Mark Bowman gives us our first real Braves rumor of this year's winter meetings:
The Braves are among the teams showing interest in trading for Brewers center fielder Lorenzo Cain. They are also very capable of providing the Brewers with the talented young pitching prospects they're seeking in exchange for Cain.
Cain is an improving young outfielder. Probably not as toolsy as other young center fielders some Braves fans would be familiar with, Gorkys Hernandez or Jordan Schafer, but Cain is more Major League ready than either at this point. I like the idea of getting a young speedster like this and not thrusting him into a starting role immediately. Give him the time to learn at the Majors and work him into the lineup more and more when he proves he's ready.
This is also a window into the Braves thinking about how they will look beyond the 2011 season. There is a possibility that the Braves could lose half of their starting lineup after 2011. If Chipper Jones retires or is unable to play after this year (or this year), if Dan Uggla leaves via free agency, and if the Braves don't retain Alex Gonzalez and Nate McLouth, then Atlanta would have four big holes to fill.
Certainly re-signing Uggla would solve one problem (though I still believe that will be put on hold until the team sees if Chipper can play everyday), and Martin Prado can be moved around the diamond as needed, but preparing a replacement for McLouth seems like an important task in 2011, especially one who could add value as a pinch runner and backup outfielder with speed during the 2011 season.
0 recs | 333 comments
Option a) Jurrjens, and ask them to add something to it.
Option b) Beachy
Throw in Kawakami if possible. Offer to pay a portion of it.
Seriously, this guy is the missing piece, and cheap. I’m sure of it. I’m not going to waste time on this deal.
Broccoman - December 6, 2010
At first glance...
I kinda like it. Right handed speed guy. Good defense. Would like it a little more if he walked more than nine times last year (in a small sample size). We could do worse.
mj10catchit10 - December 6, 2010
Looks like his walk rate was about 7% in the minor. .366 or so OBP according to MLBTR. That’s more then acceptable.
I’m sold on this guy at least being a stopgap until a better option happen, he’s also a + defender, so if something happens to Chipper, + in CF and ++ in RF= can play Hinske in LF without fear vs RHP.
If you put McLouth or Young in you got a real good defensive outfield, which will help cause the infield will be terrible except for Freeman.
Broccoman - December 6, 2010
“If you put McLouth or Young in you got a real good defensive outfield, which will help cause the infield will be terrible except for Freeman.”
McLouth just isn’t a good defensive outfielder. He’s got some speed, but his routes are sketchy and he has an arm on par with Johnny Damon’s. Young is apparently a good defensive outfielder, but also has a weak arm.
And you mean the infield will likely suck aside from Freeman and Gonzalez. I know Gonzalez had a stretch of errors at some point last year, but he is a good defensive SS.
Undocorkscrew - December 6, 2010
....and McCann is improving, I think
…..and Prado is capable at 3B, if Chipper goes down. I don’t think the infield defense is going to be as bad as some think. Certainly won’t be a good defensive unit, but it’s not like they’ve got butchers at all positions and if Freeman is as advertised, he’s likely to save them some runs. Don’t forget, we had Glaus and Hinske at 1B for the bulk of the 2010 season…..Freeman is an obvious upgrade, and I say that without watching him for more than a handful of innings.
Undocorkscrew - December 6, 2010
I rate A-Gon as average overall from what I’ve seen. I think Chipper is going to have very little range next year with the knee- I almost wonder if he’ll be a glorified DH by the end of the year.
At least that won’t be a problem in the Series. _
Broccoman - December 6, 2010
Are you basing it just on what you saw with the Braves last year?
That’s an awfully small sample size (and poor method) to determine a player’s defensive ability. Gonzo has been an above-average defensive SS by almost any metric for many years now.
cavebird - December 6, 2010
This, this this. Thank you.
The Keith Lockhart Era - December 6, 2010
Get em, Frank.
Scott Coleman - December 6, 2010
What’s the ceiling on Cain you think?
He doesn’t seem like the prototype leadoff hitter of .400 OBP…he’s a stud defender though.
TBuzz - December 6, 2010
A .360 or .370OBP is just fine for a leadoff man. A .400 OBP usually means you’re an elite player.
He could be a legit center fielder for quite a while. He kind of reminds me of Shane Victorino, and while he probably won’t be quite as good, he could still be an impact player.
Scott Coleman - December 6, 2010
FTFY…
-C
cthabeerman - December 6, 2010
Nicely done.
Scott Coleman - December 6, 2010
LOL!!
funny
HalleyGator - December 6, 2010
Well played, Sir.
Jman781 - December 6, 2010
REC'D!
jdmarine - December 6, 2010
Sweet Affliction shirt, brah!
The Keith Lockhart Era - December 6, 2010
I imagine...
Shane Victorino probably leads the league in Brorape…
-C
cthabeerman - December 6, 2010
He leads the league
In Green Goblin Lookalike Contests Won™.
He’s the Pujols of that little niche.
Sam Jethroe - December 6, 2010
I'm extremely tempted
To make this comment my new sig
kauf67 - December 7, 2010
He certainly has the Brorape intangibles...
The Keith Lockhart Era - December 7, 2010
Cain has a 1.667 OPS at Turner Field…
For what it’s worth :)
TBuzz - December 6, 2010
Let’s make a deal!
Scott Coleman - December 6, 2010
I wouldn’t give any of our top pitching for him,maybe you all know more about him,but he only played in what 47 games.The Brewers are said to be looking for starting pitching in return that means Minor or Beachy,and I just don’t think he is worth either of those guys.Now maybe a lesser prospect like Hoover who I think will turn out to be an pretty good pitcher himself but I guess you have to give them something.Definitly not J.J. we will lose out big time if that’s the case.
BravesMania - December 6, 2010
I think he'd be worth Beachy....
…..but not Minor, Jurrjens, Teheran(lol), Vizcaino, or Delgado. I’d be fine with anyone else being shipped for the guy.
I say Beachy and Schafer…..might not get it done though. Actually, I’m sure they’d have to throw in something else…
Undocorkscrew - December 6, 2010
I don’t want to give up on Schaefer yet, I’d rather offer Jurrjens, if the Brewers were willing to sweeten the deal some (with a prospect)
Beachy straight up I’m 100% fine with.
Broccoman - December 6, 2010
If Schafer proves capable, as does Cain, than you put Schafer in CF and Cain in LF. In terms of defense, the OF would be awesome. This would also allow Prado to move back to 3B next year. This would give us a lineup of Schafer, Prado, Heyward, Uglla, McCann, Freeman, Cain, FA SS, P assuming Chipper retires and Uggla is resigned.
AvoidTheDolphin - December 6, 2010
Agreed
Beachy no Minor or JJ.
JJ I would want something way more signifcant than L. Cain only.
Holty_Panthers_Fan - December 6, 2010
agreed..
i could not see how he could be worth JJ… espescially with several decent CF options comming up
i also woudlnt trade schaffer he seems to have wayyy more upside..
dont trade schafer!
willlinn - December 6, 2010
Plus
he’s from Valdosta. And we all know how the Braves like Georgia kids.
blairblink - December 6, 2010
Is he really from my hometown?!?!
I don’t remember hearing anything about this kid.
Jay212033 - December 6, 2010
?????????
Let me ask this how is his game,I just don’t know much about the kid,haven’t even seen him play to be honest,I just went over his stats and seen a highlight or 2 about him.Is he any good with the bat or does he just have speed.
BravesMania - December 6, 2010
He had probably the best OF catch in the majors last season…
TBuzz - December 6, 2010
Heck yeah.
Check it out.
BW Smith - December 6, 2010
wow
willlinn - December 6, 2010
clearly he is going to get a 4 year 48 M contract from the Angels ASAP…
it worked for GMJ
Swo12bv - December 6, 2010
Has his wrist recovered from that?
JW
KINGSLYTUT - December 6, 2010
He's good defensively, has great speed.....
