Thanks to TC member EricGreggWasPaidOff for giving me the idea for this post.
It's no secret that Kenshin Kawakami is off to a poor start in 2010. It's also no secret that his win-loss record with the Braves is very poor (7-18 at last count). That record is not indicative of his performance, however. As most of you know, KK has received very little run support throughout his Atlanta tenure: only 65 runs of support in 38 games (31 starts). Though his ERA this year is 5.73, his overall ERA with the Braves is still a solid 4.18.
These wide gaps have caused much debate on Talking Chop. Some members have been calling for KK to be moved to the bullpen, saying that he's just not an MLB-caliber starter. Others have been saying that he's perhaps the best 5th starter in all of baseball (I've made a similar claim). The goal of this post is to determine just where Kenshin ranks relative to other MLB starters. Is he a solid #4 starter or a poor #5 starter (or somewhere in between)? If he is a #5 starter, how many teams would like to have him in their rotations?
There are 3 steps to this process:

To start, I took a sample of all the pitchers who had started at least 1 MLB game as of Sunday (there were 177 in all). My next step was to determine how to rank them. I counted only a pitcher's numbers as a starter. I had two main components to my ranking: (1) a pitcher's ability to eat innings and (2) his run prevention.
For the first component, I totaled the number of innings each pitcher had pitched as a starter since the beginning of the 2009 season. For run prevention, I looked at a player's ERA, FIP, and xFIP*. Since both FIP and xFIP are on the same scale as ERA, they are directly comparable. If you don't like fancy stats like FIP, just think of it as a proxy for a pitcher's peripheral stats like walks, strikeouts, and home runs.
* For those of you who are unfamiliar with these stats, FIP (or Fielding-Independent Pitching statistic) measures how effective a pitcher has been using only 3 components: strikeouts, walks, and home runs allowed. xFIP is a variant of FIP that also takes into account a pitcher's ground-ball rate (more ground balls are good) and his home run / fly ball rate. The theory is that a pitcher who gives up homers on a high percentage of his fly balls is unlucky and should have given up fewer HRs, so a higher HR/FB rate will equal a lower xFIP.
So as to minimize the damage of small sample sizes, I used a player's ERA, FIP, and xFIP from this year and from 2009 (or in a few cases, the last year in which the pitcher started a game in MLB). However, I made one key adjustment: I gave double weight to a player's 2010 numbers. I did this because I recognize that a player's recent performance should bear more weight than his less-recent performance. In other words, "What have you done for me lately?" For example, I treated Kawakami's 2010 numbers as if they came in 66 innings rather than 33. Using these figures, Kenshin's ERA for my rankings is 4.53 (without the adjustment, it would have been 4.30).
Here are some graphs showing how the Braves' starters stack up with the rest of the league in each of the 4 categories used in this study. In these graphs, a smaller shaded area (closer to the center) indicates a better ranking. The dashed lines represent the outer boundary of each rotation slot. Thus, any point that is within the innermost dashed diamond is equivalent to a #1 starter-type performance. Within the second-smallest diamond indicates a #2 starter, and so on. Here is Jair Jurrjens' graph:
JJ's ERA and IP are indicative of a borderline #1 starter. His FIP is more like that of a borderline #2 starter, however, and his xFIP is that of a #4 starter. I'll let you guys decide which to place more credence in, but on average you'd have to say Jurrjens is a decent #2 starter. Now, Tommy Hanson:
The only thing holding Tommy back from true acehood is his IP mark. As he develops and starts becoming more of a workhorse, he'll clearly be an ace--his ERA and FIP are #1 starter-worthy, and his xFIP is not far behind. Here's Derek Lowe's graph:
This is where it gets interesting. We all know about Lowe's crappy ERA with the Braves. But he has thrown a lot of innings (which has value) and his peripherals indicate that he's actually been a solid #3 starter. His xFIP is so good because he has had a great groundball rate. Speaking of GB pitchers, how about Tim Hudson?
Hudson's IP ranking is low because of his injury (which makes sense, because an ace isn't much good if he's not healthy--see Webb, Brandon). Both ERA and xFIP think Hudson could be a #1 or #2 starter, but FIP thinks he's only a borderline #3 because of his low strikeout rates. Finally, here's Kawakami's graph:
Kawakami has accrued a solid number of innings--equal to a #3 starter. His run-prevention stats are less flattering, but they still indicate a solid MLB pitcher. You may think that those rankings are not impressive, but remember that there are at least 150 starters in MLB at any given time. Even if you take the most pessimistic stat--his xFIP rank of #130--he is still clearly deserving of being an MLB starter. If you prefer ERA to the advanced metrics, KK is actually a very good #4 starter.
To do this, I took the average of each player's ERA, FIP, and xFIP as computed above. I call this stat RPA, or Run Prevention Average. I then calculated each pitcher's ranking in RPA and in Innings Pitched.
I used the average of those two rankings to form a "Rotation Score" between 0.5 and 6.5 (lower is better). When a pitcher's Rotation Score is rounded to the nearest whole number, that is his slot in the average rotation. So a Rotation Score of 1.75 indicates a good #2 starter, 3.00 is an average #3 starter, and 4.45 indicates a pitcher who is just barely good enough to be a #4 starter. A score above 5.5 indicates a pitcher that probably should be in AAA or the bullpen.
Here are the RPA ranks, IP ranks, and Rotation Scores of the Braves' pitchers:
| Starter | RPA Rank | IP Rank | Rotation Score |
| Jurrjens | 54 | 33 | 1.95 |
| Hanson | 12 | 87 | 2.15 |
| Lowe | 108 | 44 | 3.03 |
| Hudson | 39 | 132 | 3.35 |
| Kawakami | 115 | 83 | 3.80 |
| Medlen | 116 | 170 | 5.27 |
According to this metric, Jurrjens and Hanson are average #2 starters and Lowe is an average #3. Hudson is a low-end #3 and Medlen is a #5. Kawakami, meanwhile, ranks as a very good #4 starter. Obviously, the trends are different for each player (JJ, Lowe, and KK seem to be getting worse while Tommy, Timmy, and Kris are improving) but as of right now, KK is inarguably a major-league-quality starter. Even if you ignore the IP ranking, his RPA rank of 115 would still identify him as a #4 starter (though he'd be borderline).
To give you a better idea of what the Rotation Scores mean, here is a breakdown of each rotation slot and some of the pitchers who have Rotation Scores that qualify for that slot.
