Kevin C. Cox - Getty Images
The Braves were loyal to Chuck James too long. They were loyal to Kyle Davies too long. They were certainly loyal to Jeff Francoeur way too long. But the Frank Wren regime may be redefining how long the Braves are willing to wait on their guys to produce before moving on. The Yunel Escobar trade is certainly proof of that.
Perhaps it was Yunel's lack of ability to get along with his teammates, but one half season of poor production and the Braves chose to punt. As much as this highlights how the new GM of the Braves views loyalty to his players, it also highlights the importance of removing a distraction like Yunel from a contending team.
During Spring Training this year a Braves player told me a story about a time in the minors when he had gotten hit by a pitch (which he later realized he deserved) the at-bat after he had hit a homerun in which he had flipped the bat and took his time rounding the bases. He said, "off the record, I Yunel'ed it." And this was a player whose locker was right next to Escobar's (of course he wasn't around at the time), but that told me a lot about how seriously Yunel's teammates took him.
Baseball America has a good review of the prospects we got in the trade. Here are some more reactions from around the web:
CBSSports.com's Danny Knobler has an interesting take:
[...] the Red Sox will tell you how much last year's midseason trade for Gonzalez stabilized their infield and was a huge key in carrying them to the playoffs.
The New York Daily News has some interesting insider info:
This is Bobby Cox’s last year, the Braves are serious contenders, and Escobar is not well-liked on the team because of a persistent lack of hustle. "Bobby hates Escobar," a Brave told me earlier this season. "Escobar doesn’t have a lot of friends in the clubhouse."
It's interesting, to say the least. The Braves obviously soured on Escobar. Gonzalez is playing over his head with a .497 SLG but Collins and Pastornicky are intriguing prospects. It's a deal that could help both clubs if Escobar gets his act together.
Right, IF Escobar gets his act together. Next up is Jon Heyman of SI, via a tweet:
bobby cox has to be thrilled to be rid of underachieving space cadet yunel escobar. alex gonzalez is a nice early going away gift for cox.
From a tweet by Kevin Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus:
I'm writing up the #Braves/#BlueJays deal for this afternoon. Nobody on this earth loves Tim Collins more than I.
From a tweet by Ken Rosenthal:
Braves REPEATEDLY and STRONGLY denied they would trade Escobar. It's that time of year, folks! Like the trade, tho. AGon elite glove
And potentially the best tweet from FauxFrankWren:
Guess Toronto missed our new stat. ESCOBAR: Emperical System of Counting Official Bat-flips And Reprimands
More trade reaction tomorrow.
0 recs | 470 comments
The Phillies (on Phightin Phils—and everywhere else in the nation) are happy that we made this trade…given time, I think they’ll realize why it was a good idea for the Braves.
Joseph_C - July 14, 2010
The Phillies are crazy for the most part anyhow….
Joseph_C - July 14, 2010
Why?
I don’t get it.
This move is right in every possible way for the 2010 Braves.
- Removed Escobar, a poor teammate who dragged the team down time and time again by his on field actions (or inactions)
- Removed Escobar, who is having an absolute awful time at the plate so far this year
- Added Gonzalez, a pretty good defensive shortstop. Not Escobar (on his good nights) level good, but pretty good. There isn’t a serious drop off here.
- Added Gonzalez, a player who has been on an absolute tear this year. Yeah, the chances of him continuing at this pace for the rest of the year are probably lowish, but even if he gets back to his normal career averages it’ll be better than what Escobar was doing.
Now, for the Braves in 2011+, is it the best move? Maybe not, but I don’t really care about 2011 right now. I care about 2010 and this awesome season and Cox’s last year. Dumping Escobar certainly helps us in that regard, so please, explain to me why anyone in the NL East is happy about this trade.
sag969 - July 14, 2010
"The future is no place to place your better days."
- Dave Matthews
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 14, 2010
Because Gonzalez is a good bet to be the worse play over the rest of 2010
The guy has a career OBP under .300
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
Alright
Lets say all his numbers are halved in 2nd half:
First half: # HR 17 · # RBI 50 · # Runs 47
Cut in half: # HR ~8 – # RBI 25 – # Runs ~25
Surprise, those numbers are still better than Yunel so far this season: # HR 0 · # RBI 19 · # Runs 28
So, even if Gonzalez does half as bad as he did in the first half, his numbers will still be better than Yunel’s first half numbers.
sag969 - July 14, 2010
Those are some terrible numbers to base an evaluation on
What about something like OBP, where Gonzalez was already significantly worse than Escobar? And as I mentioned further down, 8 HR from Gonzalez from here on out isn’t even close to a given. He’s been incredibly lucky on the so far.
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
Congrats
You found one statistic in which Yunel has done better this year. Please, find me another!
No matter what statistics you look at, Gonzalez has simply been the better player this year. I really can’t believe you’re arguing me on this.
sag969 - July 14, 2010
AGon has been better for 200 PA for one half season
His career numbers are terrible.
kbertling353 - July 14, 2010
AGon?
That invalidates any argument you make :-p
sag969 - July 14, 2010
So how exactly will either of their CAREER numbers win us any games this year?
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
I also can't believe you're using the number of runs scored as an argument
kbertling353 - July 14, 2010
We're not arguing about what's already happen, but rather what will happen
The fact that Gonzalez has gotten lucky on HRs so far means nothing going forward.
Also, OBP way more important that the stats you’ve referred to, and Escobar also has a lower K rate and a better BB rate.
Oh and for their respective careers Escobar has the higher average, obp, and slugging percentage.
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
Just curious...
How does one get lucky on home runs??
Are these home runs coming off the glove of Laynce Nix or the head of Jose Canseco?? Are they bouncing off the top of the wall and over??
Last I checked, if the ball goes over the fence, it’s a home run. Sure, there are short porches and what-not, but a home run doesn’t happen by luck the vast majority of the time.
I’m all for using better statistics and what-not, but to call his home run total lucky just doesn’t make sense. Sure, it’s a fluke, but luck doesn’t really factor into the equation.
-C
cthabeerman - July 14, 2010
not to say he doesn't deserve them
but he’s saying if 10 barely cleared the fence, then we really can’t count on that power again (especially at Turner)
he’s talking about predictive value.
kbertling353 - July 14, 2010
All 10 of those would have been out here, too.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
Hitting an inordinate number or balls that barely clear the fence
Maybe luck isn’t the best word for it, but if you’re hitting a ton of balls that are barely clearing the fence (like 10 of Gonzalez’s) they’re not likely to continue doing so at the same rate. Especially when you’re moving from a home park that is incredibly friendly to HR to one that suppresses them. A lot of the HRs that Gonzalez has hit wouldn’t have been HR in Turner Field.
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
Not true.
Turner overlays show the vast majority of them would have been out.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
Defense
acie4mvp - July 14, 2010
If someone’s career year consists of an OBP of less than .300, no thanks!
If “absolute tear” means he has 23 more hits than Escobar with about 4x as many Ks – No thanks!
justincredubil02 - July 15, 2010
Underachieving Space Cadet!
BigG1392 - July 14, 2010
Yes he is.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
Clubhouse
I like the move, if you’ve read or listened to any Brave interview this year, I’m sure you’ve head at least once, that person talk about how great the club house is this year. They just traded the weak-link in the club house for a guy that is “well liked” and actually plays hard. Loved Esco and I hope he turns himself around, but you have to look fwd. Tough to trade someone with such a high ceiling and our “MVP” from last season, but Ill take it…
War_Drum - July 14, 2010
Buster Olney (via tweet)
Tremendous trade for the Braves. Gonzalez has very affordable $2.5m option for 2011. Said Frank Wren on phone: “Without that, would not have made the deal.” Also, the smallish lefty the Braves got in the deal is “filthy … like a little Billy Wagner,” says the person who signed him — former Jays GM J.P. Ricciardi. This is an absolutely great trade for Atlanta. The Braves have one of the best clubhouses in baseball, and that Escobar was having problems says a whole lot about him; not many have problems with ATL.
lingsched - July 14, 2010
This journalism
is not as lazy as Yunel.
-C
cthabeerman - July 14, 2010
Good stuff
I like it.
sag969 - July 14, 2010
I wish Esco could have just manned up. He could have gotten a ring out of it…..
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 14, 2010
but now I’m thinking, “left handed Meds” ? I dig it
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 14, 2010
He still will
bravesforever16 - July 14, 2010
Meh – it’s Buster Olney, so I gotta take this with a grain of salt.
BTW, how many Billy Wagners does this give us now? I count 3.
justincredubil02 - July 15, 2010
Douchbag NY media. That’s pretty shitty
Zeus12888 - July 14, 2010
+1
MarvelGoose - July 15, 2010
Don’t mind moving Yunel one bit. My problem is expecting Alex Gonzalez to be anything but mediocre given his track record
McCann's the Man - July 14, 2010
Mediocre's far better than we've gotten out of that spot this year.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
Worst quote ever
From Yunel’s official website: “It was clear from his playing and positive attitude that Yunel had a lot to offer and he was quickly called up to The Atlanta Braves roster.”
thrashtalk - July 14, 2010
which may have been the case at the time he was called up
Mr. Sanchez - July 14, 2010
You do realize
That’s probably years old.
sag969 - July 14, 2010
I know we kinda did the same thing with Francoeur, but I think the best course of action would’ve been to trade JoJo for Brayan Penya. That way we could send Yunel down to AAA and let him play with his buddy for a couple games or so.
ATLandKC - July 14, 2010
Why is everyone comparing this to Francoeur
We traded a player who contributed absolutely nothing to a team in that instance. Francoeur’s lack of ability to get on base or really hit for respectable power was not made up for by his average defense, especially since it’s in right field and is very unimportant.
Yunel played great defense at a very key position, and even though he was struggling offensively, he still had a .334 OBP and was contributing to the Braves’ winning. When we traded away Frenchy, we upgraded. We’re downgrading right now because we don’t like Yunel’s attitude.
Bronn - July 14, 2010
Wait what
Francour is considered by most to be the best defensive right fielder in baseball. At the very least he has the best arm in baseball. You can’t just ignore that.
And we’re not downgrading. We’re upgrading because Gonzalez is a very good shortstop, but he can also actually hit this season. And for powah! Think about it, Glaus leads the team with 14 homeruns. Gonzalez – a shortstop – has 17! Not saying he’s going to duplicate those results in the 2nd half, but you gotta give the guy some credit, he’s a ton better than Yunel.
sag969 - July 14, 2010
And there isn't an OF to be had right now
…that wouldn’t wreck the payroll going forward.
And this is a fluke year for Hart…his career numbers are far lower.
ronniemac03 - July 14, 2010
We don't really need an OF
If Heyward plays the way he did in April/May. Right now Diaz/Hinske combination is pretty good, and Blanco is a pleasant surprise as well. And if McClouth can somehow return to 2009 form, we’re in really good shape.
sag969 - July 14, 2010
This is not directly aimed at you, but.....
if people are going to be on here discussing the team and claiming to be fans, is it too much to ask that you spell their freaking names correctly? Jesus.
