Obviously that would be a valuable hitter.
But that’s unrealistic, just like your above scenario. Nobody can do that. It’s an incredibly safe assumption that if you can’t even OBP .300, you’re not really bringing a lot to the plate.
duwanis - December 15, 2011
Is our threshold for an “acceptable” OBP at .300 then? If so, surely Adam Jones is in the clear.
YakuzaFro - December 15, 2011
I'm not sure what we're arguing about
so I’m just going to go back to this:
It’s not really about a threshold, because we’re not trying to judge a player’s worth using only his OBP. Just like, yes, errors are a bad way to measure defensive prowess, and you shouldn’t look only at a player’s error totals to determine how good they are in the field – but if they’ve got 40 errors in a season, it’s incredibly likely that they’re just bad. OBP can work the same way (as can AVG, SLG, or anything else – there’s always some point at which you go “Eww. That’s horrible.”).
The original argument appears to be about whether or not the fact that his walk rate sucks is a problem, which we already talked about: it is, in the sense that his barely-above-average offensive production (which is, yes, good for CF) could plummet hard if he has a bad/unlucky year at the plate.
duwanis - December 15, 2011
My argument was basically that the “doesn’t walk, sucks” response I’ve been seeing around (not from you) is off base. That’s all.
YakuzaFro - December 15, 2011
Agreed
“Doesn’t walk, risky” is probably a better assessment. Guys that walk more are far more likely to have stable offensive production.
duwanis - December 15, 2011
One more thing... related to this DO'B tweet from last night
Now I understand this to mean (a) Jurrjens knee issue; and (b) that the BRAVES would have to kick in more to pry AJones from Baltimore. That said…
I think Dave O’Brien was having a few adult beverages with his writer buddies last night, for I believe that a JJ-for-Jones trade straight up is the most I would want to every consider giving up for him. Both are on the same free agency schedule, and both have some performance questions. In fact, I gotta believe that the only reason Baltimore would consider giving him up at all would be because they are souring on him long-term… yes, in a very similar manner as we did with Francoeur. If Jones were a pitcher, I’d bet we’d be saying “yes, he wins, but his peripherals are suspect.”
I believe he’s a better fielder if you stick him in LF — that would help — but as has been pointed out already, he badly needs a little plate discipline, which I don’t see at any point in his entire Major League career.
carpengui - December 14, 2011
Nick markakis
Whats his deal? Looks like his worst season is a .351 OBP with 45 XBHs. He has had some great OBP seasons with flashes of HR power and generally hits 60+ XBHs per season. And at 28 he is in his prime. This is the guy we want IMO. Is he not available?
Alex H - December 14, 2011 via mobile
He’s REAAAALLY expensive. I can’t remember specifics, but he’s getting something insane like $12MM a year for the next 4.
Fatvirus - December 14, 2011
That’s not really expensive for his level of production.
king of games - December 14, 2011
I meant it in a “Much more than we’re willing to pay”
Especially condsidering that his numbers aer pretty close to the guy we currently have in left. We’d be paying twice as much for the same player.
Fatvirus - December 14, 2011
Even at 15 mil
For 3 more years he seems like a pretty damn good investment. Doesnt seem like he is more than we want to spend if we get JJ and Prado off the books. Has had a .400 OBP season where he drew 99 walks. 3 seasons of 18+ HR. 4 seasons with 40+ doubles. I’m not great at evaluating trades so stop me if I’m wrong, but giving up prado JJ Simmons and a B level pitching prospect for Markakis and Machado seems like a good deal for us. Gets us the #2 hitter we want and a long term shortstop.
Alex H - December 14, 2011 via mobile
the thing is
we dont have 15 mil a year to dish out.
I supposed trading Prado and J.J. offsets some of the money. Then with Lowe’s money coming off the books next year it COULD work but we also have to worry about raises to McCann, Hanson, and hopefully keeping Bourn around.
I’d love to have him I just don’t know that we can afford him.
drumzalicious - December 14, 2011
The O’s locked him up long term maybe two years ago.
I’d trade JJ + prospect for Jones and let Prado go back to his reserve role.
kalesi - December 14, 2011
So let me get this straight here. You are willing to give up a good SP, plus a prospect for Jones, put him in LF, and make Prado (who is a better overall hitter than Jones) and relegate him to reserve role. Awesome, so we in fact hurt our 2012 team, nice.
rockybull - December 14, 2011
I'm just gonna say pass altogether on the O's.