#1 Starter
Best #1: Roy Halladay (Rotation Score-- 0.55)
Mid-level #1s: CC Sabathia and Josh Johnson (1.00 each)
Worst #1: Ryan Dempster (1.45)
#2 Starter
Best #2s: Matt Garza and Javier Vazquez (1.53 each)
Mid-level #2s: Brett Anderson (2.00) and Andy Pettitte (2.03)
Worst #2s: Jeff Niemann and Bronson Arroyo (2.45 each)
#3 Starter
Best #3: John Lackey (2.50)
Mid-level #3s: Doug Fister (3.00) and Derek Lowe (3.03)
Worst #3: Ross Ohlendorf (3.48)
#4 Starter
Best #4s: Gio Gonzalez, Wade Davis, and Aaron Cook (3.57 each)
Mid-Level #4s: Kyle Lohse (3.98) and Brian Matusz (4.02)
Worst #4s: Ian Snell (4.45) and Fausto Carmona (4.48)
#5 Starter
Best #5s: Nelson Figueroa and Homer Bailey (4.50 each)
Mid-Level #5s: Charlie Morton (4.97) an Mitch Talbot (5.00)
Worst #5: Chris Young (5.47)
Just Missed the Cut: Kyle Kendrick and Brian Burres (5.55)
Finally, I sorted the Rotation Scores by team and looked for teams that had 5 guys who are clearly better than Kenshin Kawakami. There were only 2 teams that clearly would not start Kawakami: the Rays (Shields, Garza, Niemann, Price, and Davis) and the Yankees (Sabathia, Vazquez, Burnett, Pettitte, and Hughes).
Two other teams might not start Kawakami. The Cubs have 5 guys rated higher (Dempster, Wells, Lilly, Zambrano, and Gorzelanny), but one of them (Carlos Zambrano) has been moved to the bullpen in favor of Carlos Silva, who is rated much lower than Kawakami. The Rockies, if all their starters are healthy, might also be able to trot out 5 guys better than KK (Jimenez, de la Rosa, Hammel, Chacin, and Cook).
The other 26 teams could all use the services of KK, though. In fact, some of them would downright LOVE to have him. For instance, Kawakami's Rotation Score would be the second-best on the Indians' staff, only a hair behind Justin Masterson's (Fausto Carmona is probably their best pitcher now, but he sucked so much last year that his score is still mediocre). At worst, Kawakami is a #3 starter on the Indians.
Kawakami's Rotation Score would also be the 3rd best on 7 teams' staffs: Astros, Blue Jays, Diamondbacks, Nationals, Orioles, Rangers, and Royals.
KK's Rotation Score would be the 4th best in 5 teams' rotations: Angels, Mariners, Mets, Pirates, and Tigers.
Finally, KK would be the 5th starter on 12 more teams (plus the Braves): A's, Brewers, Cardinals, Dodgers, Giants, Marlins, Padres, Phillies, Red Sox, Reds, Twins, and White Sox. The Twins might opt to go with Kevin Slowey (3.83) over KK for the 5th spot, so they are a borderline case. The others are more clear-cut.
Altogether, that is 25 teams that clearly would start Kawakami versus only 2 teams that clearly would not and 3 teams on the borderline. On 13 teams, he would probably be even better than their current 4th starter.
I am sure that you could argue that the Braves should not have signed Kawakami, or that they should not have given him so much money, but I think you'd have a very hard time arguing that he doesn't belong as a major-league starter. At least for right now. If he continues to pitch poorly, these numbers could change quickly. I don't think that will happen, though. Based on his past performance, I would expect him to get it together before long.
It's worth noting that last year at this time Kawakami had a 5.73 ERA--exactly the same as his current ERA. From May 16th to the end of the season last year, his ERA was a sparkling 3.33. I think it's unlikely that he'll be quite that good for the rest of 2010, but I also think it's extremely likely that he will be much better than he has been so far.
13 recs | 253 comments
Golf clap....
Great work as usual
mj10catchit10 - May 13, 2010
0 wins?!?! 6 losses?!?!
Gah he’s terrible
one
That was amazing work, I agree completely, it might help if he got some runs to work with on occassion though.
BravesRaleigh - May 13, 2010
Yes.
That would definitely help. It’s hard to win when the team scores 0 runs.
Jacob Peterson - May 13, 2010
It’s also hard to expect a major league pitcher to continue to post up a sub 2 ERA for 1+ season in order to win games.
UMDBHIK - May 13, 2010
Maybe Kawakami isn’t that bad. But Medlen’s numbers in the minors and as a reliever show he is way better. He had 2 or 3 bad starts that make his numbers look ugly.
Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela - May 13, 2010
Perhaps Medlen will be better, but he hasn’t shown it yet as a starter. Actually, I am sure that he will be. But these numbers are based on what has happened, not what will or might happen.
Jacob Peterson - May 13, 2010
Medlen's numbers cover five starts?
His first four games in the majors last year and the one this year? Pretty hard to say anything about him with data only as a starter. It will be interesting to see how he does if he fills in for Jair.
GTwill - May 13, 2010
I said the same thing
3 ugly starts don’t mean anything. His numbers in the minors are better than Jurjenjs’ had with Detroit affiliates.
Medlen is young, has upside and won’t be worse than either Kawakami or Lowe right now. When Jurjens comes back one of the two veterans has to be moved to the bullpen to make room for Medlen.
Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela - May 13, 2010
Don't misinterpret
I’m not dissing Kris at all. I know it’s a small sample, but it was the only applicable data I had. Obviously he’s better than he’s shown so far as a starter. In time, he’ll prove it. What his mediocre Rotation Score represents is the uncertainty that is present with any young pitcher who does not set the world on fire at first.
While he certainly has the ability to be a #3 or better, he hasn’t proved that he’s there yet, and that is all the Rotation Score is designed to measure. It’s not predictive, just descriptive.
Jacob Peterson - May 14, 2010
I also don’t think it’s fair to compare Kawakami to AL pitchers. You should have made an adjustment to the league because the difference, even though it’s not large, is still significant.
Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela - May 13, 2010
So far in 2010
There has been no meaningful difference in runs scored between the leagues, so you know. There was a minor one in 2009, but I think the difference between the leagues is generally overstated.
I would have included neutralized stats if there was an easily available version of FIP or something like it that was neutral.
Jacob Peterson - May 13, 2010
Does FIP neutralize for leagues?
And yeah, over the last 4 years the AL has averaged .001 better OPS and .01 more runs/game.
acie4mvp - May 13, 2010
No
Starters will have slightly more Ks and slightly fewer BBs in the NL b/c they get to face the pitcher. But it is not a huge amount in this context.
For xFIP, with its focus on GB/FB and HR/FB, I’d imagine that it’s even less of a difference between the leagues.
Jacob Peterson - May 13, 2010
What I mean is. The AL in interleagues has had like a .570 winning pct against the NL the last 4 or 5 years.
Maybe there is no difference in scoring, but the level of competition is better. So good and great talent would thrive in the AL (Yunel, Heyward, Hanson, Chipper, Wagner, Kimbrel, etc), but mediocre talent would be crushed (like Kawakami, Derek Lowe, McLouth, etc)
So I think the comparison should be made strictly for NL teams. We can’t certainly know how Kawakami’s numbers would change if he were in the Yankees, or Twins or Rangers.
Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela - May 13, 2010
I don't know if I buy that that is a league difference.
I think it’s more of a division difference. Outside of the AL East, the AL is actually pretty bad. I think any team that competes in the NL would win the AL central or west.
If there are any stats that give extra credit to AL East pitchers, I’d like to see them.
Jacob Peterson - May 13, 2010
statcorner.com has tRA+ that adjusts for league and Starting Pitcher/Relief Pitcher.
TheBravestWay To Block A Decent Prospect - May 14, 2010
Yeah that's great and all
but it’s not really what I was asking for though.
