There is a lot of "shock and awe" going around the NL East today as people wake up to the news that the Philadelphia Phillies have signed free agent ace Cliff Lee, making him their third player earning more than $20 million a year. Three $20 million players on one team! Including those three they have a total of five players making at least $15 million a year. Compare that to the Atlanta Braves, who have just one player making $15 million or more in 2011.
How dare they spend that much, right? That's just not fair. These are typical reactions, and part of the five stages of grief. But the Phillies are just doing what the Braves did throughout the 1990's and early 2000's -- spend to win. Particularly, outspend your opponents.
I threw together a quick Excel graph to illustrate this point. The dots in the lines represent NL East Pennants.
But it's not just about spending money. It's about spending money in the right places, and on the right players. Here is the same chart with the Mets added in:
They've been spending, and spending a lot more than the Braves and the Phillies (until last year). So the takeaway from this should be that outspending your opponents doesn't guarantee Pennants, but it certainly helps.
I also take away from this that while the Braves used to hold a clear advantage over the Phillies when it came to writing checks to players, that advantage is now a disadvantage, and is going in the wrong direction. While a team may be able to luck into some Wild Cards and Pennants every few years with a nominal payroll, the only way to dominate for a long time is to shell out the Benjamins.
Real lesson here is the Braves need a new owner, one that will (once again) spend more money on payroll.
2 recs | 168 comments
Being outspent nearly 2 to 1 has to put our team at a serious competative disadvantage.
fandave - December 14, 2010
It would if our front office wasn’t one of the best in baseball.
king of games - December 14, 2010
This.
Pavy848 - December 14, 2010
LolMets
That second graph made me feel a little better.
vooodooo - December 14, 2010
For all the money the Phillies just spent...
their bullpen is still a house of cards being currently held together by Brad Lidge’s ability to locate his breaking ball.
TBuzz - December 14, 2010
With Halladay and Lee out there, he may be able to start scheduling golf outings. Their bullpen just got a lot better since they won’t have to pitch nearly as often.
One point related to the roster’s salary level: With this signing, the Phils are now up to the Luxury Tax Level. Right now, I heard they are around $170m – with Blanton on the payroll, and after considering Houston’s portion of Oswalt’s contract. That’s just a staggering increase and makes the graphs all the more relevant.
carpengui - December 14, 2010
That is an issue until you think about it
They’re going to have to pitch like 40 innings all next season with that rotation.
was385 - December 14, 2010
If that’s the case the starters will all be jelly by the playoffs.
king of games - December 14, 2010
I prefer the wild card anyway
Yakker - December 14, 2010
While their bullpen is still in relative shambles, if they only have to get 10 innings out of their pen every time through the rotation then they will not have a problem. This really hurt us because not only does it in a way negate the deficiencies in their pen, it also allows them to be a little more strict on Halladay, Oswalt and Hamels pitch counts because they know that the guy going out on day 4 is just as good if not better…
michaelcooksey - December 14, 2010
How much is the Nationals payroll?
do_or_dye - December 14, 2010
Not a lot
Since 2005, their average payroll has been $55.1M. So at least their marginal records are reflected in their lack of spending.
royhobbs - December 14, 2010
What's even more obscene....
The padre’s payroll.
At the beginning of the offseason, they didn’t have a single player on a contract. All were either on rookie contracts or arbitration eligible. It’s going to be ridiculous to see how little them and the Marlin’s spend compared to the Yankees & Phillies.
garlick - December 14, 2010
The Padres payroll is a joke.
And it is MLB’s fault. They allowed the current ownership to by the Padres on a payment plan, meaning they have to gut payroll to make the money to pay off the purchase of the team. Never should have been allowed to happen.
cavebird - December 15, 2010
My last comment goes here better, anyway
For some reason, baseball owners seem to think that investing into their club is different from people who invest in property, invest in cars, or invest in business. The basic procedure for investing is that the investor takes a hit, and hopes that the investment is eventually repaid, and ultimately profited upon.
The Braves are trying to, and probably doing an adequate job of generating revenue on a strict payroll budget – they invested minimally, with boundaries, got 91 wins out of their squad while managing to gain the interest of a good chunk of fair-weathered Atlantans who improved the attendance throughout 2010. Attendance leads to potential food, parking, merchandise dollars, which ultimately leads to more profit. Capitalizing on this, the Braves are expected to raise ticket costs a little bit in 2011, with hopes of making more money, but probably keeping payroll relatively the same.
The Phillies are more or less exceeding their expected payroll, but they’re already a championship-caliber club to begin with, with a large majority of the Philadelphia fairweathers already sold on the team. Signing Lee gives fans more reason (read: demand) to want to be a part of a projected championship season. Despite the fact that the budget was stretched further and "they spent more," the dollar return in ticket sales, food, parking, merchandise, etc is simply going to be that much greater from the massive demand for their brand that they’ve created by investing in it. Phillies season tickets have a waiting list; if money weren’t an issue, I could call the Braves right now and get season tickets in any section of Turner Field I wanted to.