It’s McLouth, people. NOT MCCLOUTH. And there are NOT 2 L’s in Yunel.
UMDBHIK - July 14, 2010
what about Medlin/Meddlin/Medlinn/Medlen/Medlenn oh heck let’s just call him Kris.
MBL1 - July 14, 2010 via mobile
Him too.
/falls off soapbox
UMDBHIK - July 14, 2010
chris
Texastriplecrown - July 15, 2010
Noway. Frenchy is considered the best by who exactly?
FitzFan - July 14, 2010
Other MLB players
I’m not going to go searching for it now, but within the last year one of SI’s polls was asking which outfielder in baseball had the best arm. Frenchy was by far the leader in voting.
sag969 - July 14, 2010
You realize there more to playing OF than throwing the ball hard, right?
Like, you know, getting to balls and making outs on them. I’d take some with good range and an average arm in RF over Frenchy in a second.
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
Alright
How’s this sound: Francour is one of the top 5 right fielders in the NL. Only consider his fielding, not the bat. Considering there’s only 16 teams in the league, I don’t really think that’s a stretch.
Yunel is probably one of the top 5 SS in the NL in terms of fielding.
That’s why its similar to the Francour trade. They were both above average at their position, but were not living up to the potential with their bat.
Its not rocket science.
sag969 - July 14, 2010
UZR data suggests Frenchy is below average in RF
DRS agrees.
Random poster named sag969 thinks Frenchy is good in the field.
Whom shall I believe?
kbertling353 - July 14, 2010
Okay
List the five right fielders in the NL who are better than Francour.
sag969 - July 14, 2010
Okay
Torres (when he plays there)
Werth
Ludwick
Upton
Heyward
Schierholz
Stanton
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
lol i sorted by RF
and only found 3 that were worse than frenchy
kbertling353 - July 14, 2010
Well, Pagan is much better, and he's on the same team.
Heyward, Werth, Pence, Upton, Bruce, Ludwick, Ross, CarGon
That’s everyone but Ethier, Corey Hart, and Hawpe
kbertling353 - July 14, 2010
Alright
Francour:
RF stats:
- 4th in MLB with 171 putouts
- 1st in MLB with 8 assists
- 1st in MLB with 4 doube plays turned
Some more eccentric stats:
- 3rd in MLB with 7 Rtot
- 9th in MLB with 3 Rdrs
I could go on but its getting old. Basically any stat you look at, Francour is 10th in terms of fielding for all right fielders.
sag969 - July 14, 2010
And by 10th
I mean in top 10.
sag969 - July 14, 2010
Except things like UZR and DRS and +/-, right?
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
I don't know why I'm bothering to reply to you
But since you’re all about career numbers, Jeff Francour has a career 35.9 UZR rating. And since DRS are so precious, he’s got 55 in six years. Show me someone who has better stats.
sag969 - July 14, 2010
Damn, those got a lot better when they adjusted UZR
Still behind guys like Ichiro, Werth, and Drew, but much better than they used to be. He’s also been below average for the past 3 years, and almost all his value was in his first couple seasons (defense drops off very early compared to offense), but I admit I stand corrected.
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
What exactly do defensive numbers he put up in '05-'07 do for him now?
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
LOL...
You do realize that POs are as much about luck as anything else, right?
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
Worth a thousand Words
Lennox - July 14, 2010
haha
+1
Braves24 - July 14, 2010
haha
+1
Braves24 - July 14, 2010
+1
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
No he's not
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
This.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
Frenchy has a good arm
That’s about it. His range in the OF was actually pretty bad.
As for Gonzalez’s power, its a complete mirage. 10 of his HRs this year were “just enoughs” according to hittrackeronline, meaning they cleared the fence by less than 10 feet. Now he’s moving from an extremely HR friendly park to one that suppresses them. I’ll be surprised if Gonzalez hits more than 7 or 8 HR the rest of the season.
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
That's still
Better than Yunel.
:-\
sag969 - July 14, 2010
There's more to baseball than hitting HR
Gonzalez sucks at the the most important, not making outs.
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
So
You’d turn down 8 homeruns over the next 80 games at our 7 spot (and all the RBI with that) for a player that walks a few more times?
sag969 - July 14, 2010
There's no guarantee he'll hit 8 HR more than Yunel would
And you’re completely ignoring what he’d do in the other 250 to 300 PA. I’d certainly take Yunel making ~20 fewer outs, which their careers suggest he would. He’d also likely put the ball in play more with a similar number of extra base hits.
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
Okay
Why don’t we call it a night and compare notes in October, k?
sag969 - July 14, 2010
Is it your bedtime?
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
Nah
I’m not going to keep arguing with you over something that’s pretty stupid. I’m pretty happy about the trade, and if you aren’t I don’t really want your misery to rub off on me.
sag969 - July 14, 2010
I'm not even upset about the trade
I just think its dumb to assume that Gonzalez will be the better player for the rest of the season.
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
Honestly
I will be surprised if Alex Gonzalez reaches 25 HR this year
UltimaParadox - July 14, 2010
Want to put your money
Where your mouth (or fingers in this case!) is? Haha.
sag969 - July 14, 2010
Nine or ten of those "just enoughs" would have also been just enough here, too.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
Are you serious?
Please cite one legit scout or journalist who has considered Francoeur to be the best RF in baseball within the last year. He used to be very good, but he’s pretty average at this point, and his arm strength is counteracted by the fact that people know about it and don’t run on him.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
I didn’t mean the trade, but sending a fairly well established player to AA or AAA.
ATLandKC - July 14, 2010
I do have to call foul on the NY Daily News comments
I went and read the NY Daily News article mentioned, with every expectation of being outraged and telling them so. The
comment is presented in this post as if it is a quote by the author of the Daily News article, but it is in fact a quote of a tweet that Martino (the article’s author) read. A tweet that he does not necessarily agree with. He does mentioned that there are larger cultural issues and clashes in baseball, but regarding Escobar he says that while such issues exist,The New York media may be in a bubble, and I have no love for an author who roots for the Mets, but I think in this case you somewhat mischaracterized that article.
FalconUdean - July 14, 2010
What?
That makes no sense. Whenever you read that statement – “"If Yunel Escobar was a charming white guy, would they trade him for a 33-year-old with a career .294 OBP?” – most smart, knowledgeable people have an instant – WTF reaction. But, this author decided that it was “thought provoking” and included it in his article! So how the hell is anybody who challenges him on the quote “mischaracterizing” him?
Anyways, to provide some rational as to why that quote (and article) are so stupid: Forget the fact that the Braves traded a very charming white guy almost exactly a year ago (to the author’s New York Mets no less), the Braves (and Cox) benched and later dumped another charming white guy (Kelly Johnson) in favor of a Latino player who was simply playing better. If Cox harbored such derogatory feelings towards Latinos, would he really have promoted Prado – a player who was very much in the same position Infante is in right now – as the starting 2nd baseman?
To think, suggest, and repeat the idea that Cox and/or the Braves had racist motivations behind the trade is just unbelievably stupid.
sag969 - July 14, 2010
Exactly
But nowhere in the article does the author accuse the Braves and/or Cox of having racist motivations. Yes, the comment was ‘thought provoking", but unless they’ve changed definitions in the last few days, saying something is thought provoking and being in agreement is not synonymous. I can consider the idea that aliens visit the earth to be “thought provoking” but that doesn’t mean I agree that it has happened.
Furthermore, the author goes on to specifically defend the Escobar trade as NOT being a case of racist motivations but instead admits that Escobar did not try hard. But your comments and the tone of the original post seems to be along the lones that the author implies that the Escobar deal was racist despite him clearly indicating he did not think that was the case. That is misrepresentation.
FalconUdean - July 14, 2010
Just the fact
That you compared aliens to racism shows how much of a joke this all is.
Point is, there was no race issue, so why even bring it up. Its pointless and shamless. Don’t bother defending him.
sag969 - July 15, 2010
I agree.
Not a sham at all.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
That's not the point
The point is that bringing race into the discussion AT ALL during this trade, is completely wrong, and perpetuates the exact types of stereotyping that the article is writing out against.
It’s repeating a statement that was completely ridiculous to begin with, and treating it like it was a viable discussion topic. That’s just BAD journalism.
garlick - July 14, 2010
According to them… “whatever sells the papers….”
Gage23 - July 14, 2010
Maybe so
The author obviously used the ridiculous tweet to open up discussion on a bigger topic. Whether you think it is a non-issue or whether it is the appropriate context to have a discussion on race, are perfectly reasonable points of debate. And any criticism along those lines I have no problem with.
I am only concerned that the author of article was misrepresented in the sense that 1) a quote that the author did not make is cited as if it came from the author and 2) the impression is given that the author felt the Escobar deal specifically was racist when in fact he explicitly states that the Escobar deal was not based on racism.
FalconUdean - July 14, 2010
+1
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
I still like the bat-flips, and bat-spins. Sue me. He had flair.
….But he’s a long way off from .299
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 14, 2010
I think it was the catastrophic drop in his slg % that I can’t get over. What the heck happened there…?
dunnytwogloves - July 14, 2010
He always seemed to have a mini-funk every year at the plate, but this year he never could get out of it. He did start picking it up the last few games, tho. Who knows.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 14, 2010
Even when he's "picked it up," though...
He hasn’t done much but hit a few singles here and there.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
I agree
In the off season, certain writers were saying he was a step away from being in the elite class of NL shortstops with Hanley Ramirez and Troy Tulowitzki, and now he looks like he’s swinging with a piece of rebar. This trade leaves me with a worrisome pang for the future, but I trust Frank the Wrench on this one. Let’s hope A-Gon works out better than Jose Hernandez a few summers back.
The Keith Lockhart Era - July 14, 2010
Jose Hernandez
That’s the exact vibe I get from this trade… although I think we are better off this year with Gonzalez than Escobar… wish he would have worked out. I had high hopes for him.
BahamaBrave - July 14, 2010
That covers it for me.
Well put, sir.
Sam Jethroe - July 14, 2010
Hernandez DID have one very nice playoff series.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
I love Yunel, and I hope he succeeds in Toronto
But we (people who like Yunel) have to get over it, and cheer for Alex
Hudson's Soul Patch - July 14, 2010
!GO BRAVES GO!
; )
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 14, 2010
yeah, I am immediately an Alex Gonzalez fan, but I certainly have a right to be pissed about this deal, at least for this off day.
VivaLosBravos - July 14, 2010
Can we stop calling this guy AGon??
There’s another AGon out there that’s considerably better.
Thankfully, there’s really no confusing the two contextually…
-C
cthabeerman - July 14, 2010
I thought about that before writing it
But it’s probably gonna happen either way… I can’t see there being much confusion. Does he have any other nicknames?