Jacob Peterson - May 14, 2010
Kawakami sucks. He’s awful. His ERA is 5.73. He’s 0-6. He’ll never win a game. I think we should trade him to Arby’s for two beef ’n cheddars and if they kick in a side of curly fries we should consider ourselves the winner in the trade. A Japanese man ate my father.
- Saskatchewan Sylvester
BraveSaluki - May 13, 2010
At least a beef ’n cheddar sandwich tastes better!
TonyAlmeyda - May 13, 2010
He wouldn’t taste nearly as good as Asian reporter Tricia Takanawa.
UMDBHIK - May 13, 2010
Definitely not.
TonyAlmeyda - May 13, 2010
Mighty tasty Asian, right there.
Chopaholic - May 14, 2010
“Yeah, but we’d just be hungry again in an hour.”
FineHamAbounds - May 14, 2010
Or
Toyota Kawasaki
Blue or CONKZILLA - May 14, 2010
Thats ridiculous,
but at least you picked a tasty sandwich. I just wish we had Arbys in VT.
Stephen Schmidt - May 13, 2010
Im pretty sure he might start on the Red Sox
bestbostonsports - May 13, 2010
Yeah, I think so.
He’s almost certainly better than Matsuzaka and Wakefield. As much as KK might be overpaid, Dice-K is way way worse.
Jacob Peterson - May 13, 2010
god does DiceK suck
bestbostonsports - May 13, 2010
I’d keep him around just because I like saying “Kawakami”.
Richard R - May 13, 2010
Very good, sir.
TonyAlmeyda - May 13, 2010
But... but....
He doesn’t win many games!! And wins are the more important stat out there!!!! Other baseless comments that demonstrate lack of understanding of statistics and baseball!!!!
Seriously, though, great work. I love stuff like this.
sunking1056 - May 13, 2010
FACT: Tyler Clippard is better than Roy Halladay!!
TonyAlmeyda - May 13, 2010
+1
TrailBraves49 - May 13, 2010
lol
Jacob Peterson - May 13, 2010
really?
bestbostonsports - May 13, 2010
But not as good as Michael Leighton. So he has that going for himself, which is nice.
UMDBHIK - May 13, 2010
ha. ha.
Bruins will win game 7.
bestbostonsports - May 13, 2010
I hope you’re right. The road to the Cup just got a little bit easier last night.
UMDBHIK - May 13, 2010
oh yeah no Pittsburgh
bestbostonsports - May 13, 2010
go habs
MacsGlasses - May 13, 2010
You shut your mouth when you’re talking to me!
UMDBHIK - May 13, 2010
Obviously!
Here’s the Proof.
Also, Zack Greinke is the worst pitcher in baseball!
Jacob Peterson - May 13, 2010
Never listin to fangraphs.
bestbostonsports - May 13, 2010
Greinke's numbers are considerably better than Kawakami though.
He plays for the Royals, which should be a handicap.
Tim Goad - May 13, 2010
Uh.
Yeah.
You aren’t good with sarcasm, are you?
Jacob Peterson - May 13, 2010
Actually, im real good with sarcasm.
I was stating that trying to compare Greinke to Kawakami because they both have 0 wins is asinine.
Tim Goad - May 14, 2010
Not anymore!
Greinke has WINZ!
UMDBHIK - May 13, 2010
Wins are the most important stat, but sometimes “tough-luck” is a stat too. Kawakami would have at least 3 wins if it hadn’t been for the poor offense—granted he’s bad, but run support only makes it worse. I’d say he’s good enough to win this game if the Braves continue on with their hitting power.
Joseph_C - May 13, 2010
You win.
Bravely going forward - May 13, 2010
Love the analysis
But one quibble. Wouldn’t innings pitched per game started be a better barometer of a pitcher’s ability to eat innings than total amount of innings pitched? I understand that it’s important for a pitcher to not be hurt, but is a guy that only goes 5.1 a game for the last 1+ seasons really more valuable as a starter than a guy like Hudson who goes 6+ innings when, you know, he’s not recovering from surgery?
BraveSaluki - May 13, 2010
You could make that argument.
I didn’t want to underrate the importance of staying healthy, though. The fact is that Hudson has not provided the Braves with as much value in the past year-plus because of the injury. It’d be silly to ignore that.
IP/S is useful, too, though. Maybe I should have averaged the overall IP rank and the IP/S rank.
Jacob Peterson - May 13, 2010
You can’t really fault a guy for TJ surgery.
When Healthy, Huddy is WAY above KK on that scale.
ATLandUNC - May 13, 2010
I'm not faulting him
It’s just a fact that he hasn’t thrown as many innings.
Obviously, Huddy is a better pitcher than KK. As the season goes on, if he makes all his starts, Tim will vault into the #2 starter range in all likelihood.
Jacob Peterson - May 13, 2010
in the context of what teams he would start for though, injury wouldn’t really factor in. I wouldn’t play kawakami over brandon webb just because webb is injured a lot. Only when webb goes down does kawakami get a shot.
telemakhos - May 14, 2010
Zack Greinke is going to be 0-5 after today...
Still take him in a heartbeat!!!
strider15 - May 13, 2010
Maybe the Royals would trade him straight up for DLowe?
Make the call Frank!
UMDBHIK - May 13, 2010
We're spoiled
Plain and simple. We have one of the best rotations in baseball and Braves fans bitch because our #5 has a 5.00 ERA
Meds will eventually be a good #3, but he’s more valuable out of the pen right now.
Fatvirus - May 13, 2010
+1
Joseph_C - May 13, 2010
Our #1 has a 5.00+ ERA, as well….D. Lowe, THE ACE!!
EricGreggWasPaidOff - May 14, 2010
Interesting...
But can we really assume that he will progress to the mean when we only have one season of 25 starts to use for said mean? Granted, his stats through six starts last year were very nearly identical. I just don’t think one year gives us any basis for expectations.
Biggus Rickus - May 13, 2010
It gives us just as much a clue as Tommy Hanson’s performances over the past two seasons. In fact, it’s likely to be more accurate because Hanson started at a lower level last year.
Why can’t we trust the numbers on one guy because the perception of him is bad, but trust the numbers on another because the perception of him is good??
-C
cthabeerman - May 13, 2010
Good question.
I’ll do my best to answer it. Hanson’s minor league WHIPs, aside from an anomalous 11 starts at Myrtle Beach, were consistently excellent, and his K/9 rate never dipped below 9.6. He also cut down on his home runs allowed as he progressed. So his minor league track record indicates that he can, perhaps should become a dominant starter barring injuries.
I can’t find those kinds of detailed stats on Kawakami, and I’m leary of stats attained in Japanese leagues anyway. His K/9 seemed acceptable, and it was acceptable for the Braves last year. So far this year it’s been markedly worse, but at least he’s cut down on walks. I’m not saying it’s impossible that he’s just a slow starter and will turn things around again. I’m just saying I don’t see why it would be assumed.
Biggus Rickus - May 13, 2010
Not to over-argue this point, but you’re willing to give creedance to minor league statistics, but not to the statistics that earned Kawakami the Japanese equivalent of the Cy Young and ROY awards??
-C
cthabeerman - May 13, 2010
Yes...
