Talking Chop

I love having this problem though. This means that we have a well-balanced team while others have to rely on (mostly) a single guy and if that person slumps, there goes the team!

Ummm...

…no option to vote for Omar Infante!!!

gondeee - September 2, 2010 reply

If he had 100 more PAs with the same rate stats,

I would have given him one. I love Omar, but there’s no way he tops these 4 guys.

Yeah, I’m just joshin, but if Joe Simpson were picking in this pole, he would need an Omar Infante category. Just sayin.

Can I vote for Marteen McCann-ward?

gondeee - September 2, 2010 reply

haha

Yeah, Joe would say that.

I am pro vote-splitting…. Provided you can figure out how to do that.

All 4 make pretty strong cases too...

Hudson has been consistently strong all year, with only 3 or 4 bad starts in 27 and only one of them was that bad.

Prado has been consistent producing, with the solidifying the leadoff spot early and now replacing Chipper in the 3 hole. That he leads the league in hits in spite of the time missed shows his production when in there.

Heyward, at his best, would be a lock for this. But his cold spells bring him back in with the others.

McCann is similar to Heyward, but without the highs or lows. Kind of like Prado, just consistently producing and producing well all year, and probably the best player at his position in the league.

How the hell could an All-Star be an MVP?!?!?!?

1 vote for the bench, collectively

Bravo! - September 2, 2010 reply

Bobby Cox

duh.

or maybe Cash, he just rakes.

Cash has been the best pickup of the year!

aceiii222 - September 2, 2010 reply

Huddy.

+1

He’s been fantastic pretty much every time he’s touched the ball and leads the NL in ERA. Can’t ask much more out of the guy.

was385 - September 2, 2010 reply

Vote Prado

This was extremely tough, but Prado (other than when he was hurt) has been consistently great the entire season. I really cannot think of a time that he struggled mightily at the plate. All of the other options (hitters) have been streaky at times, but I would place McCann ahead of J-Hey…

I generally tend to consider MVPs as position players. Thus, Huddy, while amazing this year, is not our MVP since he only plays once every 5 games…He’s definitely the Braves’ Greg Maddux Award (the Braves’ Cy Young Award equivalent) winner, though…

Heyward did nothing for most of June and July. Hudson only plays in 1 out of 5 games. McCann has certainly been very valuable. But I voted for Prado. It was moving him into the top of the line up that turned the Braves’ offense around.

redwards95 - September 2, 2010 reply

Hmmm...

I can’t vote for just one of these guys. It’s so tough. However, I suppose that’s quite the excellent predicament to have.

I will say though, that with a gun to my head, I’d probably have to go with B-Mac. He’s just been consistent this year and years past. A slight homer mentality if you will.

XBEARDX - September 2, 2010 reply

#6

Bobby all the way!

Darin H - September 2, 2010 reply

Very tough, but I went with Prado.

ChrisK562 - September 2, 2010 reply

Huddy's B-R WAR

Hadn’t checked on it before but it’s great to see that… He kind of gets gypped by the FG formula which is based entirely on FIP… he got my vote.

Tough Choice

I went with Prado. Before the season began only Braves fans knew his potential. Now everyone has to take notice at how clutch and consistent he has been. I never worry when he is in the box and he can come up with the big hit at any time. I love J-Hey but he may be too patient at times. McCann is a very close second. But if the Braves make it to the World Series, then I’m gonna have to change my vote!

jayjaxon - September 2, 2010 reply

Although it’s super contextualized, another fun stat to talk about re:value is WPA/LI. Heyward’s ranks 7th among qualified hitters and Huddy has the 3rd highest in baseball among pitchers, which is pretty great.

Care to explain that stat for me, please?

Zeus12888 - September 2, 2010 reply

sure

value stats like WAR only take into account individual performance-which is best when predicting future performance etc… WPA/Li takes into account the game situation to show how many wins the player has added. So if the question is “Who has played the best so far?” the stat you want to use is WAR, but if it’s “Where would the Braves be with Heyward/Hudson/whomever?” it also makes sense to look at WPA/Li… it’s more results-based, but has less predictive value. link

mikie baseball - September 2, 2010 reply

For me...

this where one throws away the numbers. Martin Prado has been sensational from day one and despite an injury continues to produce at a high quality level.This takes nothing from Big Mac, or Hudson.I think that Prado deserves the NL MVP, despite the numbers of Votto, CarGo and the Machine. Every day he comes to the park to play and play hard, where ever,and how ever.I can’t imagine where we would be without him. That said, Jey Hey would clearly be the MVP if we only counted the first and last month or so.

Wow.

I asked this in the OT last night and got only a handful of real answers.

My MVP is Frank Wren. Even though I disagree with acquiring Gonzalez, Farnsworth and Ankiel, his acquiring Wags, Saito, Glaus, and Hinske have all benefitted this club, as well as Derrek Lee.

just so long as at the end of the year…the good moves outweigh the bad moves it is a success. Great SUCCESS

All I am going to say is...

