Last night I broke some pretty big news in the Braves world, reporting that over-slot draftee Zach Alvord would not be signed by the team, and that the money originally allocated for him would be rerouted for a run at Cubs' third baseman Aramis Ramirez. Some people scoffed, some jaws fell on the floor, even Keith Law said, "No, that's not accurate at all."
Was it not accurate because it was coming from me, a blogger? What if that story came from Jon Heyman or Ken Rosenthal. How much more anecdotal is the Ramirez rumor than a rumor about Chone Figgins or Clint Barmes (both rumors that have surfaced in the past week). Luckily Mark Bowman did some digging and fished this info out of the organization:
Thus Wren did at least explore the possibility of acquiring Ramirez. But when the veteran third baseman was unwilling to adjust his contract, this option no longer made sense from a financial perspective.
Very rarely does an organization admit that they were going after a player in a trade, and the Braves essentially told Bowman yes, they did try to acquire Ramirez -- even going as far as talking about reworking a contract. That's way more than a casual conversation. Bowman confirms even more of that rumor here.
Thus my rumor, while it has now come to pass, was essentially validated by the team. If one half of the rumor is true, then perhaps the other parts are true as well. Therefore we can determine that the team is pinching pennies for some reason and that led to them changing their mind about signing Alvord -- and that's the part I'm actually much more certain about.
Beyond the specifics of pursuing Ramirez, this rumor also demonstrates that the Braves line of thinking is to try and acquire a player who would generally not be claimed on waivers because they are too expensive. It's good to see that the Atlanta front office is trying to win and stay competitive, but it's unfortunate that they are doing so at the expense of their future by not signing guys like Zach Alvord and Stefan Sabol.
For the record, while I did report (accurately) that the Braves were interested in Aramis Ramirez, I personally think that would be an awful move. I'm more than a little afraid that the team is going to sacrifice too much to try and acquire a player who won't really fit the description of what the Braves actually need (because that kind of player is hardly ever available through a waiver deal).
0 recs | 158 comments
Starting to think....
…that Keith Law is a D bag!
MikeHamptonStillOwesMeMoney - August 17, 2010
starting to think?
apoxonbothyourhouses - August 17, 2010
Why? K Law is easily the most intelligent baseball writer out there.
justincredubil02 - August 17, 2010
Truth
But he seems to really embrace said “Truth”, which makes him a bit of a douche, unfortunately.
buzzdeadwax - August 17, 2010
Meh. He entertains me, and I think he is like that for entertainment purposes only.
Let’s put it this way: I’d much rather read a snarky, douchey KLaw article than anything by Buster Olney, Steve Phillips or Hall of Famer Joe Morgan.
justincredubil02 - August 17, 2010
I like Olney
VivaLosBravos - August 17, 2010
I used to until about 60% of what he was reporting turned out to be false.
The man just makes crap up and calls it rumors now.
justincredubil02 - August 17, 2010
Just cause what he reports turns out false doesn't mean he made it up...
maybe he’s got bad sources, or sources that use him to float crap rumors. If you look at the vast majority of similar guys—Heyman, Mortenson, Schefter, David Aldridge, Chris Broussard, etc, I’d bet they have a pretty sizeable miss rate on the rumors that report too.
Mr. Sanchez - August 17, 2010
No, but Buster admittedly makes crap up in his articles. Things like “this is what I would do” appear in his rumor columns, and before you know it, it turns into something that is being reported as a rumor, and not speculation.
justincredubil02 - August 18, 2010
This kind of statement is why this article was written. A rumor is a rumor for a reason, because it is possible but not for certain.
BenDuronio - August 17, 2010
KLaw is a noted dick, especially when it comes to the Braves
his chats, when they discuss the Braves, are patronizing and intolerable. I think he believes they are an “old school” organization, and he believes the numbers revolution makes the “old school” obsolete. Some guys on both sides think it’s like a war, and I get the feeling the Klaw is one of them.
Londonjoe - August 17, 2010
KLaw loves our prospects and has spoken very highly of guys like Minor, Freeman, Tehran, Vizcaino, Heyward, etc.
You guys need to stop making up reasons to dislike people.
Everyone thinks KLaw is biased against their team.
justincredubil02 - August 17, 2010
In the last chat
was not particularly high on the Braves (and not a big fan of Minor- though I think his reasons have validity). It might just be that he’s pretty blunt
Londonjoe - August 17, 2010
This really isn’t true. He does not feel that the Braves are obsolete at all and he in fact loves the way we scout and manage our prospects. Many statistically driver writers or baseball minds don’t agree with how the Braves manage their big league ballclub or how they manage trades, it is not him in partiuclar.
BenDuronio - August 17, 2010
I may be mistaken...
but I thought Law said early this year how Braves’ pitching prospects are generally overrated. May have been Goldstein, Sickels or another, but I recall one of them saying that exact line in regards to the current stacked depth.