…..and seems like he can get on base at an above average clip. Little power……he’s basically a Gorkys Hernandez, just with better defense.
Undocorkscrew - December 6, 2010
So basically he is Greg White just with better defense and slightly more power
Sounds like a great 4th OF/pinch runner/defensive replacement to me.
Just don’t give up too much Frank.
ATLandUNC - December 6, 2010
Even if Gonzalez stays, the Braves have a big hole to fill at SS.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
Yes, Justin, we know...
Scott Coleman - December 6, 2010
I don’t think you do.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
Wait...
You don’t like Gonzo?
Jman781 - December 6, 2010
I don’t think you do.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
I don’t think you know what is being thunk about your thinking
Mr. Sanchez - December 6, 2010
I think you do.
Tarkus - December 6, 2010
Maybe we can trade him for that SS they have in Toronto.
I forget his name, though. I’m sure someone can help me out with it.
Chopaholic - December 6, 2010
You mean the one who posted a .238/.334/.284 the first half of 2010 and ran out ground balls when he felt like it?
TBuzz - December 6, 2010
so what one bad year i promise we will regret that trade in the future. i like alex but i’d rather have escobar any day of the week.
farreasy - December 6, 2010
.334 is still higher than what Gonzalez can do – by about .40 points.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
And yet...
Gonzalez’s OPS was 58 points higher than Escobar’s with the Braves in 2010.
-C
cthabeerman - December 6, 2010
Yes. Yes it was.
One time, at band camp, Jeff Francoeur hit well for us too.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
And Francouer...
…probably did shove a flute….ah nevermind.
cavebird - December 6, 2010
He's
A perfect comp for talent dwindling into nothing, a la Yunel.
Here’s the progression…
“He’s amazing at the plate and one of the best in the field!!”
“He’s struggling at the plate, but boy can he field!”
“He can’t get on base, but he plays the field pretty well.”
“Can we platoon this guy??”
-C
cthabeerman - December 6, 2010
Except Yunel only lost his power last season. He still hit for a good average and he got on base a ton.
So no, the comp the way you want it, doesn’t work.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
He TORE IT UP at .256/.337/.318 last year!
TBuzz - December 6, 2010
That OBP is about 40 points higher than Gonzalez’ was, and the average only a few points less.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
OBP, FTW?
forgot ops, let’s just focus on half that equation. Why want anyone listen to me about Gonzalez? I’m being really super serial you guys!!!!!
Excelcior!
Mr. Sanchez - December 6, 2010
REC’d, one of my favorite episodes of all time.
king of games - December 6, 2010
When the OBP is .40 points greater, yeah it kinda matters more than OPS, at least, to me.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
so imagine how weak he must be hitting...
for a guy who can’t steal, and isn’t a great baserunner, to have a lower ops.
Mr. Sanchez - December 6, 2010
That OBP is about 40 points higher than Gonzalez’ was, and the average only a few points less.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
That OBP is about 40 points higher than Gonzalez’ was, and the average only a few points less.
TBuzz - December 6, 2010
Dammit, am I multi-posting again? It kept telling me that my comment couldn’t be posted, and I definitely can’t see any of them…stupid Afghan internet…
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
That average is close to Gonzalez’, and the OBP is about .40 points higher.
I’d rather have fewer outs with fewer HRs than way more outs with more HRs – especially from the SS position.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
so what?
who will have the better career? def. yunel
farreasy - December 6, 2010
Who will cost way more next season??
For potentially no better performance??
Def. Yunel.
-C
cthabeerman - December 6, 2010
No better performance?
Yunel’s career worst offensive season still produced a higher OBP than Gonzo’s career best season.
Yunel also has better D, and would cost less next year.
If you think he will cost more, that means you have to believe that he will get a huge arb raise, which indicates that he has played not just well in the past, but very well.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
this
Braves24 - December 6, 2010
Yunel is going to make way more than $2.5MM next season.
No one’s saying he hasn’t produced in the past. The question is whether he’ll produce in the future.
-C
cthabeerman - December 6, 2010
you don’t think it will produce in the future? I kinda think that’s absurd but ok
Braves24 - December 6, 2010
you don’t think it will produce in the future? I kinda think that’s absurd but ok
Braves24 - December 6, 2010
itheBraves24 - December 6, 2010
Singles and walks...
His ISO with Toronto (I’m not even handicapping him with his Atlanta time) was the fourth worst in the league among SS last season. If you include Atlanta, it was third worst. Oh, and he was negative defensively.
Guy is a headcase and can’t really be trusted for anything, at this point.
-C
cthabeerman - December 6, 2010
Negative defensively? He led the league in runs saved at the time of the trade…I don’t believe he cost over 20 runs in the 2nd half on the defensive side of the ball.
He finished 3rd in defensive war in 2009 for all position players.
But you are right, we should have dumped his sorry ass. 3 bad months > 3 really good years.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
I'll clarify
He was negative defensively during his time in Toronto.
I’m still not seeing this great 2009 defensive season. I’m looking for it, but I’m not finding it.
-C
cthabeerman - December 6, 2010
Baseballreference.com
just look up Yunel, and look at his “Awards” section. It will show that he finished 3rd for defensive WAR that year.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
Yes, but B-R...
…does not use the best defensive stat. With UZR he was far lower.
cavebird - December 6, 2010
You think Yunel will get a $2M raise?
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
He’ll make between 3 and 4 million, even with last season counting against him.
We’ll know more about what he gets when they get closer to arbitration, but I can’t see the Jays risking an offer below $3MM and losing.
-C
cthabeerman - December 6, 2010
Call me crazy, but if he “can’t be trusted for anything” why on earth would a team give him a $3M dollar raise?
After all, he clearly is terrible at baseball.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
You seem to undervalue the fact that even Bobby Cox couldn’t motivate him to play the right way…
You want to pay someone’s arbitration when it will likely exceed Gonzo’s 2012 option?
TBuzz - December 6, 2010
Yes, I would want to pay arbitration to one of the top 3 shortstops in the game over Gonzo’s 2012 option.
And define “play the right way”. You would rather have a guy “play the right way” and be worse? I’d rather have the better player on my team – the one who we were in 1st place with and is better in every aspect of the game.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
one of the top 3 shortstops in the
gameNL East.FTFY
BW Smith - December 6, 2010
No, you didn’t fix it. You messed it up. It was right the first time.
Yunel is the best defensive SS in baseball, and one of the best offensive SS. I MIGHT take Hanley or Rollins over him, but that is about it.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
agree
farreasy - December 6, 2010
You know, there’s this guy in Colorado….word is out he’s kinda good, a heck of a lot better than Yunel
jwrocks - December 6, 2010
Ah yes, I knew I was forgetting someone. Tulo is a beast. On second thought, I’d take Yunel over Rollins, but not Tulo.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
just curious...
who’s your top 5 SS’s in the MLB? I was talking about this with a friend the other day in relation to Jeter.
dunnytwogloves - December 6, 2010
my list.
1. Tulo
2. Hanley
3. Alexei
4. Starlin
5. reyes
farreasy - December 6, 2010
but defensive wise i’d go with yunel as the best ss.
farreasy - December 6, 2010
No, he's not...
UZR on fangraphs lists our very own Alex Gonzalez above him last year. Other candidates as better SSs than Esco are Tulo, Alexie Ramirez, Brendan Ryan, Elvis Andrus, Cliff Pennington, Stephen Drew, Cesar Izturis, among others.
Mr. Sanchez - December 6, 2010
Jeter wouldn’t be in my top 10, if that’s the real question.
In no particular order, right now, I would go with Tulo, Reyes (when healthy), Yunel, Rollins, Hanley.
Oh, here’s a fun fact: In Yunel Escobar’s career worst year, he had the 7th highest OBP for SS.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
And the fifth-worst OPS.