How many games behind would we be if Heyward doesn’t have all of his game winning hits?

aceiii222 - September 2, 2010 reply

Can’t register a mobile vote, so I’ll just cast my vocal support of Prado here. This was a very tough call for me between him and Huddy, who has stopped a lot of bleeding with his fantastic outings this year, but I gotta ultimately go with Marteeeen because not only has he been consistently good, but he’s been far and away better than we dared hope for in his first full year. I think we all expected him to hold his own and be a solid second baseman, but I don’t think anyone would have predicted he’d be able to 1) lead the team in slugging, 2) lead the LEAGUE in hits, and 3) fill in so capably for the downed Chipper, to the extent that despite Chipper’s pre-injury hot streak you’d be hard-pressed to tell the difference in this team with Prado there instead of him (which is admittedly due in part to Infante’s work at second, but still).

J-Freak - September 2, 2010 via mobile reply

Prado

and for me, it isn’t even close.

get swoll yunel - September 2, 2010 reply

Ditto.

I’ll take “Things I never expected justin to say” for $5000 Alex.

I hope your crow tastes as good as mine. I used Dale’s as a marinade.

But, we are arrogant know it alls who hate Prado and Infante and never admit we are wrong about anything…

Okay

No offense meant to anybody on here, but I am extremely sick of this “he only plays in one out of every five games” argument about pitchers. First off, in the game the pitcher does play, he is automatically the most involved (notice, not important, not valuable, as these both vary game by game) player in the game. When position player play in games (even though it maybe on a daily basis), they are only involved when either a) they are up during their at-bat, b) they are on base, or c) they are playing the field and a ball is hit to them/ they have to participate in some variance of catching/ throwing the ball.

I’m not going to do the math (mostly because I am not sure where to find the data), but I am willing to be that if you add up all of the instances that a specific SP is involved in the play of the game over a five game period and all of the instances that a position player is involved over a five game period, they are much closer than people realize.

Granted, a pitcher has a huge impact on one game out of 5, but no impact on the other 4. Heyward, prado, and mac do something every day of the week and when you’re talking about who has contributed most to the team’s success, it has to be a position player

telemakhos - September 2, 2010 reply

That one game

can effect the other four if you value momentum.

Well, then you could say the same thing about any of the batters who kick ass for one game and give the team momentum, right?

vooodooo - September 2, 2010 reply

Not true.

I do believe Tim Hudson has at least one PH as well as PR appearances this season.

Yup

And last season, it seems as if Jair Jurrjens was always running if we need a Pinch Runner.

Telemakhos

Right. And a position player has impact in his 4 PA’s in a game and whenever a ball is hit his way, and absolutely no impact on the other 85% of the game.

so you’re saying that on average, a position player impacts 15% of each game. A pitcher impacts roughly 55% of one game out of 5. That means that on average, a pitcher effects 11% of a 5 game stretch. FTW, 15%>11%

telemakhos - September 2, 2010 reply

pitchers also bat and field. And Hudson has seemed to do both more than average – in terms of quantity and quality

As a general rule position players – assuming they stay reasonably healthy – have more influence on team results over the course of a full season than a pitcher does.

But if a pitcher makes 35 starts or goes 250 innings and pitches REALLY well (plus handles the glove and bat really well) then he can close that presumed gap.

DCP916 - September 2, 2010 reply

well WAR standarizes all the problems you are talking about, if you buy into the equations. …so anyone who is aware of WAR and still uses the one inf five days argument, you can pretty much smack them in the head.

"if you buy into the equations"

it’s like turn of the century (19th/20th) sausage making. Don’t ask us what goes into this mess, just eat it.

Using equations

and sausage making in the same thought makes me think of horses. Not a great way to start the afternoon.

Hmmm Sausage….Bratwurst….Da Bears

Heart attack #12

Actually he has his 13 heart attack in that skit, becuase he says that makes a bakers dozen. get it right jackass

Heart attack #12

Heart attack #12

Heart attack #12

I can’t see any of my replies, but I am assuming that it posted multiple times…dammit.

Don’t have a heart attack over it…

#12?

+1

my vote reflects this

Don't have too much time...

But:

Hudson: 69 Plate Appearances and 184.2 innings pitched. That’s 552 outs (I figure walks and hits are negatives, so I did not count them).

Prado: 548 Plate Appearances and 515 POs and Assists. He’s played in 1,022.20 innings.

Thus, while my numbers are likely not showing all categories where a player is involved (and some numbers would count toward Huddy and Prado, like when Hudson is on the mound and Prado gets the out), Prado has played much more than Hudson this season (and Prado was out for some time).

I am not arguing that starters have zero value; however, I still have a hard time voting for a player that can only affect a maximum of 20% of the team’s games (and he doesn’t even pitch all 9 innings of the games he does pitch in). Yes, momentum is a factor, but a big hit can create positive momentum the following day as well.

Prado (or any other hitter) can increase our chances of victory every game of the season. Obviously, they don’t, but Huddy does not win or pitch well at all times either. I would take Pujols over any starter in baseball.

If you look at WAR, Hudson is the worst of the 4 listed above…But maybe I am a rabid anti-starting pitcherite.

The truth is that all 4 are amazing players and we would not be where we are without any of them.

I appreciate the math, I was searching for, but couldn’t think of, a way to compare the two. I disagree that you can simply not include a the walks and hits against Hudson, but then again, you haven’t included the plays that Prado has participated in while he’s on base, so I am sure that it evens out.

My post wasn’t to argue the age-old adage that consistent position players are much more valuable than consistent starting pitchers, but rather to say that dismissing a SP’s importance based on the fact that he only participates in one out of five games is ignorant.