Mr. Sanchez - August 17, 2010
That’s his opinion and he always expresses his opinion without bias, or at least that is how it seems. He is right and he is wrong, but it doesn’t mean he dislikes the Braves or anything of the sort. It is reasonable for people to think that Delgado, Vizcaino, or Hoover are a bit over-rated, considering that the Braves have a history of hyping their prospects more than other teams.
BenDuronio - August 17, 2010
That is a sickels statement. He says at least twice a season that braves pitchers tend to get overrated.
yondaime4 - August 17, 2010 via mobile
Thanks yondaime...
I knew it came from one of them and wasn’t sure which. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Mr. Sanchez - August 17, 2010
And it's entirely possible that this is a valid observation
We’ve had some guys like Bruce Chen, Kyle Davies, and Chuck James to be very highly rated while in the system, only to turn very marginal at the big league level. I think it’s possible that Delgado or Vizcaino (I refuse to think it about Teheran) might be overrated. Still, the Braves’ system right now is so flush with depth that if we lose guys to attrition or if certain guys just don’t turn out like they project, we’ve got tons to go on. In addition to the top 4 guys, you’ve got guys like Lopez, Spruill, Oberholtzer, even Brandon Beachy suddenly dominating as a starter. No one can argue that we don’t have a ton of pitching talent.
Bronn - August 17, 2010
But is that sort of observation exclusive to the Braves?...
Has Homer Bailey lived up to his hype?
Or Joba Chamberlain and Brien Taylor?
Andrew Miller with the Tigers/Marlins?
How about the Mets’ with Pelfrey only recently living up to his hype, the old big 3 of Pulsipher, Wilson, and Isringhausen, among other Mets’ pitching failures?
Just because some guys haven’t lived up to the expectations here doesn’t mean Braves pitching prospects are overhyped compared to those of any other organization.
Mr. Sanchez - August 17, 2010
Basically, is that because...
Braves P prospects miss at a higher rate than normal Ps overall, or the Braves just produce more than normal so that they seem to miss more often? I’d put my money on the latter, not the former.
Mr. Sanchez - August 17, 2010
I subscribe to this theory
Pitching prospects are the hardest to predict and they have a higher failure rate. The Braves have been pumping out pitching prospects for years so it stands to reason that we would have a few more failures than most other teams and therefore receive the label of having “over-rated” pitching prospects.
ajones2522 - August 17, 2010
And it's entirely possible that this is a valid observation
We’ve had some guys like Bruce Chen, Kyle Davies, and Chuck James to be very highly rated while in the system, only to turn very marginal at the big league level. I think it’s possible that Delgado or Vizcaino (I refuse to think it about Teheran) might be overrated. Still, the Braves’ system right now is so flush with depth that if we lose guys to attrition or if certain guys just don’t turn out like they project, we’ve got tons to go on. In addition to the top 4 guys, you’ve got guys like Lopez, Spruill, Oberholtzer, even Brandon Beachy suddenly dominating as a starter. No one can argue that we don’t have a ton of pitching talent.
Bronn - August 17, 2010
I think it was Law or Sickels
Braves24 - August 17, 2010
Did Bowman confirm or refute your rumor?
I am not sure which. Yes, he confirmed that we explored acquiring Aramis Ramirez. From how it reads, we wanted Ramirez to give up the vesting of his 2012 option upon a trade and he wouldn’t, so nothing happened. That shows that, confirming your rumor, we were not signing a couple of overslot guys to save some money for somebody.
On the other Bowman also states that the Braves have tried and given up on acquiring Ramirez. This means that your headline about the Braves not signing Alvord to save money for Ramirez is not accurrate because at the deadline (yesterday) we had already given up on acquiring Ramirez.
So, I think yes and no on whether your rumor was confirmed.
cavebird - August 17, 2010
I was thinking the same thing cave...
although it may mean they found someone (other than Ramirez) to spend the money on and that was why the Alvord deal fell through.
Personally, I wish they’d signed at least one of the two youngsters, if not both. If they are worth it, then bring them in and deal with the big club finances as they come. Of course, this doesn’t put Liberty Media in a good light since it’d mean they were pretty tight with the checkbook for players the front office clearly felt was worth the sizeable investment. It also puts them in a dangerous position to be second guessed by fans (not that it won’t be done anyway as there always seems to be a group complaining about one thing or another), but seeing the complaints over Rendon for Rice, imagine a trade isn’t made, and in three years Alvord and Sabol are first round players, and the whiners will have a field day with this decision.
Mr. Sanchez - August 17, 2010
I seriously doubt either the Braves organization or the corpoorate budget-setting overlords at Liberty Media give a moonshit about the whining over personnel decisions by a handful of self-important bloggers.
Being second-guessed is simply part of the territory, no matter what is done or not done.
fandave - August 17, 2010
+1
MichaelProcton - August 17, 2010
I never said they did...
but it is a pain in the butt from my perspective, and you don’t know if there were some within the organization, perhaps some important folks in the organization, that agreed with the idea that it is folly to pass up on Alvord or Sabol for the maybe of a veteran off the waiver wire.
Mr. Sanchez - August 17, 2010
In fact, not only did I never said they caredwhat the fans say...
but I specifically said that second line you got there, so thanks for regurgitating things I already said and know.