-C
cthabeerman - December 6, 2010
We’ve already established the fact that his power disappeared – and that was pretty much the only thing that was bad for him at the plate last season.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
Sweet!!
Sign up Caesar Izturis, if dwindling power isn’t a concern.
-C
cthabeerman - December 6, 2010
Only if he is one of the best defensive SS who gets on base a lot.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
Oh my God
enough about Gonzo vs. Esco. The trade is done. Get over it
bravesguy311 - December 6, 2010
I will when we have a SS who can OBP higher than his weight.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
Or one who spends fewer dollars for haircare products…
TBuzz - December 6, 2010
Cause Sea Bass is now over 300 pounds?
when did he turn into royhobbs?
Mr. Sanchez - December 6, 2010
RIght after he ate Haithcock.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
Essentially my pal...
We got one, now please, for the sake of sanity, stfu about it. It’s as bad as KJ. No, you don’t bring them up. But damned if you don’t chime in every time with the same comments again and again and again and again.
Mr. Sanchez - December 6, 2010
woo man
royhobbs is 300 pounds of muscle, big difference.
Braves24 - December 6, 2010
Taking Yunel and Rollins over Hanley is just nuts.
There really isn’t much comparison.
Here are three triple slash lines from last year and career with career UZR/150 at SS:
-- .289/.364/.397 (3.2 UZR/150)-- .272/.328/.485 (5.3 UZR/150)-- .313/.385/.520 (-8.9 UZR/150)Yes, #3 is far worse defensively, but the huge, huge offenseive difference makes him by far the best.
cavebird - December 6, 2010
He hates lists of names...
let’s get back to obp.
Mr. Sanchez - December 6, 2010
No list of names needed...
just look at that on base percentage. And his age. And his play 2-3 years ago. I’m really super serial this time you guys.
Mr. Sanchez - December 6, 2010
that’s why we like you justin
jwrocks - December 6, 2010
You're out of your mind...
Tulo, Alexei Ramirez, Starlin Castro, Stephen Drew and about five other SS would disagree.
-C
cthabeerman - December 6, 2010
Alexei Ramirez? You’ve got to be smoking crack. Tulo is the only one on your list who is even close to Yunel.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
If you’re looking for all-glove, no-bat, he’s your guy. Much better than Yunel last season.
-C
cthabeerman - December 6, 2010
Alexei is good defensively, for sure, but Yunel is the best in the game – and he has a good bat, so he has that advantage too.
Yunel had a rough 2010. Chipper had a rough 2009, but we seem to still like him ok.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
Had a good bat.
He’s never statistically been the best-fielding SS…closest he ever got to that was sixth place in 2008.
-C
cthabeerman - December 6, 2010
2009…unless you are going off of fielding percentage….if that’s the case then there is no use in continuing this conversation any further.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
2009…unless you are going off of fielding percentage….if that’s the case then there is no use in continuing this conversation any further.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
Which do I reply to??
I chose bottom.
Yunel hoisted a 1.7 UZR/150 in 2009, good for 15th among qualified shortstops.
Insert coin, try again!!
-C
cthabeerman - December 6, 2010
He also finished 3rd in defensive WAR in 2009….for ALL position players.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
No, he didn't...
…unless you are using the inferior TZ stuff instead of the Fangraphs UZR. You pick your defensive stat of choice not because it is better but because it supports your argument. Unless you have some reason to pick TZ/B-R stuff over UZR/Fangraphs stuff.
cavebird - December 6, 2010
Bingo...
See his usage of obp instead of ops in this debate.
Mr. Sanchez - December 6, 2010
When the difference in OBP is that great, the upgrade in power is not worth it.
justincredubil02 - December 7, 2010
In your opinion...
others clearly disagree. Of course, the opposite could also be said, when the difference in slugging is that great, the upgrade in obp is not worth it for a player that isn’t a good baserunner.
If Escobar were an Ellsbury, or even an Andrus, capable of stealing 30+ bases, taking an extra base on singles and doubles, I might agree, but he isn’t. He’s been a pretty bad baserunner throughout his career, and a horrible base stealer. With that in mind, and I don’t think the extra times on base are nearly as valuable as you are making it out to be.
Mr. Sanchez - December 7, 2010
And I don’t think the extra home runs are more valuable over an entire season than the number of outs not made.
justincredubil02 - December 7, 2010
Because HRs are all that go into SLG?
How about doubles, Gonzalez had over 40 last year, and 17 with Atlanta alone. Yunel had only 19 all of last year. The 3 years prior, he was pretty consistent with 25, 24, and 26 doubles, and a combined 4 triples in those 3 years (0, 2, and 2). Gonzalez on the other hand, has 29 triples in 12 seasons, had half the triples as a Brave (2) as Yunel has in his entire career (4), and has 7 seasons with more doubles than Yunel’s career high.
But that’s all his slugging is, just a few “extra home runs”. There aren’t numerous other extra base hits in that equation that Yunel pounded into the ground. And again, it’s not like Yunel does things on the base paths to make up for a lack of power.
But OBP, FTW!
Mr. Sanchez - December 7, 2010
I forgot Gonzalez was such an awesome hitter – 29% of the time.
justincredubil02 - December 7, 2010
I wonder what Esco's obp would be...
if you remove the times he almost immediately runs into an out because he had his head up his butt?
But hey, keep harping on one of the very few stats that you think support your theory.
Mr. Sanchez - December 7, 2010
So now, we are going to make up stats to support your theory?
OBPMSO – OBP Minus Subsequent Outs.
justincredubil02 - December 7, 2010
What theory?...
that Yunel isn’t a much better, if better at all, defensively compared to Gonzalez? Yeah, most stats agree with that “theory”.
Or that Gonzalez was a superior offensive player to Yunel last season thanks to a .140 differential in slugging between players who are negligibly different (and that’s being generous to Yunel) as base runners?
Mr. Sanchez - December 7, 2010
One positive for Yunel on the basepaths...
… his stolen bases in between pitches are hillarious! (Strange player Yunel, sometimes has his head in the game more than anyone else on the field, sometimes less than anyone else on the field.
cavebird - December 7, 2010
I was using the B-R stuff. Not cherry-picking anything. I used what BR cited.
justincredubil02 - December 7, 2010
You used the one that BR cited...
that best fit your argument, ignoring others, likely better metrics, that wouldn’t support your argument as strongly.
Mr. Sanchez - December 7, 2010
Nothing on BR goes against my argument, and I can’t get Fangraphs to load over here.
The only other resource I had was ESPN which uses it’s own form of zone rating (which had esco pretty middle-of-the-road) and some other rating which had him top 5…then there was FP…
justincredubil02 - December 7, 2010
Sucks you can get Fangraphs to load.
Don’t get me wrong, I have my doubts about UZR, but everything I have heard indicates that it is the best defensive metric we have right now. I was going to say that everybody knows that you go to Fangraphs for defensive data, but if it won’t load, I guess I can’t blame you for that.
cavebird - December 7, 2010
Again, not true...
aside from a single season in 4, and a single stat among many, what else on BR indicates that Yunel is Yunel is “the best in the game” ?
Mr. Sanchez - December 7, 2010
Nothing. What contradicts it?
justincredubil02 - December 7, 2010
What contradicts that he's...
“the best in the game”? How about the other 3 years where he isn’t 3rd in baseball in defensive WAR? How about UZR? How about a whole lot of statistical measures contradict it, aside from your single stat in a single season.
Mr. Sanchez - December 7, 2010
Defensive metrics are clearly flawless and awesome.
justincredubil02 - December 7, 2010
Funny, because that's what you're relying on...
a single defensive metric, amongst many, from a single season, amongst 4.
But hey, obp, FTW! Defensive WAR in 2009, FTW!
Mr. Sanchez - December 7, 2010
Chipper put up an .818 OPS in 2009. Yunel’s was .618 with the Braves last season.