The Keith Lockhart Era - July 14, 2010
-A
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 14, 2010
his nickname is Sea Bass…and he should be referred to as such
Swo12bv - July 15, 2010
No because Alex is older
its like asking Ken Griffey Sr to change his name cause his son was a better player. You just don’t do that.
Jaymin Patel - July 14, 2010
Except AGon
Is not his nickname.
Nickname goes to the best player, case closed. How’d you feel if you heard an announcer proclaim, “Coming to the plate, the third baseman, Hammerin’ Hank Blalock?”
I’d punch that prick in the face.
-C
cthabeerman - July 14, 2010
What does it matter if the other one is better?
Who is the other one? Anyway, or Alex is nicknamed Sea Bass.
FitzFan - July 14, 2010
Adrian Gonzalez?
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
Dude!
Brian McCann won the All-Star MVP!
award6 - July 14, 2010
See what happens when you let him play, Chollie?
This is also when I flip the bird at Tony LaRussa and laugh in Yadier’s face.
The Keith Lockhart Era - July 14, 2010
is it wrong for me to hope Esco does well in Toronto?
MBL1 - July 14, 2010 via mobile
NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
Besides, he plays in the AL. It’s not wrong to cheer for him.
Hudson's Soul Patch - July 14, 2010
This
the AL is a place where my arbitrary fanhood is totally unrestricted
VivaLosBravos - July 14, 2010
haha
yes.
lol. I hope he pwns. I’m just glad he’s not in the National League, let alone the Mets, or some shit. I could see us paying dearly. YNK…
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 14, 2010
ugh, if he went to the Mets we’d have Jose Reyes! bleh.
MBL1 - July 14, 2010 via mobile
……forget I said anything. lol
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 14, 2010
No, I hope he does well also,
maybe the change will do him good.
HEYJUDE - July 14, 2010
Well, at least I have a Brave now on my fantasy team
bravesforever16 - July 14, 2010
I’m pretty sure Rogers Centre is a more hitter friendly environment than Turner Field.
I think Yunel will do fine and I wish him well. It’s unfortunate reality and he weren’t the best of friends.
UMDBHIK - July 14, 2010
NICE
I like this deal. The lack of try that Esco seemed to have was very hard for me to watch. I still feel that the Braves need to add a big HR threat. I may be being greedy but it would be awesome to have a consistant HR threat in the four spot. Like the years of McGriff, Galaragga, Justice, Gant…. Chipper would get to see some great pitches then. Which would trickle to Heyward in the 2 spot. I’m dreaming
rcates - July 14, 2010
We are really tricking ourselves here
If we were Toronoto, we would be be estatic over this deal…
Instead we sell a guy off at his lowest point, for someone who is worse moving forward.
If the idea is to win now:
I FIRMLY believe that Escobar > Alex Gonzalez the remainder of this year.
If people were frustrated watching Escobar swinging at bad balls, you have not seen Alex Gonzalez try to hit. Its pathetic
UltimaParadox - July 14, 2010
Well spoken
/golf clap
J-Freak - July 14, 2010 via mobile
This isn't totally about winning now....
Escobar wasn’t adding anything in batting in the first half, and we’re still in first place. Even if we get similar numbers out of Alex Gonzalez at the plate in the second half, and his career averages are still better than what Escobar gave us in the first half, we will have ejected someone that Bobby and the team didn’t like.
This trade was not as much about this year as it was getting rid of a malcontent.
Even if you FIRMLY believe Escobar>Alex Gonzalez for the remainder of this year, which I can’t disagree with, there’s more to baseball than stats.
Teams that win are not teams that have a bunch of individual unruly and bad attitude players. Teams that win have good clubhouses, where everyone participates. It’s a TEAM game, and Escobar, according to all reports, was not a team player.
So who cares if Gonzalez swings at bad balls, by all accounts he’s a veteran who’s a good presence in the clubhouse, and right now we gain that back in return when we honest didn’t absolutely need a ton of offense at that position.
More we need more offense in the outfield.
garlick - July 14, 2010
I wonder
if we will miss his stellar defense?
And Escobar’s first half is still not that far off..
Escobar is worth 1.0 WAR this year
Gonzalez is worth 2.4 WAR this year
Of course Gonzalez did the majority of his damage in April, nothing we will see…
Even in his “career year” his OBP is almost 50 points lower than Escobars this YEAR
I get trading Escobar to an extent but for Alex Gonzalez is just absurd
The guy does not walk, strikes out at 20% a clip and this is in his “career year”
UltimaParadox - July 14, 2010
The trade was more about his attitude
than it was about his playing abilities, imo.
HEYJUDE - July 14, 2010
I guess
but at least wait till he goes on a tear, before you trade him for this heap
UltimaParadox - July 14, 2010
precisely
I don’t really buy that we have to sacrifice talent for chemistry, but if that’s what is happening, trading YEScobar in a value free fall is awful timing.
VivaLosBravos - July 14, 2010
Well, that's a problem
We’ve dealt with Kenny Lofton and Deion Sanders in the past for the sake of winning-even traded for Barry Bonds once. I really doubt Yunel is the worst character we’ve ever had in the dugout.
He’s a good player and has a good chance to outperform Alex Gonzalez over the rest of the year. If they really wanted to send Bobby out on top, they’d have kept him
Bronn - July 14, 2010
Barry Bonds?
When did we trade for him? I don’t remember him having played for the Braves.
HEYJUDE - July 14, 2010
You seriously don't know the story?
Schuerholz had a deal in place with Bonds right before he bolted to San Fran. Now my memory of the story may be off, but I don’t think it was a trade with Pittsburgh, I’m pretty sure it was a FA offer.
UMDBHIK - July 14, 2010
i thought we were going to trade odibe mcdowell for him at one time
Brandonba - July 14, 2010
I remember the offer
but never remember him playing for the Braves.
HEYJUDE - July 14, 2010
This is the offer that I was referring to. No trade was made due to Jim Leyland.
HEYJUDE - July 14, 2010
My memory of that was off. Thank you for refreshing it.
UMDBHIK - July 14, 2010
Also thank you Jim Leyland.
UMDBHIK - July 14, 2010
Yeah, that Bazillion-plus OPS would have been a real tragedy.
Oh, right…I forgot. “Clubhouse chemistry.” LOL.
Yakker - July 14, 2010
Roidy McRoiderson? No thanks. I’ll pass.
UMDBHIK - July 14, 2010
Ken Caminiti was a Brave...
as was Marcus Giles, among others.
Mr. Sanchez - July 14, 2010
Couldn’t stand any of them. And FWIW, their contributions to the game were far less ‘historic’ than Bonds.
UMDBHIK - July 14, 2010
+1,000
Mighty Healthy - July 14, 2010
butterfly affect
we don’t know that he would have taken steroids..if he was in a differnt locker room in a different city..its entriely possible things would have turned out entirely differnet. its also possible he remained a roids guy
Swo12bv - July 15, 2010
Nice Name...
I like it. Haha.
XBEARDX - July 15, 2010
Haven't you heard?
Chemistry wins championships. Period.
buzzdeadwax - July 15, 2010
Bonds had enough chemistry to inflate his head and shrink his sack
Yakker - July 15, 2010
+1
justincredubil02 - July 15, 2010
Have you measured either?
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
The story is actually a chapter in John Schuerholtz’s book Built to Win. It is a great read for any Braves fan.
Huntington31 - July 15, 2010
Great Book.
Read it and really enjoyed it. I was shocked about the whole Bonds thing. Maybe if came to Atlanta he might not have been such a dbag that he turned into in SF.
cmdpsu15 - July 15, 2010
And yet...
Escobar forced his way out of here. That should tell you something.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
I do not like this trade but it was about the attitude more than talent
Braves24 - July 14, 2010
No shit
If we were in 4th place in the toughest division in baseball, I’m sure I’d be happy we traded for a younger shorstop with more potential too.
But, don’t try to trick us, please. If Braves weren’t in 1st place, they wouldn’t be making this trade.
And, I’m very, very curious to how you figure that “Escobar > Alex Gonzalez the remainder of this year.” Please explain that a bit more, because seeing Alex Gonzalez hit 17 homeruns doesn’t sound pathetic to me at all.
sag969 - July 14, 2010
He had an awesome first half
That doesn’t mean he’ll keep it up for the rest of the year. Yunel has been a much better hitter over the course of his career than Gonzalez has been.
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
Alright
So what does that prove?
Nothing.
Yunel is having a subpar year, Gonzalez is having an above average year. We don’t know what the 2nd half will hold for either of them, but odds are Gonzalez continues to perform at a decent level, plus he’s a much better personality for the team than Yunel ever could have been.
Anyways, I’m still waiting for an explanation of how Escobar>Alex Gonzalez for the remainder of the year.
sag969 - July 14, 2010
Because Escobar is better at baseball
Basing decisions on the past 80 games is stupid. Its much more informative to look at what guys have done over the course of their careers.
If you want to argue about personalities that’s fine and it appears that’s why the Braves moved him. Arguing that this makes the team on the field more talented isn’t a good argument.
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
You're right
Escobar is the better batter when you look at career stats.
But you just can’t ignore the fact that Yunel is having such a bad year, while Gonzalez is having such a good year.
Do your really think that the Braves would have traded Yunel if his numbers were a little better? Hell no. The personality thing obviously was the leading factor, but how he was performing at the plate factored in as well.
sag969 - July 14, 2010
I agree that Escobar’s attitude is bad sometimes, but we are winning with him.
Braves24 - July 14, 2010
We're only winning if you look at Wins and Losses
We’ve clearly lost the clubhouse chemistry pennant race.
buzzdeadwax - July 15, 2010
WHAT
I quit.
VictorW - July 14, 2010
So is Alex Gonzalez
our new 8-hole hitter…
I know we were dying to get Melky in more RBI situations
UltimaParadox - July 14, 2010
nope
he’ll hit 7th
Jaymin Patel - July 14, 2010
forgot
/SARCASM
UltimaParadox - July 14, 2010
I would like to introduce FW
to a concept that is known as BPA, or Best Player Available. In 2008, FW traded Tex for Kotch and Marek. Because we NEEDED to get a ML-ready 1B in that deal. Had to. So we got a bad 1B and fairly bad RP prospect. (I know, he ended up trading Kotch for 1/3 season of LaRoche. Big deal, he could have traded a B-level prospect that no one would have missed for LaRoche too.) Fast-forward to 2010. He simply MUST trade Esco and he MUST acquire Esco’s replacement in the same trade. Had to. So we get a decent SS and two B-level prospects for a top-5 ML SS. Perhaps FW could have made Esco the centerpiece to acquire a new LF/CF (Esco for Willingham straight up?). Then you take JoJo (since the Jays obviously think he’s something of value) and a couple of other spare parts and trade for Gonzalez. Oh well, what’s done is done. Hopefully FW, Gonzalez, and the prospects make me look like an idiot.
buzzdeadwax - July 14, 2010
doubt it
People hated Frenchy so much, rightfully so
his career OBP is higher than Alex Gonzalez!!!!