Because I think Japanese baseball is only slightly better than high A ball.
Biggus Rickus - May 13, 2010
Everything I've read
Suggests that Japanese baseball is considered by most critics to be played at a much higher level than that, up to and above AAA.
-C
cthabeerman - May 13, 2010
I meant in terms of raw ability of the players...
Experience would obviously improve the game, compared to that of a bunch of raw 20 year-olds. It’s hard to directly compare all the minors to the Japanese league, especially with the rate of turnover. Whatever its merits, the Japanese league is also a place where Tuffy Rhodes and Alex Cabrera can share the single season home run record with Oh.
Biggus Rickus - May 13, 2010
I'd mostly agree with this.
Based on everything I’ve heard (and actually seen, for that matter) in the past 20 years of watching baseball – Japanese leagues seem to be about on par with AAA.
EricGreggWasPaidOff - May 14, 2010
mike hessman dominates AAA
enough said.
telemakhos - May 14, 2010
If you know something about age and performance, you’d know that a finesse pitcher at 35 is almost at the poing of falling off a cliff.
Kawakami is 35 and finesse.
Also, japanese batters are finesse batters. They put the ball in the ground trying to find a hole to reach base, they bunt a lot. It’s different baseball.
You just can’t compare Tommy Hanson who has way much better stuff and is 23 to Kawakami.
Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela - May 13, 2010
I never said Kawakami was better
I’m saying that you if you can consider Hanson’s numbers in the minors worthy of your confidence, then you should be able to consider Kawakami’s YEARS of experience in Japanese leagues just as worthy of confidence.
He has a proven track record at a high level of play, whereas Hanson has a couple outstanding years at a generally lower level of play.
And your statement about the difference of players actually affirms my argument. Kawakami wasn’t pitching against inexperienced hitters in Japan. They make contact, they move runners, they score runs. And he was the best pitcher in those leagues.
How many AAA ball players have huge holes in their swings, no plate discipline, etc.?? Plenty. The Japanese league has less of those issues, although the athleticism and power may not be as prevalent. They use a bigger ball, which is easier to hit, etc. So while it may not be a power-driven league, you’re facing more experience and it’s actually more hitter-friendly than our minor league counterparts.
-C
cthabeerman - May 13, 2010
Difference of leagues*
cthabeerman - May 13, 2010
Way to write a lot without addressing the biggest hole in your argument. KK is 35 – it’s entirely possible that his decline phase has gone into high gear.
buzzdeadwax - May 13, 2010
Exactly. Kawakami is 35. He is in the downside of his career. He won’t improve, he’ll get worse. Medlen has the upside.
Alvaro Andres Pizza Varela - May 13, 2010
You act as if Kawakami is a pitcher for the future
We have him for one more year.
Going by the average age acceleration rate, he should be 36 then.
O NOEZ, NOT 36!!!!!!!!!!!
I didn’t address this “hole” because it’s not an issue. But, by all means, keep railing on it. I wouldn’t want you to start talking sense out of the blue.
-C
cthabeerman - May 14, 2010
KK is 34?
Correct?
Nova Scotia Steve - May 14, 2010
DUDE HE’S SUPER OLD AND HE SUCKS WE SHUD TRADE HIM FOR GRATE PLAYERS BECUZ WE NEED GRATE PLAYERS NOT SUCKY PLAYERS SO WE SHOULD TRADE HIM FOR GRATE PICHERS OR MAYBE A 3B BECAUSE I WOOD LIKE THAT.
-C
cthabeerman - May 14, 2010
+ however many you want. Well-done!
justincredubil02 - May 14, 2010
But seriously, he turns 35 in about a month. And we all know how finesse pitchers throw at 35. Just ask Alvaro, he’ll tell you.
-C
cthabeerman - May 14, 2010
Again, way to change things around to suit your argument
No one is acting like this. You say that KK’s going to get better as the season progresses because of his “YEARS of experience in Japanese leagues”. I’m saying that while those years of experience provide the track record, they also indicate that he may be in his decline phase. People don’t improve out of their decline phase. Perhaps you can acknowledge that there’s a possiblity – however slight – that he’s experiencing more than just a slow start.
buzzdeadwax - May 14, 2010
I never said he’ll get better because of the years in Japan. I’m saying that his years there establish a track record of why his currents stats are just as credible as Hanson’s were in the minor leagues.
Do I think he’ll get better?? Sure. His last start was pretty good, if you throw out a costly error by Infante that was ruled a hit and Melky’s non-throw to the plate. That’s two runs lost by his defense that were put on him.
Other than that, he pitched pretty well. Gave up three homers, but they were all solo shots. If that game was played in Atlanta, he would’ve had 3ER over almost seven innings instead of the five (actually less because Polanco’s HR wouldn’t have been a HR anywhere but in that ballpark, but that’s another argument). His ERA would have gone down a little instead of up.
He’s just had some bad luck in other starts, which has greatly contributed to his lack of wins. This just happens to be one of those cases where the numbers don’t necessarily bear out the truth.
If you have some direct evidence that leads you to believe that he’s in a decline, I’d love to hear it. Right now, all I’m hearing is that it’s his age, which is about as circumstantial an argument as you can find. There’s been plenty of pitchers, especially finesse pitchers, that have done just fine at his age and beyond. Although he’s clearly not of their caliber, Maddux and Glavine pitched very well for us at 35, Moyer is still going strong at ancient.
If you were to argue he’s lost some velocity (which I couldn’t tell you if he has or hasn’t), that would be a direct indication that he’s lost something. But no one’s doing that. They just point to the number 35 and say, “Look.” Then they pretend it’s a water-tight argument.
The thing is, this whole study was done using his current numbers, which aren’t great, and he still ranks above a lot of pitchers throwing in the five slot. But everyone is so quick to the “Point and look” school of thought, which is far inferior to the evidence reported in this article.
-C
cthabeerman - May 14, 2010
I'm not saying that I want him to be in decline, only that it's a possibility
I don’t have any evidence to prove he’s in decline. You don’t have any evidence to prove that he isn’t. No big deal – we want the same thing, which is for KK to pitch well.
buzzdeadwax - May 14, 2010
You realize that KK started last year slowly and ended up being downright brilliant, right?
Perhaps he is just a slow starter?
justincredubil02 - May 14, 2010
Could be
I’d certainly prefer it. I just get argumentative when people are too certain about something they shouldn’t be so certain about. :-)
buzzdeadwax - May 14, 2010
Oh, by the way...
…son of sourman, is that you?!?!?
buzzdeadwax - May 14, 2010
Haha, whatever happened to that guy. Banned I imagine.
Smoltz's Beard - May 14, 2010
Banned
He went on some tirade after gondeee did a series of interviews with propect-watchers (Law, Goldstein) about how stupid the questions were and that a monkey was smarter (or some other type of insult). It was like suicide by cop – without the gravity or actual dying part.
buzzdeadwax - May 14, 2010
Good times.
Smoltz's Beard - May 14, 2010
Dude, the comment about a list of people who have been banned and why is genius. We need to make that happen!
justincredubil02 - May 14, 2010
His age is a great reason why the Braves should deal him...
