From the baseball Winter Meetings, ESPN's Jerry Crasnick has the scoop:
Lefty reliever George Sherrill is closing in on a deal with the Atlanta Braves, according to a baseball source
Sherrill would satisfy the Braves desire to add another veteran left-handed reliever to their bullpen. Sherrill is a former closer and a former All-Star when he was with the Orioles. He's spent the last year and a half with the Dodgers.
He is mainly a fastball pitcher, who mixes in a slider from time to time. He used to throw a change-up and curve ball, but over the years he has abandoned those pitches. His fastball was hit hard last year, but that could have been a product of luck, as he posted an unusually high BABIP-against of .352. That's more than 50 points above his career average, so he'll likely come back down to earth eventually.
The Braves have a good track record of properly using veteran left-handed relievers, so Sherrill could flourish in Atlanta. The team has also had a decent track record of getting pitchers to rediscover their once-discarded pitches. Sherrill had a pretty effective curve and change-up before he scrapped them in 2009. The Braves will need to use him primarily as a LOOGY, and it should be more successful if they do.
While it was for the Orioles, I like his closing experience (though I don't think he's a closer option in the least for Atlanta). He's also a former Mariner, and the Braves have had excellent luck with former Mariner relievers (O'Flaherty, Soriano). A good veteran to add to the bullpen mix. Well done.
[UPDATE 4:30pm]
The Braves have officially signed Sherrill (pending a physical) to a one-year $1.2 million contract, with $200,000 in performance incentives. Good move by the Braves. They don't overpay for a veteran LOOGY with a lot of upside.
0 recs | 303 comments
So, George Sherrill...
He was awful in 2010, but that’s his first bad season in six or seven years. While he won’t be closing, he does have the experience of being a closer, and that could be beneficial to a guy like Jonny Venters.
As long as he’s cheap, I would be OK with it. His ERA was 6.69 last year in LA, but his FIP and xFIP are much lower (5.20 and 5.51). While those still aren’t good numbers, it wouldn’t be an awful signing. If it’s for less than a million bucks or so, it’s probably worth it.
Scott Coleman - December 8, 2010
Another veteran mentor type with the potential to dominate. I like it, especially as our third lefty. Can’t imagine the price will be too high.
king of games - December 8, 2010
lol
you love that “potential to dominate,” don’t you?
lingsched - December 8, 2010
I’m a high risk/high reward kinda guy, I can’t help it.
king of games - December 8, 2010
He also owns lefties...
.191BAA and .521OPS against him in 2010. That works.
Scott Coleman - December 8, 2010 via mobile
I like this as long as we use him appropriately (to face lefties mostly and never to face righties in high-leverage situations)
Splits in 2010:
v. L: 3.32 FIP, 1.18 WHIP
v. R: 7.58 FIP, 2.88 WHIP
Career:
v. L: 2.40 FIP, 0.87 WHIP
v. R: 5.08 FIP, 1.76 WHIP
epatl - December 8, 2010
I can't imagine someone with his past would be that cheap...
but even if he is, justin will be pissed. This sucker is still under 100 comments, but when he gets here, expect it to top 500.
Mr. Sanchez - December 8, 2010
I was about to ask:
“Well, we had 500 comments for Scott Linebrink. How many comments will George Sherrill bring?”
Scott Coleman - December 8, 2010
Depends on when justin arrives...
“another reliever, but we’ve got [insert list of names]. This is a huge waste of money when Wren should be signing a CF or SS. Rabble, rabble, rabble.”
Mr. Sanchez - December 8, 2010
I would really love a Cain for Beachy swap. It benefits both teams, and it gives us the outfielder we need. Just let Hicks or Hernandez be our backup shortstop.
Scott Coleman - December 8, 2010
I want to trade...
Gonzo for a FatHead of Yunel Escobar.
Jman781 - December 8, 2010
Sadly enough, the FatHead would probably post a higher OBP than Gonzo.
Scott Coleman - December 8, 2010
Word on the street is, you’re an insufferbale schmuck. True?
TheLetter2 - December 8, 2010
Yes sir. My boy FuquaManuel and I kick it all the time at his place, but he’s been stingy as of late.
Scott Coleman - December 8, 2010
Well! The nerve of some people, huh?
TheLetter2 - December 8, 2010
Yeah, our friendship is in a rough patch right now.
Scott Coleman - December 8, 2010 via mobile
And take instruction better than the real Yunel.
Sam Jethroe - December 8, 2010
They’re sold out, Justin already bought them all
king of games - December 8, 2010
I'd agree...
if only because Beachy’s fast ascent makes me think he won’t pan out. But then, I don’t think the Brewers would take that offer. Melvin really seems to overvalue his big leaguers, and may have just been working a bait and switch for Gomez.
Mr. Sanchez - December 8, 2010
Love it
As a closet O’s fan, I’ve always been a fan of this guy… he’ll turn it around
HansonManCrush - December 8, 2010
If nothing else...
…we are definitely buying low on Sherrill. Assuming it isn’t much money, it can’t hurt. If he sucks we can cut him loose since we already have two other lefties.
cavebird - December 8, 2010
Agreed.
As long as Fredi doesn’t use him as anything other than a LOOGY, he should be just fine for us.
Scott Coleman - December 8, 2010
At $1.2 - $1.4 million...
…I am happy with this. Not much risked and we could get an effective loogy. Probably smart to have some lefty insurance anyway. Venters was overused last year and EOF is recovering from mono, which sometimes takes over a year to fully disappear.
cavebird - December 8, 2010
Agreed for the reasons you say...
now 3 more remain on Wren’s to do list…
Move KK to the highest bidder
Sign a RH OF bat (Johnny Damon?)
Utility IF (Pujols?)
Mr. Sanchez - December 8, 2010
Damon is LH
forgotten_glory - December 8, 2010
Wren is always thinking outside the box, he’ll sign Damon and get him to bat right handed.
Lennox - December 8, 2010
Then why is he smiling?
Also, whoosh. It’s an ongoing joke of mine.
Mr. Sanchez - December 8, 2010
Rec for one of the greatest movie references on this board to date.
king of games - December 8, 2010
I guess you're new...
because we played this joke 1000 times in the spring with heyward.
Mr. Sanchez - December 8, 2010
I think I joined late in Spring.
king of games - December 8, 2010
i think we used an entire thread on princess bride references
Swo12bv - December 8, 2010
it was a good thread.
Mr. Sanchez - December 8, 2010
I wish I could have seen it.
king of games - December 8, 2010
It began off the simple story of...
After a full season of tearing up the NL, Jason Heyward walks to the plate this spring, smiling.
Opposing C-“It’s good to be back, huh?”
Heyward-“Indeed it is.”
Opposing C- “Looking forward to this season? You were pretty good last year.”
Heyward-[steps out of the box, laughing]
Opposing C-“What’s so funny?”
Heyward-“Because I know something you don’t.”
Opposing C-“And that is?”
Heyward-“I’m not left handed” [steps back into the box, the right side now, cranks out 736 ft HR, rounds bases].
Opposing C-“You are amazing.”
Jason Heyward-’I ought to be, after 21 years."
Mr. Sanchez - December 9, 2010
Andruw Jones!!!!!
roberty - December 8, 2010
Tell him to shave that beard
Albert K - December 8, 2010
Mattingly! I told you to shave those sideburns!
get swoll yunel - December 9, 2010
Dislike.
Smoltz's Beard - December 9, 2010
Go away loser...
you and your random drive-by postings.
Mr. Sanchez - December 9, 2010
Yikes!!!
I’m not a fan of this deal…the picture above is the reason. He’s battled arm issues in the past, and looking at his mechanics, my question is “When is his next arm injury scheduled?” He has terrible arm slot and arm action, pushes the ball to the plate, and old “pushers” have a flat ball that is hittable…to the tune of a 6+ ERA!!!
Braves12 - December 8, 2010 via mobile
Arm surgery...
Not arm injury
Braves12 - December 8, 2010 via mobile
But if he's cheap
Then a situational lefty would be ok.
Braves12 - December 8, 2010 via mobile
I know I’ve given you a hard time before about your imaginery sources….
but this is a fantastic point…well played Braves12…that arm action does look horrible, in the photo at least.
best point I’ve read here so far
Swo12bv - December 8, 2010
I guess Wren didn't have that photo available when evaluating him.