FYF career OBP .310, this year .302
Gonzalez career OBP .294, this year .296
UltimaParadox - July 14, 2010
dont give me
Gonzalez is a SS argument, it is just awful
UltimaParadox - July 14, 2010
It's a moved based in the now, but with real future ramifications
Would you rather pay Alex what he makes now for a season and a half, and either have his replacement in the minors or be able to make a move once his deal is up, or be tied to Esco through arbitration, pay him big money, and he plays like he’s playing now, and be stuck with him and a bad contract?
ronniemac03 - July 14, 2010
add on
…or go through arbitration, lose him and get nothing but a draft pick?
ronniemac03 - July 14, 2010
Additionally
His agent is Arn Tellem, who doesn’t have a good relationship with the Braves front office (to put it mildly) after last year’s Furcal fiasco.
Sam Jethroe - July 14, 2010
I would
rather pay Esco and get superior play, even his down years… Than take on Alex Gonzalez..
Even in his first ARB years he wont be more than 4 million tops..
If he still under performs we let him walk, no different than letting Alex Gonzalez walk after his second year
UltimaParadox - July 14, 2010
You're counting on this being an abberation...this year could really be what Esco is as a player
ronniemac03 - July 14, 2010
His down year
IS better than Alex Gonzalez career years!!!
UltimaParadox - July 14, 2010
And to move Esco for someone better, either at short of the outfield..
…would have cost us Meds, JJ, or Freeman for starters
ronniemac03 - July 14, 2010
wouldn't go that far
Gonzalez has clearly been more valuable this year.
VivaLosBravos - July 14, 2010
Granted but its hard to imagine it will keep up
His power numbers dont translate to Turner Field
either way
Escobar 1.0 WAR
Goznalez 2.4 WAR
this year
UltimaParadox - July 14, 2010
oh, yes, I wouldn’t contest that.
VivaLosBravos - July 14, 2010
well... no
if 0HR, 19 RBI, .238, .334, .284 were better than 17HR, 50 RBI, .259, .296, .497 this trade never would have been made…
theres a reason that OPS is a stat its because on base and slugging are valued the same, saying yunel is better THIS YEAR solely because he gets on base more in front of our 8th and 9th hitters is way off base
cirela20 - July 14, 2010
OPS values OBP and SLG the same for simplicity's sake
OBP is something like 3 to 4 times more valuable than SLG according the Bill James. That being said, Gonzalez has been more valuable offensively thus far this season.
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
For a generic hitter.
However, for the spot in question, the #7 hitter on this Braves team, slugging is much closer in value, if not more valuable.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
I really don’t intend to sound like that’s not a possibility in my comments, because it is. It’s just not very likely.
VivaLosBravos - July 14, 2010
So i half year & people are giving up on the guys? That's crazy. So he just lucked into being good since his call up?
FitzFan - July 14, 2010
Yunel
He was only good if you look at fringe stats like wOBA, UZR, DRS, OBP, Avg., BB%, K%, and every other offensive and defensive stat (especially relative to other SS). However, his CCA (Clubhouse Chemistry Average) is terrible – .143. Compare this to guys like David Eckstein’s Herculean .457 and Craig Counsell’s .438, and you can see that Yunel is actually quite sucky when it comes to playing baseball.
buzzdeadwax - July 15, 2010
Wait a second—you need to adjust that CCA for lockerroom and clubhouse. Once you take into account the Braves “Roundtable” lockeroom, with all that extra space for him to infuse his chemistry into the team, his CCA+ is more like 220. Not Ecksteinian or even Bloomquistian by any stretch, but much closer to the league average CORP (Chemistry Over Replacement Personality).
Yakker - July 15, 2010
+ sideways 8 to both of you. This is fantastic.
justincredubil02 - July 15, 2010
Now you're just making shit up
buzzdeadwax - July 15, 2010
i cant believe he would use such an antiquated valuation for clubhousiness. I have also heard his PHA (professional hitter ability) is quite high.
Swo12bv - July 15, 2010
And what of his GPP?
(Glidability per play)
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
And also plays mediocre defense at an easy defensive position where a good bat is expected, if not required.
Gonzalez plays plus defense at the hardest defensive position in baseball.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
what makes you think
that the nationals want Escobar? They see Yunel’s antics and probably don’t want him.
Second, Yunel is not a top 5 shortstop any longer. I’ll give you 5 better players in the NL alone in Tulo, Reyes, Rollins, Hanley, stephen drew and even Rafael Furcal.
Problem is Yunel will probably never get much much better.
Jaymin Patel - July 14, 2010
If not the Nationals
surely someone gives us something better than 33 year old Alex Gonzalez…
The problem is that we demanded a ML SS in return, and so we got shafted taking this deal
UltimaParadox - July 14, 2010
so who plays ss for the rest of the year
the thing that I think this trade does is it opens up a position for someone else in 2 years. Whether it be Edward Salcedo or Mycal Jones or Matt Lipka or whomever else.
But in saying that I also didn’t like this trade cause supposedly Escobar was having a bad offensive year but he was still having a better year than Alex Gonzalez
Jaymin Patel - July 14, 2010
does it matter
trade for a average SS, or play Omar there…
That is what Alex Gonzalez is
UltimaParadox - July 14, 2010
And playing Omar there weakens the bench
…do you really want to count on Broosky or Brandon Hicks for more than an at-bat or two?
ronniemac03 - July 14, 2010
Infante's certainly not as good as Gonzalez.
Not defensively, not with the bat, not with his ability to sustain as an everyday starter.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
You don’t need to dump Esco for 2 years in the future that may never come. You have a crazy hatred for the guy, so of course you don’t think he’s any good.
FitzFan - July 14, 2010
My question is....
Who else has a SS worth having that could have been dealt without taking Omar out of his super utility role, taking on a bad contract at SS or in the OF, or without having to give up pieces in a deal now that can either benefit the team as players on in a bigger move in the offseason?
ronniemac03 - July 14, 2010
easy
dont move him at wall, we are winning…
Instead we get worse..
UltimaParadox - July 14, 2010
he was screwing up the chemistry and no
one in the clubhouse liked him. That’s why he had to go.
Why do you think Lebron left Cleveland, cause he found out Delonte West was sleeping with his mom
Jaymin Patel - July 14, 2010
The Lebron thing doesn't work in this case....
He was gone because he couldn’t get anyone worth having to come to Cleveland with him, so he left where real talent would go
ronniemac03 - July 14, 2010
Noway that douche really tried to get anyone to come to Cle.
FitzFan - July 14, 2010
Rumor was that he wanted Bosh to come to Cleveland, but Bosh wanted no part of it
ronniemac03 - July 14, 2010
What kind of King lets Chris-fuckin-Bosh call the shots?
Yakker - July 14, 2010
he is not nearly a King
Kobe:The Legend - July 15, 2010
How would he have forced him to sign with the Cavs?
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
This is true.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
that is so irrelevant.
VivaLosBravos - July 14, 2010
Now you sound stupid.
FitzFan - July 14, 2010
You know we are in first place with him. And the Lebron thing is a really bad example
Braves24 - July 14, 2010
And who's to say we couldn't have been FURTHER in first place without him?
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
What's to say that...
… last year was Esco’s career year, and he’s nothing more than a good glove/inconsistent bat?
ronniemac03 - July 14, 2010
Well look at the stats
every year he has been in the big leagues since 2005 he is still better or equal to Alex Gonzalez’s career year
They are not comparable players…
In all facets of the game besides “homers” Yunel has been the superior player year in and year out.
Hell they are close this year
UltimaParadox - July 14, 2010
Oh yeah
Escobar is 27 under team control and has upside
Gonzalez is 33, and has a lifetime OBP under .300 worse than FYF
UltimaParadox - July 14, 2010
You keep preaching about upside...
yet no one is saying that Esco isn’t better than Alex. We all know that’s not the case. But we also can’t keep waiting for Esco to come out of his hitting coma in a pennant race either. Who knows who will happen next year…but right now, in this pennant race…we needed to shore up a growing hole and drain that Esco was becoming.
ronniemac03 - July 14, 2010
yeah it’s not like we have the best record in the league or anything
VivaLosBravos - July 14, 2010
I can respect the argument, but I disagree that this trade has accomplished it.
UMDBHIK - July 14, 2010
I'm not saying that this has either...
Omar could be starting at short and Alex takes his place as the super sub…but sometimes it’s better to have a guy play to the maximum of his ability every night than to have a talented guy that you have to wonder what day, what play, or what at bat will he not show up
ronniemac03 - July 14, 2010
Fair enough.
UMDBHIK - July 14, 2010
I would rather have
Escobar the rest of this year ONLY than Alex Gonzalez…
Gonzalez had a good April and has been the same player since.
This is not a win now move
UltimaParadox - July 14, 2010
And on that we'll disagree.
I’m not convinced that Esco will pull out of it. Not in Atlanta. If he were a more steady person mentally, you don’t make this move. But he’s prone to go into funks when his emotions are out of whack. Struggles in the field lead to struggles at the plate, and vice versa. He needs that guy who will calm him down and keep him steady to be 100% of his talent, and unfortunately, Braylan Pena was that guy, but Pena couldn’t hold his spot as the backup catcher (anyone think Pena is better than Ross), and keeping Pena in the minors wouldn’t help Esco any, cause he still wouldn’t be playing with Esco.
Believe me, I like Esco. I hope that he can turn it around. I’ll hate it for us if he does, but I’ll root for him. I just don’t think he would have been productive with everybody forming up against him. He doesn’t strike me as a player that would play better with the odds against him
ronniemac03 - July 14, 2010
What makes you believe
Gonzalez will put up respectable numbers?
UltimaParadox - July 14, 2010
afsdfzxcvasdfasdf
o Season: GP 85 ·
o AVG .259 ·
o HR 17 ·
o RBI 50 ·
o Runs 47 ·
o SB 1
That.
sag969 - July 14, 2010
You left out the horrid .296 OBP
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
...
Player #1 – wOBP: .341
Player #2 – wOBP: 291
Guess which player has the better numbers.
sag969 - July 14, 2010
in 200 PA
try looking at career. it’s not close. also, yunel is young and cheap. AGon is 33.
i really don’t think there’s an argument to be made that AGon is the better player. the move was pretty much made because Yunel is a headcase.
kbertling353 - July 14, 2010
200?
350 to nitpick.
And please stop with the AGon stuff.
My argument isn’t that Gonzalez is the better player, its pretty freaking obvious that Yunel has the better career stats. My point is that he’s better this year.