…if they continue to struggle.
mrHonline - May 13, 2010
Because other teams won’t know that he is 35. Sneak attack!
BraveSaluki - May 13, 2010
This
buzzdeadwax - May 13, 2010
This is also true.
Japanese leagues tend to play baseball with a different philosophy for both hitting and pitching.
EricGreggWasPaidOff - May 14, 2010
That certainly is a lot of words…
MTSU11 - May 13, 2010
I thought about making it 2 posts
but then decided against it. Sorry if I hurt your brain.
Jacob Peterson - May 13, 2010
My head hurts
DolphinNation - May 13, 2010
Right now, I'm sure the Nationals would have him as their 1-5 starters.
Bronn - May 13, 2010
It's not like they're ahead of us in the divison.
And have a pitcher with like a 1.2 ERA named Livan Hernandez or anything.
RichmondBraves - May 14, 2010
Rec’d for OGT
justincredubil02 - May 14, 2010
lolwut
Pretty sure my statistics beat his statistics. Of which there were none.
RichmondBraves - May 16, 2010
WOW !!
What a bunch of HOOEY !!!. The man is awful !!!
ggotch - May 13, 2010
SOMEBODY HAZE THIS FUCKIN’ GUY!!
-C
cthabeerman - May 13, 2010
Great stuff as always
My question is where do you get all the raw data to manipulate? Is it downloadable from somewhere?
KoKo the Monkey (T-Bone) - May 13, 2010
For this post,
FanGraphs. You can download the data to a few different formats or just copy and paste it.
I also use Baseball-reference.com a lot.
Jacob Peterson - May 13, 2010
I hope someone is paying you to give us all of this good stuff. If not, AJC or someone should be.
slc333 - May 13, 2010
yeah right
the AJC isn’t really interested in writers who use stats to back up their opinions.
Scott Coleman - May 13, 2010
I think the AJC
has this thing called a “word limit”. That’d mess me up.
Jacob Peterson - May 13, 2010
I Going To Take The High Road Here
And would like to ask for a fresh start with many TC’ers here.
I refuse to post on this story. I believe tomorrow start against the D’Backs is Kenshin biggest start of the year.
We need to keep the momentum going here and try to get on a little role/back to .500/and back to where all fans believe we should be – and that’s contending for the division title.
Things were dark and bleak the last couple of weeks. Most of my posts were based on disappointment/disgust and getting caught up in the moment.
My apologies…and hopefully the worst is over for us Braves fans.
Let’s go Los Bravos!!!!
Nova Scotia Steve - May 13, 2010
Apology accepted. Don’t let it happen again…
justincredubil02 - May 13, 2010
Thanks You Sir
May I have another…
Nova Scotia Steve - May 14, 2010
I'm Going To Take The High Road Here (Better Grammar)
And would like to ask for a fresh start with many TC’ers here.
I refuse to post on this story. I believe tomorrow’s start against the D’Backs is Kenshin’s biggest start of the year.
We need to keep the momentum going here and try to get on a little role/back to .500/and back to where all fans believe we should be – and that’s contending for the division title.
Things were dark and bleak the last couple of weeks. Most of my posts were based on disappointment/disgust and getting caught up in the moment.
My apologies…and hopefully the worst is over for us Braves fans.
Let’s go Los Bravos!!!!
Nova Scotia Steve - May 13, 2010
Exactly. After these recent games, the momentum has shifted for the better. With our offensive spark, and Kawakami’s decent pitching, we’re bound to take the first game if all continues as it did in our last game.
Joseph_C - May 13, 2010
To Complete the Argument
You need to list the salaries of the #4’s and #5’s for the other teams and see how KK compares.
I have no idea how it will pan out, but the point to make is that even if KK pitches like a “#4”, if we aren’t getting good value in terms of $ paid / WAR, then its still not a good idea to have him. If for example KK only provides +1 WAR over a pitcher with lesser stats that makes league minimum, then that 7.3M – 0.4M difference in salary could be used to acquire other players that improve the team’s performance.
fphjr01 - May 13, 2010
That's a whole separate discussion
as I point out in the Conclusion.
Your point is completely valid, but it doesn’t affect anything I said about KK being a MLB-caliber starter.
Jacob Peterson - May 13, 2010
The discussion is whether we could readily get better production from his starts
From a free agent for less or similar money, and that’s always debatable.
KK’s had a little bit of bad luck this year, and to some extent, he’s been staying in games longer than he needs. Seems like he’ll get hammered pretty hard during the 6th inning. I’m not sure of the reasons-it could be that his grip is weakening, or his arm angle suffers-but it’s clear he’s not getting the ball down as well once he’s gone to a certain point.
For all this, I’m really happy with what he provides for the value. Would we be better off with Medlen pitching his games? Perhaps.
Bronn - May 13, 2010
Good stuff.
It will be interesting to see if KK does what he did last year and really starts picking it up
drumzalicious - May 13, 2010
I don’t think the salary makes a difference in this case. Don’t forget the state of our starting rotation at the time that KK was signed. Honestly, at that time who among us wasn’t paranoid about the Braves rotation dealing with the same injuries and issues as the previous season? All I’m saying is I was happy over the KK and D. Lowe signings and the Vaz trade. I did think we over paid for D. Lowe and KK but really, the market and our issues kind of drove the dollars on us. Great post Pac! Every time you put one of these up here I feel like I should be sitting at a Desk with some paper and pencil taking notes! REC’D
jdmarine - May 13, 2010
Please keep your spreadsheets for this one and redo the calculations at the end of the season!
SwedishBrave - May 13, 2010
I'll try to
Remind me.
Jacob Peterson - May 13, 2010
I’ll try to remind you, as well.
EricGreggWasPaidOff - May 14, 2010
Word can’t describe how I feel about pacgnosis, but not in a creepy way. Your beautiful poetry of stats guide you to the ultimate truth, which is then shared with the ravenous, albeit fickle, fan base of the Atlanta Braves.
I really don’t know if you just have a lot of time on your hands or are just good at the maths.
Just another reason why this sports blog is the envy of all others.
Congratulations and good day to you, sir!
Sparhawk - May 13, 2010
I am pretty good at math
but this is mostly just manipulation of Excel spreadsheets. I had some time the past few days, but these posts generally don’t take as long as you might think.
Jacob Peterson - May 13, 2010
Thanks
Great post. All the research that I wish I had time to do. Well done, well said, and all the KK haters, STFU.
Andy Braves Fan - May 13, 2010
Nice work. You do a great job explaining the statistics. Great job.
Gage23 - May 13, 2010
off topic:
the royals just fired Trey Hillman and replaced him with Ned Yost, I believe that Yost was a candidate to coach the braves next season
Kobe:The Legend - May 13, 2010
eh
give me Fredi Gonzalez.
Scott Coleman - May 13, 2010
I sincerely want Terry Pendleton to be next manager.
ducks
Weldon - May 13, 2010
THIS
kreese555 - May 13, 2010
agree
Kobe:The Legend - May 13, 2010
That'd be my first pick, too.
Ned Yost I’m not a fan of.
Jacob Peterson - May 13, 2010
I like Ned. He would be on my list, but not at the top.
justincredubil02 - May 13, 2010
Ned to the Brewers
kreese555 - May 13, 2010
Is he available, though?