Tarkus - December 8, 2010
cute….but if you watch his mechanics the guy is right…they aren’t great and he does kinda push the ball towards the plate…there could be something to that…
That said, poor mechanics don’t necessarily mean and injury is imminent or that a pitcher wont be effective…it is entirely possible that Sherrill’s arm can handle poor mechanics and he’ll be just fine and in a more limited role will be exceedingly effective….
That doesnt change the fact his mechanics look poor.
I’m not doubting Wren, its 1.2M and its a relatively low risk reward, considering Sherrill’s place on the team…so if he bombs out we aren’t in trouble or anything and the salary isn’t an albatross that kills us.
Swo12bv - December 8, 2010
The picture obscures his arm action to a degree. He throws across his body and if you think about the angle of the picture, it would make it appear that his arm is closer to his body. His arm action really isn’t that bad, his load is a little funky in that he brings his arm closer to 1st base to hide the ball as opposed to more towards 2nd base.
Here’s a slow motion video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5SW82-3BVE&feature=related
jeg - December 8, 2010
It’s not really a “push” arm action. He brings his elbow to slightly more than 90 degrees of his shoulder. It’s the load thats bad and throwing across his body that puts what looks like greater than average strain on his shoulder.
jeg - December 8, 2010
Yeah, I was wondering why folks seem to be excited about this guy. I thought Sherrill was awful.
Put another way: Giants fans rooted for Torre to put Sherrill in because when he did, it was like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny had a head-on collision and dozens of glorious, glorious gift runs were showered o’er the land.
We liked Sherrill. And Broxton, too, for a while. Same reason.
TheLetter2 - December 8, 2010
The situations are different though. In LA, Sherrill was the #3 or #4 option, and besides Kuo, was the only lefty who could do anything. In Atlanta, he’ll be the 5th or 6th option, and he’ll only come in against lefties.
I like the move, assuming he’s cheap.
Scott Coleman - December 8, 2010
I trust your judgment because you seem to know things. I approve.
TheLetter2 - December 8, 2010
Statements like that...
let me know I shouldn’t trust yours [judgement].
Mr. Sanchez - December 8, 2010
If you wanna fight I got Jack Johnson and Tom O’Leary right here, waitin’ for ya.
Scott Coleman - December 8, 2010
But he said it with such conviction!
TheLetter2 - December 8, 2010
Well being on the west coast I do see quite a few Dodgers games, and Torre was a joke with his bullpen. I think we’ll be fine.
Scott Coleman - December 8, 2010
As my daddy used to say...
“if you can’t sing well, sing loudly.”
Mr. Sanchez - December 8, 2010
Sherrill was also the setup man for the Dodgers. For us he’s just a low-leverage situation lefty specialist. Venters and EOF are still the go-to lefties,
king of games - December 8, 2010
Right
assuming he’s at least reliable against a lefty or two, it also keeps us from having to burn EOF or Venters for just a batter or two.
Scott Coleman - December 8, 2010
From the Department of Redundancy Department...
we likey, depending on the cost that is.
Mr. Sanchez - December 8, 2010
I would rather Santa and the Easter Bunny run into each other, but one of the Bunny’s eggs is a bomb, so it explodes, and candy flies everywhere.
Oh yes.
MBL1 - December 8, 2010
Rabbit stew
yummy
bighop - December 8, 2010
Have we gotten rid of K.K. yet
BravesMania - December 8, 2010
I like the move...
Can’t have too many pen arms, and this guy was a solid pitcher earlier in his career. Nice move.
Jman781 - December 8, 2010
I like the move even more now...
Didn’t over pay. Good job.
Jman781 - December 8, 2010
I think you can have too many bp arms – and we now do.
justincredubil02 - December 9, 2010
You say that now
But lord knows it only takes one key cog to go down and we will be better able to compensate for the loss. Always better to be safe than sorry. Think about having a guy like Venters to fill in for Saito when he got hurt, and then have Dunn take over for Venters’ original spot. Most teams can’t do that
BravesDawg16 - December 9, 2010
We can do that – 3 or 4 times over now.
justincredubil02 - December 9, 2010
and this is a bad thing?
TonyAlmeyda - December 9, 2010
George Sherrill is a ridiculously cool person. I love that the Braves always target good people.
cbwilk - December 8, 2010
I think it's cool...
That you know he’s cool. Cool.
Jman781 - December 8, 2010
And I was serious...
Slightly jealous you know these people…
Jman781 - December 8, 2010
You're the man CB.
Thanks for the info.
Scott Coleman - December 8, 2010
I hope you understand my intense dislike of the man comes from a very rich, bountiful source. But I shall do my best to give him a fair shake.
TheLetter2 - December 8, 2010
Someone shoot me:
Scott Coleman - December 8, 2010
I just seen that on ajc well I guess he’s the man
BravesMania - December 8, 2010
until he hits .198 in ST
DolphinNation - December 8, 2010
honestly i'm hoping schaefer can beat him out..
SidGlaus - December 8, 2010
he won't
when will people realize that Schafer has burned some bridges in the Organization and it may be time to cut our losses and trade the guy when he still has SOME value.
apoxonbothyourhouses - December 8, 2010
how so?
jdmarine - December 8, 2010
he has no value in a trade right now.
and there are no bridges…there have been numerous reports of how the FO is still behind him and supporting him
Swo12bv - December 8, 2010
Agree, everything I’ve ever heard was Schafer made the team, he’d be back after his rehab.
bighop - December 8, 2010
this
The FO is still have a lot of confidence and faith in him and his abilities.
Braves24 - December 8, 2010
so he burned bridge's in the organization eh?
http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-braves-blog/2010/12/06/remember-jordan-schafer-cf-is-prepping-for-big-return/
SidGlaus - December 8, 2010
What are you talking about?
fandave - December 8, 2010
I like it when people make up information from nonexistent sources, especially when it flies in the face of all the evidence. Takes moxie, I tell ya, MOXIE!
MartinMcFly - December 8, 2010
You mean like when Kawakami took a dump on Bobby Cox’s desk after his removal from the rotation, and thats why he was never used?
10-4 - December 9, 2010
It’s about that time where we can pretty safely say that with all the development time he has lost, Schafer will never hit left handed pitching well enough to play everyday.
jeg - December 8, 2010
come on you are better than this… he can still learn, just becuase he is older doesn’t mean he won’t figure it out…he is only 24 or whatever there he is still young.
Swo12bv - December 8, 2010
It’s really not the age, its the lack of experience against upper level LHP. That’s absolutely crucial and he’s lost almost 2 seasons worth of AB’s over a 3 year period. This after being rushed to the big leagues. It’s going to be really tough for him to catch up on LHP, being that he was behind in that area prior to missing so much time. I’d have to think he has to get 500 PA’s at AA this year and even then, he seems much more likely to wind up a platoon guy or 4th outfielder in even optimistic scenarios.
jeg - December 8, 2010
why wouldnt we have him work at AAA…he has already competed at AA, if healthy send him to AAA…
i certainly don’t think he is ready for MLB yet, but AAA seems the right place and I have higher hopes for his LHP struggles than you I guess…so we’ll see.
Swo12bv - December 8, 2010
I would say AA just because he’d have a better chance to succeed at that level of play, which was the last level he played well at, way back in September 2008.
I guess we’ll see. Certainly seems like a competitive, hardworking guy. I hope he can stay healthy and have a chance to succeed.
jeg - December 8, 2010
Don't worry, he'll lose it
Free. Matt. Young.
DolphinNation - December 8, 2010
I honestly hope he does win the job. If he can get back to his 20/20 days, he would be huge in our lower-third.
king of games - December 8, 2010
I agree...
Sort of…
I don’t care if he’s a 20/20 guy (though that would be nice)…I just want him to be decent. That’s all I ask.
Jman781 - December 8, 2010
Anything to push Procter further down the relief list until he proves he can be effective (at least effective against the minors).
Pavy848 - December 8, 2010
But why did we give him $750,000?
Mr. Sanchez - December 8, 2010
Wren tried out the peyote that he used on the Marlins for the Uggla deal. Had to make sure it worked.
He must’ve been satisfied that it worked after seeing what he did.