But what’s .200 OPS between friends??
-C
cthabeerman - December 6, 2010
And Chipper’s OPS was about the same difference from his career norm as Yunel’s was.
But hey, I get it. Gonzo hitz DINGERZ. Who cares that he makes an out at a much higher rate than Yunel? All that matters is that he can hit more HRs.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
Or is just as good a fielder, with a better ops...
but hey OBP, FTW!
Mr. Sanchez - December 6, 2010
He’s not nearly as good (or young) as Yunel, nor can he get on base as well.
But, he hitz DINGERZ, so let’s extend him!
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
Where are you getting "extend him"?
Mr. Sanchez - December 6, 2010
And Chipper’s OPS was about the same difference from his career norm as Yunel’s was.
But hey, I get it. Gonzo hitz DINGERZ. Who cares that he makes an out at a much higher rate than Yunel? All that matters is that he can hit more HRs.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
If you think Tulo is even close to Yunel...
…you’re smoking the crack. He is farther above Yunel than Alexei is possibly below him.
cavebird - December 6, 2010
Defensively???
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
Without a doubt.
Tulo UZR since 2007: 24.5
Yunel UZR since 2007: 9.5
-C
cthabeerman - December 6, 2010
Reading back through the thread...
…it was overall not just defensively. You were calling Escobar one of the three best shortstops in baseball and people were calling you out on it. It was just based on defense. If you switch to defense only mid-stream, you have to let people know. At least I thought you were talking over all.
cavebird - December 6, 2010
The conversation was about both. I was asking you to clarify which part you were talking about.
justincredubil02 - December 7, 2010
But that statement is wrong...
there isn’t a single stat or metric you can find that says Yunel is the best defensive SS in baseball (oh wait, you found a single season among 4, and a single statistic among many, where he finished that high, but you’re not cherry picking). And if his offense going forward is more like 2010 than his earlier years, he’d be one of the worst on offense, not among the better ones offensively.
Mr. Sanchez - December 7, 2010
There is no reason to believe that his offense from 3 months will be what we should expect from him, especially when his other 3 years and 3 months differ greatly.
justincredubil02 - December 7, 2010
just the 3 years...
because for this entire season, he struggled at the plate. Go look at his numbers in Toronto if you’d like, they didn’t indicate much improvement, and his last two months this past season (in Toronto) weren’t much better than his first two (in Atlanta). You say it like he bounced back to his 07, 08, 09 self in Toronto, but he didn’t.
Mr. Sanchez - December 7, 2010
No, but he was at least decent there.
And he was 7th in all of MLB for SS at getting on base – which is the most important stat for a hitter.
justincredubil02 - December 7, 2010
It is the most important stat for a hitter...
…but it isn’t the only important stat.
cavebird - December 7, 2010
Depends on how you define decent...
after a nice run to end July, he had an ops of .670 and .637 in August and Sep/Oct., grounded into 9 double plays against a combined 8 RBI and 7 extra base hits (5 doubles, 2 HR). He had a .314 wOBA up there. He had a better WAR in Atlanta than he did in Toronto, even considering the 15 fewer games he played there. And the fielding component of that WAR, if you trust fangraphs values, went from 5.6 here to -1.3 there, so he got much worse defensively while still providing below average offense.
Fangraphs has him with negative WARs for Toronto in both fielding and batting, something I feel disagrees with “he was at least decent there”.
Mr. Sanchez - December 7, 2010
Most important...
But it’s not 50+% importance of all offensive stats.
It’s the most important component, but it is still just one component.
-C
cthabeerman - December 7, 2010
I believe you need to put down the opium...
Afghani shii has messed up your head.
(also, I clicked on this thread with 140something posts, with the one above on KK only having a small handful. Why did I know you’d have a lot to do with the high #).
Mr. Sanchez - December 6, 2010
I love Managerial advice from someone who probably knows LESS than what Bobby Cox has forgotten today.
You put up with lazy play from one, you put up with it from everyone else. Unfortunately Yunel has yet to bridge that gap between “talent” and “production”…
TBuzz - December 6, 2010
And yet, even with that perceived laziness, he is still the best defensive ss in baseball.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
The numbers...
come nowhere near supporting this conclusion.
-C
cthabeerman - December 6, 2010
I think this argument is way past logic or numbers…
TBuzz - December 6, 2010
How do the numbers not agree? He finished 3rd in defensive WAR in 2009 (in all of baseball, not just for ss) and he had over 20 runs saved at the time of the trade this past season.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
Dunno where you're getting this...
But his fielding performance metric on fangraphs is +1.6, nowhere near the amount you’re claiming.
-C
cthabeerman - December 6, 2010
The runs saved stat.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
I see it now...
Look at how it’s derived. It’s little better than fielding percentage, all done in terms of putouts and assists, dp opportunities converted, etc.
Any ball hit towards them is as good as the next in such ratings. Gives no award or penalty for not reaching balls, etc.
-C
cthabeerman - December 6, 2010
Ah yeah, I forgot how poor Yunel’s range was…
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
Never said that.
However, UZR is a much better metric, imo.
-C
cthabeerman - December 6, 2010
You forget nothing about Yunel...
just that in his career, Gonzalez has been about as good a fielder
Mr. Sanchez - December 6, 2010
About as good = not as good.
justincredubil02 - December 7, 2010
Kind of like Esco in...
power, ops, as a teammate, as a consistent player who doesn’t have to sit constantly for various nagging injuries, who isn’t constantly hitting ground ball after ground ball becoming double plays, making bonehead mistakes in the field or on the base paths, and other areas where he’s not as good as Gonzalez.
Mr. Sanchez - December 7, 2010
He makes better defensive plays and fewer outs. I’d rather have that guy.
justincredubil02 - December 7, 2010
Don't get me wrong.
Yunel is, overall, better than Gonzalez. The defensive is close (I give a slight edge to Gonzo, but others might disagree and I don’t think the difference is meaningful at all) and Yunel (other than last year’s disaster) is a better hitter. Yunel is a train wreck, however, and the trade from last year was clearly made with that problem in mind.
cavebird - December 7, 2010
On the other hand...
…your saying that you would rather have Yunel than Hanley is pretty ridiculous.
cavebird - December 7, 2010
Ironically enough, it was the attitude that drives that decision on my part.
But yes, Hanley is a superior player offensively.
I am giving Yunel more credit on the defensive side, which I think is more important for a SS.
justincredubil02 - December 7, 2010
Maybe you need to join Amazing Avenue...
because that is about as bad as Schneider = McCann because of his D.
Mr. Sanchez - December 7, 2010
Not even close, straw-man.
justincredubil02 - December 7, 2010
Did you or did you not attempt to claim...
Yunel > Hanley because of D and attitude?
Mr. Sanchez - December 7, 2010
Obviously Cox, Wren, and the rest of the Braves organization feels differently, and I’d rather trust their opinion on the subject then yours, especially when you cherry pick stats to support your theory, and ignore others which prove you wrong.
Mr. Sanchez - December 7, 2010
And yet, sadly, none “prove” me wrong.
And yes, Wren and Cox disagree with me, obviously.
justincredubil02 - December 7, 2010
Clearly, UZR does.
kauf67 - December 7, 2010
That explains the varying defensive rankings.
If cthabeerman is correct and runs saved is just done in terms of putouts and assists, dp opps converted, etc., this would explain why Yunel would look great in runs saved while merely looking solid to good in UZR—-with all the ground ball pitchers the Braves run out there, Yunel just has a ton more chances than other shortstops.
cavebird - December 7, 2010
The basic formula is something like (putouts + assists) / innings played. They use a similar formula in double play situations, assists from the OF, etc., to normalize it for all positions as well as unique situations, but it’s not much of a cut above fielding %.
Here’s some interesting reading on metrics…I still haven’t delved incredibly deep into the subject, but this is an adequate overview I found helpful.
The RF listed in the last part is what BR is using.