I’m pretty sure the Marlins extended him recently.
Bronn - May 13, 2010
Haha no
The GM basically said make the playoffs or you’re gone.
Scott Coleman - May 13, 2010 via mobile
He got the ever-popular "Vote of Confidence" a couple of days ago.
As likely as not, he’s already called U-Haul looking into rates and schedules.
Sam Jethroe - May 14, 2010
What program do you use to make your graphs?
eaheckman10 - May 13, 2010
Excel
I just use the basic chart/graph editor and then tweak it until I like how it looks. Admittedly, it sometimes takes a lot of finagling to get that to happen. I’ve got a lot of Excel experience so I know a lot of tricks.
I’m thinking about switching over to Photoshop for some graphs. We’ll see if that helps.
Jacob Peterson - May 13, 2010
GET OUT OF HERE WITH YOUR STATS!!!
Scott Coleman - May 13, 2010
Yeah
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that’s even remotely true!
GoBravesNY - May 13, 2010
I LOVE THIS SO MUCH.
tcstew - May 13, 2010
Pac, you have done it again, old chap.
So, basically, you have provided concrete evidence to support my theory that KK is an average #3, good #4 and outstanding #5.
I <3 you in a completely hetero sort of way. You are slowly becoming my new KJ.
justincredubil02 - May 13, 2010
I just hope
that I don’t get non-tendered!
Jacob Peterson - May 13, 2010
It will be ok for you if you do. Like KJ getting away from TP and then becoming one of the best hitting second baseman in the NL, getting away from royhobbs would probably elevate you to true journalism, like where you actually get paid.
Rhyno18 - May 14, 2010
Journalists get paid?...
since when?
Mr. Sanchez - May 14, 2010
Speaking from experience
Journalists do not get paid.
I worked at Wal-Mart for seven years during high school and college to help with finances. Upon taking my job as a sports writer after graduating from college, I got hired and promptly received a pay-cut to work for a daily newspaper.
-C
cthabeerman - May 14, 2010
Psssssh… I took an AJB buyout to NOT work for a newspaper.
FineHamAbounds - May 14, 2010
I'm not really interested
in being a “journalist”. I’m more comfortable being an “analyst/commentator” kind of thing. “Journalism” has, you know, “standards”. I don’t like that.
(OK, enough “quotes” for one “post”.)
Jacob Peterson - May 14, 2010
Color me not impressed
bpk228480 - May 13, 2010
So is that
kind of a sad blue color? I need to know which crayon to use.
Jacob Peterson - May 13, 2010
dark blue, dark blue
but I’m kidding of course
bpk228480 - May 13, 2010
Unimpressed
!Vive la Francoeur! - May 13, 2010
what else do we expect from an avatar avatar?
apoxonbothyourhouses - May 14, 2010
I just watched that tonight. It was la-a-a-a-ame. Pretty looking, but lame.
FineHamAbounds - May 14, 2010
The people at Disney that wrote Pocahontas should really sue. All Cameron did was change the color of the natives and add bigger guns.
Rhyno18 - May 14, 2010
And Dances with Wolves, and Fern Gully…what a crap movie Avatar was.
mvandonsel - May 14, 2010
It really was freaking terrible. I was dragged to it by my cousins and we drank a fifth of tequila during it. It was so awful.
kreese555 - May 14, 2010
I liked the movie
but the storyline was very borrowed (Dances with Wolves, the Last Samurai)…
Andy Braves Fan - May 14, 2010
KK haters
you have just been owned.
bbxxj - May 13, 2010 via mobile
Severely.
justincredubil02 - May 13, 2010
Well done...
Vance in Sacramento - May 13, 2010
Great job Pac! How do you find time to do all of this? You, my friend, are a champ!
You know what I love? People saying, “this is great, but you should have done this (enter statistical number crunching) as well because it would have made this post sooooo much better…”
It’s like saying, “Hey, great job Shakespeare! Hamlet was an excellent book and story, but you should have included robots, lasers, and a donkey named Sally because it could have been better.”
mvandonsel - May 13, 2010
In fairness
a robot donkey with lasers would be pretty damn awesome.
Seriously, I always appreciate constructive comments and criticism. People have good ideas, especially the smart folks around here.
Jacob Peterson - May 13, 2010
I understand where you are coming from. I guess I just see it as a backhanded compliment. This is good but….
The Robot Donkey with Lasers has to be named Sally…oh…or Lankey.
mvandonsel - May 13, 2010
A robot donkey with lasers would be…
wait for it…
REDONKULOUS!!!!
/cue groans, and honestly, if I were banned for that it would be deserved
Rhyno18 - May 14, 2010
Oooh, ooh! I have one:
A robot donkey dinosaur with lasers would be:
Redonkulasaurus!
justincredubil02 - May 14, 2010
lol
mvandonsel - May 14, 2010
haha I first read this as
“Seriously, I always appreciate constructive comments and racism.” I was like….hmmmm
kreese555 - May 13, 2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae06LFa3i38
Tim Goad - May 13, 2010
DAMN!! You beat me to it!!! Anybody have some lasers??
mvandonsel - May 13, 2010
Sharks with frickin lasers on their heads!
bbxxj - May 13, 2010 via mobile
Shakespeare didn’t write his own “work”!
bpk228480 - May 13, 2010
Were they, in fact, written by another Briton of the same name?
Bronn - May 13, 2010
LOL I’m a conspiracy theorist and Christopher Marlowe wrote all of them after faking his own death!
bpk228480 - May 13, 2010
Murder of Crows = awesome movie.
EricGreggWasPaidOff - May 14, 2010
Actually it was a young chap named Samuel Clemens.
UMDBHIK - May 13, 2010
Must have been very young, then.
Bronn - May 13, 2010
I heard it was Sir Francis Bacon (I think)
Andy Braves Fan - May 14, 2010
+2 Histories for you.
justincredubil02 - May 14, 2010
pacgnosis....
is my pen name…
KIDDING
mvandonsel - May 13, 2010
wait,
if pacgnosis is your pen name, than mvandonsel doesn’t actualy exist. Because the pen name is the only one that matters, and a person without a name is a nobody. So, was Homer actually right when he said:
“>Lisa, vampires are make-believe, like elves, gremlins, and Eskimos”?
GoBravesNY - May 13, 2010
Your pen name will be royhobbs
When the magic city-hopping adventures of mvandonsel’s 2009 season comes to fruition in the most epic fanpost in the history of the internet.
royhobbs - May 14, 2010
I don't get it
Wouldn’t anything be better with donkeys who have laser beams attached to their heads fighting evil robots from Jupiter? Why do you hat America so much?
buzzdeadwax - May 13, 2010
There was an interesting thing on...I think it was THBT
Basically saying that there’s no such thing as a #5 starter. That is, you usually have enough mobility in your rotation that the 5th guy is barely used more than your fill-in, or 6th guy. So to look at 5th guy numbers, you’re essentially just hoping for someone to be replacement level over X amount of innings.
Not that I’m sure it’s relevant.