I just don’t see a match, this will blow over.
jdmarine - December 14, 2011
Jon Heyman
leedawg - December 14, 2011
Orioles apparently stupid then.
king of games - December 14, 2011
I really don’t understand that. Are we all wearing the same blinders or are they?
carpengui - December 14, 2011
I don't take this as
“No, we wouldn’t consider it.” I take it as, “No, that rumor is way off base.”
J Tadpole - December 14, 2011
if anything
it confirms what I already thought in that there is no way they would deal him for Jurrjens. They want young cost controlled players.
drumzalicious - December 14, 2011
If Wren trades JJ/Prado for Jones
he’ll be the one getting a fleece for Christmas. Jones is a decent player, but not the superstar he’s made out to be. Not even close.
thenightstallion - December 14, 2011
I seriously doubt Wren would be stupid enough to make that trade.
king of games - December 14, 2011
Hell Prado is a better overall hitter than Jones is. That would absolutely be retarded dealing Prado for Jones. Adam Jones doesn’t make us a better team.
rockybull - December 14, 2011
The word among O's fans is that it's Markakis....
and not Jones that they want to move.
TomahawkGuy - December 14, 2011
Interesting, given this...
carpengui - December 14, 2011
They could be looking to trade Markakis to make a run at Fielder.
king of games - December 14, 2011
Yeah, but we have no business at all in going after him
… since the performance equivalent already wears #14 in our lineup and is one-third the price.
carpengui - December 14, 2011
All of this.
Only guy I’d want from the O’s is machado, and we all know that’s not happening.
kauf67 - December 14, 2011
I had a dog and his name was BINGO.
Fatvirus - December 14, 2011
I can get on board a Jurrjens + Prado for Markakis and a prospect. We’d need to sign a SS/3B combo like Punto, but I keep reading he’s a target too. The money would pretty much work.
bighop - December 14, 2011
Player A: .307/.350/.459/.809. 40dbles,15HR, 40BB, 86K (651 PA).
Player B: .297/.370/.436/.805. 45dbles, 12HR, 73BB, 93K (709 PA).
That’s the 2010 stat lines of Prado (~$4.4m in 2012) and Markakis ($12m in 2012) .
carpengui - December 14, 2011
Very similar
But we’d have an OF for the next 3 years and room for one of the young pitchers, and hopefully a prospect that could shore up the farm offensively. I think Markakis is a very long shot, but he’s a good player, I’d be glad to have him.
bighop - December 14, 2011
But he's going to eat up $44M
and that’s a minimum. I’d be glad to have him if he were going to be cheaper, but as it stands I don’t see any reason to go out of our way for him.
duwanis - December 14, 2011
$12M in 2012
$15M in 2013
$15M in 2014
$17.5M option for 2015
Expensive but doable with JJ and Prado’s salaries going away, then Chipper’s and/or Hudson’s after 2012. (Certainly not definite there).
bighop - December 14, 2011
Sure
“doable” in this case implies serious negative impact on our ability to offer extensions to McCann and Bourn, as well as anything we might want to do to lock down any of our young talent (Heyward, Freeman, Kimbrel, Hanson) or make acquisitions to help with future needs (3B and SS are far from decided positions at this point).
duwanis - December 14, 2011
Realistically, Bourn isn’t signing an extension and Hanson will likely be traded next year.
king of games - December 14, 2011
agree on the first part, completely disagree on the second
leedawg - December 14, 2011
You still have the rest to deal with
and CF is a problem whether Bourn signs an extension or not, unless you plan to move Markakis over (9 games there in his career leads me to think that’s not a great idea).
Markakis is better than Prado, sure, but I don’t think he’s better enough to constitute hamstringing ourselves on salary like that.
duwanis - December 14, 2011
But you don’t have to to part with either JJ and Prado to get that performance! It’s not a matter of ‘doable’ – it’s a matter of ‘why even consider doing it at all’ when you’ve already got the same thing at 1/3rd the price?
carpengui - December 14, 2011
I’m so exasperated I can’t type a coherent sentence: “…you don’t have to part with either JJ or Prado…” is what that should have been.
carpengui - December 14, 2011
don’t you think the Orioles would eat some of that remaining money?
skinnere - December 14, 2011
Peter Angelos? Nah, not so much history of doing so.
carpengui - December 14, 2011
To be fair
Thats one arbitrary season. I agree that the value you get out of Prado is better, but Markakis is the better player and if we can afford his contract, get a long term SS out of it, and clear a spot for our young pitchers, it’s worth it. And as long as we are showing stat lines.