For example, I might say that Roy Halladay has been the Phillies MVP this year, and that the quality that he has offered in his limited playing time brings more to the table than, let’s say, Jason Werth has brought in his entire playing time. And, according to WAR, I would be right. I was sick of people arguing the point that SP CANNOT be team MVPs, not the point that Prado is more valuable than Hudson is. It takes a higher skill or talent level for a pitcher to bring in 1/2 the playing time than what a position player can bring, but it is not impossible.

Also, I voted for Prado (would have for Infante were he an option).

I get your point...

If the Braves were not so loaded with other amazing options like Prado, McCann, Heyward, Infante, etc. Huddy could easily be MVP. My posts actually make me seem like a jackass.

Halladay is clearly the MVP of the Phillies. But Huddy has not been quite as dominant as Halladay (sorry…he hasn’t), and Prado and BMac, in particular, are some of the few players in baseball (and J-Hey lately) that literally play well almost every, single night.

Heck, BMac is involved in the game more than any other player on the team (by far), if you count all the of games he calls/catches for the pitchers. He even won the NL All Star MVP. If we make the WS, that will be HUGE. I should have given this more weight…But once again we are lucky enough to all of these guys on our team…

So, in sum, it’s not Huddy’s fault that we are so talented, and I still feel that if any one of the four guys listed above (and Infante, too) were out for major portions of this season, we would not be in first place.

^All Star MVP

NL All Star MVP my butt…He’s the All Star of the Baseball World!

Yup,

I agree with everything you said, down to a pinpoint. I was just pissed at the notion that one can dismiss a SP as MVP based on the fact that they are a SP. I completely agree that Huddy’s contribution (although significant) does not top that list of players. We can dismiss him in this conversation for that notion, not for the notion that he’s ‘just a SP’.

I'm voting for Huddy

but, I’m going out on a limb here and may get bashed. I think Troy Glaus, yes Glaus deserves a nomination. On April 29, the Atlanta Braves were 8-14 and coming off a 9 game losing streak. our starters were 2-10.The bats had 13 HR, 75 RBI, .228 AVG and .665 SLG. The team was 5 GB. From April 30th – June 20th, the team went 34 and 14. During that same span, Troy Glaus had 12 HR, 46 RBI, .312 AVG, .411 OBP and .572 SLG. Following that span, the Braves had a 2.5 game lead that they have yet to give up. From June 20th – Last Night, the Braves are 30-27.

I’m not saying Glaus had one of the greatest streaks ever or we would be in last place without him. We don’t even have him right now. However, outside of that run our record is 38-44. for someone as criticized as he was and doing as poorly as we was until that point to turn it around that drastically and have it hold up for almost 2 months deserves alot of the credit. Obviously other guys were hot and were getting on for Troy to hit in. But the fact is BIG Troy was the NL’s player of the month in May and for good reason.

He isn’t the MVP because A) outside of that span he hasn’t done much and 2) someone whose been there all year long should get it. Still, he deserves a nomination and alot of credit for where we are today.

JKowalek - September 2, 2010 reply

Nominating Glaus

is not as farfetched as you may think.

let's refuse to vote

and stand to protest then

JKowalek - September 2, 2010 reply

We're here

We’re queer
Get used to it!

Wait. Wrong chant……….

haha

JKowalek - September 2, 2010 reply

a poll asking who the MVP is and Melky is not an option? Clearly, he is the most volumnious player.

telemakhos - September 2, 2010 reply

I don’t even think “volumnious” is a word, but for some reason it still seems to fit.

Just because it's misspelled...

voluminous, as in takes the most volume. I’d say Glaus, Heyward or Lee would displace the most water when submerged. Maybe Hinske since he’s so squat.

Still like volumnious more for Melky.

I’m surprised I had to scroll down this far for the obvious Melky mention.

bpk228480 - September 2, 2010 reply

I would probably vote for Prado

if he showed a bit more power (and I think that is what keeps him out of contention for the actual MVP), but Huddy seems to get us back on track every time we stumble. Every time we need a win to stop the bleeding, there’s Hudson. That makes an MVP for me.

He's showed plenty of power for a 2nd baseman. When Pedroia had a .493 slg & 17 homers when he won it. won it

FitzFan - September 3, 2010 reply

when your team is in 1st place and you don`t know who is the mvp, it´s because

all the team is contribuiting to win games.
Infante has a couple of winning runs and leads the team in avg*
Heyward was carrying this team during April, May and now he is contribuiting
Prado has played good all the year (just 1 little slump)
BMac, up and down, 2 GS , 1 Walkoff and leads the team in HR
Glaus carried the team during May and part of June
Hinske, we started to win when he was in the lineup during May
Diaz, when he was back from DL, he won a couple of games for us.
Melky, he is the mvp. He has 2 walkoff and was hittig really good the ball during a couple of weeks
Conrad, the late innings hero
Chipper. the team leader. 100 mPh HR
McLouth. He hit a walkoff and hit a 3run HR to tie a game agains DBacks or Brewer
Diory. If he hadn`t hi that ph HR, the offense hadn`t waken up.
AGon. He has playing really good since the trade
Ankiel. Cubs winner and saving runs with his laser arm.
DLee. Need more time.

pitching staff. (SP + BPen) just awesome. (not incluiding Chavez nor Failsworst)

this is the difference of this team. a different hero each day.

McLouth’s walkoff was against the Phillies. And then we lost 9 straight.

BraveSaluki - September 2, 2010 reply

I love how Infante isn't even an option.....not really.