Obviously, that isn’t a perfect prediction for what will happen over the next 80 games, but I feel like its enough to show that he’s going to end up doing better this year. If you want to disagree and loudly scream CAREER, CAREER, CAREER, then fine. Be my guest.
sag969 - July 14, 2010
Problem is
most if not all projections believe that this point moving forward
Escobar > Gonzalez THIS YEAR
his stats before the trade mean nothing to us
UltimaParadox - July 14, 2010
Alright
We’ll see what happens then :-p
sag969 - July 14, 2010
Gonzalez’s stats before the trade mean nothing to us now, but Escobar’s stats before the trade certainly do.
Nearly getting his teammate injured does as well.
Even if a focused Gonzalez is inferior to a lackadaisical Escobar, at least he won’t put his teammates in jeopardy.
-C
cthabeerman - July 14, 2010
+11
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
Just as Yunel's last year mean nothing to us.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
We're not talking about
Who will end up with better numbers on the season. With his head start, that’s almost certainly going to be Gonzalez. What we’re talking about is who will be better for rest of this season, and the numbers point to Escobar being that guy.
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
ding ding
UltimaParadox - July 14, 2010
What numbers??
I’d like to see where you have the stats for the upcoming half season stashed.
If past numbers were an indicator of future success, Dan Kolb would have been pretty good for us.
-C
cthabeerman - July 14, 2010
Kolb's numbers were like Gonzalez 1st half
They looked good for a small sample, but overall weren’t impressive. Mostly, his good times were predicated on luck, not skill. Sounds a lot like Gonzalez, right?
All I said was that the numbers point to Escobar being better in the 2nd half. ZiPS rest of season projection has Escobar going for a slash of .280/.357/.390, good for a .335 wOBA, while it has Gonzalez going for a .242/.288/.414, good for a .308 wOBA.
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
I'm just playing Devil's Advocate now
For all you Henny Penny-sounding motherfuckers.
The world isn’t over, stop lamenting the loss of Escobar before we’ve played a game with Gonzalez.
-C
cthabeerman - July 14, 2010
Some of us aren't lamenting the trade
We’re disagreeing with the people who seem to think its going to make us a better team on the field for the rest of the season.
I actually like Collins and I understand why Escobar was moved. Don’t think the return is that bad either. I don’t however think that Gonzalez will be better for the rest of this season than Escobar would have. Whether the difference in the clubhouse will make up for that, I can’t say.
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
Sitting around in July
arguing about who is going to be better by the end of september is fucking stupid.
Qtips - July 14, 2010
That's what the internet is for
Arguing about stupid stuff…
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
Touche
but 2nd half results will tell the ultimate tale
Qtips - July 14, 2010
But we didn't argue now
We couldn’t rub people’s face in our being right later on. That takes away all the fun.
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
Of course, by this reasoning, nobody would ever analyze a trade!
D.Szymborski - July 15, 2010
Really?
He had just come off of three years and 130+ IP with a sub-3.00 ERA and a 1.28 WHIP. I’d say he had a pretty decent track record. By the way, what do you think ZiPS said about how Escobar would have hit from April to now?
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
Career
Player #1 – wOBA: .299
Player #2 – wOBA: .342
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
Pena could have stuck as a utility guy.
He plays way more than catcher.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
So evertime a play has a bad 1st half we should trade them? Alex does not plug that hole.
FitzFan - July 14, 2010
I'll try this again....
No, Alex is not better than Esco.
Yes, I do think this was based on more than just his slump.
Yes, Esco’s track record for mental screwups goes beyond just this half of a season.
If he had any support in the clubhouse, he’d still be here, but he doesn’t…and that, more than anything, is why he’s gone.
ronniemac03 - July 14, 2010
Marek is "fairly bad?"
The guy was a top-six prospect in their system for two years running, and he’s certainly on track to be a decent ML reliever with the way he’s pitched this year. Also, I’d love to know how you get Escobar as a top-five SS at this point.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
The problem with that is
To move Esco at low value AND with his reputation to get a quality OF is dang near impossible…at least not one that isn’t also having a “career year”(for all the Corey Hart lovers out there), or isn’t carrying a stupidly bad contract, not to mention what of the higher level ML ready prospects we have to do so. More than likely you have to take a guy who’s not producing either with a contract that isn’t flexible going forward. Never mind getting ANY ML SS in a move for just JoJo and some low B-high C level players when JoJo couldn’t stick in a pitcher friendly program here, and not send back a SS that can start in return…no GM in their right mind would make a trade like that. Never mind that this team will look totally different come ‘12, especially if Chipper plays just the one year after this one. Alex plays here the second half, and we’ll pick up his option next year, and dang near all the contracts come off the books (except Huddy…Lowe I’m not sure of). Never mind that Tommy has to be paid down the line…as does Heyward and JJ too. It’s a move for now (Esco wasn’t helping matters at all with his loafing play and basically being the one guy nobody else likes), and it gives us flexibility in the future without being tied to someone elses bad contract.
ronniemac03 - July 14, 2010
Don't know
If any of the mods want to award a green for this thread but if they do…this post is it. GM’s have to take the long view into account.
As much as I’ve defended Escobar against criticism, fair and unfair, he was really stalled here.
Sam Jethroe - July 14, 2010
Does anyone have a rundown on the depth
at SS in our minors?
Jaymin Patel - July 14, 2010
can we move prado to shortstop
and play Infante at 2nd?
Jaymin Patel - July 14, 2010
Lipka and Salcedo are easily the best of the bunch, both are a few years away.
VivaLosBravos - July 14, 2010
ABSOLUTELY not.
Prado’s range is below-average at 2B. He’d be a worse option than Omar at SS. We’re basically looking at Hicks and D. Hernandez.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
From the front page
E. Salcedo(sp?)
B. Hicks
M. Jones
ronniemac03 - July 14, 2010
pastornicky
lipka
as well
Swo12bv - July 15, 2010
Here goes...
AAA (Gwinnett)-Diory Hernandez and Brandon Hicks. Both have their good points, but neither seems like they’ll ever be a starting SS in the majors.
AA (Mississippi)-has been a committee approach-Luis Bolivar, Alejandro Machado, Randy Gress, among others. Perhaps this is where Pastornicky goes, or maybe they slide the older Myke Jones here.
A+ (Myrtle)—Has been Myke Jones of late, before he was called up from Rome, it was Armado Zazueta, Samuel Sime, and Ryan Barba. Pastornicky can play there now, with perhaps Jones either sliding to 2B or to AA.
A (Rome)—Myke Jones started the year there, now it’s Edward Salcedo, with Jordan Kreke (among others) filling in the gap between the two.
Danville—Has been mostly Andrelton Simmons (2nd round pick, could end up a P). Elmer Reyes and Barrett Kleinchekt have been the others in very limited action. Reyes played exclusively SS for the DSL team last year, but played 2B mostly for the GCL this year before being called up to Danville.
GCL—Has loads of options there. Matt Lipka has played it most, but we have others capable that have been elsewhere on the diamond since Lipka is the top pick. Fernando De Los Santos has played mostly 2B this year, but played a lot of SS this year. Brandon Drury was drafted as a HS SS from Oregon, but has spent most of his time at 3B for us. Ivan Marin has split time between 2B and SS. Alejandro Sanchez, the only one of 4 signings from the academy in Tenerife (Canary Islands) stateside with the rest in the DSL, was signed as a SS, but he’s played DH, 1B, 3B and 2B in the GCL.
That’s the run down of them all. Rating them as prospects, it’s probably…
Salcedo
Lipka
Jones
Pastornicky
Reyes
De Los Santos
Drury/Sanchez
Hicks/Hernandez (could be higher, but just don’t see much remaining upside with either)
Mr. Sanchez - July 15, 2010
any reason you put Pastornicky ahead of Jones…just curious…i dont know how i would rank them
Swo12bv - July 15, 2010
?
I didn’t?
Mr. Sanchez - July 16, 2010
ya i fucked up,….reverse that why is JOnes ahead of Pastornicky? my B, i still want the answer
Swo12bv - July 16, 2010
cause he's ours I guess...
and assume he has more power potential, although the 4 year difference probably makes that foolish. Probably the main reason, he’s ours and familiar and been hot lately.
Mr. Sanchez - July 16, 2010
thats what my feeling is…more comfortable ranking a guy I am more familiar with…i was just hoping you had some great insight into who Pastornicky is as a player.
Swo12bv - July 16, 2010
considering he's apparently starting in AA with us...
that changes my opinion. They apparently feel he’s farther along than Jones, at a much younger age. That certainly speaks well of him, and he may be a much better prospect than any of us thought.
Mr. Sanchez - July 16, 2010
nice start at least...
Collins comes in gunning guys down and Pastornicky has multiple hits including a 3B.
Mr. Sanchez - July 16, 2010
BEST DEAL EVA…… FW IS A GENUIS…. I ALWAYS KNEW IT.!!!!
YOU KNOW I"M RIGHT BECAUSE I"M SPELLING POORLY AND USING CAP LOCKS AND EXCLAMAATION POINTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Swo12bv - July 17, 2010
Bravo sir....
Mr. Sanchez - July 17, 2010
Holty?
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
Gress has been released.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
Was Stephen Drew available?
just curious since the Diamondbacks are out of it
Jaymin Patel - July 14, 2010
They'll want more than we're probably willing to give up
…and I think he’s their only healthy untouchable player
ronniemac03 - July 14, 2010
No rings for players traded before you actually win, correct?
New World Brave - July 14, 2010
He played half the year...he gets one, i think
…but let’s not talk of rings till we actually get to that point…lol
ronniemac03 - July 14, 2010
Fair enough. No jinxing here, although I did say last night "It is written."
Just curious how that goes.
New World Brave - July 14, 2010
Why don't you have a "check" by Braves if you've been a fan since '90??
New World Brave - July 14, 2010
Checklist for 2010...not overall
ronniemac03 - July 14, 2010
Be more specific, dammit! lol
New World Brave - July 14, 2010
We trade for a player that is having a "Career year".
and yet somehow still has a .296 OBP…
Francoeur: The Sequel.
Windu - July 14, 2010
Frenchy II would be Hart. I just hope FW doesn't pull that trigger!
New World Brave - July 14, 2010
Agreed
We trade for Hart, I’ll be pissed. This trade does not bother me one bit.
foxrobe - July 14, 2010
Hart is much more valuable than Frenchy
VivaLosBravos - July 14, 2010
At least Frenchy was younger....
what are Hart’s home/road splits?
ronniemac03 - July 14, 2010
Um...I've changed my mind...I think I want Hart
A .280/20/80/.300/.450 guy since he’s been a regular starter….i’d take that in left and let Hinske be the relief for Chipper/Glaus instead of a platoon in left
ronniemac03 - July 14, 2010
No it would be put new SS. Cory Hart is much better than Frenchy.
FitzFan - July 14, 2010
Gonzalez career OBP
is only 1 point higher than Frenchy’s worst year
Worst OBP for Frenchy 2006 = .293
Career OBP for Gonzalez = .294
UltimaParadox - July 14, 2010
You do realize Gonzalez isn't a corner OF, right?