Pavy848 - December 8, 2010
Really, $750k for any pitcher with big league experience is basically a non-issue. They can cut him and not think twice about it.
king of games - December 8, 2010
how is it a non issue?
prior to sherrill the estimates were that we had 3-5 million left to spend. at that point $750,000 is an issue
lingsched - December 8, 2010
I’m fine with our roster as it is, any additional players are just icing.
king of games - December 8, 2010
So, if I’m reading this right, this makes the pen Kimbrel, Venters, Moylan, O’Flaherty, Sherrill, Proctor, and Linebrink. Who’s the long man? No one in that group readily jumps out at me as the multi-inning guy except maybe Everyday Jonny, but that idea scares the living daylights out of me.
J-Freak - December 8, 2010
Why, because...
he’ll leave his left arm on the mound after working every day?
My vote is Moylan and/or Sherrill is the long guy(s), with the 7th, 8th and 9th of Linebrink (?), Venters, Kimbrel.
DolphinNation - December 8, 2010
Martinez or Beachy?
king of games - December 8, 2010
In place of Proctor I’d assume? I thought I’d read somewhere Proctor was basically guaranteed a 25 man roster spot though.
J-Freak - December 8, 2010
He’s not guaranteed a spot on the 25-man roster, but I’m pretty sure that if they don’t put him on there he can take his $750,000 and then become a free agent again. So unless he’s just an absolute abomination in spring training or something, he’ll be in Atlanta.
Scott Coleman - December 8, 2010
So there really is no room for a long man. That seems like a grievous oversight.
J-Freak - December 8, 2010
Agreed. But it’s not like we’re out much money if Proctor sucks. If he can’t do it after a month, just cut him and call up Martinez.
Scott Coleman - December 8, 2010
Metaphysically punch me in my face if I'm wrong...
But he’d probably be sent to a minor league assignment, could refuse it and become a free agent (this part isn’t new).
If a team signs him, they do it for the minimum and the Braves pick up the rest of the balance he’s due on that contract (this is the “if I’m wrong” part).
I seem to remember this being the case with What’s His Bucket that was on MLBN at the end of the season…D-Backs signed him to a big deal, released him (same as the assignment refusal), and the Mariners (??) picked him up at the minimum, with the D-Backs holding the bag for the millions he was owed on that previous contract.
If this is correct (and I’m promising nothing, just how I remember it), the Braves would end up paying Proctor $750k if he isn’t picked up by anyone and $350k if another team takes him. It makes a big difference if the player makes several millions, but isn’t too big a deal if he’s paid just above the minimum.
-C
cthabeerman - December 8, 2010
That sounds right to me, but I wouldn’t swear to it.
bighop - December 8, 2010
Someone who knows baseball contracts...
I’d felt if he refused, he forfeits the remaining money owed in his contract. Is that correct?
Mr. Sanchez - December 8, 2010
If a player has 5 years of ML service time and refuses assignment, he’s still owed the money promised in the contract.
Lennox - December 8, 2010
Also, "What's His Bucket"
is Eric Byrnes, and I’m thinking the D-Backs just released him outright.
Mr. Sanchez - December 8, 2010
With our starting five, Fredi won’t need a long man.
Yakker - December 8, 2010
Even Glavine, Maddux, and Smoltz got bombed once or twice a year on average- you always need one longman.
Broccoman - December 8, 2010
Don’t forget rain delays over an hour or so
bighop - December 8, 2010
Whoosh and Double Whoosh
Yakker - December 8, 2010
1.2 mill
could get up to 1.4 mill with bonuses. A little more than I would have liked.
mj10catchit10 - December 8, 2010
I can live with it.
Yakker - December 8, 2010
Was thinking around $1M even.
But I am always a little lower than reality.
parish - December 8, 2010
Braves sign Sherrill
1.2 M + Bonuses = 1.4 M
joshant - December 8, 2010
Ehh, 1.2 I can live with.
Can one of y’all refresh my memory as to what Linebrinks contract is?
jdmarine - December 8, 2010
We pay $2MM.
-C
cthabeerman - December 8, 2010
Considering...
The Linebrink deal was originally reported to only have Cash around $1.5MM coming back our way, getting both Linebrink and Sherrill for around $3MM is solid.
Jman781 - December 8, 2010
Thanks C!
jdmarine - December 8, 2010
We're getting even closer to our 25 man roster being set...
Hudson, Hanson, Lowe, Jurrjens, Minor/Beachy
Kimbrel, Venters, Linebrink, Moylan, EOF, Sherrill, Proctor/Martinez/Marek/etc.
McCann, Freeman, Uggla, Chipper, Gonzalez, Prado, McLouth, Heyward
Ross, Mather, Hinske,
That’s 23, and my guess is our 24th will be an in-house shortstop and our 25th will be a center fielder brought in via free agency or a trade.
Pretty solid, if you ask me. Our bullpen made about $15M last year, and it’ll only make about $8M this year. That works out nicely.
Scott Coleman - December 8, 2010
Hadn't even thought about that!
Really nice!
jdmarine - December 8, 2010
It looks good now, but if Chipper, Uggla, or Prado go down, we’re in serious trouble.
Scott Coleman - December 8, 2010
Not if we sign a decent utility guy. Our bench seems even deeper than last year, and that’s saying something.
king of games - December 8, 2010
I guess Brooksy isn’t gonna make it.
king of games - December 8, 2010
I expect Schafer, Young and Constanza to compete for the bench OF spot. If Wren can dump KK, he might use that money for Hairston Jr or another bench infielder
bighop - December 8, 2010
Bill Hall would be a good addition for this team. RH power that can play all over the diamond.
jeg - December 8, 2010
Hey apox.............
Can you explain your comment earlier? I replied but I am guessing that you didn’t notice. Don’t want to argue, I just want to know where you are coming from. Maybe you know something that I didn’t hear?
Your comment: when will people realize that Schafer has burned some bridges in the Organization and it may be time to cut our losses and trade the guy when he still has SOME value.
Sorry, I dunno how you all do that whole greying the comment thing.:)
jdmarine - December 8, 2010
Highlight the text while posting and click on the quotation mark.
someguy1 - December 8, 2010
Eh...
Like this?
parish - December 8, 2010
Thanks!!!!!!LOL
jdmarine - December 8, 2010
TheLetter2 - December 8, 2010
To preempt justin...
So assuming we had $5-6 mil to start after Uggla, we’ve spent $3M+ finishing our bullpen and are now left with about $2M.
When we free up another $2M by moving KK, we’ll have $4M left to spend on the backup infielder and 4th OF FW mentioned. Now who’s them gonna be? I’ve heard Everett and I’ve said Andruw, Posednik, or Murton. Any others?
someguy1 - December 8, 2010
I don’t think we’ll be signing another OFer. Pretty sure JS and Matt Young are going to fill it in.
king of games - December 8, 2010
Kinda risky,
don’t you think? If Chip goes down, then we are counting on Nate and a very young player to play at a high level.
Plus FW has already mentioned those three players as his remaining goals.
someguy1 - December 8, 2010
We only have 2 roster spots left, and presumably one will be a utility/SS. If we get another OFer, neither Young nor Schaefer will get a shot. And don’t forget Hinske and Mather can also fill in the OF corners if neccesary. I don’t see much risk in JS or Young as a backup CFer.
king of games - December 8, 2010
We only have 2 roster spots left, and presumably one will be a utility/SS. If we get another OFer, neither Young nor Schaefer will get a shot. And don’t forget Hinske and Mather can also fill in the OF corners if neccesary. I don’t see much risk in JS or Young as a backup CFer.
king of games - December 8, 2010
Wren has said...
we wanted a LH reliever (Sherrill), a RH OF bat (I like Andruw), and “probably” a utility IF. Sounds like the extra OF is a priority over another IF.
Mr. Sanchez - December 8, 2010
There’s really no point in spending more money on another outfielder when we already have two decent cheap options for the one spot. I would think another IFer would take priority as we really have no decent backup SS. That would mean that if we got another OFer, both JS and Young would have to go back to the minors.
king of games - December 8, 2010
Schafer isn't really an option unless he's amazing...
because he really needs at bats. Matt Young is suspect as well in spite of the massive amounts of love he gets around here. We need another OF.
You might think a SS should be the priority, but from what Wren says, he disagrees and feels it’s OF. And guess who’s vote actually counts on the issue?