Prado / Infante

BROOKS CONRAD

SuperHeyward - September 2, 2010 reply

Definitely Prado.

I’d say to include Venters, for being damn good all year. Also, Conrad should get some love. His grand slam earlier in the year really seemed to turn the team around.

Sparhawk - September 2, 2010 reply

I couldn't find the bubble for Melky

MVP

that

Old Braves' Fan - September 2, 2010 reply

I would give one to the "team".

It seems we’ve had a different MVP after each win. These guys are special. I’ve noticed in the post game interviews, the guys are all so humble, and Always take the spotlight off themselves and give the credit to the team.

HEYJUDE - September 2, 2010 reply

I agree.

That’s why it’s so difficult to choose, everyone here has valid points as to their differing selections and the players don’t really have any standout, near-league leading stats (other than Prado’s hits and Huddy’s ERA; though I’m sure I’m over looking something/someone). This year has been a true, complete, team effort. And I love it!

The answer is: there is no true answer.

We’d be nothing without any of those 4 guys.

Scott Coleman - September 2, 2010 via mobile reply

Way to take the easy way out man.

Well it’s true.

But for the record, Martin Prado is the MVP.

If only they had a losing record with him…

What?

Im glad I wasn't the only one confused.

why even worry about it?

Dude is the most glass half empty guy I’ve ever known, online

You are clueless.

You are a know-it-all that doesn’t know shit.

I agree.

I may be clueless, but I guess mvhs and Doghnut are, too, because nobody knew what the hell you were talking about.

The post I replied to is now gone. It was an errant post. I said Prado was our MVP and that is wasn’t even close. Why would I make a stupid comment about not liking him in the lineup?

I don’t know, man.

But when people see this comment (“If only they had a losing record with him…”) under a post about Prado, it doesn’t look like something nice.

That escalated quickly...

It looked like he was saying something negative about Prado. and that’s where I draw the line.

apparently, there was an “errant post”.

Because it is more logical that I would shit-talk Prado, you know, since I claimed him as my MVP and all…

This was definitely a reply to the post about dumping the cancer that was Yunel…and now that post is not here…freakin afghanistani internet.

I concur with this opinion

Kicking our cancer to the curb

For me thats what makes this team what it is.

bluelg - September 2, 2010 reply

yunel

bluelg - September 2, 2010 reply

(even though he was the MVP in 2009, easily)

I agree it was probably best to move him, too, but just saying.

THIS is what I was replying to above.

QFT: “If only they had a losing record with him…”

THIS is what I was replying to above.

QFT: “If only they had a losing record with him…”

chavez was on our team and contributing about as much as yunel

are you going to tell me Chavez was good for this team?

bluelg - September 2, 2010 reply

Please don't...

It’s not worth it. Justin doesn’t like Gonzo and is a fan of Yunel. It’s a fact. While I disagree with him, he is entitled to his opinion. Why do we all insist on poking and prodding him?

I honestly do not think that Gonzo can do anything to change Justin’s mind…

good future performance after a trade

only tells me that it worked out well…

not that it was a logical decision at the time

kbertling353 - September 2, 2010 reply

I VOTE

FREDDIE FREEMAN!!!!

he should have gotten those hits last night.

tbbrown - September 2, 2010 reply

Random Question

This may have already been asked, but I don’t want to read through 60+ comments to find out.

Does WAR take into account position? What I mean is: does Heap get a boost because he plays a premium position?

yes

Thanks.

Little tough to compare people with WAR. I dunno. I mean, it’s Wins Above
Replacement. So, if the average for catchers is really low and the average for outfielders is really high, then Heap’s WAR suddenly doesn’t look so great compared to JHey.

Just sayin.

That and then there is the sausage making part of it...

how the equations are, what’s weighted stronger and what’s weighted lower, and the rest. WAR isn’t an absolute indicator as there are a lot of factors that can be disputed in the calculations alone, plus obviously the weighting of those variables.

Oh, and I love Laveurnes Coles.

have you been drinking?

Nah, was just watching Hard Knocks

oh man...

that show is great… I so wanna hang out with Rex Ryan

knarf - September 2, 2010 reply

Kinda random about LC

I think I have his rookie card kicking around somewhere…probably next to my Chad Pennington rookie card

Prado

WAR places them fairly close, so i’m going with my subjective perception of consistency.

during those times when heyward and mccann were slumping, prado was probably still doing his thing. but it’s difficult to choose — in addition to being awesome, they all play the game passionately and present themselves to fans in a way that makes it easy to pull for ’em.

brndn - September 2, 2010 reply

Must be said

If Heyward keeps getting 3-4 hits every night, this poll is going to change very quickly.

Oh absolutely...

if Heyward continues to rake the rest of the way as he has lately, and did in May, it changes things. His best has been better than any other position player except maybe Glaus’ May. It’s just he’s had low points last as long as his highs.

scary to think

that his cold streak may have been almost entirely injury related.

Indeed....

just wait to see what he can do with a healthy year. Hopefully we see that next year, and the numbers start to look Pujolsian.

this

he was on pace for 30+ hrs 100+ rbis before the injury

30+ hrs, 100+ rbi, with an honest chance at a .300/.400/.500 line. That month when he was playing injured totally killed him.

yep

and good defense. That’s just amazing

But he's not worthy of Rookie of the Year...

[makes crazy finger motion beside ear]

Anyone...