The last number is .wOBA
Career
Prado: .293/.341/.434/.337
Markakis: .295/.365/.458/.356
Best season
Prado: .307/.358/.464/.355
Markakis: .306/.406/.491/.389
Worst season
Prado: .260/.302/.385/.296
Markakis: .284/.351/.406/.334
Alex H - December 14, 2011 via mobile
If you throw out Prado’s 2011 (and we all know what happened there), then both players are remarkably consistent, so that’s why (a) I chose 2010 for the comparison, and (b) I thought only a single recent year was good enough to make the point without suffering from the SSS plight.
And no, we can’t afford him.
carpengui - December 14, 2011
Careful about hedging too much
How consistent can a guy be when he’s played just 3.5 seasons, and you have to throw out one FULL season in order to make the claim that he’s consistent?
Bronn - December 14, 2011
fair point – but I’d much rather go with that that to use a mid-rotation pitcher AND Prado to get (probably at best) a 50 point OPS upgrade… and pay a lot more for the privilege of doing so.
carpengui - December 14, 2011
Fair
Just disagree with someone making the assessment that Prado is just as good as Markakis. Markakis is better, and fairly consistent in his own right.
Bronn - December 14, 2011
agreed
skinnere - December 14, 2011
Well, my main point is that all through this off-season — I think I can make this broad/sweeping statement — we’ve been saying “Hang on to Prado unless you can acquire a guy who gives you a pronounced upgrade in offense.”
I don’t believe Markakis (who I do like) fits that requirement. And he’d be the highest salaried guy on the team in 2013.
carpengui - December 14, 2011
If it took something like Prado + Simmons to get Markakis
I would do that. That’s an instant, easy upgrade to our offense, and Markakis has the upside to have a pretty significant difference. Unfortunately, it would take more than that, so it’s not realistic. But acting like it’s not a clear enough upgrade to be worth trading, that’s very debatable.
Bronn - December 14, 2011
Even with the $$?
duwanis - December 14, 2011
I think so
Though the long term cost isn’t all that appealing. $15 million for 2013 and 2014 might be enough to turn me off. I’d have to think about it really long and hard.
Bronn - December 14, 2011
That’s why if I were gonna spend that kinda money, I’d go for Beltran — now there’s an offensive upgrade (excepting every 5th year – next downer due in 2015).
carpengui - December 14, 2011
I'd like to think Wren is at least in contact with Beltran's agents
Eventually, Beltran is going to have to realize that teams aren’t going to pay for him the pricetag he thinks he’s worth, and when it comes back down, I’d love to know the Braves at least offered him something like 2 years, $18 million.
Bronn - December 14, 2011
this.
carpengui - December 14, 2011
that
leedawg - December 14, 2011
and the other thing.
duwanis - December 14, 2011
Beltran?
He’s 6 years older and has bad legs. You would want to throw that kind of money at him and he could potentially miss a ton of time? At least Markakis isn’t nearly as big of a risk for that investment. I suppose if we knew Beltran would have more seasons like 2011 where he played 140 games with great stats, then yes. But I think we would have to go with an incentives based contract.
Alex H - December 14, 2011 via mobile
I really don’t think his legs are as bad as everyone’s making them out to be. He might not be an elite CFer any more, but that doesn’t make him bad or washed up.
king of games - December 14, 2011
If that's true
If there is reason to believe his legs are ok then I agree that Beltran for a few years would be better. But we would still have to unload JJ and prado to clear up budget room. So we would have to get back on the topic of trading them for a CF and/or SS prospect.
Alex H - December 14, 2011 via mobile
carpengui...
…you hit that right on the head. Why take the extra salary to get a minimal upgrade and less positional flexibility?
cavebird - December 15, 2011
He convinced me, I shut up about Markakis after reading his argument.
bighop - December 15, 2011
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing when I looked at that.
Bronn - December 14, 2011
You did kind of compare Prado's best year
Against a fairly average year for Markakis. He’s got more upside as a hitter than Prado does-he was a 6 WAR player, once.
Bronn - December 14, 2011
But he has never shown anything near that power since
Mr. Sanchez - December 14, 2011
Mindzak wrote this earlier...
When asked about Markakis, Duquette stated, “I like Markakis. He’s a very popular player with our fans.” I’m pretty sure he’s not 100% in love with Markakis and what he brings to the team. Duquette also went on to say, “How many home runs did he hit last year? Is that what you want from a corner outfielder?” Does this mean Markakis is in possible trade talks?
TomahawkGuy - December 14, 2011
Yes please.
king of games - December 14, 2011
That's what I'm saying!
TomahawkGuy - December 14, 2011
He would be a solid #2 hitter
We would be extremely left-handed at the top of the order with Bourn, Markakis, Chipper, McCann, but I suppose there are worse things
leedawg - December 14, 2011
And Jed Lowrie just got traded….to the Astros.
king of games - December 14, 2011
For a reliever.
king of games - December 14, 2011
THAT is all it took to get him?