Mr. Sanchez - August 17, 2010
that makes no sense to me, sorry.
fandave - August 17, 2010
2012 wouldn't vest with a trade.
All a trade would do is give him a $1 mil assignment bonus.
MichaelProcton - August 17, 2010
Actually
the 2012 option would fully vest if he was traded and activated the 2011 option…per Cot’s
bighop - August 17, 2010
But that wouldn't have anything to do with a trade.
If he picks it up, ’12 is guaranteed regardless of where he plays.
MichaelProcton - August 17, 2010
No
2012 is a club option for $16 million, with a $2 million buyout.
“2012 option becomes guaranteed if Ramirez … is traded & Ramirez exercises 2011 option”
knarf - August 17, 2010
Just making sure because I haven't seen it clearly stated anywhere...
We didn’t sign either Alvord or Sabol?
If we also didn’t get Ramirez… seems like we gave up two signings for nothing.
SuperNewb - August 17, 2010
Maybe...
But August isn’t over yet…If Gondeee’s rumor is true, then Aramis Ramirez cannot be the only player the FO is targeting. Why wouldn’t they have simply signed Alvord or Sabol when the talks for Ramirez crumbled? They are saving the cash.
I have no clue who they are targeting, though. And, if my opinion matters to anyone, if we don’t make a move that makes sense or if we don’t make a move at all, then we would be giving up two signings for nothing…At this point, I would much rather have those two guys in our system…
Jman781 - August 17, 2010
Wren is charged with all of various, competing responsibilities: manage the finances, stock the farm, and put the ML team in the WS this year, if at all possible. Right now, the farm is pretty well stocked, obviously, and we don’t really know how much financial flexiblity Wren has or potentially could go get for the right deal. But I do think it is probable that he is urgently looking for another bat, preferably a 3B, and is trying to maintain as much financial flexiblity as possible in order to maximize the chances of being able make that happen.
fandave - August 17, 2010
I like you
you should comment more often.
VivaLosBravos - August 17, 2010
well, thanks.
be warned though, others disagree.
fandave - August 17, 2010
Not necessarily
That money has been saved in case Wren (more than likely) does go after someone – at the very least for bench depth.
sag969 - August 17, 2010
Martin confirmed the rumor through a friend of a friend who saw Aramis at a Men's clothing store
Just kidding, gondeee. Seriously though, it’s pretty amazing how relevant TC has become in the world of Atlanta Braves news. Kudos on scooping the paid professionals!
KoKo the Monkey (T-Bone) - August 17, 2010
Guys like KLAW are scared of bloggers like you Gondeee (I mean, you did just scoop his ass). He wants to believe that your info is not accurate at all and you can’t be dependable, but he’s wrong.
bwellnjonesco - August 17, 2010
KLaw isn’t a reporter. His job is not to find scoops. He is a scout, whose job is to tell us what players will be good.
justincredubil02 - August 17, 2010
He writes about prospects, aka reports about prospects. Gondeee made a post about us not signing two prospects when everyone was saying we probably were going to sign atleast one of them.
Maybe the fact that he responded to Gondeee’s rumor shows you something, IDK…
bwellnjonesco - August 17, 2010
Despite your feelings on the subject, I think Keith talks to executives of nearly each team and just did not feel like he heard the same thing that Martin heard. It could have been a newspaper writer and I feel that Law would have said the same thing.
BenDuronio - August 17, 2010
FUCK the media.
YOU GUYS keep bringing me the real scoop right here on this site.
THAT’S what I pay the membership fee for!!
What…?
It’s free?
BONUS!!
HalleyGator - August 17, 2010
I Lol'ed
and Rec’d
ROBravo - August 17, 2010
Color me surprised that the Braves were actually interested in Ramirez. I thought for sure that was a bad rumor.
FWIW, I didn’t disbelieve it because of the source, it just seemed too incredulous.
UMDBHIK - August 17, 2010
Also, Aramis Ramirez is therefore a moron.
“Hey, Aramis. Frank Wren here. The Atlanta Braves are very interested in your services for the remainder of this year. But you make too goddam much money. We would like to renegotiate your deal. Whadda say, holmes?”
“What? You mean take less money for a shot at a World Series title? NEVAR!” (click)
(dead line)
UMDBHIK - August 17, 2010
You think the guy who wouldn’t give up millions of dollars is the moron in that situation?
Lennox - August 17, 2010
If the only reason to play baseball is money, then no.
However, if, and this is a big if, but if rings are important to ballplayers, maybe I give up playing for a horseshit organization like the Cubs when an opportunity to play in the postseason presents itself.
Call me crazy.
UMDBHIK - August 17, 2010
Agreed
Once you’ve made a lot of money, as AR has, don’t you make some sacrifices to attain the highest goal in your chosen profession? Even though my pay is effectively decreasing as the years go by, I am actually more bummed out about the fact that I don’t get to actually accomplish anything worthwhile. So yeah, if I already had a lot of money, I would take a pay cut to attempt to achieve greatness. Only a fool would not.
buzzdeadwax - August 17, 2010
this is his last big contract, so no way he restructures it. Especially for an organization he has no ties to.