Who follows baseball knows that Heyward, when healthy, is the best rookie this season. That said, it is a very tough race this season.

I know we love Heyward and Venters, but Garcia, Sanchez, Colvin and Posey are solid players.

He is very close

to that line right now, actually. He might not get his AVG up to .300, but the OBP and SLG could easily get to .400 and .500.

Amazing when you consider how bad he was in June.

yea but

Prado has done that the whole year.

Lineup

Infante
Heyward
Prado
Lee
BMac
Diaz
Gonzalez
Cabrera
Huddy

No Diaz at cleanup?

That’s preposterous.

I like him hitting lower in the lineup. He doesn’t seem to hit well when he’s hitting cleanup.

He does against Johan.

I know, but still…I like him hitting lower in the lineup. Always have.

Same here, he's a lower third of the order guy

Great 6 or 7 kinda guy

Yep. That OBP in the middle of the order is a killer.

you are effing with right….because you just said you like him hitting lower in the line-up and thats where I put him in the 6th or 7th spot (actually could be considered middle) and then you contradict your own post by making a sarcastic remark about his OBP.

Wait...what?

I was agreeing with you. I was just saying I don’t like his OBP in the middle of the order (which I think of as 3-4-5), and like him much better in the lower half (6-7-8)

Dont Fricking Agree with me goddamnit…argue or i will immediately change my mind and request we bat Matty D in the 3 spot

6-7 looks more like the back end, particularly in the NL

A bit surprised not to see Glaus in there...

figured they’d let Lee rest up one more day, and get Glaus into the action since he was hitting pretty well in AAA.

I think Turner Field is the true MVP.

But I voted for B-Mac because he seemed to realize this during the ASG when he got home field advantage for us when we go to the world series.

But really, any of those four guys are great choices. I don’t even think I could determine who has been the most valuable between them. Throw an option of “The Bench” in there, and it’s craziness.

Sarahbeth - September 2, 2010 reply

The Bullpen, as well.

No doubt we have one of the best.

Sarahbeth - September 2, 2010 reply

johnny venters

This guy has come in and struck out a lot of players and he’s not even mentioned as rookie of year.

jayball - September 2, 2010 reply

Pitchers don’t win ROY, especially non-closer relievers.

Matsuzaka disagree

Daisuke...

didn’t win ROY… Pedroia did in 07.

and only 4 relief pitchers have ever won ROY, and they were all closers, so the second half of this statement is absolutely correct.

Venters should at least be in the discussion for the amazing season he has had. Take out those 2 games in Colorado this month and he’s got the best numbers of any reliever in the majors.

knarf - September 2, 2010 reply

then Justin and Dontrelle disagree

Keep in mind I put absolutely no research into my statement. But in general, pitchers have a much more difficult road to ROY than position players and non-closer relief pitchers have absolutely no chance barring a truely horrendous rookie class.

ESPN mentioned him on the lastweek

also, put him in the NL Rookies Team as a Set Up

Prado

forgotten_glory - September 2, 2010 reply

Hudson

Obviously a tough choice, but after thinking about it, I’m gonna say Hudson. I know he only plays one in every five games, but the guy has been amazing this season. I can really only remember one really bad start. I say he is the most valuable player because he has accomplished his stopper role extremely successfully. If we are on a slide, you know you can give the ball to Huddy and things will turn around. That has been the case a couple times this season, including the winning streak we are on at the moment.

Voted McCann

I can’t believe how underrated he is.

TheBravestWay To Block A Decent Prospect - September 2, 2010 reply

I say this all the time

Dude’s gonna hit 20+ HRs for the 5th year in a row, come up just short of a .3/.4./5. line, and calls a great game behind the plate, and no one ever talks about him. Easily one of the most underrated players of the last 25 years or so.

I've been arguing with a guy...

who says he’d take Yadier Molina over Heap, everyday and twice on Sunday. Just makes me go:

BrockSamson - September 2, 2010 reply

Damn temp screwing up all the samples

that was her only major mistake though.

I'd take Yadier Molina every day over Heap as well.

If I’m selecting a backup catcher.

UMDBHIK - September 3, 2010 reply

i really would like say way of quantifying who calls a good game and who doesnt…I’m not sayin McCann doesnt, because I have no clue…and our pitching staff is good so some credit has to go to McCann for that I guess

its just right now its all conjecture about who calls a good game, its also an excuse to give shitty catchers ABs, which is annoying (although not particularly relevant to this discussion)

on a off topic note…i really dislike those hats…they keep making the Memorial DAy/4th of July hats look worse and worse…the were good in 08 with the all navy, than last yea the all red was ok ish (i didnt particualrly like it) now they have these things…i just cant understand

couldn't have said it better myself

the red ones were hideous. the ones this year were ok. but the ones from ’08 were the best.

I guess the “ad wizards” over at MLB didn’t think so.

but jeez…..those all-red hats were God-awful.

They’re fine if the team colors are actually red white and blue. The Braves probably fared better than most-Giants, Rockies, any away team, etc. I thought the Braves looked pretty good with the white hats and the white home uni’s.

ya they don’t look horrible, but like you said its because our colors don’t change…I just thought the Blue ones looked the best overall on teams

It's something else to sell and make money on

and some like to match the hat with the rest of their clothes, so they can have a blue, red, white, and any other color A hat (green from St. Pat’s, pink, baby blue-which is still my favorite, etc).

nike pro combat

is the future

forgotten_glory - September 2, 2010 reply

The red last year was AWFUL.