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
Except he plays plus defense at a premium defensive position.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
I hate
how sour everyone is on this trade. Knee jerk reactions are rarely correct, and that is like 99% of what I’ve seen (I’m talking about the commentors). The Braves, at worst, will break even on this trade, short term, long term, everywhere. My main concern was how our defense was going to be affected. Apparently Gonzo is heck of a defensive SS, maybe not Yunel, but close enough. If we get anything out of him it will be at the very least a push.
Go Braves.
foxrobe - July 14, 2010
Agreed. Yunel is flashy. Alex is no less a defensive player. Just sans flash.
New World Brave - July 14, 2010
And Escobar had even begun to grate on his teammates and front office guys...
With his tendency to add artificial flash to plays that didn’t need it at all.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
Exactly
…and we don’t sacrifice anything major in terms of talent or financial flexibility
ronniemac03 - July 14, 2010
add on
other than what Esco may or may not get back to
ronniemac03 - July 14, 2010
We didn’t improve our team any either …
Lennox - July 14, 2010
We certainly improved the clubhouse atmosphere.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
Yup
You summed it up pretty nicely.
sag969 - July 14, 2010
problem is
We moved a guy for who is worse…
We got no better, and arguably we got worse…
However we got a couple of guys who might help us later… who knows
UltimaParadox - July 14, 2010
im sure glad Jo-Jo is gone though let that be someone elses headache
d1gram420 - July 14, 2010
Phillie and Met fans are ecstatic about this trade
The Phillies are calling him a “Out-Maker.” Please Alex. SHUT THEM UP!!!!
bravesforever16 - July 14, 2010
LOL
The guy has a career OBP below .300, an “out-maker” is exactly who he is.
Lennox - July 14, 2010
bingo
He is a good defensive shortstop … alright
We could have traded for 40 year old Omar Vizquel and been out on top
At least we would be the only team with two Omars
UltimaParadox - July 14, 2010
Comparing Vizquel and Gonzalez is ridiculous.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
Really though? Who cares what Mutt and Taser fans have to say about it? Let them worry about improving the views from 2nd and 3rd place.
UMDBHIK - July 14, 2010
+100
ronniemac03 - July 14, 2010
Anybody with Jeff Francoeur on their roster
Needs to lay off that line of attack.
Sam Jethroe - July 14, 2010
This
buzzdeadwax - July 15, 2010
But, Jeffy is soon to be on their bench – as long as Beltran comes back.
Imagine that – Frenchy loses a starting spot to Angel Pagan???
justincredubil02 - July 15, 2010
We need a poll for this: “Was it a good trade or a bad trade?”
MBL1 - July 14, 2010 via mobile
It was a meh trade....except for booting out JoJo...that's the real plus of this trade...lol
ronniemac03 - July 14, 2010
I'm trying to decide
How amusing that will be, because I’m pretty sure the results will be overwhelming negative. Then, three months from now, if the poll is retaken, the numbers will be significantly different.
Oh well.
sag969 - July 14, 2010
but gondeee wants to pretend like this was a good trade
id put it in the neighborhood of 60% disagree
kbertling353 - July 14, 2010
They did one on the AJC site...
It was about 42% “solid single,” 38% “strike out,” and 20% “home run.”
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
have to think it was primarily driven by his attitude
Why else would they unload him for that package? I know he was having a down year, but he had established himself as a valuable offensive and defensive player.
I don’t think the Francoeur comp is valid at all, as for the past year and a half he had been below replacement level.
If they think getting ride of Escobar is a good thing for the clubhouse and team cohesion, that’s fine with me. I don’t know what it’s like behind closed doors. But I have to think they could have gotten a little more for a guy who was one of the top 5 SS last year, and dead cheap. Unless he has attitude problem is more well known around the league than it is among fans.
jerryclore - July 14, 2010
I'm willing to bet that was the case
nobody’s gonna willingly take on an attitude problem unless they’re out of it or the price is discounted a bit
ronniemac03 - July 14, 2010
His attitude problem was well known by anybody who chose not to ignore it.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
We should note that Toronto's almost always "out of it."
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
(To rm03)
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
While we are trading young talented players for old over achieving players...
…McCann for Buck, because Buck has more homers, and McCann isn’t doing as well as he normally does, what with the low(er than normal) batting average and all.
Bob Mackie - July 14, 2010
MCCANN IS ALL STAR MVP!
hush, you!!
MBL1 - July 14, 2010 via mobile
I would say something...
but your post says it all….:(
ronniemac03 - July 14, 2010
haha
sad truth, its the same thing
UltimaParadox - July 14, 2010
and heyward for hart while we’re on this track
BravesRaleigh - July 14, 2010
This
Heyward has SUCKED in his last 20 at-bats. Time to trade him while he still has value. And I don’t want to hear about hand injuries. If he had a good attitude and cared about his teammates, he wouldn’t have gotten injured in the first place. Selfish. He might as well just frost his tips.
buzzdeadwax - July 15, 2010
That about sums it up.
Mighty Healthy - July 14, 2010
I realize
You’re trying to make a point, but its a stupid one.
Escobar wasn’t traded just on his stats. If that was the case, Cabrera and McLouth would be gone as well.
It was two factors – his performance and his attitude.
If there’s one thing I’ve learned about Cox is that he loves players that have a never say die attitude and give it their all. That’s why guys like Diaz, Infante, Prado, and Blanco thrive under him. It only makes sense that he would hate players who the complete opposite of that.
sag969 - July 15, 2010
This
ronniemac03 - July 15, 2010
This seems like
a desperate rationalization. Escobar is younger, better, cheaper and definitely a better option at shortstop for the Braves going forward. Cox and the rest of the team are professionals, and if they couldn’t handle Escobar that is pathetic.
And I never said Yunel shouldn’t be traded, I just pointed out that it was for an old overachieving nobody.
Bob Mackie - July 15, 2010
Well they did
They handled him for four years.
We don’t know exactly what was going on in the clubhouse, but I’m blown away by some of the quotes and shit that have leaked out. If Escobar was really that detested on the team, then I’m shocked the Braves didn’t trade him in the winter while his stock was high.
sag969 - July 15, 2010
Word was that they'd been trying.
However, the Glaus play was the “final straw” that really got them moving towards getting rid of him, at least according to Bowman.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
Which attitude problem of McCann's are you referring to, exactly?
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
Yunel Memories
Don’t be afraid to stand up for you man fellas!!
- Chief Noc-a-homa
- Yondamine4
- mvhsball
[ed – too bad he seemed to piss of the braves the most :) ]
- cbwilkins
Royhobbes [ed maybe he should have changed a little]-nickrandomnumbers
jerryclore - July 14, 2010
thats.....
pretty creepy jerry
bravesguy311 - July 14, 2010
What the hell?
Scott Coleman - July 15, 2010
More importantly, who the heck is nickrandomnumbers???
justincredubil02 - July 15, 2010
Good points all
The Braves, somehow, got rid of a guy they wanted to and then convinced the Blue Jays to give us prospects in return. Tremendous.
I realize people get on these boards and spout of statistics and UZRs and OPS and whatnot. But honestly people, the Braves front office does good work. They know baseball better than everyone on this board combined plus infinity. We rarely ever get screwed on a trade.
kalesi - July 14, 2010
We get screwed all the time
But there are a lot of factors when it comes to prospects
For Example the Javy trade this offseason
We sold him at peak value for Melky Cabrera, Arodys, and Dunn
If Arodys arm injury keeps him from realizing his potential then its a terrible trade!! !!@@ @!
UltimaParadox - July 14, 2010
/SARCASM
I understand the trade at the time in place, just like the Tex deal…
I am guessing the Escobar trade was just a pure player dump of a guy we dont like
UltimaParadox - July 14, 2010
I can understand that the Texieria deal is the one everyone points to. At the time, though, the Braves were a few games out, had a glaring hole at first base, and needed a middle of the order hitter. And, lets not forget, Tex played well. The rest of the team didn’t.
Sure, it was annoying to see Feliz and Andrus get all star nods from the Rangers. However, I would make the Tex trade 10 times out of 10. I don’t really see the Braves reeling from the deal three years later, either.
kalesi - July 14, 2010
I understand the Tex Deal
we got a star at 1st and he was awesome…
It is just apparent that this trade was a dump of a player we did not like for anything we could get in return
UltimaParadox - July 14, 2010
Baseball Prospectus seems to think we got screwed.
The only positive articles I’ve seen are from media types that talk about winning attitude and chemistry.
kbertling353 - July 14, 2010
Silly shit like that
I mean, really…where do they get the idea that this game is played by real people? Sheesh.
I was ambivalent about this deal but this thread is starting to really put me in it’s corner.
Sam Jethroe - July 15, 2010
I just want to say...
either way it least this gave us an intresting off day. Man it woukd have been boring here otherwise!
As for the trade I will reserve my judgement till this all pans out a little more.
ottie - July 14, 2010
Looking at his HR by Ball Park
TOR 9 HR (8th most HR friendly park)
BAL 3 (9th)
CHW 2 (3rd)
TEX 1 (7th)
TBR 1 (13th)
NYY 1 (2nd)
Hit Tracker Online has him as the most barely homers in the AL with 10
For reference Turner Field is 17th, so a power drop off is more than expected.
UltimaParadox - July 14, 2010
NL East Park ratings
PHI (5th)
WAS (16th)
FLA (21st)
NYM (28th)
I know these arent science, but he has hit most of homers in hitter friendly parks, and 10 of them barely.. Helps explain his jump this year
UltimaParadox - July 14, 2010
Yeah
Outside of Philly the NL East is murder on guys who have marginal HR power … His SLG is going to drop big in the 2nd half, and his OBP is going to remain awful.
Lennox - July 14, 2010
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/beware-the-jays-sluggers/
Quick Defense Projection
5/4/3 URZ: 5.1083
5/4/3 DPM: 5
Tango Scouting Report Reds: 3.4
Tango Scouting Report 4.09
So I would say a +5 defender at SS. Not bad though his bat will likely be unbearable.
TheBravestWay To Block A Decent Prospect - July 14, 2010
The majority of those "barelys" would have gone out here, too.
There’s been an overlay done on another thread.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
I'm tired of seeing people refer to Yunel as a "Top-5 Shortstop"
Do you think any fanbase in baseball views him the same way? No, and most would probably scoff at the notion that he might be top ten. The absolute only reason everyone thinks so highly of him is because he is a brave, nothing more.
Qtips - July 14, 2010
correction
WAS a brave
Qtips - July 14, 2010
He finished 5th among MLB SS in WAR last season
And like 3 people have said he was a top 5 SS. He was in one context. And one of those guys was only referring to the NL.
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
I know right
he is clearly the 6th best.