Bronn - May 13, 2010
Well that may be the case
I think there are several different types of guys who get lumped into that role:
1) Aging veterans who were once good but are just hanging on now
2) AAAA-type guys who bounce from team to team
3) Young guys who may (or may not) have the promise to develop into something more
It’d probably be best to only compare each type to itself, but that’s hard to do.
Still, I think any contender has to hope to get better than replacement level from its 5th starter. Actually, you could argue that that is part of what makes a team a contender. (The Phillies excluded)
Jacob Peterson - May 13, 2010
I don't really buy that at all
If you look at an MLB year long schedule, there are enough long stretches around off days that you still need at least 15-20 starts from your #5. Another way you can look at it — rarely does anyone start more than 35 games in a year. 35 * 4 = 140. That means you need 22 “spot starts” from somebody else. That’s a little more than “fill-in” in my book.
fphjr01 - May 13, 2010
I think you misread the article
The point they were teying to make was that most of the time, one or more of your five starters is going to miss a bunch of time forcing your team to use another starter for an extended stretch. This makes the idea that “he’s just a fifth starter” kind of pointless.
Stephen Schmidt - May 13, 2010
It's been a while
So what I’m taking from memory may not at all represent what the article is about.
Bronn - May 13, 2010
Who would’ve ever thought that this much controversy surrounded Kawakami……
Joseph_C - May 13, 2010
Pac, you beat me to the punch by about a week. I have half of the data I was going to use sitting in a spreadsheet, but I’m moving this week and that’s taken priority over number-crunching.
But, for what it’s worth, I was looking at a few other metrics and with about half of the NL sitting in my dataset at the moment, KK has pitched better than most teams’ 4th and 5th starters, no doubt about it.
Ivan the Great - May 13, 2010
Cool.
Yeah, I would’ve included more stats too but this was long enough as it is. Good to see that you confirmed these results with other metrics too.
Jacob Peterson - May 13, 2010
As the catalyst for this post, I encourage you to go ahead and finish up your analysis. Maybe it will highlight a few new and interesting aspects.
EricGreggWasPaidOff - May 14, 2010
+Post it when you’re finished (although this may have gone without saying it)
EricGreggWasPaidOff - May 14, 2010
Pac
New story idea: Look at each story ever written on TC that received a rec. Total up the recs and divide so that we have a rec per person stat. I want to know who is the most valuable writer (MVW) of TC.
I think you’re probably it…
Doghnut - May 13, 2010
I don’t need a stat personally. I’ve been to the show and I’ve seen all the ponies. I can “feel” who is best.
It’s Sgt. Slaughter, hands down.
UMDBHIK - May 13, 2010
Kenshin
stats have their place, obviously, but sometimes miss the qualitative
yet important. having watched KK a number of times It is fair to conclude
he has decent ‘stuff’. yet every third or fourth pitch is fat and either gets
laced or he gets luck and the ball manages to reach a fielder. sometimes
you can hear the smack on the fielder’s glove. with his experience by
now he would throw fewer ‘mistakes’. this is old school but holds up.
medlen and in short order even minor will likely provide the steadier
hand and not at the same time pose a major risk in middle relief.
sealift67 - May 13, 2010
Qualitatively
I’d say that KK has good days and bad days. On his good days, he’s fairly dominant (his curve in particular is nasty), but on bad days he leaves some pitches up in the zone and gets whacked pretty hard.
Then again, that scouting report could apply to half the pitchers in the league. Which is why we have stats.
Jacob Peterson - May 13, 2010
That'd be my vote, too
Jacob Peterson - May 13, 2010
I was actually thinking of doing a running tally of the Braves’ record depending on which of us is assigned to that series: gondeee, mvhsbball, or me. Then we could crown one of us the “Most Valuable Previewer”.
I’m pretty sure I’d be dead last in that metric right about now.
Jacob Peterson - May 13, 2010
I’d imagine I’m right around .500. I had the Brewers sweep and Padres 2/3 series, but had the Cardinals series (gross.), and I think a Nats series too.
Scott Coleman - May 13, 2010 via mobile
Yep, I’m 6-7 on the season if I’m counting right.
Scott Coleman - May 13, 2010 via mobile
I had 19 recs last week,
But yeah…I’m probably still in last place.
Scott Coleman - May 13, 2010 via mobile
I had 7 recs once….
GoBravesNY - May 13, 2010
But you run and score NAHWAL…mad points for that
Scott Coleman - May 13, 2010 via mobile
no, its based soley on recs.. I get brownie points for NAHWAL (which I should probably go catch up on)
GoBravesNY - May 13, 2010
Fair enough. And get working on those now!
Scott Coleman - May 13, 2010 via mobile
I think the only one that I have ever done that received recs was my KK post last year.
justincredubil02 - May 13, 2010
Sonuvabitch
We’re in last place again. Our season is over.
Scott Coleman - May 13, 2010 via mobile
Damn those pesky Marlins….
EricGreggWasPaidOff - May 14, 2010
Regrettably
Starting a new assignment kept me from enjoying this when it was freshly picked off the tree. Nothing I’d want to say hasn’t already been said, from vs. finances to all the otherwise superb remarks. Excellent work, as always.
royhobbs - May 14, 2010
Trade this guy already (KK)
It was a terrible deal to bring “KK” here from Japan in the first place; we way overpaided for him and D. Lowe two offseasons ago. If we are out of it in Aug look for us to unload B. Wagner, Saito, KK, and D. Lowe to acquire picks, and hopefully a real good 3B prospect which we really lack in our system.
3B prospect or Vet that is the question for next season b/c with no Bobby Cox returning to the bench in 2011 that more than likely means that Chipper Jones is done after this year as well. Chipper has struggled again this year and really needs to hang up with the cleats; he said that if he has another season like the one before he is going to call it a career .
So with the above said my trade ideas for KK;
Trade #1
KK & Jo Jo Reyes
FOR
Casey McGehee 3B Brewers
~ really liked the way that McGehee hits and fields the 3B position but I seriously doubt the Brew Crew would let him go for just KK however their starting pitching is so awful that they more than likely would take anyone over whom they have now.
Trade #2
“KK” & Jo-Jo
For
Alex Gordon (3B) Royals
Been a bit injury prone and the Royals have reassigned him to the minor a couple of times however I have always like Gordon as a player and I would love to have him here in ATL. Seems as if Royals want to protect him but are no longer that much in love with their former star and he as well as the Royals would benefit from a fresh start. Great fit for both teams royals get two Braves players (their favorite thing to collect) lol and the Braves get a great a true backup 3B for this season and the next season he can take over for Chipper full time.
Either way KK and Jo-Jo need to be out of here and I will throw in S. Marek in the trade as well to sweeten the pot to get it done.
Medlen can easily put up the numbers that KK has; 0-6 plz the guy is terrible.
Go Braves.
Holty_Panthers_Fan - May 14, 2010
Rec’d
Scott Coleman - May 14, 2010 via mobile
haha
green it up
kreese555 - May 14, 2010
I continue to be befuddled by comments like these that complain about the poor performance of players (Melky, McLouth, Jo-Jo, KK, and others) and then expect them to be traded for a decent player. It’s as if you think that other teams don’t have a scouting department. Believe it or not, other teams are not clamoring to have our underperforming players on their team. Getting rid of Francoeur last year was a gift, we could have been stuck with him all year. Franky Wren ain’t Rumpelstiltskin, he can’t spin gold out of straw, and Omar Minaya isn’t gonna take all of our trash off our hands.