Mr. Sanchez - December 8, 2010
Hell fire
Wren keeps saying Constanza could be 4th OF.
bighop - December 8, 2010
"Could"
doesn’t mean he’s going into camp with him inked in pen for the role.
Mr. Sanchez - December 8, 2010
As much as I’ve heard/read about Wren praising Schafer, Young and Constanza, I have a hard time buying he needs an OF more than he needs a SS/utility guy. With those 3, Mather, Hicks and Diory, he might be done already.
bighop - December 8, 2010
But Schafer is the only one of those 3 with big league experience
and as we’ve said numerous times, his extensive missed action the last 3 years means he needs everyday at bats like he could get in Gwinnett. Hicks, Diory, they’ve been our emergency utility IF the last few years, and Wren may be comfortable letting them try to step up.
Mr. Sanchez - December 8, 2010
I can’t disagree with any of that. But when Wren mentioned Schafer about a month ago, I immediately thought back to his saying he told Schafer that he had made the team already, just get the wrist well and there would be a place for him. Personally, I think Schafer needs to prove he’s ready in AAA. But what I keep hearing and reading makes me think he’ll get a shot out of ST. I certainly do not expect Wren to bring in an outfielder that could block Schafer for 3 more years like Cain could.
bighop - December 8, 2010
I think he’s got a team we can get to the playoffs with if he can’t make any upgrades, but I’d be surprised if he can’t upgrade Mather’s and Diory’s spots on the bench, especially with ~$4M remaining to spend.
someguy1 - December 11, 2010
Worst case scenario, if an injury occurs we could trade for another OFer later, either in ST or mid-season. At this point, I think the focus should be on the IFer.
king of games - December 8, 2010
The OFer would replace Chipper’s playing time and the IFer would replace Uggla or Gonzo, in case of a serious injury. Which do you think is more likely?
And for all the Schafer/ Matt Young biz, wouldn’t you rather have a proven backup plan for $1-2M than relying on a young kids? Plus it would probably be good for Scahfer to do everything he can (in AAA) to prepare to take over CF in 2012.
The 4th OF would insure against Chipper’s injury and Nate/Schafer’s ineffectiveness. I’ve said it before that giving Andruw a 2-yr $3.5M contract seems like a good fit.
someguy1 - December 9, 2010
CF is the only need left.
Broccoman - December 8, 2010
With Schafer, Young and Constanza as cheap CF possibilities, I’d rather spend any KK $$ finding a better utility than Mather
bighop - December 8, 2010
This
I don’t see us signing a FA OFer, if the Brewers bite on Beachy for Cain we’ll do that, otherwise probably just a utility guy or straight up backup SS will be the only remaining move.
king of games - December 8, 2010
I’m guessing that we’ll end up spending or trading for either a shortstop or center fielder, and then we’ll just use an in-house option for the other.
And let’s be honest, it’s not like losing McLouth or Gonzalez is going to hurt out performance that much.
Scott Coleman - December 8, 2010
Agreed, but obviously our in-house options for CF are much better than our options for SS.
king of games - December 8, 2010
ding, ding, ding
truer words were never posted
bighop - December 8, 2010
see above
someguy1 - December 8, 2010
I don’t see us getting a new CF unless he is a drastic improvement over what’s expected of McLouth (by the org.). There are very few on that list IMO, with Michael Bourn being one of the lower candidates (to be much better than Nate) considering age, availability, etc.
With Schafer, why would we trade for a young speedster with potential other than depth?
And with Nate, the costs of trading him will be too big to replace him with anything less than a superstar, or a future one.
Just my two cents.
someguy1 - December 8, 2010
Same goes for SS
by the way, and would likely involve dealing one of our current starters, along with others.
And FW says all that’s left is RH 4th OF bat and IF backup. Unless we can get a superstar at SS, CF, or SP, I can’t see any more moves. What can you think of?
someguy1 - December 8, 2010
Schaefer...
He has stated that his wrist never really felt strong last year, or at since the injury for that matter. Now he says it feels 100%. I have a gut feeling we will be seeing some strong contention in house for starting CF.
jbeachbum24 - December 8, 2010
Funny how people forget how good Schafer was before the injury got really bad. His OPS was like .850 for the first few weeks of the year.
Scott Coleman - December 8, 2010
He has talent.
If his wrist can get healthy he could be a good CF for us.
MBL1 - December 8, 2010
This + 100
People are so quick to right the young ones off when they struggle for awhile. If Schafer can get back to april 2009 form, it’ll be like found money. Also, after seeing that Wren is looking for a RH OF bat, I’m thinking that means Mather is the primary 1B/3B bench guy, with Hinske and another RH hitter patrolling LF when Prado is at 3B. As for SS, Diory fits the bill just fine and is very cheap.
murph35 - December 8, 2010 via mobile
I thought Sherrill was done after that horrible season. I hope this move works out and Sherrilll can be effective as the 3rd LHP.
LEastCoastBears - December 8, 2010 via mobile
I'll take it
Like someone said above, before we knew the actual numbers on Linebrink we heard we were paying him $4.5M…..so the way I look at it we’re paying less than that for Linebrink AND Sherrill, good work Frank
KJDH2154 - December 8, 2010
Even if either doesn’t pitch extremely well for us, they are still good veteran presences by all accounts. With the youth in our pen, that’s probably worth what we’re paying them anyway.
king of games - December 8, 2010
Kinda hoping Proctor doesn't make the club out of ST
because I’d rather see what a guy like Marek is capable of, now that we have 2 veteran RP’s in the pen to go with the young guns.
DolphinNation - December 8, 2010
I really hope
The organization wises up and we don’t see a Proctor sighting in Atl this year. Some pitchers have the capability to bounce back mentally and physically and some well……just don’t…..I would love to see Marek, get every opportunity to hold a place within our pen. Does anyone know whether Marek could be a possible option for long rel. duties?
chicagobullies - December 8, 2010
Yep good move pending KK deal
Hopefully KK can be moved soon to free up what I hope is $3 million in cash; Sherill is another good pickup in one of the strongest parts again of the Braves team for the upcoming season which is the bullpen. Sherill was once a closer and he could be good insurance in case Kimbrel struggles in that role but that seems unlikely and again Sherill will close similar to Saito early on last year when Billy Wagner needed a game or so off. Kimbrel is still a beast of a closer lookout for rookie of year in Kimbrel next season since it is his first full season at the MLB level.
KK needs to be moved, why is it taking so long damn would someone sign C. Lee so that other moves can be made already. Just go to the damn Yankees Lee we all know it is going to happen hopefully sooner rather then later.
Good move though thought last nite perhaps O’s – KK deal for M. Gonzo and salary relief both ways but not now.
Closer – Kimbrel
Setup – Linebrink
MR- Venters, Moylan, Sherill, Marek
LR- Proctor or C. Martinez
Looks like a great Bullpen Braves are going to take the NL East next year see ya Philly back to the cellar you go where you belong or rather like you spent many seasons before R. Howard bust onto the scene.
Go Braves.
Holty_Panthers_Fan - December 8, 2010
Forget one
EOF is still a major cog in the pen
murph35 - December 8, 2010 via mobile
Shit Sorry Murph35
My Bad, swap Eric O for marek.
Holty_Panthers_Fan - December 9, 2010
i'm not exactly a wiz when it comes to the payroll and whatnot...
but can someone explain to me why we didn’t try to bring saito back this year? Would he have been too expensive?
SouthernPanther - December 8, 2010
well we were looking for another LHP, so Saito wouldn’t have been that guy…
We could have brought him back instead of Saito….but I think Saito still scares teams…there was a report that he had a tear in his elbow and the team was pretty careful with him..plus he is 40 something. Its better not to play with fire for too long is the analogy i would use in reference to Saito.
Swo12bv - December 8, 2010
cool
thanks man
SouthernPanther - December 8, 2010
i certainly wouldn’t take that as gospel, just my opinion
but you are welcome
Swo12bv - December 8, 2010
Beachy for Cain?
Wouldn’t we be getting the crap end of this deal, or especially if its Beachy for Gomez?? I tend to hold a little higher regard for Beachy……is this really his value?
I would love to see Beachy stay, but wouldn’t it be more realistic to hold onto him , atleast until the trade deadline? He could get starts in AAA, and provide insurance, and possibly increase his stock with more solid outtings.