From here: http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?72825-Best-defensive-metric
If you read thu the thread, it’s pretty apparent, that while there are definitely differing opinions on defensive metrics, that +/- UZR, etc. are clearly better than some of the others.
-C
cthabeerman - December 7, 2010
who cares he’s not the manger anymore damn.
yunel is the better player, it was a bad trade, alex had a decent yr last yr. but don’t expect that again specially at tunner field he can’t drive the ball here.
farreasy - December 6, 2010
You don't like Gonzalez...
why?
Mr. Sanchez - December 6, 2010
I like Gonzalez the person. He is just a huge offensive liability that makes our team worse.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
such a liability
that it needed to be posted twice
Braves24 - December 6, 2010
I like Gonzalez the person. He is just a huge offensive liability that makes our team worse.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
I know justincredidouche...
it was a rhetorical question. After about the 1,174th time reading your bashing of Sea Bass, I think I figured out your stance on the issue. But hey, OBP and a single season of great defensive metrics last year, FTW!
Mr. Sanchez - December 6, 2010
Good one
I wish there was a “like” button.
roberty - December 6, 2010
there is, just 'rec' the comment
click “actions” down at the bottom of the post and up will pop “rec” and “flag”
enough recs and the post will turn green
Darin H - December 6, 2010
Why did so many people intrude on a justin/Mr. Sanchez debate? Made it less fun
GoBravesNY - December 6, 2010
+1
anyone got popcorn?
Braves24 - December 6, 2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQa3Nr6JA-w
Mr. Sanchez - December 6, 2010
From what I’ve read on Braves sites are that the Braves are real high on Beachy and just might use him in the pen if he can’t crack the rotation.To be honest I like the kid and just don’t see Cain being equal value for him at least from what I’ve seen from both thus far.
BravesMania - December 6, 2010
TRADE JURJENS!
Save on the salary!!!
HalleyGator - December 6, 2010
Keep Beachy and Minor
HalleyGator - December 6, 2010
The Braves are trying to trade Kawakami....
….and if they do and trade Jurrjens, that means they’ll have two rookies in the rotation, Minor and Beachy. Just don’t see that happening….
Undocorkscrew - December 6, 2010
damn your funny
farreasy - December 6, 2010
what would it cost?
i’m all in favor of trading jj at some point, but for cain? that may be selling jj low a bit…i think cain would definitely be worth it for the right price…
forgotten_glory - December 6, 2010
Isn’t that what Schafer is? I think letting Schafer mature in AAA all year and signing a FA is a better option than potentially giving up JJ or Beachy.
He does seem like a good player though, I’d be excited we had him, as long as I don’t miss out on Beachy or JJ’s value.
I’d give up Minor though depending on how far into arbitration Cain is.
someguy1 - December 6, 2010
Cain has no power.
Actually, he has 1 power. He’s also in his second season, so two years at the minimum and 3 in arb? I still think I prefer Schafer in center, but he would be valuable this year and could be used in a trade next year to fill some holes.
Minor for Cain!
someguy1 - December 6, 2010
He still has all six years, three minimum and three arb...
Only played in 43 games and came up later in the season, so he hasn’t even had his first year of minimum salary yet.
-C
cthabeerman - December 6, 2010
Nice.
That sweetens it.
someguy1 - December 6, 2010
Minor?
TBuzz - December 6, 2010
Minor??
Do not want trade.
-C
cthabeerman - December 6, 2010
Expand please?
Minor seems like a good candidate to get shipped, ML ready projected 3rd starter, young and cheap.
Why not?
someguy1 - December 6, 2010
The only ML ready Lefty SP in our system…lots of RH bats still in our division. I would trade someone else…
TBuzz - December 6, 2010
Someone else of similar value though, right? Or do you think the trade is lopsided?
someguy1 - December 6, 2010
Because it's a redundant need, short and long-term...
Schafer will be out in CF, if his comeback follows through (and the prognosis is currently very good on that). While McLouth isn’t optimal, he’s going to get his money this season, and he’s going to get first crack at the starting position.
Cain is a nice piece, but I’m not sure where he fits in and when. If he’s not going to be an everyday, contributing starter for the next 5-6 seasons, then there’s no reason to give up Minor for him.
Honestly, Beachy should be enough to grab him up.
-C
cthabeerman - December 6, 2010
Ah, I see
The difference is I like Beachy better than Minor.
Cain’s value to me is a 4th OF this year and cheap insurance for Schafer going forward or trade bait for the mentioned holes.
But basically we’d be giving up a close to ML ready 3-4th projected starter as a fair trade? I think it’s a good enough deal (but I’d still rather have Andruw, lol)
someguy1 - December 6, 2010
Why do you like Beachy better than Minor?
Not disagreeing with you at all, but just curious as to your reasons.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
The way he pitched in September,
IMO ws better than Minor. I like his pitches better from what I recall. A mid 90’s FB with a really good curve.
I don’t remember Minor off the top of my head, but I remember deciding I liked Beachy’s pitches better.
someguy1 - December 6, 2010
Minor was mid 90s on his fastball with high K totals this past season and, IIRC, 3 plus pitches.
He projects as a better pitcher than Beachy by almost every measure.
But, I guess it comes down to if you believe Minor’s increased velocity was real or an illusion.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
I remember Minor striking out 12 in Wrigley…
TBuzz - December 6, 2010
Minor was gassed...
He threw about 160 innings combined in his first professional season (including minors).
Beachy was at 135 IP by the end of the season, and he’s had an extra year in the minors (although it was a mixed season, half starting and half relieving, like his 2010 season).
Minor has the better stuff of the two, if all the reports are true. I don’t see any makeup/mental toughness issues that would lead to a pitcher with worse stuff posting considerably better results at the major league level.
-C
cthabeerman - December 6, 2010
That seems to be the consensus. Maybe it was flukey performances, SSS, stuff like that.
All reports really like his change-up, but I’ve got it stuck in my head that Beachy’s pitches were better, and only time will change that.
The only thing I read which might support my view is the inconsistent velocity which you mentioned.
In any event, I agree that Minor was the more valuable of the two in terms of trade value, perhaps I overestimated what it would take to get Cain. I would think a top young controllable CF would demand at least a MLB ready back of the rotation starter, especially for the Brew Crew who is in desperate need of pitching now.
Maybe if they threw in some infield propects for Minor it would look better? I just don’t see them trading for Beachy, who is likely still a year away from being trusted as a starter when they need pitching now.
someguy1 - December 6, 2010
I do agree
that Minor has more value right now though.
someguy1 - December 6, 2010
I too like Beachy more than Minor
I think Minor could turn into a stud or be a complete flop. Beachy I think will for sure be a very solid starter his whole career
KINGSLYTUT - December 6, 2010
minor over beachy
farreasy - December 6, 2010
Does Cain project to hit well enough to play LF?...
he can be insurance in case Schafer’s wrist isn’t back, or if he is, form one hellafied defensive OF with JS and JH.
Mr. Sanchez - December 6, 2010
I think Schafer
SUX!! I think he was over-hyped and I don’t like his mental make-up. I don’t think he’ll ever see any more SIGNIFICANT playing time. I see him as a younder McLouth. That may be unpopular, but he’s never really impressed me other than Opening Day two years ago.
coachrob - December 6, 2010
So he impressed you...
But you’re writing him off even though he’s only played in three major league games healthy since his debut, which was one of those days??
Tough crowd.
-C
cthabeerman - December 6, 2010
but he has been horrible ever since then…and there’s the whole HGH thing, where there is absolutely no credible evidence, even according to MLB, that he ever took HGH
all the signs point to him being a horrible baseball player and a horrible person. I hate people who’s sole purpose in life to work their ass off every single day and are confident in their abilities.