I remember we were away for the weekend of the 4th and just… ick. The red completely clashed with the gray. I thought the white ones this year were pretty sharp. Especially on us, since we’ve been at home in our white uniforms.

Sarahbeth - September 2, 2010 reply

i agree

the navy ones were awesome…the red didn’t work too well for us, but it worked well for the teams that the navy didn’t work well for (angels and reds for example)…whites didn’t really work for anyone…i thought they were awful…

How can Fangraphs and Baseball Reference have different WAR values?

Isn’t there an equation?

TheBravestWay To Block A Decent Prospect - September 2, 2010 reply

Fangraphs uses

wOBA for offense and URZ for defense.

BRef uses OPS (I think) for offense and Total Zone for defense.

There are some other minor differences too.

BRef WAR guide.

Fangraphs WAR Guide

BRef uses linear weights for offense

Also: Chone and BRef WAR is the same thing.

Also Also: http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/6063

TheBravestWay To Block A Decent Prospect - September 2, 2010 reply

also

I thin BR bases pitchers WAR on RA and FG WAR uses FIP, explaining the huge disparities in Huddy’s ratings.

Because they plug different numbers into their equations...

as seen above. It’s one of the reasons I don’t give them the respect others do.

some us polish sausage, some use brats...

TheBravestWay To Block A Decent Prospect - September 2, 2010 reply

Because they plug different numbers into their equations…

I thought you would that. A different or congruent picture wrapped in a similar metric.

You can drop UZR and use Dewan numbers to make +/-WAR!

Or go here and subtract EQBBR from EQSBR and add that to Fangraph’s RAR to see how the player’s baserunning affects his value!

It’s fun you should try it.

This all just really makes me very happy about the future of this team! We have so much talent! I love watching them play, just the right amount of fire and professionalism! I vote Odarp! I don’t care how injured he has been, the way he plays just adds so much to this team! I think you could argue that he is becoming our leader?

jdmarine - September 2, 2010 reply

Odarp

ryantex - September 2, 2010 reply

The Houston Astros.

oooh

that was fun

+1

Seriously…How big was that sweep?

+1 more

Here’s my list of MVPs, in order:
1. Odarp
2. Venters
3. McCann
4. Huddy
5. McOut (his non-presence in the lineup has been incredibly valuable)

ryantex - September 2, 2010 reply

MVP Order

1. Dy-lan
2. Dy-lan
3. Astroglide
4. Dy-lan
5. The ghost of Harry Caray as played by Will Ferrel

BrockSamson - September 2, 2010 reply

Braves’ co-MVPs-the bullpen and the bench. I hate to think of where we would be without these two units.

sleezer1788 - September 2, 2010 via mobile reply

Mastermike for making the fanpost about Heyward, causing him to go on a tear.

That and the Royals blogger who said we should send him down.

I tried...

To find that story, but I can’t find it anymore. I wouldn’t be shocked if it was taken down.

LOL

that was arguably the stupidest thing I’ve read this year.

I've polled all of Jordan and the results are.....

1 Martin Prado
2 Tim Hudson
3 Brian McCann
4 Jason Heyward (RoY)

amman106 - September 2, 2010 reply

BMAC

though his defense is probably not “average to good” as described in the post

kbertling353 - September 2, 2010 reply

I disagree. Does he have the arm of Yadier Molina? No. But he calls one of the better games of anyone, is great with the young pitchers like JJ, Hanson, and Minor, and has a strong arm. It’s not his fault that Hanson takes 4 minutes to get the ball to the plate, and that’s when most of the runners run on BMac. No one really runs on him when Hudson, Jurrjens or Minor pitch. Teams run on Lowe, but that’s because he puts two runners on base every inning.

It absolutely is "average to good"

The only knock on his D is that he sometimes throws the ball away on throws to second. That’s it. He’s got decent mobility, blocks pitches pretty well, and catches stealers at a league-average rate. Catcher defense is tough to sum up in a statistic, but all the ones I’ve seen, including the Beyond the Boxscore metric (which is the one I trust most), rate him as at least average. BtB has him rated very well.

also been gypped on two CS in the past week.

Not only that, but defense isn't merely

blocking pitches and throwing to 1-3B. It’s handling a pitching staff, a job that Mac does a tremendous job at IMO.

UMDBHIK - September 3, 2010 reply

Martin is dominating this thing.

As he should.

Honestly,

he’s my 4th place guy. Because his defense is “just” average and because his OBP is well below the other hitters’. I can see the arguments for Martin, but he just can’t match those on-base skills, and he doesn’t play great D like Heyward or at a premium position like Mac.

You can’t go wrong with any of them, but the things I value most are found a bit more in the other 3 guys than in Martin.

i concur and would like to subscribe to your news letter

Although to be honest...

I can see a valid argument for all 4, plus Infante a step below them, and if you included him a group category of “bench” or if there was a group category for ‘bullpen", they’d have valid arguments too. So it’s not like your wrong with any choice. Kind of like ice cream, or cake.