Realistically, the braves are a playoff team with few holes to fill, now with another lefty option, and with the emergence of other talented pitchers coming up, in the near future, Beachy does not seem to hold a spot in this organization, on the starting team.
But, once again, wouldn’t we be getting the crap end of these deals? and, for the previously mentioned reasons, wouldn’t our best bet be to hold onto him until the trading deadline. This way we can see how Mac, and J-shay and/or Mighty Matt perform?
chicagobullies - December 8, 2010
Would prob be
skewed towards our favor from an outsider’s standpoint, but I like Beachy more than most as well. Dunno why really.
someguy1 - December 8, 2010
Lol me neither,
But for some reason I like the guy too. Prolly homerness, and his good story, but I know he’s not viewed as some bum, and I just believe to trade him away now, especially for nothing really better than what we got is simply, to put it nicely, not smart. But I am also no GM or hold no, valuable baseball knowledge either, so I dunnno
chicagobullies - December 8, 2010
Also,
You never know who else could be made available during those times, and although I do like what Cain brings to the table, he is not really a high or even upper mid-level player/prospect.
I believe Beachy is a good/ better than decent starting trade chip, and to blow him off for some 4th outfielder is marginly, well…. retarded. This is the case, especially when we don’t even know what we are going to get outta Chip, or Mac or his backups. I think when the idea of Cain was brought up, too many people think of his athleticism and upside, and tend to forget thats the same alot of people saw in Mac. Also, we did add a new batting coach, and I believe we should let him atleast have a chance, to work with Mac, and see what he can do. Rather than trade away one of our better trading chips. Thoughts or opinions?
chicagobullies - December 8, 2010
Cain has value
When the Blue Jays traded Wallace for Goss, they commented on how few CF prospects there are that can make an impact. Well, if Goss is considered one, then I’d think that Cain would have to be on the list as well.
As a prospect, he’s always flown under the radar. He was considered a raw athlete when drafted and started out in RF. He was switched to CF when he started to move from raw athlete to decent prospect… and then he got hurt and didn’t play much for a year or 2. He just never really got the pub as a prospect, but he’s a decent one. He could be a true 5-tool guy with a really good OBP. Honestly, I think he could slot @ the top of our order by the end of the season…
theatlfan - December 8, 2010
You sir, are correct. Cain is being terribly underrated
jeg - December 8, 2010
I think the worry is that Beachy kind of came out of nowhere last year, and nobody knows if he’ll have continued success. So trading him now could be selling high, and even if he does pan out we only lose a back end righty starter, not that difficult to replace.
king of games - December 8, 2010
seemingly makes sense.
But is Cain or Gomez really the best we could get for him…..really??? lol..I just find it hard to believe. And the Brewers wanting Minor for Cain is simply retarded. I know Beachy is a great story and whatnot, but Minor is a legit top prospect, and the Brewers have to be retarded. Or is there something i’m missing on this Cain kid?
chicagobullies - December 8, 2010
No, that’s why Wren refused the Minor deal. Really, Beachy’s ML numbers last year don’t look that great. If you watched him pitch you would be impressed, but not neccesarily on paper. So I think a Beachy/Cain deal should be acceptable for both sides.
king of games - December 8, 2010
...
who is honestly evaluating 15 innings of work at the ML level?
lingsched - December 8, 2010
Cain, probably is the best we can get...
if even him. Gomez, well he’s not nearly as good as Cain.
Mr. Sanchez - December 8, 2010
Depends...
on how real Beachy’s rise is. Remember, before this season, his value was pretty low. Now, he had an amazing year, but is it just a flash in the pan, or is he a legit starting caliber MLB pitcher?
If last winter, we’d done Cain for Beachy, the Brewers fans would have been livid.
Mr. Sanchez - December 8, 2010
Beachy for Cain is a steal for us. Plus defender in CF, good on base-skills, and a swing to add extra base pop. If not for the injuries he struggled with in 2008 and 2009, people would be talking about Cain the same way they talk about Desmond Jennings
jeg - December 8, 2010
No "people" don't
I have yet to see ONE publication that rates Cain even close to Desmond Jennings! Jennings has been a Top 20 prospects the past couple seasons Cain was barely Top 100 material. He’s been getting a lot of hype as of late because of his SSS in the ML.
Jay212033 - December 9, 2010
Never said he HAS gotten rated close to Jennings. I’m saying their skill sets and ceiling are nearly identical, Jennings slightly more speed while Cain is a slightly better defender in CF.
And Cain is no small sample size flash in the pan. Cain has consistently displayed speed, defense, and strong on base skills in the minor leagues. He didn’t start playing baseball until he was 16 and early on in his pro career was considerably more raw than other guys his age, but he got high marks for his tools.
jeg - December 9, 2010
And that's even with all the injuries Jennings had
Jay212033 - December 9, 2010
Can’t wait to face those lefty-heavy lineups in the late innings
award6 - December 8, 2010
Per DOB tweet
Teheran and DelGado could both be ready by mid-summer, I bet they hold onto Beachy until then in case of injury to a starter.
bighop - December 8, 2010
Sorry
he was quoting Fredi
bighop - December 8, 2010
One of them, or another AAA pitcher, could likely be called up even earlier in an emergency. I don’t think that affects a Beachy deal at all.
king of games - December 8, 2010
Everyone's mentioning Schafer as a viable bench candidate
Are there any reports of him actually improving? Last i remember he was demoted down to AA when teheran and delgado were promoted
NJoverNY - December 8, 2010
Yeah, big write up about him a day or two ago, seems to be 100%
bighop - December 8, 2010
Link
it’s a fanshot
bighop - December 8, 2010
I'm cautiously optomistic about JS based on that article
although I’ve heard the “best shape of my life” thing before with Frenchy, and we all know how terrible that turned out. I realize they’re not exactly the same situation, but I still have some reservations
leedawg - December 8, 2010
Ugghhhh comparison fail
Let’s just not compare any braves player to failcouer. Prado came into last year ITBSOHL from doin the p90x stuff, and Prado is down in Orlando with schafer now, let’s hope the two can workout together and have some of praxis mojo rub off on him
murph35 - December 8, 2010 via mobile
praxis = prado's *
My bad.. Dang autocorrect. What does praxis mean anyways?!?
murph35 - December 8, 2010 via mobile
It’s a sexual position
bighop - December 8, 2010
A big writeup!?!
That means they are desperately trying to trade him. Anything on Braves.com is company approved propaganda. Don’t believe me? Find the writeup on Charlie Morton right before the Nate McLouth trade.
roberty - December 8, 2010
Yup
Said this a few weeks ago, and everyone told me I was crazy. I think the Braves are pumping Schafer up for a deal, either now or mid-season. We’ll see.
Yakker - December 9, 2010
It wasn't on Braves.com
so I guess that shoots a big hole in your statement.
Mr. Sanchez - December 9, 2010
If you think a blog by DOB will increase his trade value, so be it. I can see it firing up fans, but GM’s might want a bit more info.
bighop - December 9, 2010
improvement is not the issue, he wasnt healthy at all last year…he is supposedly healthy now…last year he admitted his hand/wrist didn’t feel right.
we are now in the wait and see mode, to see 1) is he healthy and 2) is he back to his old self
Swo12bv - December 8, 2010
Knee-jerk reaction
Not digging it. Typically, Baltimore relievers turn to crap once they leave Baltimore. See:
BJ Ryan
George Sherrill
Chris Ray
I’m willing to bet if Koji Uehara goes somewhere else to be a late-reliever, he’ll do poorly in his new home too.
royhobbs - December 8, 2010
That doesn’t really indicate anything. I’d just like to know why we have Scott Proctor.
TradeAndruw - December 8, 2010
I'm confused by this, roy...
Chris Ray was decent in 2010, his only non-Orioles year (3.72 ERA, 4.48 FIP). About the same as his career #s (4.02 ERA, 4.57 FIP). He was never that good.
Ryan was absolutely fantastic in his first year in Toronto (1.34 ERA, 2.14 FIP). He only sucked after that because he got hurt, and he was actually pretty good in 2008.
Sherrill sucked last year, true, but he was excellent in the last half of 2009 with the Dodgers (0.65 ERA, 3.17 FIP). He wasn’t even that good in his only full season in Baltimore. He was much better in 2007 with Seattle (2.36 ERA, 3.11 FIP).
In other words, this is not a trend. At all.