I may be acting tough, but its because of your self admitted reasons for disliking Schafer. There are reasons to dislike him. Traditionally he struggles against lefties. He doesn’t have an extensive track record of success in the minors (he had one great year and one above half year, and then an amazing spring where the entire FO raved about how good he was, but he did have struggled before that and after his suspension).
He is like McLouth, except he is a better athlete and has a better eye and is a much superior defender. The scouts said he could have been playing CF as early as late 2007, but he hadn’t progressed offensively yet.
Swo12bv - December 6, 2010
So, why did you emphasize “significant”?
justincredubil02 - December 7, 2010
younger McLouth
Would be OK for me, cheap CF with good D who can hit about .260 and near 20 HR are pretty rare
someguy1 - December 7, 2010
We could get way more for Minor than a going-to-be-25 year old 4th outfielder with a sub .800 minor league OPS. No thanks. I’d deal Beachy for him, but not JJ or Minor.
roberty - December 6, 2010
Gotta love that name too.
Chipper Pwns - December 6, 2010
I would do Beachy for Cain straight up. If Mclouth fails, then its his turn
Braves24 - December 6, 2010
yeah i agree with you on that, plus when medlen returns sometime next yr he will add another starter. so good bye beachy
farreasy - December 6, 2010
Or good-bye Lowe, or Jurrjens.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
hell no, no way we give up one of them for someone like cain.
farreasy - December 6, 2010
I thought you were talking about next year?
And yes, we could trade one of those guys for a 4th OF and others.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
I wouldn’t trade JJ for Cain
Braves24 - December 6, 2010
I thought you were talking about next year?
And yes, we could trade one of those guys for a 4th OF and others.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
Good bye Lowe would be ideal
Braves24 - December 6, 2010
Why dont...
we just sign Carlos Gomez,and keep all these guys? Does Cain have more upside?
mikie baseball - December 6, 2010
Yes.
Cain’s upside involves an OBP over .300.
cavebird - December 6, 2010
Wasn't...
Gomez, a big piece of the deal that sent Santana to the Mets? Somebody saw something a few years back.
mikie baseball - December 6, 2010
Yes.
They saw lots of tools. The skills, however, have not developed.
cavebird - December 6, 2010
i mean yeah…people saw something in lastings milledge too…sometimes things dont pan out…
forgotten_glory - December 6, 2010
That is true..
for sure. That the Twins gave up on him is a concern,but Macha is a horrible manager in my view. Between that ,and an injury ,last year was a lost season for Carlos. Again , he is cheap,and 25,and very very fast.
mikie baseball - December 6, 2010
None of these skills are worth anything if you can’t reach first base.
kauf67 - December 6, 2010
Because the Brewers have his rights?
pretty easy answer there bub. You can’t sign someone else’s player, and the Brewers tendered Gomez a contract.
Mr. Sanchez - December 6, 2010
well it would have to be lowe, i still think jurrjens is a good pitcher, if we trade him we should atleast get a above avg outfielder in return i think.
farreasy - December 6, 2010
i think gomez plays great defense. just can’t really swing the bat, but he does have decent speed.
farreasy - December 6, 2010
Andruw plays D too
and can still swing the bat, why not him?
someguy1 - December 6, 2010
Andruw can swing the bat...
making contact is a whole other matter.
TBuzz - December 6, 2010
.230 last year
someguy1 - December 6, 2010
Better than McLouth actually, but he’s not the masher he used to be and with the makeup of our lineup I would hope our supporting players had a better OBP…
TBuzz - December 6, 2010
19 HR last year in 300 AB
someguy1 - December 6, 2010
and Gomez OBP was .298
Andruw’s was .341
someguy1 - December 6, 2010
I am all for Andruw, but...
…I really doubt it happens.
cavebird - December 6, 2010
I know
Still campaigning though. It really just doesn’t make sense not too, unless we get some young really awesome CF like Rasmus instead. All the trades for players like Cain involve us giving up prospects, when any number of FA signings will do, such as Podsednik, Murton, Andruw, etc. of which Andruw’s the best fit (IMO).
Save the prospects to deal for Greinke!
someguy1 - December 6, 2010
* not to
damn
someguy1 - December 6, 2010
Yep .298...
and finished at the ripe old age of 25.Look, the kid has talent. Not sure if he will be a good hitter or not, but it is worth a shot. His upside is pretty big from what I see. 4 years ago, no one wanted Werth. If you are not going to pay the bucks for the big free agents , you have to take a shot on guys like this.
mikie baseball - December 6, 2010
He's a 4th OF with potential
But I think Andruw is a better fit for 2011. I think Gomez is a good talent and I’d welcome the addition, but I’m making the case that Andruw’s better for next year.
I do see how signing him might be better long term for depth and extra insurace for Schafer moving forward.
Also, I wasn’t attempting to belittle the kid’s talent by pointing out his low OBP, just making rebuttals for the excuses against Andruw.
They really all come down to he is slow, old, washed up, but that isn’t the case. Not trying to drag Gomez through the mud, just standing up for Andruw.
someguy1 - December 6, 2010
I see that...
and I am certainly not picking a fight here for sure.Its just that a number like 298 for a 25 year old kid, does not predict the future at every turn. Sometimes you have to look at the instincts. I loved Andruw. The best defensive outfielder I have ever seen,but he simply cant hit. I think Gomez can be a pretty good gap to gap hitter and runs like a deer.
mikie baseball - December 6, 2010
Andruw, way below his previous level...
…was still light-years better at the plate than Gomez in 2010. Until Gomez learns to control the strike zone, he will remain a flop.
cavebird - December 6, 2010
Light years?
Andruw had a .312 OBP as a 24 year old.I do agree that Gomez needs to control the strike zone better.Again, there are quite a few players who do that,but they all cost tons of monies.As I have said before, at least we get a centerfielder who strikes from the righthand side of the plate instead of the lefthand side as we havw seen the past 2 years.In addition, we don’t have to give up anything to get that. Gomez is ahead of Cain in terms of the lesrning process and a better player in my view.There is no down side
mikie baseball - December 6, 2010
If the debate is Gomez v. Cain via trade, I vote Gomez.
someguy1 - December 6, 2010
sarcasm?
kauf67 - December 6, 2010
nope.
Not that Gomez is better than Cain, I just don’t see the point in trading value for a 4th OF, when we could sign a cheap FA
someguy1 - December 7, 2010
Um...
you do understand that for Gomez or Cain, we’re having to trade value to the Brewers, right? Those two players are both under the Brewers control, and expected to be the competition for their starting CF spot in the spring.
Mr. Sanchez - December 7, 2010
Comparing their 24-year old seasons is silly.
Since we can’t sign Andruw as a 24-year old. Besides, if you actually compared their 24-year old seasons, it is Andruw in a cake walk:
Andruw at 24: .251/.312/.461, best defense in a generation.
(and had an age 23 season of .303/..366/.541)
Gomez at 24: .247/.298/.357, good defense, never has had a season with an OPS over .657.
No real comparison at all, and like I said a pointless comparison, but not one you want to make.
cavebird - December 6, 2010
So in your...
view. A 24 year old who gets on base 156 times in a 500PA season,is materially better at that point in their developement than a guy who gets on base 149 times for the same number of PA’s. The difference in BA isn’t detectable either. Yes, Andruw ran into a fastball more frequently,so his slugging percentage was higher.Not trying to compare the 2 players at all, but one cant degrade one hitter for a 298 OBP at the age of 24,and then claim it is a cake walk comparison for a 312OBP. That is one extra walk per month.My error was in thinking Gomez was non tendered.
mikie baseball - December 7, 2010
It is also a guy's career low vs. another's career high...
.312 is a low point in the early part of Andruw’s career. That .298 is the best Gomez has ever done, and it’s raised significantly by a final month where his obp was .395, in 37 at bats, in large part due to a .467 babip.