JFP - August 17, 2010
No one said he should restructure his deal for the Braves. I will reiterate what I said – unless he has a really good reason to stay in Chicago, there’s no reason not to leave a bit of $ on the table in order to attempt to accomplish the highest achievment in his chosen profession. I guess I should have ended my post with Only a fool or someone who doesn’t give a shit about a WS ring would not.
You have to view this from his perspective – he doesn’t live paycheck to paycheck, he doesn’t have to work until he’s 65, and if he’s managed his finances at all, he should have all the money he needs to live very comfortably for the rest of his life. And just because this is his last relatively “big contract”, does not mean he won’t get smaller contracts (that are worth more than you and I will make in our careers combined) in the future.
Finally, this speaks to a short-sighted way of thinking. If AR were to come to ATL and carry this team deep into the playoffs, he could parlay that into one more “big contract”. See Beltran, Carlos or any other player who got a big contract after having a great playoff run.
buzzdeadwax - August 17, 2010
+1
Jman781 - August 17, 2010
Actually, it appears the Braves said that. They aren’t interested because he wouldn’t restructure it, so they said he should restructure his deal t come here.
You don’t know what his expenses are or how he’s managed his finances, so this is a pointless point.
Mr. Sanchez - August 17, 2010
Did you not read the original post, especially the part that is block quoted from Mark Bowman. Aramis was going to have to restructure his contract for the Braves to afford him. He didn’t want to.
Furthermore, you say he doesn’t have to live paycheck to paycheck, but how do you know that for a certainty? It’s very possible that he does, and will continue to. Let’s first consider how much he doesn’t see of each check. First there is the 35% federal tax he will be hit with, then the 3% Illinois state tax, then the 5-10% that his agent is taking. So he doesn’t see roughly 45% of his check. That’s not even considering what kind of houses or vehicles that he owns and the price to keep them going. So, yeah I can see where he could be living paycheck to paycheck, or just wanting to get as much as possible out of a short career.
JFP - August 17, 2010
he’s made north of $70 million dollars over his career. 55% of that is still a shit ton of money and probably at least 10 times what the average american will make in their lifetime. Instead of arguing a bullshit point that aramis could very well be living paycheck to paycheck, it’s reasonable to assume that he is well off and will continue to be for a very long time.
telemakhos - August 17, 2010
Look at what you wrote
That is what I was responding to. I didn’t mean that he should give the Braves specifically some sort of deal because he has a warm feeling toward them or because he feels any loyalty to them.
As for the money, it’s his business, so he needs to do what he feels is right. However, if he can’t live extremely comfortable on the ~$35 million he’s already made, then the remaining ~$17 million (base salary minus the deductions you list) probably won’t be that much of a help, will it? If the extra $2 million or so is the only reason he won’t go to a contender, that is sad. If it’s that AND he doesn’t want to leave CHI/come to ATL, that’s a different story.
buzzdeadwax - August 17, 2010
If he's living paycheck to paycheck
He needs to stop buying so much unnecessary stuff. If a person is able to live paycheck to paycheck making 15-30k per year, there is no way his upkeep needs to be that much money. Time to start selling some of the 17 cars off (and no, I don’t know how many things he has or where his money is going).
Pavy848 - August 17, 2010
This
Esepcially when you consider that Chipper’s due back in 2011 (hopefully), so Ramirez becomes a man without an island.
Yakker - August 17, 2010
+1
For reference, see: Jones, Chipper.
Old Braves' Fan - August 17, 2010
Chipper is unusual in that regard...
very unusual. Most are not willing to sacrifice 8 figures for a ring, especially if they don’t think they can make it up in future contracts, endorsements, etc. When you consider how often these highly paid athletes end up bankrupt within a decade of retirement, you get a better understanding of just how much they need to get every last cent they can get.
Just cause Chipper is willing to sacrifice 8+ figures of cash for a better chance at winning doesn’t mean others are, and in fact very few professional athletes would do it.
Mr. Sanchez - August 17, 2010
The bankruptcy argument is hogwash...
If they can’t manage their wealth, that’s their problem…Spoiled athletes. The play a dang sport. I know; I know: Baseball players bring in more revenue than a fireman, teacher, cop, etc., thus they are only paid what they are “worth.” Hogwash. God forbid Aramis makes only, say $15 million between this year and next to have a shot at a WS…If he can’t live off of that, he’s a fool.
What’s Ramirez owed for the remainder of this season? 5 million? I have no idea, but give me 5 million right now, and I won’t have to work again in my life.
Jman781 - August 17, 2010
And you aren't them, with their expenses...
I wasn’t saying anything on whether or not they should be able to avoid bankruptcy in those situations, just that these guys don’t really seem to understand it very well and spend it in vast quantities making them likely desire every last cent available and unlikely to be willing to trade 8 figures in salary for a better chance at winning a ring.
(for the record, I’d agree with you on it taking a fool a lot of times to waste so much money so swiftly, but as said above, that was not pertinent to my point.)