I’m telling you you are drunk today…you arent wrong you are just a bit drunk…ice cream or cake…?

and you’re right i dont disagree with picking anyone…I just value OBP and defense at a premium position…so for me its either Heyward or McCann…then its basically how much I value consisitency….I will mull this over for the next 10 months and get back to you

Yes, ice cream and cake...

it works better with ice cream I guess, but I am a pastry fan and love some good cakes (my birthday is a few days away, wife’s just passed, and we had our first anniversary the other day, so we’ve got wedding cake in the fridge and I had an amazing piece of butter cake in Asheville last weekend, so I got cake on the brain).

But ice cream, you can make an argument for strawberry, or chocolate, or rocky road, or whatever your personal prefence is, and it’s a valid argument. Same as with our MVP talk, you can’t really go wrong with any flavor you choose, it’s only a question of which one suits your fancy. And for a good ice cream debate, see…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLS-npemQYQ

i guess it doesnt resonate well with me as I don’t like cake that much, and I really don;t like ice cream that much…Now if we are talking frozen custard than thats a whole nother story. Because once you have had frozen custard (the good stuff from WI) there really is no reason to ever eat ice cream ever again.

I prefer Cake or Death.

Somewhat surprising to me.

I figured he’d win, but I thought it’d be close and that Mac would get more support. It seems Mac is underrated even by Braves fans.

man this is tough

I would have to say Prado 1st
Huddy 2nd
BMac and JHey 3rd equal. Both have been clutch, and the fear they put into teams with RISP cannot be underestimated.

as someone else said, I think we are gonna ride JHey into the postseason and he will be MVP plus RoY

shearer16 - September 2, 2010 reply

Another fun fact...

The combined salaries of the 4 MVP candidates: 15.54 million or roughly one Derek Lowe…

don't know if this was already asked

and I know that WINZ are not the end all/be all but why weren’t Hudson’s WINZ included in the stats?

Because they are completely meaningless.

Unless you think Tommy Hanson is below average b/c he has a 9-10 “record.”

At least half the win-lost equation is run support / defense (I’d say more). Therefore it doesn’t tell us anything meaningful about the pitcher.

I don't deny they are dispositive

But it does reflect some things:

1) They allow less runs than the other team’s pitcher does.
2) The position players like them therefore SCOREZ ZE POINTS

But seriously, it shows that the pitcher is keeping the team in the game with, at least, the opportunity for the team to win. That’s saying something IMO. Whatever quantitative value it holds is up for someone else to try and decide. I just think it’s note-worthy.

correction

are not* dispositive.

They don’t reflect anything.

1. A pitcher could give up 1 run every game, and his team could score 1 run every game. His ERA would be like 0.30 and he would have a 0-0 record. Wins are, in no way, a good indicator of a pitcher. Meanwhile, another guy, say in New York, could give up 5 runs a game, have an ERA near 6 and be 10-0, depending on his offense.

2. Haha.

And my aunt could be my uncle...

I freaking hate that stupid argument. Yes, a win for a pitcher isn’t as telling as countless other stats. But all the woulda, coulda, shoulda games ignores the fact that every starting pitchers goal is to walk off the mound with a W. It’s not an all encompassing stat, but it does let you know a few things. The more wins and losses lets you know they generally go deep in games to get the decision, the more wins means the pitcher has pitched well enough to get the win, and the numbers have been broken down to show a HUGE disparity between the performance of a winning pitcher and a losing pitcher. It’s not a perfect stat, but I fail to see why it should be dismissed as useless because you come up with a bunch of imaginary ifs.

Mr. Sanchez - September 3, 2010 reply

THIS

I thought I made it clear that I didn’t think that W’s should be the only factor. In order to get the W the pitcher must go 5+ innings (unless it’s that weird scenario where the pitcher leaves in the 5th and the scorekeeper(?) can decide who should get the W) and has kept the team in the game.

Sir Veza - September 3, 2010 reply

I think a pitcher’s goal is to go out and not give up any runs. The W-L doesn’t matter for the pitcher as much as not giving up runs does. W-L is a team stat that a pitcher has little control over.

Zach Greinke is the consumate example of this. He is one of the best pitchers in the game, and does not have a sparkling record. Just look at King Felix this year.

Then, you have guys like Dice-K, Burnette, and even John Freakin Garland who win a shit-ton of games, but they are not very good at not giving up runs.

So, if you want your team of Garlands who win 20 games, you can have them. I’m taking the Greinkes and the (of late) Hansons.

Now you've changed the discussion

nice try though. I never said pitchers with a high win total in a given year is better than a pitcher who has a low win total. I said there is some value in the stat, especially when used in context with others. That is something you completely failed to respond to with your ramblings.

And Jon Garland has pitched pretty damn well this year. While giving up no runs makes it pretty easy to win does it not?

Mr. Sanchez - September 3, 2010 reply

But it does reflect some things:

1) They allow less runs than the other team’s pitcher does.
2) The position players like them therefore SCOREZ ZE POINTS

But seriously, it shows that the pitcher is keeping the team in the game with, at least, the opportunity for the team to win. That’s saying something IMO. Whatever quantitative value it holds is up for someone else to try and decide. I just think it’s note-worthy.

The discussion was that wins show that a pitcher allowed fewer runs than the other pitcher. This is not true. If I have to really break that down for you, then we need to start at the Baseball 101 class.

Wins, in and of themselves, are pointless. Wins, combined with other stats, are pointless. Wins are a pointless stat. The only stat that is more worthless than a pitcher’s W-L is the save.

Baseball 101

“The discussion was that wins show that a pitcher allowed fewer runs than the other pitcher. This is not true. If I have to really break that down for you, then we need to start at the Baseball 101 class.”