This obsession with a guy who 3 times has been given a starting CF job, and 3 times has lost it because of how poorly he played at the plate, and isn’t even available is unreal. It’s like someone spits out a name early in the offseason, and half the board becomes fixated on that name despite how horribly they’ve played in their career AND their lack of availability.
Mr. Sanchez - December 7, 2010
Yeah, it's a cakewalk.
As Sanchez noted, you compared one player’s low (Andruw’s) with the other player’s high (Gomez’s). Furthermore, even in that comparison, Andruw’s low point was better than Gomez’s high point (.312-.298). Oh, and “Andruw ran into a fastball more often so his slugging percentage is higher” is a bit of a deceptive way to say that Andruw hit 34 HR’s as a 24 year old while Gomez hit 7 HR’s, no? Basically, one had the higher OBP (despite it being his worst year) and had real power, while the other in his best year had the lower OBP and little power. Where’s the comparison again?
cavebird - December 7, 2010
If simply "running into a fastball..."
creates a difference of 27 HR, let’s find us some more fastball hitters and trade all our fastball pitchers within the division.
I’ll map it out for you…
1) Sign fastball hitters
2) Trade fasteball pitchers within division (preferably for fastball hitters)
3) …
4) DINGERZ!!
-C
cthabeerman - December 7, 2010
You keep leaving out the underwear...
does the C stand for commando?
Mr. Sanchez - December 7, 2010
My name...
begins with a C.
The handle derives from my college days, where I was an English/Mass Comm major, doing print media and a bit of radio, along with some creative writing work on the English side.
I had a weekly radio segment reviewing craft beers available at the local liquor store (town of 5k w/ 1k students). As you can imagine, there wasn’t much selection, but I ended up getting six packs for free by the end. The store owner would also order me anything I wanted that he could get his hands on, so that was a bonus.
That’s pretty much the whole story of -C and cthabeerman. It’s still my online alias everywhere, since it’s better to keep your personal life shielded from your employers (tho I was hired by my best friend about 10 months back, so that theory is a bit outdated for me personally).
-C
cthabeerman - December 7, 2010
Cool story Hansel...
(seriously nice story though). Also, I’m guessing you misunderstood the underpants joke. I wasn’t being serious. See, 1st step is the underpants. Then ???, followed by Profits!
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/151040/the-underpants-business
[I also hope you get that I’m joking when I claim “imposter” on posts where you fail to add the -C]
Mr. Sanchez - December 7, 2010
Can be a good hitter, maybe
but I don’t think by next year its feasible. The opinion that Andruw isn’t a good hitter is what I am really trying to address here. A vote for Andruw comes off as sentimental, but it’s really just the best move IMO, with the bonus of being sentimental. He’s never hit for average but looking at his last two years as a 4th OF/backup, it’s clear that he can still hit.
Add to that, that he’ll likely platoon PH with Hinske and not see many sliders from RHP and it’s even more attractive.
Basically, the upside I see with Gomez is OF depth going forward (beyond 2011). I still think signing Andruw at 3.5M for 2 years to be a 4th OF will be a better fit until we can fill CF from our own org. depth.
Signing a potential talent like Gomez (Murton also mentioned, who I like)is an expensive way to address our lack of depth in the farm IMO, but it would address a clear need. I prefer to wait on Schafer and put our best options on the field for 2011.
I like the fresh perspective though. It’s funny that this is in the same thread as the argument of Gonzo v. Escobar.
someguy1 - December 6, 2010
Funny,
Prior to 2009 I wanted Andruw back as well.I just think it is a step backward,at this point.Gomez puts a little step into an offense,that last year sat back and waited for 3 singles or the 3 run HR.I actually think Gomez is a potential big time sleeper given the opportunity to play everyday,and an improved control of the strike zone.The down side to him is the same as Esco, which is clubhouse harmony. The thing is, with Freddy and Uggla being no nonsense guys,it might help a kid like Gomez reach his potential faster. Worst case, he is gone in a year,and he swipes 25 bags.
mikie baseball - December 6, 2010
So you’d rather have Gomez as our 4th OF for next year than Andruw? I don’t see it.
I can see the value of Gomez’ potential and our lack of depth at CF, but Andruw is definitely the better fit for the 2011 team. Agree to disagree, I guess.
It seems like you don’t want Andruw for sentimental reasons, instead of concerns over his production. If it’s possible to sign Gomez to a minor league deal, that seems like the best option to me.
To address your scenario, Andruw’s ceiling is to hit .250/30 HR/15 SB and play good defense for the next several years. Worst case scenario, he hits some clutch HR and is gone in a year. I’d rather have that than the SB in 2011, and I’d rather have his potential (at a similar price) than Gomez’.
someguy1 - December 6, 2010
I was...
looking to catch someone who might play everyday.Time will tell if what I think I see is correct. Again, I loved Andruw, but never thought he was a very good hitter.It pained me to watch him strikeout 5 times in one game against mediocore pitching.The Braves need to move forward.(but I would root like crazy for AJ at every at bat,if he did resign).
mikie baseball - December 7, 2010
The problem with Gomez....
He isn’t any good. Not even 4th OF good. Unfortunately, I have been able to watch him quite a bit due to all the transplants at work(gotta get back to the hotel early when ya work on the road if ya wanna control the remote!.) He just isn’t good.
jdmarine - December 7, 2010
If the strikeouts are the problem, why do you want Gomez?
Gomez career K percentage: 23.9%
Andruw: 22.5%
That’s Gomez’s big problem, for a guy lacking power, he doesn’t make nearly enough contact.
cavebird - December 7, 2010
So....where did all the rumors go? It's been dead for more than an hour now.
Scott Coleman - December 6, 2010
andruw is not a great defender anymore i think, he’s more like a DH. Don’t get me wrong he is one of my favs,but i just don’t see that happening.
farreasy - December 6, 2010
Still got the instincts
and some speed. He never was a speedster anyway.
He stole 9 bases in a half season last year.
Also hit 19 HR.
someguy1 - December 6, 2010
He is not a great defender anymore, you are right.
But he can still play an average CF, let alone LF.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
He's still above-average in left...
…and could be above-average in center. Hard to say, since he hasn’t played center (for any real amount of time) since his disasterous injury plagued fat year in Los Angeles. And even that year he was an average defensive centerfielder.
As for Andruw not being great; well, having to live up to the greatness that he previously had is impossible for pretty much anyone. Those days are definitely long gone.
cavebird - December 6, 2010
I’m seeing all these Beachy, Minor, or Jurrjens for Cain comments. I think I would puke if we traded one of these guys for Cain.
bwellnjonesco - December 6, 2010
At some point we need to cut them loose...
We have 8 bonafide young SP’s and prospects after Huddy and DLowe…
TBuzz - December 6, 2010
I’m all for trading from our pitching surplus, but Cain isn’t the answer. We have Schafer, Matt Young, Willie Cabrera, and Yasser Gomez that could contribute as 4th outfield types. Several free agents could fit as well. As far as 2012 goes…we can worry about that later. I would atleast wait and see what ST looks like..
bwellnjonesco - December 6, 2010 via mobile
Uggla is a power replacement
D. Uggla is going to be an ATL Brave for the next 4-5 yrs after the 2011 season, I just don’t like articles or post that kinda make it seem like he is going to walk after one season. Chipper, Mclouth, are gone after 2011 freeing up $17-18 million plus if D. Lowe has an All-star season or even a decent to good one similar to the way he finished the 2010 season then he is going to be traded for peak value.
So we will have money to retain Uggla plus Delgado, Teheran etc… should be ready for the starting rotation in 2011 I pray anyways.
Holty_Panthers_Fan - December 6, 2010
I think Uggla should walk after 2011...
…because I think that is what is best for the Braves. I would not want to offer Uggla more than he refused from the Marlins. I think his best value for the Braves is one good season and two draft picks. As for freeing up money, McLouth will be gone after 2011, but Chipper won’t; his contract runs through 2012 and I don’t think he’ll retire.
cavebird - December 6, 2010
He’s not going to get anything close to Werth money. But to be honest he is worth around the $13MM-$15MM range per year I think…
TBuzz - December 6, 2010
Given his age...