Seriously, why were the Braves not in on that?
Bronn - December 14, 2011
Because...
Apparently…
We’re not in on anything right now.
Like I said below, we’ve done nothing but let players leave.
Nothing.
Even the Atlanta Hawks have done more…and that’s actually an insult.
Jman781 - December 14, 2011
Wren must be all drunk on egg nog right now- not considering any baseball moves til after new year's
leedawg - December 14, 2011
Honestly
I’d rather him do nothing than make any of these rumors we’ve seen come true. Everything we’ve been linked to so far has been pretty meh.
And we grabbed Fish off the rule 5, but that’s not really something to write home about.
duwanis - December 14, 2011
Wren must have confused the Rule 5 draft with a lunch gathering
leedawg - December 14, 2011
+1
JKowalek - December 14, 2011
Though he could have moved on Lowrie
Apparently it doesn’t even take a reliever as good as Jonny Venters to get a starting shortstop. Which is that irritates me. I thought anyone getting Lowrie from the Sox was going to have to overpay.
Seriously, why didn’t we make that deal? We’ve got 3 relievers all better than Melancon, and cheaper.
Bronn - December 14, 2011
No clue.
Seems stupid, considering how many teams were linked to him, that Boston wouldn’t have been driving the price higher than that.
duwanis - December 14, 2011
It’s the same thing that usuallyhappens, we either have no money to spend or we’re saving up all the money we do looking for that one “HR” addition big RH power bat in LF on a deal we can afford, and pass up on smaller pieces that could have helped us along the way, then we end up adding a FUGA..
Lennox - December 14, 2011
On the bright side, we usually had to do that for both LF and 1B, now it’s just LF.
king of games - December 14, 2011
Agree.
We shouldn’t make bad moves.
Wren, however, is free to make smart moves, like trading a reliever for a decent player like Lowrie…
Personally, I want Prado to stay, and I see the argument for keeping JJ with Hanson’s shoulder iffy.
That said—and this is my opinion—we need a starting SS. Pastornicky may be great, but who knows if he’s ready?
Jman781 - December 14, 2011
The Atlanta Braves organization I would think.
king of games - December 14, 2011
His success at the MLB level
is unproven.
No one knows, including the Braves.
Jman781 - December 14, 2011
The Braves have shown fairly regularly the past few years that they know when a guy is ready for the jump. Can’t think of anyone that came up and straight up failed recently.
king of games - December 14, 2011
Agree...
And, like I said above, who knows?
I would feel much better with a proven SS backing him up.
Right now, who’s Pastornicky’s replacement? In more dire terms, what if Pastornicky gets injured? What then?
Going to camp with one SS doesn’t make any sense. Thus, we NEED a SS; it’s not an option to ignore this.
Jman781 - December 14, 2011
This is why you sign Jack Wilson for 1 yr/$1.5mil
Broccoman - December 14, 2011
3 straight years of sub .600 OPS, surely we can do better than Jack Wilson.
bighop - December 14, 2011
that's what concerns me if we sign an all-glove guy like Jack Wilson
What if Pastornicky struggles at the plate? We’ll have 2 guys that are black holes at SS
leedawg - December 14, 2011
at least one...
we know is a stud defensively…there really just isn’t much else out on the free agent market that seems better, IMO.
jwrocks - December 14, 2011
We are looking for a backup SS...
…whoever we get, if they hit at all, they’ll be poor defensively because if they could hit some and play solid defense, they’d be starting somewhere (like for us!).
cavebird - December 15, 2011
I mean
I would say the Braves have done things like call up Julio Teheran arguably earlier than they should have. Or, I could talk about how they thought Jo-Jo Reyes would be a good starter for them…many times they tried him. Or Chuck James. Or when they kept using Jeff Francoeur for years in RF while he was being pretty sucky.
So, it isn’t like they’re omniscient.
Bronn - December 14, 2011
None of that occurred in the last few years though (except JT, and that’s arguable).
king of games - December 14, 2011
everyone
in their rookie season is ML unproven. Thats when a team determines if one is ready or not
JKowalek - December 14, 2011
And if they're wrong
Do they just avoid having a back-up plan because that might “jinx” it? We haven’t even signed someone who might be a decent back-up shortstop.
And frankly, I’d rather have someone who maybe stinks, but is good enough for us to start for a month, so we can see if TP does well into May before we call him up. He’s only got a month’s worth of success at AAA to date. I’d feel better if the team wasn’t just banking on using him sink-or-swim.