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=6&season=2010&month=12
TheBravestWay To Block A Decent Prospect - July 14, 2010
Awesome
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
so you would take escobar over jose reyes and michael young based solely on a bunch of made up statistics?
Qtips - July 14, 2010
Over Michael Young?
In a heartbeat. He sucked defensively at SS and his offensive numbers weren’t that good.
Wouldn’t take him over Jose Reyes, but he’s lower on the list because he’s been hurt.
This statistics isn’t any more made up than other ones.
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
Sorry but I would take Young.
I understand what you are saying but can you honestly say that at any point during escobar’s time on the DL you watched a game and said “man if yunel was in there at ss we would have made that play/won the game/etc.”? Personally, I don’t think I ever said that.
Qtips - July 14, 2010
So that is how you judge a player's worth?
If [name] was in there at [position] we could have won a game.
And yet you denounce WAR as a made up statistic.
TheBravestWay To Block A Decent Prospect - July 14, 2010
I judge a player's worth by what I see on the field every day.
Escobar is gone. Get over it. We got a better (2010) player. If you want to sit here and argue about it go right ahead.
Qtips - July 14, 2010
There's a reason teams use stats
In addition to what their scouts see on the field. Maybe you should take a lesson from them.
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
ok i will call up some of my bestest scout friends and ask them to wise me up so I can be as smart as you when it comes to judging a ballplayer.
Seriously, you watch the games, tell me where I am wrong:
-Escobar looks extremely uncomfortable swinging the bat. All was fine when he was putting up numbers, but now he is in a terrible slump and he looks like he is swinging a telephone pole at the plate.
-Escobar has a shit attitude. From the frosted tips to the arrogance at the plate and in the field.
-He seemed to be on Bobby’s shit list. Considering we were told in spring training how great chemistry was in the locker room, why can’t this guy stay out of the doghouse?
-I will grant you, he plays great defense most of the time, but don’t short sell Alex Gonzalez’s
Qtips - July 14, 2010
The question was whether I'd take Young over Escobar
Considering Young can’t play SS at all and Escobar plays it quite well I don’t think that’s a legitimate question.
What do frosted tips have to do with a shit attitude? I agree they look stupid, but using them as proof of a shit attitude is just dumb.
Everyone knows he was on Bobby’s shit list. I accept this as a reason for the trade. I don’t even hate the trade. I don’t know what this has to do with what we’ve been discussing.
I’m not selling Gonzalez short on his defense. He is very good. Where have I said anything different.
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
I feel dumber for reading that
Doghnut - July 14, 2010
yea
if you have frosted tips you suck WTF
Erihury - July 14, 2010
Oddly
He was traded right after losing them.
Maybe Bobby really loved them all along and got mad at Yunel for getting rid of them.
Sam Jethroe - July 15, 2010
Frosted tips = unworthy baseball player
Bronn - July 15, 2010
We had Infante at SS
He is far better defensively at SS than Young.
I don’t think you realize just how bad Michael Young was at SS.
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
If you don't like or don't understand WAR that's fine
it is not perfect but it’s no more of a made up statistic than RBI or Saves or any other stat really.
And I would take Escobar over Michael Young. Reyes is probably better but you would only control him for 1 year as opposed to 3 for Escobar.
TheBravestWay To Block A Decent Prospect - July 14, 2010
Let's not forget
Gonzalez may result in a comp pick when he leaves in 2 yrs!
:)
Qtips - July 14, 2010
He's not even close to compensatory status right now
Plus he’s the type that might except arbitration if offered it.
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
Not true at all.
He’s already in Type-B status among NL 2Bs and SSs.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
Alex Gonzalez is a million years old. Way past arbitration years.
-C
cthabeerman - July 14, 2010
Reply fail
-C
cthabeerman - July 14, 2010
All free agents are eligible for arbitration
Assuming the team offers it
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
For example, from this past offseason
Derosa (type b, old as balls, probably a good comp for what gonzalez may wind up being in 1.5 yrs)
Wagner
Gregg Zaun
Ivan Rodriiguez
BRIAN FUCKING SHOUSE!!
Qtips - July 14, 2010
doubt it
Alex Gonzalez does not project as a type B even with his monster first half…
So dont expect draft picks
UltimaParadox - July 15, 2010
Not true.
He is well within the Type B section.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
oh yeah BTW
Yunel Escobar still projects as a Type A
UltimaParadox - July 15, 2010
You're right
I knew they could go to arbitration but didn’t realize they HAD to offer in order to get a compensatory pick. Or did and just blew it out of my mind, because it’s exactly what happened with Soriano last season.
-C
cthabeerman - July 14, 2010
Yep
That’s how they get you.
nixa37 - July 14, 2010
wont be a problem
Alex Gonzalez wont be a Type B even, so no picks
UltimaParadox - July 15, 2010
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/07/elias-rankings-at-the-break.html
once you move him over to the NL, he moves solidly into the middle of the type B free agent pack.
telemakhos - July 15, 2010
from the blue jays board. hard to disagree with much here...we have most likely made a much bigger deal of this than we should have.
Braves may have won…
Braves need someone to step up now for their playoff run.
They get Gonzo for 1.5 years. If he continues to play like he has or close to it, they also probably get a Comp pick if he signs elsewhere.
As Fenix mentions, they get a potential set up man in Collins for 7 years. Pastornicky probably won’t amount to being a major leaguer, but he’s a nice throw-in, being young and with plenty of time to develop.
This for potentially good player, who’s already showing signs of inconsistency, and who’s only controlable for 3.5 seasons.
Time will tell who wins the trade, but I don’t see it as a slam dunk either way. Escobar kinda reminds me of Cabrera minus the stolen bases, which is pretty good. Looking forward to seeing him in a Jays uniform and hope he does well.
Qtips - July 14, 2010
Alex Gonzalez
Is not even a type B yet with his career first half
Remember elias rankings are based on two years of data, so one fluke year wont help you. Unless its amazing…
More than likely if we offer arbitration he will accept, as not many teams want a 34 year old shortstop for long term.
I would not be surprised if we decline his team option for next year, and we try to sign a SS on the free agent market
UltimaParadox - July 15, 2010
Yikes after looking at the projections
Escobar projects as a Type A right now… depressing
UltimaParadox - July 15, 2010
can you stop repeating yourself? It’s getting obnoxious.
telemakhos - July 15, 2010
i honestly feel kind of bad for yunel on a personal level. there’s just so much being said about how everyone in the clubhouse wanted him gone. after spending so much time around those guys, that’s got to be tough to hear.
Bravely going forward - July 14, 2010
Yea I know, he must feel like shit right now.
I hope he does GREAT in Toronto and gets a fresh start
Hudson's Soul Patch - July 15, 2010
He didn't suddenly change his attitude.
Not likely the guys around him changed theirs.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
I love it
Escobar was the weakest link. I’m liking the Braves playoff chances even more now.
David "Satch" Kelly - July 14, 2010
You know we were winning with him right?
Braves24 - July 14, 2010
good point
we were winning in spite of yunel. This sudden infusion of semi-talent will give this team a boost.
see what I did there?
telemakhos - July 15, 2010
We were winning in spite of Yunel’s 20 runs saved above average.
justincredubil02 - July 15, 2010
and the defense in this trade is a wash. What I’m talking about is that sweet .238/.334/.284 line yunel has contributed to the offense.
telemakhos - July 15, 2010
As sweet as that line is, Alex Gonzalez is only slighty better in AVG, worse in OBP and better in SLG
justincredubil02 - July 15, 2010
Not to mention that Alex only has 23 more hits in about 60 more ABs with about 4x as many Ks.
justincredubil02 - July 15, 2010
on the year, gonzalez has a 2.4 WAR to yunel’s 1.0
telemakhos - July 15, 2010
And over his career, he has a 11.4 WAR (IIRC) to Yunel’s 10 – in about half the seasons.
justincredubil02 - July 15, 2010
really weakest link
i think Nate might have something to say about that
Erihury - July 14, 2010
You must be Nate McLouth’s mom.
Mighty Healthy - July 15, 2010
No
I haven’t been following along as much as I should this season, until now. I’ve only seen about half of the games and, in those, Yunel seemed to struggle. That’s why he stood out to me. There was one recently where he looked almost asleep out there defensively. Gonzo seems like a pretty decent upgrade to me as we head into the final postseason race. I’ll have to research Nate a little to find out more about his alleged suckage.
David "Satch" Kelly - July 15, 2010
*sigh*
typical Saints fan… ;)
Hudson's Soul Patch - July 15, 2010
Yep
I may be a Saints fan, but when it comes to baseball, I’m all Braves and have been since I was kid watching Dale Murphy and Bob Horner. If the Braves win it this year, then all three of my fave teams will have won championships. If that happens, I might as well give up sports alltogether because it’ll never get better than this year.
David "Satch" Kelly - July 15, 2010
now
Alex Gonzalez is the weakest link, if we dont count Mclouth
UltimaParadox - July 15, 2010
i hope this doesnt turn into
Nate v2.0 i have a bad feeling it will but lets hope for the best
Erihury - July 15, 2010
Sad part is we gave up more for Alex Gonzalez than we gave up for Mclouth…
and Mclouth had better numbers than Alex Gonzalez coming in
UltimaParadox - July 15, 2010
i was at work
thinking about this trade for Nate we basically traded nothing for him. But now we are trading for a 33 year old guys career year i mean i know Bobby doesnt like Yunel but Bobby is gonna be gone next year and i know Fredi or whoever we hire is gonna be like him doesnt mean he is gonna be Bobby
Erihury - July 15, 2010
yeah
I really dont understand this trade from a baseball perspective
Most people agree Yunel still projects to be better this season than Alex Gonzalez… not even projecting forward in years..
It really was just a dump of a player we dont like, its the only thing I can wrap my head around
UltimaParadox - July 15, 2010
its very
obvious its because his bad attitude we are only 4 games up and not like 7 or 9Erihury - July 15, 2010
Gonzalez got fired BECAUSE he wouldn't put up with the kind of shit Yunel gives on a regular basis.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
We will be fine
We got rid of the guy who was a mental drag on the clubhouse while picking up a vet that defensively will hold down the position for 1.5 years at most.
I don’t think were done with moves and I could see a Ross or Hart being in a Braves uniform in the next two weeks. This would off set Yunel’s bat and any production we get from Gonzo in the 8 hole would be a plus. Even if we don’t make an additional move, I think we did what was best for the team.
Charmin519 - July 15, 2010
Buster Olney
told an interesting story on Sportscenter about how it was one of the Braves’ player’s birthday and Yunel went up to him to wish him a happy birthday. The player responded by saying that all he wanted for his birthday was for Yunel to play hard. Do you think it was Chipper?
Also, Olney thinks the Braves came out way ahead on this trade. I’m liking it the more I think about it. I more pumped to dump Jo Jo Reyes.