Jacob Peterson - December 8, 2010
Ray was decent in Texas. I was hoping he would be non tendered by the Giants so we could sign him for cheap. He has pretty nasty stuff.
roberty - December 8, 2010
This is decent.
Probably a bit more money than I’d like, but nothing disastrous. I’m not sure we really needed another LOOGY, but he has been effective against LHBs in his career. Presumably this means Venters will be more of a true set-up man/closer (which makes sense), leaving EOF and Sherrill as the true lefty-only guys.
Now I hope Wren is done with the bullpen, because we still need a backup IF (not convinced Diory can handle it) and an alternative CF for if/when McLouth bombs out (I’ll believe Schafer is ready again when he shows it in games).
Jacob Peterson - December 8, 2010
Bullpen set up seems...
Kimbrel at the back end we hope.
Venters and Linebrink as the go to guys when you need an out depending on RH or LH.
O’Flaherty slots in behind those two.
Moylan as a ROOGY, Sherrill as LOOGY.
Then Proctor, Martinez, Marek, Gearrin, Hyde, etc battle for the last spot.
And unless he trades away pitching I can’t see any need for more now. When he was on MLBN the other day, he said remaining needs were a lefty for the pen (Sherrill), a RH OF, and a utility IF. So two things left to get.
Mr. Sanchez - December 8, 2010
How much money we still have?
joshant - December 8, 2010
just wanna say
i called this one
willlinn - December 8, 2010
well at least i said it would be a good and likely move i wanted
I think this is a tremendous move.
willlinn - December 8, 2010
Solid move
I really didn’t think we needed another reliever, but this move can’t hurt us and could turn out to be a great move.
Braves24 - December 8, 2010
our bullpen will be a weapon next year
is there only one spot left? who all is competing for it?
willlinn - December 8, 2010
don't think it will be as good as last season
but should be pretty solid
lingsched - December 8, 2010
technically, our bullpen is full
kimbrel, venters, o’flaherty, moylan, linebrink, sherrill, and proctor. proctor was given a major league deal (not really sure why) of 750k. after last year’s atrocity, he sure didnt deserve it.
one thing that strikes me as odd: none of those 7 guys are long relief candidates, so the braves might have to get fancy with the “fake injuries” and send proctor on a “rehab assignment” for a month or 2.
ryan c - December 8, 2010
i´d rather have Marek than Proctor
joshant - December 8, 2010
are we looking at one of beachy or minor being the long reliever?
willlinn - December 11, 2010
Oh yeah,
I like that idea.
someguy1 - December 11, 2010
Not a bad deal
wish Linebrink was on a similar deal… as no way that guy is worth 2 mil
UltimaParadox - December 8, 2010
Stats are nice...mmm hmm
Sometimes facts are awesome! I’ll take it!
Ryan c posted this on AJC…
Siteburner - December 8, 2010
i've never had a "shout out" thrown to me before...
thanks siteburner.
ryan c - December 8, 2010
No prob...
I thought was a pretty strong and eye-opening statement.
Siteburner - December 9, 2010
hahahahahahaha
did anyone catch this on espn? “Sherrill could battle for the Braves’ closer role that opened when Billy Wagner retired after last season.” the worldwide leader in sports indeed.
lingsched - December 8, 2010
He can battle. He’s just gonna lose.
king of games - December 8, 2010
i dont see why that's out of the question...
the closer’s role will likely be based on matchups. if utley and howard are scheduled to come up in the 9th, i’d most definitely want sherrill in there. (see stats above)
ryan c - December 8, 2010
If he can shut down lefties like his numbers suggest, he is a pretty strong pick up. hopefully we can hurry up and dump KK to get that salary relief…
SouthernPanther - December 8, 2010
KK rumor mill stir churning tonight
KK will be traded soon and I am as impatient as the next guy; various MLBTR links below regarding it. Was believed that KK was going to the O’s, then the deal was dead and now it has some limited life again. I don’t believe the A’s are any longer players in the KK dealings seems as if the Pirates and O’s are the only two teams interested in KK. In the end I believe he goes to the Pirates where M. Diaz currently is. All we are going to get for him is about $2 – 2.5 million in salary relief. However Braves are rumored to be seeking more then that for KK in salary relief so I am guessing the first club willing to take $2.75 – $3 million can have him for cash considerations and a player to be named later scenario.
Brewers and Braves are still talking about L. Cain but the Brewers want M. Minor for him Straight Up. To that I say HELLL NO, Minor is a great young lefthanded pitcher and is gonna be out #5 starter beating out Beachy in the end. I would give the Beachy for Cain straight up but that would be all, SORRY Brew Crew take what you can get.
Brewers would really rather trade C. Gomez and hang onto Cain is the current rumor but of course all of this can change every couple of mins, hrs, etc..
With so many good Utility Guys on the market I just wish C. Lee would sign so that all the big names are off the free agent market as far as big time franchise caliber players and we can move with our lives b/c until Lee signs it is going to be hard to trade any pitching for anything like it our not.
I am still holding out hope that we either Trade for Cain or acquire either C. Guzman or A. Everett to complete our bench and move forward. I mean like so many have said we already have a finally rumored to be healthy Schafer and M. Young is still in the minors and had a great season so all this love for Cain is pretty funny to me considering he has only appeared in 43 games in his MLB career.
Hey why not just sign T. Gywn Jr and A.Everett and be done with it ? Still in the end I believe we get L. Cain (NOT FOR M. MINOR THAT IS NOT GONNA HAPPEN BREW CREW), and we let Diory or B. Hicks be our backup Utility IF which I am not crazy about but hey with out Liberty Media company imposed salary cap we don’t have a choice.
Links:
KK Rumor Mill :
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/12/latest-on-kenshin-kawakami.html
Brew Crew-Bravos Trade Talks;
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/12/braves-brewers-still-talking-trade.html
Holty_Panthers_Fan - December 9, 2010
If they want to move Gomez instead of Cain...
they can have Kawakami for him. Yeah, more expensive, but KK is more valuable than Gomez. Willing to give Cain, you can have Beachy, but if it’s just Gomez, KK is the best I’d offer.
Mr. Sanchez - December 9, 2010
You’ve got to be shitting me.
Unless LM has opened the coffers, Wren has baffled me this week.
justincredubil02 - December 9, 2010
Wait….I thought you wanted Frank Wren to add as many relievers as possible?
Scott Coleman - December 9, 2010
Why?
He seems to be spending this year what was spent on Wags, Saito, and Glaus (about $11-12 million)…
TBuzz - December 9, 2010 via mobile
It seems that we are bracing for a low-scoring team – stacked rotation and now double-stacking the bullpen. The appearance is that we are planning on protecting small leads.
justincredubil02 - December 9, 2010
Our offense is better than last season's on paper
Personally though I do think Wren needs 1 more good bat in CF. I really hope McLouth puts up numbers similar to what he did in Sept. that would be perfect.
Jay212033 - December 9, 2010
Our offense is not better on paper than last season. We have 3 huge questionmarks in the lineup right now, and that’s without considering a massive regression year from Alex Gonzalez.
justincredubil02 - December 9, 2010
Who would you have rather had, realistically please, at that price with that experience that is that good against lefties???
KJDH2154 - December 9, 2010
Nobody. I would have rather spent the money on the offense.
justincredubil02 - December 9, 2010
Then what 7 guys would your bullpen consist of?
Just sounds like you’d be more willing to risk going into ST with Proctor/Marek/Martinez fighting for 2 spots. Don’t you think that’s a lot higher risk than $1.2M on a LOOGY with experience who has a reputation of dominating lefties??
KJDH2154 - December 9, 2010
Venters, Kimbrel, Moylan, EOF, Marek, Proctor and KK – if you are asking what I would do.
justincredubil02 - December 9, 2010
“Venters, Kimbrel, Moylan, EOF, Marek, Proctor and KK – if you are asking what I would do.”
Ugh.
Way too many question marks and too much youth. That’s a good place to start, but that’s not a bullpen you want to enter the season with.
Frankly, I’m baffled by the folks who think the Braves didn’t need to add any real bullpen depth. Baffled. I love Venters and Kimbrel as much as the next Braves fan, but the Braves absolutely needed to get a couple more good, veteran relievers. I’m glad Wren has done that.