Bronn - December 14, 2011
Especially if they were going to throw in a right handed pitcher just because.
Bronn - December 14, 2011
I really don't think Wren would've passed that deal up
which makes me think something funny happened. Maybe the BoSox are really high on Melancon, and jumped on it without even playing the field. I dunno.
duwanis - December 14, 2011
But why wasn't he already talking to them, just to feel things out?
I mean, it’s one thing to not pull the trigger on a move, but if he’s not even discussing possible options…then what IS he doing?
Bronn - December 14, 2011
Maybe...
He doesn’t like Lowrie, so it wasn’t even considered?
I am curious, too.
Like duwanis said, maybe the BoSox really love Melancon…
Jman781 - December 14, 2011
Knowing Wren
I have a hard time believing that he wasn’t at least inquiring.
Same goes for every other team that needs a shortstop and can’t afford Rollins.
That’s why I think there was something else going here.
duwanis - December 14, 2011
But, I mean....
If he’s talking to them, and their price is, “We really want a closer,” why isn’t he coming back with, “Well, duh, we’ve got 3 guys who could closer for a lot of teams, and maybe a fourth.”
Sox sent back Kyle Weiland AND Lowrie for Melancon. What would they have sent back for Jonny Venters?
Bronn - December 14, 2011
I have no idea.
All I can think is that one of the following is true:
1) Wren didn’t inquire.
2) Wren inquired and the answer was vague, overreaching, or otherwise more than “We really want a closer.”
3) Wren inquired and the answer was “We really want a closer” and Wren laughed at them for daring to ask about his incredibly deep pool of relief pitchers.
Of the above, I find #3 the least likely.
duwanis - December 14, 2011
jaw dropping
carpengui - December 14, 2011
Krash is gonna be pissed.
king of games - December 14, 2011
Yeah, I might be, too.
carpengui - December 14, 2011
Why?
It’s not like we’re doing anything.
I don’t think we’ve even made a minor signing yet.
I get it; there’s plenty of time. But, seriously, why haven’t we done a darn thing? All we get are dumb Adam Jones rumors.
My point: we’re obviously sitting on our hands. Thus, my jaw will drop if we do anything at this point.
Krash wanted us to get Lowrie, but we’re in a state of inaction right now. Thus, a trade for him was impossible.
Jman781 - December 14, 2011
I wasn't big on the "We need Jed Lowrie," rumors
Because I thought it would be really hard to get him from the Red Sox. But they trade him AND another piece for…Mark Melancon?
Bronn - December 14, 2011
As I said in the rosterbation thread, we probably have at least a dozen ML-ready relievers that are as good or better than Melancon.
king of games - December 14, 2011
Lowrie’s hurt all the time and not even an average glove. Pass.
Fatvirus - December 14, 2011
He’s a better backup SS than anythone else on the market at the moment. Especially at the cost of a middling reliever.
king of games - December 14, 2011
Uhmm
Just in 2010, he was worth 2 WAR (re: league average) in about a third of a season. Even if he’s hurt, he could be valuable for us as a starter while we wait to see if Pastornicky is ready. More valuable than one relief pitcher, easily.
Bronn - December 14, 2011
where is my banhammer.
Klemson Krash - December 15, 2011
I almost broke my phone when my friend text that to me...
If I had FW’s number, I would have told him some very very mean things… Not at all christmasy or PC… In fact, it would have probably resulted in a lifetime ban from all things Braves… but alas, I slept and now I just think we need to fleece the Astro’s again…. Just because he moved doesn’t mean i want him any less… Now he’s with a team that doesn’t even have a use for him other than to hold him back from a championship team…
but really… MELANCON… Why not just through a quadrapalegic in there too and maybe a flaming sack o’ poo… ok, steps away from the keyboard… must not revisit the trade.
Klemson Krash - December 15, 2011
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/12/astros-acquire-kyle-weiland.html
JKowalek - December 14, 2011
sooo
either all of baseball is shocked at how little it took to get him or we are not looking at the same targets as Frank Wren.
drumzalicious - December 14, 2011
I guess we're thinking correctly...
carpengui - December 14, 2011
Uhm, duh.
Bronn - December 14, 2011
Krash is gonna be pissed
Mr. Sanchez - December 14, 2011
lol, I wrote that same thing below the jaw-dropping picture above.
king of games - December 14, 2011
I noticed after continuing to z through...
great minds, alike, all that mess.