…I wouldn’t want us to give him $13-15 million a year for 4 or 5 seasons.
cavebird - December 6, 2010
And his defense
He can’t expect to be paid like a top 2nd baseman when his defense isn’t anywhere near a top 2nd baseman….His offense is great, and I can’t wait for it to be on display every night, but his defense has got to take a couple Million away, I personally think the $10-$12 million number is very fair for him.
KJDH2154 - December 6, 2010
But somebody will give it to him...
…look at the contracts being given out this offseason. That’s why I’d rather just take the draft picks. Now, if he’ll sign for $10-12 million for 4 years, then it seems reasonable, but he refused that offer from the Marlins already.
cavebird - December 7, 2010
Question is, how much of that was because of the part in bold?
Mr. Sanchez - December 7, 2010
I don't know.
If we extend him at 4/$48, I’d be perfectly fine with that. If it is 5/$65 I would not be so happy.
cavebird - December 7, 2010
What he wanted from the Marlins
was basically a big FU to the franchise, not totally serious demand, at least if you believe the rumors and grumblings around baseball. I suspect he’ll be able to demand $12M/Year over 5, but won’t make top tier money cause of his defensive shortcomings.
MartinMcFly - December 6, 2010
what about schafer
i hope he comes to camp and blows everyone away, that would be awsome!!!
farreasy - December 6, 2010
I hope so too, but coming off yet another serious injury makes me think this is more of a pipe dream for 2011.
justincredubil02 - December 6, 2010
Just writing off the DOB article then?
Makes it sound like he’s committed to conditioning and going to be 100% for spring training.
MartinMcFly - December 6, 2010
He will have not played a game in nearly a year – I’ll find it hard to believe that he will be MLB ready by April.
justincredubil02 - December 7, 2010
Because there's now a year between....
August (when he last played a game), and March when he’ll be playing spring training games?
What kind of crazy calenders do y’all have on the other side of the planet?
Mr. Sanchez - December 7, 2010
Ridicuous ones. It’s the year 1389 here.
justincredubil02 - December 7, 2010
All arguments aside...
I laffed.
-C
cthabeerman - December 7, 2010
We can all hope.
It is unlikely, and even with a good spring, I think we would send him to AAA to get full time AB’s at the start of the season unless he beats out McLouth for the starting gig.
cavebird - December 7, 2010
And I wholeheartedly agree with you...
I was just pointing out how justin once again ignores all facts and reality by claiming Schafer wouldn’t have “played a game in nearly a year”.
Mr. Sanchez - December 7, 2010
8 months…I stand corrected. 3/4 of a year is not nearly a year.
justincredubil02 - December 7, 2010
Considering he was playing until mid-late August...
other than the month of September, how is that different from every player on a non-playoff team, or any minor leaguer who wasn’t called up after rosters expanded?
I’ll save you the trouble and answer the rhetorical question; it doesn’t. But hey, OBP FTW! And hanging it up around the end of August means you miss almost a whole year, FTW!
Mr. Sanchez - December 7, 2010
You also can't count...
his last game was in August. From DOB’s report, it’d take another injury to keep him out from playing spring training games in March. That’s a span of 6 months, and again, not much more than the time off taken by a whole lot of others who were either injured for the last month of the season, or were a minor leaguer who isn’t playing winter ball since their season ends only a week or two after Schafer shut it down.
Mr. Sanchez - December 7, 2010
On the other hand...
…Schafer was playing hurt and intermittently missing time last year. I would think it would take a little bit of time to get his timing back when healthy. I could be wrong, but even then, unless we are giving him a substantial amount of starts from the start of the season, he would be better off in AAA.
cavebird - December 7, 2010
I don't disagree...
that doesn’t change the fact that justin can’t count.
Mr. Sanchez - December 7, 2010
he didnt have another serious injury…he is still rehabbing tyhe original injuyr…he went through the growing pains of a wrist surgeyr…he fought through the scar tissue and is apparently healthy now.
Swo12bv - December 6, 2010
well that's great but
I really don’t see him up until next year unless he goes crazy in the minors
Braves24 - December 6, 2010
I dont want him up. I want him healthy and playing baseball somewhere for the Braves
Swo12bv - December 6, 2010
And probably needs some regular rest early in the season...
considering how little he’s played the last 3 seasons.
Mr. Sanchez - December 6, 2010
I was begging for a Jurrjens for Cain and Brett Lawrie swap a month ago. Too bad Lawrie got dealt for Marcum instead
jeg - December 6, 2010
i remember his 1st ever MLB hit was again Braves
if i am not wrong, it was a double
joshant - December 6, 2010
Per MLBTR, Cain is not being shopped, just listening to offers.
king of games - December 6, 2010
We need a separate forum
Just to perpetually argue about the Escobar trade.
Sam Jethroe - December 6, 2010
lol
seems this way…
forgotten_glory - December 6, 2010
I am tired of this arguement...
The bottom line is that Bobby didn’t want him on the team anymore. Honestly, I think he needed a change of scenery as well. I do think he will eventually be one of the better SS in the league, he isn’t even in my Top 5 right now though. I say good luck to him, but also, I’m glad he is gone. It was really getting tiresome watching the attitude flare ups. Although, he did have some spectacular moments.
jdmarine - December 6, 2010
Blame Chopaholic...
He started it, and promptly got out of the way.
-C
cthabeerman - December 6, 2010
lol
jdmarine - December 6, 2010
I wasn't kidding...
He literally has one comment in the thread, the one that sparked it all.
-C
cthabeerman - December 6, 2010
yea, i saw that....
TC can be such an emotional place at times! Must be the holidays! hehe
jdmarine - December 6, 2010
Eh...
I was a big Yunel supporter, when he was here. I don’t really get what all the whining about trading him is about, so I’ll support the guy who IS still playing here instead.
Yunel’s performance as a whole last season was abysmal, which was the final straw in his Atlanta chapter. He was the cause of too many issues. It happens. He’s done a little better in spots during his Toronto stint, but he’s not put it together like a few seem to think he will.
Initially, I wished him the best, but I realize that’s a bad plan, because it only increases the whining…so now I root for him to crash and burn, just to shut up justin and the rest of the whiners.
-C
cthabeerman - December 6, 2010
Like a rosterbation thread though...
just put all done trade bitching in one spot. Tex, JD Drew, Yunel, Kenny Lofton, Len Barker, Klesko, bitch to your hearts content.
Mr. Sanchez - December 6, 2010
DUDE! WTF!!!!
now someone is gonna whine about one of those trades.
Swo12bv - December 6, 2010
I'll start, this is the problem I had with Tex.....
Mr. Sanchez - December 6, 2010
you son of a bit……
Swo12bv - December 6, 2010
Now Drew, that one didn’t work out so bad imo, but the Klesko deal, wooooooooooo buddy, you gonna be here a while cause this won’t be quick….
Mr. Sanchez - December 6, 2010
TWSS
Swo12bv - December 6, 2010
lol
jdmarine - December 6, 2010
hit and run…dang.
justincredubil02 - December 7, 2010
ha
jdmarine - December 7, 2010
One thing to consider, there have always been concerns, even before the wrist injury, that JS wouldn’t be able to hit LHP. Cain could provide a nice affordable platoon partner for Weapon X for years.
Lennox - December 6, 2010
PLEASE DO IT!
He can be a back-up to start the year and if McLouth sucks he can play(so he’ll likely be starting rather soon haha)
Minor- Cain and Scooter Gennett(IF prospect)…I say trade Minor because he’d bring back another prospect than Beachy and personally i like Beachy more than Minor, but most MLB teams likely prefer Minor on potential
KINGSLYTUT - December 6, 2010
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