BraveSaluki - May 14, 2010
I really liked the KK and JoJo (with Steven Marek thrown in to “sweet the pot”) for Casey McGehee trade.
Seriously? There’s no way in hell the Braves would make that trade!
Scott Coleman - May 14, 2010
How do you know?
Have we offered Melky, McLouth, Jo-Jo and D. Lowe to Minaya? He might take them, along with all their salaries owed in exchange for large amounts of cash and every prospect in their farm, plus two players of our choice from the ML team. It just depends on if Frank Wren catches him right after he’s finished smoking his crack.
EricGreggWasPaidOff - May 14, 2010
Now, I'm going to laugh uncontrollably the next few times I see Minaya on TV.
Actually, if we could just catch Manuel manning the phone, I think we could pull that deal off.
Sam Jethroe - May 14, 2010
i assume he was being sarcastic?
I hope…i mean, you cant even trade for picks…
Doghnut - May 14, 2010
that's what I thought at first
until I saw who posted it
Skyagusta - May 14, 2010
This
Holty is a really sucky poster. He/she/it might not be a bad guy/girl/4 assed mongoose, but that doesn’t make the quality of the posts any better.
buzzdeadwax - May 14, 2010
at least he/she/it is consistent.
Skyagusta - May 14, 2010
Joe Morgan <3’s Holty.
buzzdeadwax - May 14, 2010
OGT is a GO! GO! GO!
justincredubil02 - May 14, 2010
OGT Ohio Graduation Test
OGT Operation Game Thief (various US state anti-poaching programs)
OGT Oral Glucose Tolerance (Test)
OGT Office of Greenways & Trails (Florida)
OGT Outgoing Trunk
OGT orogastric tube
OGT Obviously Gay Trait
OGT Order of Good Templars
OGT Original Gangsta Tool
OGT Original Gansta Tool
OGt Old Gutnish (linguistics)
OGT Outlet Gas Temperature
OGT Oversampled Gabor Transform
i need some clarification on the OGT.
ATL_BUC - May 14, 2010
Operation Green Troll
(basically, if there’s a dumbass post made anymore, it’ll be OGT’d)
Scott Coleman - May 14, 2010
how is everything you post not greened?
Mr. Sanchez - May 14, 2010
hey, if you wanna fight
I got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary right here waitin’ for ya.
Scott Coleman - May 14, 2010
This burrito is delicious, but it’s soooo filling!
UMDBHIK - May 14, 2010
Thanks,
Was gonna go with Obvious Gay Trait if no one helped me out. Works out either way i guess.
ATL_BUC - May 14, 2010
Overpaided
This is my new favorite word, and I will be using it constantly from now on. That is why your post is rec’d. Well plaided, sir.
buzzdeadwax - May 14, 2010
+1
Smoltz's Beard - May 14, 2010
Thanks pacgnosis!
Your posts are still the best on TC (no offense to anyone else), and I now feel completely vindicated in my defense of KK and claims of his excellence as a #5 starter.
EricGreggWasPaidOff - May 14, 2010
Might be an all-nighter on this take-home final. At least half of it is about baseball.
BraveSaluki - May 14, 2010
Excellent post.
Can’t say I’m surprised by the results. Most teams 5th starters are barely major leaguers or long relievers, and KK is, at worst, a successful professional pitcher (even if it was in Japan).
FineHamAbounds - May 14, 2010
There’s a reason most teams do that.
Someone needs to point this out – KK was not signed to be serviceable 5th starter. You don’t give those guys $24 million contacts. Hell, even the Yankees don’t do that .
The question isn’t whether rolling KK out there every fifth day is better than Charlie Morton, etc. It’s whether it’s better than Morton every fifth day plus Adam Dunn everyday. Really tough to make that argument, especially when you’re coming off a third place finish and currently reside in the cellar.
DCP916 - May 15, 2010
Someone......
needs to get a job, a wife, and/or have some kids!
BobW - May 14, 2010
I have a job,
and I am going to have a wife very soon.
The kids, well, that might take some time.
Jacob Peterson - May 14, 2010
Fantastic analysis!
Thanks for all your work on this
- fascinating stuff! :)skymuse - May 14, 2010
Reply fail
It IS fascinating stuff!
skymuse - May 14, 2010
Nice Post...
Math was never and will never be my strong point. I commend you for doing all of that math and working with Excel and what not. I like the final outcome of the stats. Stats tend to make everything seem legit to me.
Good job.
XBEARDX - May 14, 2010
This is what happens when I don’t get a chance to check the site for one day. I spend my entire morning sifting through nonsensical posts and it takes me forever to finally get around to something good like this.
Excellent work.
Smoltz's Beard - May 14, 2010
9 times out of 10, you can just look at the author.
There are so many unread posts on the right side of my screen right now…
justincredubil02 - May 14, 2010
Slacker!
Jacob Peterson - May 14, 2010
Obviously, but I get a little OCD with unread threads. Who knows how many troll-ish posts I’m missing out on!
Smoltz's Beard - May 14, 2010
Quite a few, for an off day…
-C
cthabeerman - May 14, 2010
Same here...
but I also have no problem z’ing through a bunch of crap that looks insignificant, or with posts by mostly unknowns.
Mr. Sanchez - May 14, 2010
Yup, that’s basically what I’m doing.
Smoltz's Beard - May 14, 2010
Same here. I see “102 New” and I think “Dang…I bet there is some internet goodness in there…”
Sometimes I cave in to the temptation, and other times, I let it pass. Currently, I am in a “I don’t feel like reading retarded posts” mood, so I am letting the temptation pass.
justincredubil02 - May 14, 2010
I’m like Ron Burgundy. I will literally read whatever is put in front of me. I’m a glutton for punishment that way.
UMDBHIK - May 14, 2010
I’m Ron Burgandy?
justincredubil02 - May 14, 2010
I love this write up
I was literally discussing this in one of our rosterbation threads. Cavebird made a good point that trading KK now would be selling low but I do think that teams will be interested in his services before the deadline. KK would be successful with any team that hits the ball a.k.a the brewers, angels, diamondbacks, dodgers.
He is overpaid on our squad but if he’s a possible 3rd starter for another team his contract is not that bad to swallow. Maybe it’s not an ideal contract but the trade deadline seems to only be offering bad contract guys and when KK is compared to those he will look better than most options. Moving KK would give us some spending money come next season if Lowe is not moved again.
Charmin519 - May 14, 2010
I’d prefer to try and trade Lowe before KK – simply because KK makes that much less than Derek. I think both are probably equal as to the on-field value that they would provide if they stay here.
justincredubil02 - May 14, 2010
I'd love to see the entire list of 177 in rank order...
… it’s probably worthy of a separate post, though; I know it would generate a lot of discussion! Super job.
carpengui - May 14, 2010
agreed
Smoltz's Beard - May 14, 2010
+1
EricGreggWasPaidOff - May 14, 2010
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