Mr. Sanchez - December 14, 2011
You know, I gotta admit though
It would tickle the little kid in me to death to see A. Jones #25 patrolling the outfield again.
thenightstallion - December 14, 2011
The funny part of that is that I’d guess the odds are better that the original A Jones comes back… but maybe 2% chance at best.
carpengui - December 14, 2011
not saying i'd do it for AJones
but is Vizcaino expendable? I know FW has done wonders making moves without touching the big 4. But with Kimbrel in place, Venters, Meds, Gearrin, and Hoover are going to be around as well. If the plan is to use Vizzy as a starter, then I say keep him. But if the Braves see him as a late innings guy, because of talent or because of what else is to be had in the SP department, I say we should package him in with JJ and/or Prado. This should be able to land almost any fit for our LF, RH bopper
JKowalek - December 14, 2011
Every indication is that he will go back to being a starter this year
His move to the bullpen last year was done mostly to keep his innings total down, although it did have the benefit of seeing how he would fare out of the pen, which I would say was successful. I would imagine he starts the season as a starter in AA.
leedawg - December 14, 2011
Agreed.
And I think its definitely the right move for the long term to have him starting.
kauf67 - December 14, 2011
Been talking about this a lot on twitter
Jurrjens and Jones pretty much have identical value. They each also received $3.25m in their first arb year.
Jurrjens’ value is overstated due to his ERA and Jones’ value is overstated due to his home/road splits. Jones’ career line in away games is comparable to Prado’s last season. He is also pretty terrible vs. LHP for his career (just north of a .300 OBP). While UZR dislikes his defense, DRS says he is +13 for his career. I’ve seen him live a few times and he impressed me, leaving me to think that at worst he is slightly below average defensively in center but probably right around the mean or slightly above.
With both of their values being a bit overstated, a one-for-one trade would not be ideal for either team. They can likely trade with other teams and acquire players under control for longer. I would stay away from it, but it would not be the worst trade in the world as their relative value is more-or-less equal.
BenDuronio - December 14, 2011
If it were JJ straight up for Jones and we could still keep Prado as super-utility, I could probably talk myself into it, but I’d much rather go a different direction.
king of games - December 14, 2011
except
Prado is the better hitter so I’m not sure how our offense gets better by sitting Prado and starting Jones
Braves24 - December 14, 2011
Because our bench is so much better with Prado it more than makes up for the little we lose with Jones in LF.
king of games - December 14, 2011
I thought the idea was to have the best 8 position players out there first. bench is important, but strengthening it while hurting the starting group is not better. Other than defense and a few more homers, Jones is just worse than Prado. Prado gets on base a lot more than Jones. Jones strikes out more, walks less. Sure, having Prado as our super utility player does greatly improve our bench. But, I think Ryan Theriot or Keppinger would strengthen our bench as well. I think we are a better overall team with Prado in LF and Theriot/Keppinger as a utility guy.
rockybull - December 15, 2011
and we would still have JJ as our starter or to trade him for something good.
rockybull - December 15, 2011
this.
If we got Jones, it would be better to start Prado in left and then have Jones play when Prado is needed elsewhere rather than Prado sitting instead of Jones when Prado is not needed elsewhere.
cavebird - December 15, 2011
Ah, Twitter
I do NOT do Twitter. By choice. I see no value in it. If others do, including people here, that is fine. My best friend loves it. It’s just my personal choice.
Now having said that, guys, you really can’t put a lot of stock in Twitter stuff. I’ve exchanged a few emails with Jon Heyman, mentioned in the article. He’s a good guy. I like his column. But he just passes on any and every half-assed rumor he hears without any filtering. I am completely making this up, but he might say something like “Hearing rumblings about a Brian McCann for Landon Powell trade”. Other writers do the same. Stop paying attention to Twitter.
Zontar - December 14, 2011
That doesn’t make any sense at all. It’s not Twitter’s fault if one person puts out a bad rumor. You’d get the same rumors with or without Twitter.
king of games - December 14, 2011
Did I miss something?
abraves257 - December 14, 2011
wait
Bowden would move Bourn to LF and play Jones in CF?
I can come up with foolishness like that, can I be an analyst?
drumzalicious - December 14, 2011
Actually, I’m fairly certain you’d be hard pressed to come up with something that stupid. You should probably keep your day job.
king of games - December 14, 2011
Jones is Tom Sawyer's Fence
He’s not all that good, but the O’s have spent years telling everyone that he’s so great they won’t even consider dealing him, now they’re just waiting for some poor sucker to come along nibbling on an apple.
Lennox - December 14, 2011
Reason #5,471 why not to listen to anything Jim Bowden says
You move the worse fielder to left? Cause that makes sense.