Mr. Sanchez - August 17, 2010
I know...
And he wouldn’t be the first athlete to value money over winning…It’s just agitating.
But, hey, Latrell Sprewell has mouths to feed…
Jman781 - August 17, 2010
Nevermind that Ramirez lives in the DR where an American dollar is worth like 20 bucks.
cbwilk - August 17, 2010
he doesn’t live there year round, though. And he has to pay income taxes here in America
JFP - August 17, 2010
I'll cry for him only making $8MM after taxes...
When he gets paid $14.5MM next season.
I don’t particularly care whether he chooses to restructure or not. He signed a deal, he’s in a position that whomever controls that contract has to honor it.
If he doesn’t want to restructure, he’s under no obligation to do so. Everyone may decry that as greedy or whatever, but I don’t think it’s fair of me to hold anyone else to my individual level of morality (which is probably much more lax than 90% of the American population).
If I was asked to take a pay cut to work for another company tomorrow, I wouldn’t do it. I like my current situation. Aramis could like his. We just don’t know.
-C
cthabeerman - August 17, 2010
Which matters how?...
Does he have an apartment or condo in Chicago that costs a few mill (see Eddy Curry)? High priced cars, jewlery, pay for his extended family and multiple friend, perhaps use a scam artist for investment “advice” like Raghib Ismail and others did?
The fact that a dollar goes farther in the Domincan than it does here is beside the point of whatever his financial situation is (that no one here knows one way or the other, myself included) or what his priorities are betwee making money and playing playoff baseball.
Mr. Sanchez - August 17, 2010
There are a lot of subtly racist assumption in that first paragraph.
cbwilk - August 17, 2010
It wasn't intended...
although it does seem to be more public with athletes of color than caucasians. But it can be any number of problems, from extravagent expenses on cars, homes, gaudy jewlery, etc, to using the wrong investment advisors, to paying for way too many friends and family to retire, to drugs/alcohol, and other avenues for rich people to waste their money. I guess it seems subtly racist because more often than not, we hear of these stories (and the wastes of their money that caused them) about non-caucasians.
Mr. Sanchez - August 17, 2010
I think its more stereotypical assumption than racist assumption.
JFP - August 17, 2010
Stereotypical against who? Most of those statements wouldn’t have been made about a white guy.
cbwilk - August 17, 2010
Disagree...
See Lenny Dykstra for the comment about scam artist investing.
Apparently Jack Clark and his penchant for cars, or Clemens needing to sell a Bentley to pay legal fees.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3469271
See Birdman Anderson and his drug problems/desire to get every inch of his body painted.
Just because you assumed race was a factor doesn’t mean it was there. I’d agree the story seems to be much more common with African-American athletes than caucasian ones, but there are certainly plenty of stupid white guys that can’t control their spending/finances either.
Mr. Sanchez - August 17, 2010
Add Mark Brunell, among others...
to the white guys getting bad investment advice column. Saying athletes are stupid with money is no more racist than saying some are set for lifes and begin highly successful business careers from them (see Magic Johnson, among others).
Mr. Sanchez - August 17, 2010
Mark Brunell recently went bankrupt because of a series of bad investment deals.
MichaelProcton - August 17, 2010
Wow
So in reading that post, your first thought was “he must be talking about minorities”?
That speaks to your own mindset concerning racial attitudes and in your interpretation of his statement, you have revealed your own mental associations with his statement. Thats not tolerance.
jeg - August 17, 2010
cb may be particularly sensitive to racism toward minorities
However, let’s not go overboard with the “Woe is White America” thing either. White people in America (and indeed, all over the world) have it better, ON AVERAGE, than people of other skin colors. So when white people imply or claim “reverse racism”, it comes off as incredibly whiny. Just saying.
buzzdeadwax - August 17, 2010
He was talking about a minority, so yes, yes it was.
cbwilk - August 18, 2010
If you wanted a racist remark on how athletes go broke...
I would have just said the following…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v8qozjTJ-c
Mr. Sanchez - August 20, 2010
And he couldn’t possibly play out his current deal for all it’s worth without sacrificing money and then go play for a contender once he becomes a FA? He has every right as a professional player to go for as much money as he can get, just because he doesn’t want to come to atlanta for less money doesn’t signify him being moronic. 16 million dollars is a lot to just pass up, no matter how much he’s made in his career
McCann's the Man - August 17, 2010
I'd take him here...
BeantownVol - August 17, 2010
Seems like FW knows this team really needs one more bat and while he may not be close to a deal now, he’s got to keep his resources free in case a deal comes along. Maybe he doesn’t get the deal he’s looking for but he has to be prepared for it. It would suck If he spent that money now and then had a chance to acquire a difference maker but couldn’t because of money. Another hitting prospect would be nice but we already drafted several intriguing bats this year and will probably do so again next year.
ajones2522 - August 17, 2010
exactly
fandave - August 17, 2010
Not that this matters, but I believe that Gondee’s scoop was the first time that TC was mentioned as a source of news on Rotoworld.