What I said was exactly correct. You can’t WIN a game if you let the other team score more runs than your team scores. Meaning that in order to get a W, your team has to score more RUNZ than the other team on that given day.

So, we can deduce the following from a pitcher who GETZ ZE WINZ:

1) They pitched at least 5 innings (with that one exception discussed earlier)
2) They, at the very least, gave the team the opportunity to win when they exited the game.
3) They allowed less runs to score than the opposing pitcher did.

Those things are valuable. Should that be all you look at? No. Does it add some value? Yes.

That’s all.

Sir Veza - September 3, 2010 reply

#2

What I mean by #2 is, they kept it close.

Now, of course there are going to be those outlier games where a pitcher leaves the 6th inning down by 6 and their team comes back to score 8 in the bottom half of the inning. Then again, those are outliers…

Sir Veza - September 3, 2010 reply

Perhaps you need to reread what you quote..

because you seem to be having significant trouble understanding what it says.

Mr. Sanchez - September 3, 2010 reply

Voted for Cy Hudson

adc62 - September 2, 2010 reply

Hudson named pitcher of the month for August

MBL1 - September 2, 2010 via mobile reply

awesome!

Omar Infante

Co-Team Leader and Catalyst with Prado.

BravesFTW - September 2, 2010 reply

jason heyward has been so clutch and has come through at all the right times

and he is a 20 year old rookie. The guy has cahones and there have been games where he has almost carried this team.

letsgoblue86 - September 2, 2010 reply

LVP

We should have a poll for LVP. For me, the offensive LVP is Yunel. While one can argue McOut would be a better choice, Yunel was expected to produce, and he did absolutely NOTHING. His glove was great, and I did love watching him when he was actually good, but he absolutely sucked this year.

ryantex - September 2, 2010 via mobile reply

Having an LVP vote

and having any choice other than McLouth would be a disservice. He was literally the worst player in the majors in the first half, in my opinion.

I agree with you, but Yunel was just such a huge disappointment. McLouth is (was) a 250 hitter who now is a minor league player.

ryantex - September 2, 2010 via mobile reply

Yunel had a big time let down this year for us, or maybe just for me anyways. I fully expected him to improve or at least stay the same as last year. Dang just think if we had last years Esco right now. These things happen though, just have to adapt and overcome.

vooodooo - September 2, 2010 reply

Pac,...

please help
http://www.talkingchop.com/2010/9/2/1665664/lineup-going-forward

Can we have a moratorium and the ill-thought out nicknnames like McOut or Farnsworthless (although at least that one is clever and humorous)?

maybe its just me…we know McLouth has struggled, but he most like has Ryan Church syndrome (he is struggling after running into a brick wall, and Church only ran into Beltran)

And Farnsworth really hasnt been that bad, there is clearly some sample size issues right now and those will get ironed out, and he will be back to a RP with around a 4.3 ERA who strikes out a good number of guys.

We only allow pitchers with sub-3 ERAs in our ‘pen, sorry. I think we all would love Nate to work out his troubles, just not with the big club in the midst of a World Series run. If he can prove he can hit in the minors (which he didn’t) we’d all love to have him back in the OF.

If McLouth didn't suck horribly...

before getting run over by that truck, I’d agree. But he did, so you can’t blame “Ryan Church syndrome” for his struggles, in my humble opinion that is. If that was when his struggles began, I’d agree, but McLouth has had huge problems dating back to spring. His numbers now are now different than they’ve been all year; from spring training, BT or AT (before truck, after truck).

it was a short time (relatively) that can (theoretically) be explained by small sample size….he was definately stuggling and I’m not arguing he is any good or isnt any good…i just think calling him McOut is stupid.

I concure. Those nicknames are getting old.

Note from Stark's article on ESPN about Heyward

And how about Jason Heyward? His .392 on-base percentage has been matched or beaten over a full season by exactly five other players this young in the live-ball era. See if you recognize the other five: Mel Ott, Ted Williams, Mickey Mantle, Alex Rodriguez and Al Kaline. Yikes.

5 dudes…thats it, and by my count…that list looks like those guys were all decent

Al Kaline

One of the best baseball names ever.

And his numbers could still go up...

considering he’s healthy again.

Mickey Mantle

was good at the baseballs. He was also good at the drunks.

Ergo

The Heymaker = equal parts premium bourbon, premium rocks, premium rocks glass. That’s right, Heyward’s awesomeness just retroactively invented bourbon on the rocks.

BrockSamson - September 2, 2010 reply

Wow, McCann with only 9% of the vote so far?

Proof that he’s underrated even amongst Braves fans.

Bronn - September 2, 2010 reply

This, this and THIS!

It’s sickening …. I don’t want to see anyone here complain next year when McCann gets out voted for the all-star game. If Braves fans can’t see how valuable he is how can we expect the rest of the nation to understand???

scstrato - September 2, 2010 reply

I don't think that saying...

Prado, Heyward, or Hudson would be this year’s team MVP over McCann is saying he’s not valuable. He’s easily the best C in the NL, but that doesn’t mean he’s our best player this year.

Not really. He hasn’t been our MVP. That doesn’t mean that I would rather have someone else at C though. McCann is the best offensive C in baseball right now. We just have some guys who have been more valuable to this team. We can win without McCann (David Ross?) but where would we be without Prado or Heyward?