Huntington31 - July 15, 2010
i see the problem
there is Yunel shouldnt have wished him happy birthday he should have told him to
go fuck himself
Erihury - July 15, 2010
What a dick
Dude’s at least doing something nice and that’s how you react? I don’t care if you hate the guy, that’s not how you should treat a co-worker.
I don’t think Escobar did anything to help himself, but I don’t think the fact that he’s seems to be a different sort of cat than most of the important guys in the Braves clubhouse did much to help.
nixa37 - July 15, 2010
yea
I don’t really like that reaction. Escobar attitude can be bad at times, but I’m not sure discouraging him will help.
Braves24 - July 15, 2010
Not performing to the best of your abilities on the job isn't how you treat your coworkers, either.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
haha
Buster Olney is such a great baseball guy… ugh
UltimaParadox - July 15, 2010
he picked the phillies
to win the division UGH atleast he had us as the wildcard
Erihury - July 15, 2010
Was that SERIOUSLY an unreasonable prediction?
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
i don't understand some of the fans here
i rather have a player who is going to play every play hard rather than one who plays hard if he feels like it. i rather have a player that doesn’t bring a crappy attitude in his back pocket to pull it out when something doesn’t go his way. yes, yunel is young but he needs to grow-up sometime. i hope he plays well in canada. frank wren improved us tremendously.
williejay1 - July 15, 2010
not really
we got a guy who is having a career year at 33
Erihury - July 15, 2010
i'm hearing the word "streakiness" come up a lot when talking about gonzalez
and that concerns me, since it doesn’t look like he’ll be around for too long.
Bravely going forward - July 15, 2010
yea
his best season other then this is was 03 but he made the ASG in 99 that should count
for nothing lol
Erihury - July 15, 2010
i just want him to f*ing perform, because yunel was one of my favorite players.
Bravely going forward - July 15, 2010
In spite of the fact that he didn't f*ing perform, apparently.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
I'd rather have guys who are better at baseball
If the attitude is that big of a deal okay, but by no means is taking a play off now and then a reason to get rid of someone. All these guys work hard at baseball. They wouldn’t be where they are if they didn’t.
nixa37 - July 15, 2010
It's not "now and then..."
It’s something that’s been happening regularly for years.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
Right, because attitude and hustle win baseball games
Not the ability to actually play baseball. That only counts in video games.
nixa37 - July 15, 2010
Don't kid yourself
Playing hard in video games matters too.
Yakker - July 15, 2010
+1
buzzdeadwax - July 15, 2010
Everyone wants to argue that Gonzalez is having a career year, that’s it, and Yunel is an amazing player we dropped for shit in return because he is having a bad year. Well to sum it up in my opinion last year Yunel had a career year and that’s it.
You have to base future performance on the now, not the has been. Are there risks in this trade? Hell yeah, but at least I can sleep easier at night knowing we aren’t going to lose a first baseman because of flare.
Let us play for a week before we condemn FW to the pits of hell for this.
jdeuel3868 - July 15, 2010
you know
Yunel put up better numbers 07 and 08 then Gonzalez this year his best year
Erihury - July 15, 2010
You might have a point
If Escobar wasn’t also better than Gonzalez in every other single season he’s played. Maybe its just me, but I’m not going to throw out the results of the 370 games Escobar played before this season and only pay attention to the last 75.
nixa37 - July 15, 2010
Frank Wren Twitter quote
Love it
kauf67 - July 15, 2010
Sub .300 OBP, Frank. Sub. .300.
Lennox - July 15, 2010
In Frank Wren I trust.
We don’t know what goes on in that clubhouse
kauf67 - July 15, 2010
I hope you don't think that's actually Frank Wren
nixa37 - July 15, 2010
No shit
kauf67 - July 15, 2010
You never know
Some people really are that dumb. There’s no IQ test to use the interwebs
nixa37 - July 15, 2010
Still a pretty hilarious twitter account to keep up with though
kauf67 - July 15, 2010
I’m truly disappointed.
Bravely going forward - July 15, 2010
it just kinda sucks
we gave up on him faster then we did on Frenchy and Frenchy was downright horrible at times
Erihury - July 15, 2010
it really depresses me the more i think about it. i really hoped yunel would be around for a long time, that he would blossom under freddie’s leadership…it’s such a shame.
Bravely going forward - July 15, 2010
i dont even
understand the bad clubhouse thing. Yunel could hardly speak english. the frosted tips must have pissed Bobby off
Erihury - July 15, 2010
After six years in the US...
Isn’t that something of a problem?
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
Fredi?
He got FIRED for not putting up with exactly the same kind of shit Yunel pulls on a regular basis.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
Well...
His attitude was shit, but he was still likeable among his teammates and coaches. Not so with Yunie.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
You would think we just traded Heyward for a bag of shit with the reaction around here.
Yunel wasn’t the reason we have been winning. You gotta roll the dice at times if you want to win it all. Get behind Alex and forget about Yunel Escobar for pete’s sake.
Qtips - July 15, 2010
his
D has been kinda a reason we were winning hopefully Gonzalez D is good enough
Erihury - July 15, 2010
Seriously, that's your take away from this?
Surely people aren’t pissed because we just made our team worse for this season because Escobar wasn’t liked in the clubhouse. There may be more to it than we know. Maybe Escobar is the biggest douche in the universe. Maybe he just rubbed Chipper and Bobby the wrong way, so he got picked on like the red headed kid in elementary school. The point is people are pissed that we didn’t more for Escobar. If it was this bad they should have moved him in the offseason when his value was higher.
nixa37 - July 15, 2010
i mean players
put up with guys like AJ Pierzynski, Carl Everrett, Gary Sheffield, John Rocker and Bary Bonds
but not Yunel. Bobby and Chipper wont even be on the team next year they cant put up with him for the rest of the season
Erihury - July 15, 2010
I don’t think Chipper is retiring
Braves24 - July 15, 2010
As they said...
“It’s something you can deal with when a guy is hitting .300.” Escobar wasn’t close.
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
one thing
agon may not post the same numbers that he’s posted the first half of the season, and that s fine by me. the thing is his positive attitude and hustle on and off the field will be a great improvement from what we just traded away. i would want 9 players like agon then one player like yunel.
Daniel Fordham - July 15, 2010
then you would
basically be the Royals or Astros
Erihury - July 15, 2010
Yep
Guys who try harder are always better at baseball. I’m sure your team of 9 Darren Erstad’s would kick the crap out of my 9 JD Drews.
nixa37 - July 15, 2010
I’d rather have guys who were good at baseball.
justincredubil02 - July 15, 2010
so much for pop
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/beware-the-jays-sluggers/
Erihury - July 15, 2010
*tear
justincredubil02 - July 15, 2010
*vomit
Hudson's Soul Patch - July 15, 2010
Well, I would settle for HITS in key situations consistently over home runs every once in a blue moon.
Instead of thinking we got ourselves a slugger, I’m hoping Gonzalez will drive in runs since we’re getting men on base a ton this year between our offense and getting walks.
Plus, we have the added benefit of not worrying that Gonzalez will go on the DL because of his on deck circle calisthenics.
NCChopper - July 15, 2010
+1
MichaelProcton - July 22, 2010
OPS+ as a comparison (possible silver lining)
An OPS+ of 100 is as average as you can get. This season:
Escobar: 70 (pretty terrible—Juan Pierre territory)
Gonzalez: 99 (average)
Assuming they are a wash on defense (which they might not be—Escobar probably has a slight edge), we’re increasing the offensive production of our SS position. If Gonzalez plays out the rest of the season at his career OPS+ of 81, that’s still an improvement over what we had in the first half out of our SS, and we have the best record in the National League (hell, he’d have to hit like Yadier Molina to hit any worse). I also like having the piece of mind knowing that Alex Gonzalez is, at the very least, a proven and predictable commodity who, by all accounts, plays his heart out every day, while Escobar has been a coin toss in his Atlanta career.
I’m warming to the trade, especially knowing the Gonzalez has some thump in his bat that should play well as long as the lineup in front of him keeps getting on base at a NL-leading rate. I don’t know if it makes the team better for sure, but I don’t think it makes us any worse, and that 15 K/9 lefty minor leaguer certainly softens the blow.
FineHamAbounds - July 15, 2010
Why does everyone say things like “Assume that Gonzalez goes back to his career average in the 2nd half, that is still better than what Yunel did in the 1st half?”
That is absolutely irrelevant. Yunel’s first half was his first half. If we assume Gonalez to regress back to his norm, we have to assume that Yunel will too – which means we lose this trade – BIG TIME.
justincredubil02 - July 15, 2010
You can't assume anything really
It’s a gamble either way.
But it seems to me that players who are having great years tend to continue to have great years and players who are having bad years continue to do so. Not always obviously, but seemingly more often than the corrective second half.
It’s the next season where a fall back to earth is more common, particularly if they’ve just fattened their wallet with a shiny new contract.
DCP916 - July 15, 2010
Exactly. Like when you go to Vegas and the roulette wheel lands on 00. It’s more likely that it’s going to keep landing on 00 again and again.
Yakker - July 15, 2010
I’ve missed you.
justincredubil02 - July 15, 2010
Wesley Snipes would like a word with you and your "theories"...
buzzdeadwax - July 15, 2010
No way! It’s more likely to land on 00 if it hasn’t landed there in a long time!
FineHamAbounds - July 15, 2010
I didn't say "assume."
I said “even if…” I don’t think Gonzalez will hit as well as he has in the first half, nor do I think Escobar will play as poorly, but since we traded one SS for another, we have to compare their production as players on our team. If Braves shortstop X posts a 70 OPS+ in the first half, then an OPS+ of 90 in the second half, it doesn’t matter that they’re 2 different people. Our SS improved at the plate. Is Escobar’s ceiling higher? Yes. Is he reliable, no.
FineHamAbounds - July 15, 2010
After catching up on yet another Escobar trade thread ..
I’m almost to the point of looking forward to some actual play on the field so we can discuss something else.
(I may be the only one though)
After reading everyone’s posts, I still feel the same way I did yesterday.
. . .
I wish Yunel success (and maturity) in Toronto.
Perhaps a change of venue will be just the thing he needs to become the baseball player he has the potential to be.
He has a magnificent arm, but I for one will be happy to see someone who hustles to the base (every time) and has a pretty good chance of connecting with the bat. Especially with our ability to get men on base this season.
We however, have a pennant (and more) to win and this is Bobby’s last year.
I want Wren and the organization to do whatever is necessary to increase our chances to make that happen – this year.
.
NCChopper - July 15, 2010
Anyone know what jersey number Gonzalez will wear? I have a graphic to make. :-)
NCChopper - July 15, 2010
What graphic are you going to use?
justincredubil02 - July 15, 2010
The jersey “hit” one I made for all the players.
NCChopper - July 15, 2010
The AJC shows him as #7 – but the Braves official site still hasn’t put a number by his name.
NCChopper - July 15, 2010
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