/makes the cuckoo circles by his ear
Mr. Sanchez - December 14, 2011
I hope Bowden comes out next and says Prado will play SS
leedawg - December 14, 2011
Dear Frank Wren.
WHAT ARE YOU DOING!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Punto just signed for two years at 3.5 mil total.
drumzalicious - December 14, 2011
I’m calm now. I have to trust Wren.
drumzalicious - December 14, 2011
I do this same thing.
First, there are some bogus rumors float around, I’m fine, I saw Wren’s a player. He’s got this.
Then we don’t do anything, and I’m like, his name is still Frank Wren, no big deal. He’s got this.
Eventually, more bogus rumors start floating around, and I start to get a little nervous, but then I have to remind myself he does this everytime.
And then, options seem to run pretty short, and I go, Hey Wren, I’ve got faith in you, but you’re trying my patience.
Finally, just after I’ve given up all hope and convince myself Wren has lost his touch and bravada, he pulls off an excellent move, and I say “I never should have doubted you, Saint Wren.”
Wash, rinse, and repeat every year basically.
thenightstallion - December 14, 2011
you mean twice a year. Offseason and trade deadline
drumzalicious - December 14, 2011
DONT TRADE PRADO
We need to stop trying to do trades and focus on loking down Bourn first, if not we are going to be needeing 2 OF soon……
jgg420 - December 14, 2011
there goes Punto,
let’s go get Keppinger.
jrodisjust2cool - December 14, 2011 via mobile
That's fine and all..
but we would still need a back-up SS.
jwrocks - December 14, 2011
And where would the
defensive back-up we are looking for be?
cmdpsu15 - December 14, 2011
who do you want then?
jrodisjust2cool - December 14, 2011 via mobile
I’d rather have Prado then Adam Jones.
Broccoman - December 14, 2011
I think we’re all in agreement at this point.
king of games - December 14, 2011
Glad to see there isn't anything behind this.
Adam Jones may work as a left fielder, but we’re in a lot of trouble if he’s our center fielder. A one-for-one swap with Jurrjens may work, but I’d still probably rather get prospects from Colorado, Cincinnati, etc. and go after Beltran on the FA market.
Scott Coleman - December 14, 2011
I like Adam Jones.
Just not at that price. I really don’t see anything feasible that would make that trade worthwhile for the Braves.
UMDBHIK - December 14, 2011
Pick-Up Artist
Think Duquette is trying the PUAs insult-the-girl move, with similar likelihood of success.
Yakker - December 14, 2011
Moves
Regardless of what moves the Braves make, unless they can use some degree of discipine at the plate, it ain’t gonna matter. I am so tired of watching Braves hitters swing at anything in the area code! Game after game the past few years, it’s been maddening. This are MAJOR LEAGUE hitters people. You cannot score runs swinging at pitcher’s pitches. Take look back at last years avgs! Freeman (rookie none the less) led the team with what a .286 ba. THAT SUX!!!!
jerryr - December 14, 2011
In 2011, maybe.
In 2010, the Braves were one of the most patient teams in baseball.
cavebird - December 15, 2011
And back then, people were complaining that we weren't being aggressive enough.
Sigh.
duwanis - December 15, 2011
looks like...
either Frank Wren’s got a world class, won’t break under any pressure, could win a stare down with chuck norris poker face…or he got so excited about Lowrie’s low price that he jumped out of his chair too fast that he tripped over himself, and since the poor sap didn’t get life-alert, he is now sitting on the floor of his office with his thumb up his butt.
In reality however, im guessing FW just wasn’t fond of Lowrie. I see no reason for him not to have jumped all over that unless he just simply didn’t want to do it or unless he has something else up his sleeve, which I think soon enough we will all find out to be true.
On another, non baseball related note, anyone wanna take a shot on the odds that CP3 ACTUALLY gets traded to L.A this time? I personally hope so, the clippers will be a fun team to watch next year if it is truly finalized. Thank God he did not go to the lakers, i want no reason to support that team, but if paul and as rumored possibly D12 would have gone there I would have watched at least a few games.
Oh and anyone else think Arthur Blank should buy the Hawks? I swear if Dwight ends up becoming a FA next year and the ASG ends up ruining any shot of him coming back home to ATL i’d never watch another Hawks game until they were under new management. If D12 does become a FA next year, all we’d have to do is amnesty Joe Johnson’s ridiculous contract and then we’d easily be able to bid for Howard. And no matter what anyone has heard, he would love to play here, the one thing that would stop him from doing so is a shitty ownership situation (unfortunately the Hawks have one of the worst in professional sports). But who knows, with a core of Teague, Smith, Horford, and Howard.. that may be enough for him to overlook how awful ASG truly is.