2Brave2Bscared - December 9, 2010
Sherrill and Linebrink are without questionmarks? Both are coming off of some of the worst seasons of their careers.
justincredubil02 - December 9, 2010
Sherrill still held lefties to a sub .600 OPS. He’s a good pitcher if he’s used properly, which apparently the Dodgers didn’t know how to do. As for Linebrink, I think he’s a good bet for a nice rebound year in Atlanta. The only thing really out of whack for him in Chicago was his home runs allowed rate, but given the friendlier pitching dimensions of Turner Field, I don’t think that’ll be as much of a problem for him next year.
Why is “veteran” important? I don’t know. Why don’t you ask Kimbrel who benefited tremendously from Billy Wagner’s tutelage last season? Of course, having a “veteran” for the sake of just having a “veteran” is mostly pointless if that veteran sucks (see Garrett Anderson). But as I said, I fully expect both Sherrill and Linebrink to be quality arms for us. They’ll also provide much-needed leadership in an otherwise young pen.
If you don’t like either Sherrill or Linebrink, fine. To be honest, they weren’t my first choices either (though I do like the acquisitions). But you seem to be under the erroneous impression that the Braves didn’t need any more bullpen arms at all. That’s a ridiculous position.
A big part of what made the Braves’ bullpen so dominant last season was its depth, and the flexibility that depth provided Cox to mix and match. Venters was especially valuable because he was a guy who could come in anywhere between the 6th and 9th innings to get multiple big outs; that flexibility is lost if you relegate Venters to the 8th or even 9th inning. Adding a couple of proven arms helps restore that flexibility, which will only make the bullpen better.
2Brave2Bscared - December 9, 2010
Signing bullpen arms is great – if we have a need for them.
At this point, it is nothing more than a luxury, when we have other needs and some serious question marks in the offense.
Spending our remaining budget on a luxury is not good.
Our bullpen very well may be the best baseball next year, but at what expense?
Is the benefit of moving from a very good bullpen to a very very good bullpen worth the cost of going from a mediocre offense to a mediiocre offense?
justincredubil02 - December 9, 2010
I disagree again. Signing bullpen arms was a need, not luxury. A luxury would have been going out and getting Zack Greinke. A luxury would have been trading for Mark Reynolds to backup Chipper at third.
- Moylan’s walk rate has gone up each of the past three seasons; he can’t get lefties out to save his life (though hopefully further development of his changeup corrects that to some degree).
- Kimbrel is a power arm with nasty stuff, no doubt about it, but he also has control issues he still needs to work through.
- EOF is good, but he’s pretty much only a LOOGY.
- As for Venters, I think he’s legit, but can we really expect him to be as filthy as he was last year? And if he does prove to be as good, he certainly won’t be as valuable to the Braves as he was last season if he can’t be used in that crucial two on, nobody out situation in the 6th or 7th because he’s our defacto setup guy.
I don’t mean to disparage these guys because I do like them all, but there are question marks there, and there is also a serious lack of depth problem if you don’t have anyone beyond AAA pitchers and KK/Proctor to rely on beyond those guys.
What offense do you think the Braves are missing out on by signing these bullpen arms? What could we possible get for the $3MM Wren has spent on Linebrink/Sherrill that would dramatically improve our offense?
Let me reverse the question. You could spend that $3MM on a slight upgrade on offense somewhere, but at what expense to the bullpen?
2Brave2Bscared - December 9, 2010
The addition of Uggla alone makes the Braves’ offense better. So I don’t know why you’re acting as if the Braves are going to run the same “mediocre” offense out there as they did last season.
2Brave2Bscared - December 9, 2010
There are huge quesions at 3B, 1B, SS and CF – the offense isn’t exactly projecting to be Philles-esque.
justincredubil02 - December 9, 2010
I agree
but these questions would not be able to be addressed with the $3M we spent on the pen.
At some point, a $80-90M payroll team has to hope some things work out, and in this case, I think the money helps our bullpen more than it would our offense.
I couldn’t think of a scenario where $5-6M would really improve our options at either of those positions you mentioned. I think we’d have to trade something really big (JJ, Beachy, Delgado -esque package) to make a major upgrade, which is still a possibility.
Also, 3B is filled until Chipper says it isn’t whether we like it or not (I like it).
someguy1 - December 9, 2010
No expense to the bullpen, since it is loaded with talent, and our minor leagues are stacked.
justincredubil02 - December 9, 2010
Yes...
So loaded with talent, in fact, that when pressed on who you thought should have comprised the 2011 Braves bullpen, you included Scott freakin’ Proctor and Kenshin Kawakami.
Thank God Wren has a little more baseball sense.
2Brave2Bscared - December 9, 2010
So, those guys aren’t talented?
justincredubil02 - December 9, 2010
Also, why is “veteran” so important?
justincredubil02 - December 9, 2010
Um they have experience, can teach younger guys. I’m assuming you didn’t think Saito and Wags were good pick ups last year
PhuckthePhillies - December 9, 2010
you are absolutely crazy if you think Saito and Wagner are comparable to Sherrill and Linebrink…Everyone knows Saito was good and Wagner is an elite closer…there were injury concerns, but talent was clearly present….
Sherrill and Linebrink have a significant risk of being below replacement level…now that risk is mitigated by a low price tag, but in no way are Saito and Wagner ever to be compared to Sherill and Linebrink that ridiculous.
Veteran prescence is great, however, you usually have to pay extra for it. so you better make sure that the veteran presence you acquire is 1) gonna add the intangibles you want them to and 2) gonna perform well enough to be worth sending out to the diamond when you need them. Paying old guys bc they are old is stupid (not saying thats what we are doing, but adding a veteran presence for the sake of adding a veteran is not intelligent)
Swo12bv - December 9, 2010
Saito and Wags werent great bc they were vets
They were great players who happen to be vets. Experience is one of the most overrated thing in sports (though not quite as overrated as ‘heart’).
Doghnut - December 10, 2010
1. Heart
2. Experience
3. Know how to win
4. Calm Eyes
5. Grit
justincredubil02 - December 11, 2010
Really no sub for talent, but without the list of five things there, talent is often wasted. If you can get a few guys with those 5 characteristics to teach the truly talented players how to maximize their talent, then it’s definitely worth it.
someguy1 - December 11, 2010
Talent is wasted without Calm Eyes?
What does ‘knowing how to win’ even mean?
And have you not noticed how winners always have heart but losers dont? Ive never met a losing team that had heart.
These five things are bullocks.
Doghnut - December 11, 2010
Calm eyes = Don’t panic
Knowing how to win = High pressure experience
I’ve not noticed that trend. I’ve noticed that players with ‘heart’ that win are noticed and those that lose aren’t.
These five things ARE however impossible to quantify, and so pretty meaningless when trying to compare players. Doesn’t mean they are not important.
someguy1 - December 11, 2010
I’m flabberghasted.
Heart doesn’t throw 100mph, and grit doesn’t hit the ball 450 feet. Talent and physical ability does.
justincredubil02 - December 12, 2010
I'm not going to make a list
of players that have wasted talent because of a lack of desire to play baseball, which is what people think of when they say heart. I’d start it with your pet SS though.
The jokes against these intangibles largely come from advanced stat snobs IMO. Just because they cannot be measured doesn’t mean they aren’t important. Just means they aren’t quantifiable and relatively useless in making comparisons.
What good is being able to throw 100 mph if you have 0 desire to do so? Haven’t you seen ‘The Scout’?
someguy1 - December 12, 2010
Also, I didn’t mean these five attrivutes, specifically, but just attributes of this nature. Obviously, calm eyes is a bit of a sillier description than the others.
someguy1 - December 11, 2010
Did the 1995 Braves and 2010 Giants teach you nothing about pitching?
TonyAlmeyda - December 9, 2010
The 1995 Braves could hit and so could the Giants…you need balance, having no offense won’t allow you to win the WS.
Swo12bv - December 9, 2010
Giants were average at best, offensively.
I think calling them a balanced team is a stretch. I’d say in that regard that we were much more balanced.
someguy1 - December 11, 2010
well thats fine you can think that, but the Giants scored more runs than we did and then scored more runs than everyone else. They scored runs against Halladay, Hamels, and Lee, we couldnt score against Lincecum and Cain.