Ivan the Great - August 17, 2010
I'm actually not sure of that.
MichaelProcton - August 17, 2010
Really? I guess I missed a day. Huh. Well, if it then case, go TC for getting pulled onto Rotoworld again.
Ivan the Great - August 17, 2010
Sorry.
Didn’t mean to come across as so short. But I thought I had seen us as a souce on there before. Definitely have seen the SBN site for my Carolina Hurricanes listed.
MichaelProcton - August 17, 2010
I like that the FO is trying to get a deal done, but we would really be handcuffed with that awful contract. I know they were trying to renegotiate, but it’s not a smart baseball move to take on that much money at a position where we already have a large chunk of payroll devoted. Considering finances, I don’t think there are any better options than shifting Prado to 3rd and Infante to 2nd with Conrad providing relief at both positions.
ducheneaux13 - August 17, 2010
For what it’s worth gondee, another team in a different sport that I follow the SB Nation blog of had its main writer post a rumor as “going to happen almost immediately” about a player trade and he ended up being completely wrong about it. He offered a really weak defense about how his secret source was someone who was in a position to know and he had implicit trust in them. He never identified the source or how they supposedly were in a position to know. At least in your case you weren’t just talking smack.
Interesting that you mention Jon Heyman. His CNN/SI column is generally fine, but I don’t get why anyone would follow him on Twitter. He passes on every crazy rumor he hears and most of them amount to nothing. If Heyman says it on a tweet, it’s probably NOT true.
I’m not sure that I want Frank Wren trying to get help. Maybe just doing nothing would be better than bring in some stiff we don’t really want for a short period of time and giving up useful assets for him.
Zontar - August 17, 2010
well done gondee!
a journo by name of gondee
no neophyte rookie was he
he scooped all the pundits
and the best of all funbits
is everyone’s quoting TC!
blazon - August 17, 2010
Regardless of how it plays out...
Cheers to FW on this one.
We already signed an incredible draft class this season without those two. They would have been icing on the cake, surely, but like any prospect, their future can go either way.
With a great draft class already in-hand, why not try to snag a guy that’s going to help our team with a postseason push this season??
What I dislike is all the speculation around the supposed signability of these two players. They were drafted months ago, haven’t signed, and there’s no report of their intention to sign (but periodic reports saying they likely won’t) until deadline day?? What changed??
It just seems counter-intuitive that every report said that their signing was unlikely until the day of, and then everyone’s tweeting and reporting and texting or whatever the fuck these guys do stating that it’s fish in a barrel, done deal, they were going to sign all along. And then it doesn’t happen.
So who’s wrong?? Frank Wren, these reporters who dig up all this nonsense, or poor, lovable ol’ Gondee??
To be honest, I don’t care. It appears as if we’re trying to go after a bat, and I’m okay with that.
-C
cthabeerman - August 17, 2010
As for the prospects...
…nothing changed. MLB doesn’t allow over slot deals to be released until the deadline. Therefore, there is an intentional news blackout until the end with the overslot guys.
cavebird - August 17, 2010
wow you are sharp...
never knew that…overslot – new word for me in my eighth decade…as we say in the UK, ta very much…
blazon - August 17, 2010
Except there's not...
Look at the past week on MLBTR, and there’s plenty of above-slot deals being reported.
-C
cthabeerman - August 17, 2010
for the past week, there may have been anouncements, but the draft was in june. There’s a reason those deals don’t get announced until the week before the deadline.
telemakhos - August 17, 2010
I understand this...
But it’s not like there haven’t been above-slots announced prior to yesterday.
Regardless, the rampant, “He’s not signing, he is signing,” conjecture is exactly that: conjecture. I’ll take it with a grain of salt from here on out, because it’s fairly apparent that even those “in the know” have no clue whether what they’re reporting has any merit.
-C
cthabeerman - August 17, 2010
But in this case...
you’ve got Bowman indicating a deal with Alvord has been set for a weeks at least, with the announcement waiting until yesterday (similar to Mike Minor last year), and Oregon’s coach saying he thought Sabol was signing. That’s not “no clue” to me, that’s guys pretty close to the situations describing what was appears to be a lot more than just conjecture.
Mr. Sanchez - August 17, 2010
By definition,
Talking to the Oregon coach and forming a hypothesis based upon that information is conjecture. Which is fine, it’s a solid hypothesis to make, but it’s still based upon incomplete evidence.
The other case is the more intriguing of the two, since a deal was supposedly in place for some time. I just find it convenient that this development wasn’t reported until yesterday, and inconvenient that it fell through. But it really doesn’t behoove a reporter to hold back information when they can scoop everyone else (unless that would out their source or piss them off, leading to no more info), so it’s likely just happenstance that everything developed that way.
Perhaps I’m just annoyed that everyone reported that these two were so “unsignable,” when they were both apparently the opposite.
-C
cthabeerman - August 17, 2010
well apparently they were unsignable, considering they didn’t sign. Wren says there’s no connection between not signing them and a potential waiver claim and jim callis says that it simply fell through because they both wanted 7 figure offers
telemakhos - August 17, 2010
When it came to this year's class...