Sorry about the non-baseball topic, just wanted something new to discuss that wasn’t a bogus rumor or something about Tebow (no disrespect there, he’s doing awesome, i’m just tired of hearing about it.)
bravesfanldh - December 14, 2011
I think CP3 goes to the Clipps
because of the Clippers throwing in Eric Gordan . That was the big thing in the deal from the NBA’s side of it was making sure that NO was getting back a young talented player with upside and years of team control . I don’t see Howard getting traded until the trade deadline , if then . And I love the move my team (DA BULLS) made tonight by signing Rip Hamilton . He is as good a defender as Bogan is with 3 times as much offensive skillset .
bravesdude - December 15, 2011
looks all but official now
Gordon was a great return for NO, but to be honest, David Stern must have a grudge against the lakers because that first trade option was completely in the Hornets favor. The only team that should have objected to it was the Rockets because they were giving up more to get Gasol than the Lakers were to get Paul. But as it stands I’m happy he is with the clippers, I can only imagine the highlights were going to see this year from Griffen with CP3 tossing the ball to him.
And yeah, good move by the bulls. Rip is a solid player and will help that team a lot defensively. They’re probably one of the better defensive units in the league IMO. Its unfortunate you have players like Noah and Boozer, I just don’t like them and hence can’t support the team they play for. I am split though bc I love D-rose.
Thankfully for the Hawks, we have the D-rose equivalent in Jeff Teague….so long as Larry Drew lets him start the ENTIRE season and actually develope. Teague is one of only a handful of players that can run with Rose throughout he entire game. He’s got sky high potential that will never be realized while he is warming the bench for wash up players like Hinrich (he’s good but his starting days are over). Just look at Jordan Crawford (who we traded along with like 3 other players and a first round draft pick for Hinrich…sighh), he dropped 39 points with the Wizards in the first game he was given a chance to actually play, and then posted a triple double the game after. I new the hawks would regret giving him away, he could be our starting sg right now and we could cut JJ…unfortuantely our ownership doesn;t have the nads to admit they made a mistake signing him to such a lucrative deal, and hence he will remain on this team until a new owner with some stones and a basketball mentality comes in and says adios.
I also read an article about how Dominique Wilkins should replace Sund as the Hawks GM….i think that’d be sweet tits. But it won’t happen. Uggh, i suspect Hawks-Bulls meet again in the second round with a similar result as last year. We won;t be getting over the second round hump this year with the geezers we’ve signed.
bravesfanldh - December 15, 2011
NBA?
What’s that?
jwrocks - December 15, 2011
Ronny Cedeno?
I’d rather have the Sea Bass…..
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/12/braves-interested-in-ronny-cedeno.html
jwrocks - December 15, 2011
or Jack Wilson
jwrocks - December 15, 2011
Or Omar Visquel.
king of games - December 15, 2011
Ok... I am calm, honest I am... I do have a soapbox to stand on though...
Dear Mr. Frank Wren,
I believe in you… I’ve advocated for you so many times, it almost seems like your my dad or something… If you could share with me just some of the things ChopMaster’s dad shared with him, I would be happy… I’m not interested in grilling hotdogs or making sloppy joes… I just want a piece of your mind… I want to know what in the HELL you are thinking… We have needs. We’re Braves fans. We have desires… We’re Braves fans… We’re impatient… We’re Braves Fans… You have to throw us a reindeer biscuit every now and then just to keep us from jumping off the ledge. After seeing Houston pull a major FW and trade a RP for TWO… TWO… someone help me here… TWO MLB players from the Red Sox… One of which is more versatile than a swiss army knife… who I happen to have an infatuation with… (platonic of course)… Frank, dude, seriously now… At least put out a press release and tell us something… Let us know you bought a new dog and named it Jimmy or something. Now look, Frank, I’m a patient man. That’s what 29 years of being a Braves Fan will do to you. But I will be watching you, studying your every move. And if I find that you are trying to corrupt my favorite team, I will bring you down, baby. I will bring you down to Chinatown.
With all that being said, Merry Freakin’ Christmas and let’s go after the ’Stros and get Lowrie from them…
P.S.- Leave the Orioles alone unless the name Machado is part of the plan.
Klemson Krash - December 15, 2011
I’ll Rec that.
king of games - December 15, 2011
Second that Rec
jwrocks - December 15, 2011
What would it take to get Hardy?
Jurrjens, Pastornicky, Hoover and what else? Would it even be feasible to try?
BhamBrave - December 18, 2011
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