Swo12bv - December 11, 2010
SSS
someguy1 - December 11, 2010
By nature, all playoffs would be sss.
justincredubil02 - December 12, 2010
Yeah, so pretty useless in estimating the talent of an offense.
someguy1 - December 12, 2010
Dear Carl Crawford,
if I could
borrowhave like one thousand of your recently acquired 120 million dollars to pay for next semester, I would really appreciate it.Love,
mvhs
Scott Coleman - December 9, 2010
Ah…142 million dollars. My mistake.
Scott Coleman - December 9, 2010
Boom. Roasted.
Posted this mostly cause I haven’t seen it in a while….and your Hawkeye comments
KJDH2154 - December 9, 2010
If Iowa lost to Arizona by 7, I can only imagine what Mizzou is going to do.
I’m looking forward to that game.
Scott Coleman - December 9, 2010
Mizzou is overrated…..did you see our top receiver DJK was arrested on drug charges late last night?? He was trying to sniff out Mizzou’s game plan (pun so obviously intended)
KJDH2154 - December 9, 2010
were do u live in iowa
jd49 - December 9, 2010
Originally from Sheldon, life in Cedar Falls now
KJDH2154 - December 9, 2010
i live west of ames
jd49 - December 9, 2010
Cyclone country…..that must suck
KJDH2154 - December 9, 2010
lol
Iowa was the most overrated team in 2010, so saying Mizzou is overrated is a bit ironic.
I don’t know why, but I’ve always hated Iowa. Kind of odd too, because I had never seen them live before this year. And now I’ll see them twice in the span of three months.
Scott Coleman - December 9, 2010
Iowa wasn’t so much overrated talent wise….but more out coached on many instances. Iowa had a lot of talent, no doubt, but was very complacent
KJDH2154 - December 9, 2010
at first i thought they were to cocky, but the more it went the worse the coaching got, Definately missed Norm Parker
jd49 - December 9, 2010
Brace yourself
For all the Jacoby Ellsbury shit again.
kauf67 - December 9, 2010
?
Was there really a lot of it? Granted, I don’t do the rosterbation threads, nor did I do the Ellsbury thread…
Personally, I wouldn’t mind having him.
justincredubil02 - December 9, 2010
Tons
And I’d love to have him too. It’s just that when people see the Sox signed Crawford (or Gonzalez) they automatically conclude that Ellsbury will be made available.
kauf67 - December 9, 2010
Can we hope beyond all hopes that Drew is available???
justincredubil02 - December 9, 2010
Bazinga?
Lennox - December 9, 2010
you know I love JD Drew….but he doesnt not fit in with this Braves team. we don’t need a corner OF. if we had Drew we wouldn’t have anyone to play CF and we would have 3 guys who need to be playing everyday and only 2 OF spots to put them in. Unless you are advocating using Heyward in CF.
Cameron is a much more likely option, or possibly Ellsbury.
Swo12bv - December 9, 2010
Drew can play CF can't he?...
IMO, I think he’d be as good a defender as McLouth is there, with a better arm. His career UZR in CF isn’t bad (-1, -2.3 in UZR/150), although it’s a small sample size. And he’s always been pretty good in RF.
I think Drew can play CF, but he’s a LH bat, and like Cameron, we can only bring them in if the Red Sox eat all but $1 or 2m of their upcoming salaries.
Mr. Sanchez - December 9, 2010
my stance of Drew playing CF is similar to Heyward in CF…except with the caveat that Drew is older and more injury prone.
Drew can play CF, but you probably don’t want him doing it everyday for 130 games a season (there’s no way he plays more than 130 anymore).
and you are right we can’t afford them.
Swo12bv - December 9, 2010
I'd think he'd be a better CF than Heyward, with nothing...
but my own opinion supporting it, so I could surely be wrong. I just don’t want to mess with Heyward as the RF for the next 5-15+ years. Stick him in that spot, and leave him alone, imo. Drew and McLouth handle CF.
But then, again, we can’t afford it, and I’d think the Red Sox would be more willing to eat $5-6m for Cameron than $12+ for Drew that it’d take to fit him in our budget. Although with Crawford as a lefty, that may make Drew or Ellsbury the odd man out, as their young kids are also lefties (Kalish and Reddick), while Cameron is their only big league caliber RH OF.
Mr. Sanchez - December 9, 2010
thats a good point on being overly lefty right now. that probably means if they get rid of anyone its Ellsbury…but who knows…i still wouldn’t put it past the Sox to just go into the season with Crawford, Ellsbury, Cameron, and Drew or whatever they have, and keep McDonald and Kalish and the other dude in the minors.
it would provide insurance for the inevitable Drew/Cameron injury and keep everyone well rested…plus they can give Papi days off at the strenuous DH role
Swo12bv - December 9, 2010
I'd think first step...
is to see if anyone will take JD Drew without them sending money. Unless the Ellsbury stuff has reached a point of no return, then he gets moved. How good is Crawford’s arm? Or Ellsbury’s? Could either of them play RF?
Mr. Sanchez - December 9, 2010
Hmmm, ...
maybe Drew for Juan Rivera straight up? Red Sox save money, get another RH bat to compete for a corner OF spot. Angels get the better player.
Mr. Sanchez - December 9, 2010
JD Drew has a limited no trade, so I wonder who the teams he would block are, presumably Philadelphia and maybe the Cardinals since both of those franchises probably hate him.
If I had to guess, the Red Sox would prefer the prospect, seeing as they just dumped some for AGon, if they could get one guy back that is similar to one of the three they gave up, they would be happier with that than getting another OF. They can just use McDonald as their RH bat, he did fine last year, kinda.
And I don’t think they can move Drew without at leasting giving up a little bit of money..at least 3-5M, he is getting $14M, is older and injury prone and looked like he may start his decline last year. His BB% dropped as did his ISO…and since those are kinda his calling cards offensively…he might be in trouble going forward..
on the other hand, Cameron is the only good CF defensively they have, and Ellsbury is the only other everyday player who can even pretend to play CF (unless you include Kalish). so maybe Drew is the guy to move…neither option is great to keep or move…so it’ll be interesting to see what happens.
I do not think Drew can play CF, and you do so thats kinda a big consideration, we’ll see if the Sox agree
and Ellsbury has no arm whatsoever, and Crawford might be able to handle RF with his arm, but he’d be one of the weaker arms over there, I think. Not as familiar with his arm, than I am with Ellsbury.
Swo12bv - December 9, 2010
Wo, wo, wo...
If I’m the Red Sox, Drew ain’t in CF. But if the Braves added him to their current OF, that’s where I’m saying CF. Heyward can just set up pictures of his family and what not in RF, cause he’ll be working from there at least 5 more years. And McLouth vs. Drew, I think both are similar fielders, with Drew the better arm, so Drew to CF with McLouth as 4th OF/LF when Prado’s at 3rd. But that ain’t happenin.
And while the Red Sox would likely eat some salary if they moved Drew, it’d probably be less than they’d have to eat on Cameron considering how his year went last year, and the savings would be greater too as you’re likely taking less, from definitely more.
Mr. Sanchez - December 9, 2010
i think the Red Sox would eat approximately 6M on both players….so to them it doesn’t matter as much who they get rid of….meaning Cameron would be 2M and Drew about 8M. Drew is worth about 6M more than Cameron so that sounds about right to me in terms of how much the Sox would eat.
Also, I didn’t mean to imply Drew would ever play CF for the sox…they have Cameron, and Ellsbury and Kalish (although Ellsbury and Kalish aren’t that good defensively in my opinion, and DRS and UZR seem to agree, to varying degrees as UZR has him at average)
Honestly if we acquired Drew(side note its funny how extensive this debate has gone without any real indication the Red Sox are shopping anyone) , I would be interested to see how Prado would do in CF… he is more athletic than Drew is at this point. Like I have said I really don’t trust Drew in CF, so I would try to avoid that as much as I could, i guess it wouldn’t be as critical seeing as Heyward is well above average in RF and has enough range for help the CF.
Swo12bv - December 9, 2010
unfortunately they were overrated, had the tallent just not the willto win
jd49 - December 9, 2010
This just in!!!!!
The royals have signed Melky Cabrera. In related news the sun will rise tomorrow.
IslandBrave808 - December 9, 2010 via mobile
I just fanshotted this, somewhere in the midst of all my hysterical laughter. I absolutely cannot fathom that Dayton Moore still has a job.
J-Freak - December 9, 2010
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