There are several things that would lead to top players’ signability improving right before the deadline:
AgentsAdvisers are trying to get every penny for their clients so they can brag about how well they did to their future clientsMichaelProcton - August 17, 2010
The sad thing is
How a guy would rather have a few extra million then the shot at a World Series Ring.
SuperHeyward - August 17, 2010
I would salivate if Wren made a deal for Bryce Harper lol
Albert K - August 17, 2010
Well, not surprisingly (though I didn’t see I lot of splash in the media about this), Washington inked him late yesterday… $9.9 million bonus before he ever laces up the spikes as a pro. If any of the rest of their draft is any good (i.e., if they have anybody to pitch other than Strasburg), we’re gonna have to reckon with Washington within the next 2 years or so.
carpengui - August 17, 2010
Their farm system is so bereft it’s scary.
cbwilk - August 17, 2010
Huh. Thought they had some reasonable baseball people running the show. Bizarre.
carpengui - August 17, 2010
I’ve seen all their teams this year and there’s pretty much no one to get excited about. Any prospects like Chris Marrero or Mike Burgess or Destin Hood all have major question marks. Other guys like Danny Espinosa are solid players, but they don’t really jump out at you. Their pitching is ridiculously thin.
cbwilk - August 17, 2010
I recall a Beckett Prospect Issue from a couple years back that gave a future forecast for Marrero as “the next Pujols”.
10-4 - August 17, 2010
Man was that off. He’s a really good hitter, he’s got a ton of pop and the whole in his swing has gotten smaller each year, but he’s so slow it’s painful to watch and while he’s made huge strides since becoming a first baseman, he’s still very rough over there. He’s as good a hitter as there is in the system but his margin for error is low. He’s basically got to hit a lot of homers to justify what he does.
cbwilk - August 18, 2010
In the system, yeah...
But they’ve got a lot of potentially good and young arms already up in the bigs.
MichaelProcton - August 17, 2010
But that’s a problem right there when all of your guys are already there. The shelf is empty and all the ingredients are in the pot. You better hope it’s some good stew.
cbwilk - August 18, 2010
At least there are ingredients o'plenty.
MichaelProcton - August 18, 2010
knarf
this surprises me too…
knarf - August 17, 2010
yep
I think they will be our main competition within the next few years
Braves24 - August 17, 2010
Doubt it.
The Phils and Mets won’t go away with the money they can throw at their problems.
MichaelProcton - August 17, 2010
A world series ring would likely bring that missing money back later in his life
He would make appearences and such and could get more money from that.
Pavy848 - August 17, 2010
i wish we would have put out the money for alvord, he could have eventually been a big time prospect. i had the oppurtunity to play against him and he was a few years younger than me and out performing all of us. However, you win some and ya lose some. I trust ole Frank.
HawksBaseball2 - August 17, 2010
Of course, FW said this morning
That there is no relation between the unsigned draft picks and the possibility of pursuing a player on waivers. You can take that how you will, of course-it could be double talk. It should also be noted that Chone Figgins isn’t on waivers.
Bronn - August 17, 2010
How do you know?
People keep saying that a player is/isn’t on waivers…Where’s a good source to determine whether this is the case or not? If a player is placed on waivers, is this automatically public news? Just curious.
Jman781 - August 17, 2010
Actually, I don't
I remember reading it somewhere that Figgins had not been placed on waivers, but I can’t seem to find it. I thought it was MLBTR, but since I can’t now find it, I might just have misinterpreted something I read a while ago.
I’m sure there’s a list that someone out there can access to find out who’s on waivers, but I don’t know where. MLBTR keeps a running list of guys who’ve cleared waivers, but it’s a pretty short list right now.
Bronn - August 17, 2010
Today...
…MLBTR reported Figgins (along with a bunch of other 3B options) as a player they have no knowledge regarding waivers about.
cavebird - August 17, 2010
Here's a post from Rotoworld:
Important tweets from Baker (@gbakermariners):
(Sunday)(Friday)
MichaelProcton - August 17, 2010
Someone correct me if I'm wrong
but according to the Collective Bargaining Agreement, I believe, the names of players placed on waivers can not be disclosed. Obviously information leaks, which is why we know some players that have been placed on or cleared waivers, but there is no official public source to obtain this information.
knarf - August 17, 2010
correct
telemakhos - August 17, 2010
I don’t suppose Frank had any comments about the possibility of signing any remaining unsigned daftees before the deadline (now nearly 2 hours passed as I write this)?
carpengui - August 17, 2010
Answering my own question: looks like we’re done. And a correction – the deadline was midnight EDT last night.
carpengui - August 17, 2010
Better be careful
If you suggest we might get someone and we don’t, people might start crucifying you like they do DOB for the whole Peavy, Griffey and Furcal thing.
Seriously though, you guys do a great job.
The Goche - August 17, 2010
Behind the curtain
It’s unfortunate that we don’t have all the knowledge that the front office has. No one does, that’s why these things are called rumors.
Let’s not call other writers like Keith Law any names. He has the same opportunity to debunk what I’ve written as I have to debunk what he wrote. He does a good job, and if he has a source that says my information is bogus, then I hope he eventually lets us know. Though he’s probably pretty busy writing about prospects that did sign.
The Bowman articles I interpret as both confirming the original rumor that the Braves have interest in Ramirez, and at the same time putting the rumor to rest by saying the team no longer has interest.
One great thing that came out of this is a bit more insight into the inner workings of the front office.
gondeee - August 17, 2010
Yeah, while we ALL have a compulsive craving for additional/inside information, we’re often handicapped by the fact that when info finally does become available, it has often already been overcome by events… hence the annoying tendancy that rumors have of being raised and debunked within the same day.
But right, wrong, or somewhere in the middle: it’s great fodder for discussion!
carpengui - August 17, 2010
Agreed...
And then the Braves do something that was completely off the radar (like Ankiel/Farnsworth/Gonzo)…
Jman781 - August 17, 2010
and thereby confirm the intrinsic value of all our rosterbation, speculation and conjectural musings.
fandave - August 17, 2010
what's also unfortunate though...
is the short response lacking any real information as to why he thought your claim lacked any merit. I get that the point of twitter is the short message, but like I was told often as a kid, it’s not always what you say, but how you say it… The response from Keith Law comes across as snarky and belittling. And as you state in your original post, it would seem that at least part of your assertion (the Braves interest in Aramis) was accurate.
knarf - August 17, 2010
But he didn't need to respond to the rumor's parts.
All he needed to do was respond to its totality. And on that case, he may well have been correct.
MichaelProcton - August 17, 2010
LSU Tiger fans in mourning
Zach Lee signed at the last minute with the Dodgers – $5.25 million bonus (almost doubling the franchise bonus record) for the 28th pick. Was gonna be playing quarterback for LSU sometime soon.
carpengui - August 17, 2010
Three first rounders did not sign
Arizona’s 6th pick; SDiego’s 9th, and Milwaukee’s 14th.
carpengui - August 17, 2010
And the DBacks pick...
Loux, is a free agent to be soon.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/08/barret-loux-to-be-granted-free-agency.html
Mr. Sanchez - August 17, 2010
And what of this from DOB?
MichaelProcton - August 17, 2010
A Big Bat for the Braves
I Know John schurhous is the president of the Braves but if he was still the GM he would have gone and got someone that can hit the Ball. It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball? The Braves have been lucky to be where they are now. it won’t Last unless we can get Help.
jayball - August 17, 2010
I like you. I like the way you misspell Schuerholz and the fact you randomly capitalize words within your sentences.
ChrisK562 - August 17, 2010
Allow yourself some time when reading and rereading this sentence, folks…
-C
cthabeerman - August 17, 2010
Double negative, so I think he is saying “It’s rough to sit through these games and have somone that can hit a ball.”
I agree, I hate when teams hit and score runs.
ChrisK562 - August 17, 2010
ChrisK562 - August 17, 2010
I wish to learn more about your ministry. Do you have some sort of literature I could subscribe to? A Twitter feed? How about an interstate billboard?
UMDBHIK - August 17, 2010
*someone
ChrisK562 - August 17, 2010
Me=FAIL
ChrisK562 - August 17, 2010
What do you expect
when you pull for GT? I kid, I kid.
ROBravo - August 17, 2010
Ruh roh, a UGA fan!
ChrisK562 - August 17, 2010
Yup
No worries tho, I only hate that Ramblin’ Wreck once a year lol.
ROBravo - August 17, 2010
I'd rather
use my hate more on the Gaytors and that nasty Creamsicle orange team with their purina checkerboard endzone scheme.
ROBravo - August 17, 2010
Question on the school part of signing...
Alvord’s dad said someone would have to pay for his son passing up a college education.
My question is, I had read some things about MLB having a program to pay for minor leaguers to go to college. Is that true? Anyone know any of the details about MLB paying for the college education of draft picks/players? You got anything on this cb ya lazy bastard?
Mr. Sanchez - August 17, 2010
i think this is saying that that alvord and his dad value either college education or the experience of playing college ball very highly, so that only a lot of money could pry them away. just my $0.02, i could be totally wrong
atl192485 - August 17, 2010
That's how I interpreted it as well.
Braves have definitely shown a willingness to pay for college in the past.
MichaelProcton - August 17, 2010
Maybe so...
but that doesn’t answer whether MLB has a progam in place to cover higher education expenses for young players.
Mr. Sanchez - August 17, 2010
Didn’t gosselin get money in his contract to finish his education? If milb has a program for that sort of thing, specifically allocating money for it in a contract wouldn’t make sense.
telemakhos - August 17, 2010
If a player signs out of HS, thus forgoing his college eligibility, the team is required to pay for college for him, whenever he decides to go. So yes, the team has to pay for your college, even if it ends up being years later. Heck, Brian McCann could make the Braves pay for him to go to college.
cbwilk - August 18, 2010
Thanks
Mr. Sanchez - August 18, 2010
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