The bottom line is that the Phillies will be playing with house money a lot sooner than the Braves will be, on the current paths. Atlanta is an extremely fair weather city, and it would be a pretty forgone conclusion that the fans would show if the team bought components like Cliff Lee that could potentially contribute greatly to a championship campaign. Sure, Liberty would take a huge hit in order to make it happen, but if the wins begin to pile up, it’ll all take care of itself in the end. Simply put, the Braves need to invest into the team first, and not wait for the fairweathers to just show up on a whim.
I understand and can appreciate the financial chess battles in baseball, and it’s always a treat to see a Rays or Padres have success on minimal spending, but I never once complained during the Ted Turner days
royhobbs - December 14, 2010
Your a part time Economist too?
bwellnjonesco - December 14, 2010
Yeah but...
do we need to spend money indiscriminately and without any value-added as the Yankees have shown to do with Kevin Brown, Randy Johnson, and now Derek Jeter?
TBuzz - December 14, 2010
Of course not
As gondeee mentioned, there’s a big difference between spending/investing money, and spending/investing money stupidly. How many times since Liberty Media acquired the Braves have logical free-agent options been available, but been completely ignored, and deemed not even worth rosterbating about because of the financial restraints that Liberty had on the team?
My years might be a bit off, and the hindsight might not be so pretty, but the point remains, when Grandersons, Swishers and Abreus, the Braves pick up Garret f*cking Anderson. Sabathias, Harens, and Lackeys hit the market, and the Braves pick up Derek Lowe and Kenshin Kawakami. Adam Dunn is available, and the team picks up Troy Glaus. The org’s mentality on free agents almost sound similar to their drafting philosophy, which is to essentially ignore anyone who isn’t signable, and not even try, and stick with “safer” picks. Believe me, I’d feel a little more optimistic about the organization if they missed out all these guys, but at least tried, to give the fans impression that they’re willing to take risks.
royhobbs - December 14, 2010
royhobbs speaks for me.
fandave - December 14, 2010
royhobbs
just convinced me to lower my vote on the Fan Confidence Poll from an 8 to a 7.
adc62 - December 14, 2010
Well hey
As long as you’re being honest
royhobbs - December 14, 2010
RoyHobbs cuts to the chase
His posts are well thought out and very intelligent. I wish Wren had more $$ to work with, what he does with a comparably small budget is good enough for me. When Chipper went down, he went and got Lee, when Schafer went down, he went and got McLouth, when the pitching staff was bare threads, he went and got Lowe, Vazquez and KK. Not everything works out. He’s buying used cars instead of showroom models.
When the much older Phillies start breaking down to injuries and the Braves keep right on trucking, I’ll be even more glad I’m a Braves fan. My confidense isn’t dropping.
bighop - December 14, 2010
this
my confidense might drop, but my confidence will not drop
Braves24 - December 14, 2010
Sorry
I have misspelled that one more than once
bighop - December 14, 2010
This string of posts reminds me of Ricky Henderson.
RoyHobbs is gonna steal 200 bases this year. Nobody can throw RoyHobbs out. RoyHobbs is the fastest man alive.
king of games - December 14, 2010
Don't forget
I stand naked in front of a mirror and remind myself that I’m the greatest over and over again, while not trying to stare at the toe I lost from frostbite in the summer from falling asleep with the icepack on my foot.
royhobbs - December 14, 2010
Doesn’t everybody?
king of games - December 14, 2010
Is it a skinny mirror like at a fun house...
or do you put two side by side for a complete view of your 523 pounds?
Mr. Sanchez - December 14, 2010
no, sire, you are the self-proclaimed king of games and we all are truly bleesed by your esteemed presence on our meek and humble board.
fandave - December 14, 2010
But why would you waste time and energy trying to sign players that aren’t obtainable for your team. Doing that could lead you to miss out on guys who you know you can sign and are still capable players. And no that doesn’t include GF Anderson, but you can see my point.
JFP - December 14, 2010
Players are very much aware
Of their true value and perceived want from potential teams, and regardless of what they say to the media. It never hurts a team to have multiple choices for a position, and it’s certainly not against the law to pursue multiple targets. Sure, it’s gotta be flattering to be a team’s #1 choice, but in the event that they are a team’s #2 or 3 choice, they should just be glad that they’re still wanted, and likely going to be employed the next season.
An example would be the Nationals two seasons ago heavily pursuing Orlando Hudson; it fell through, but within two days, they signed Adam Kennedy, all because they were negotiating with him at the same time the whole time.
royhobbs - December 14, 2010
I apologize that I wasn’t more direct with what I was saying. I was thinking more along the lines of missing on other players because you were waiting on certain guys to make decisions. Like the Rangers and Yankees are now facing after the Lee failure.
JFP - December 14, 2010
I have to agree here, unfortunately
Everytime I watched a Phillies home game (vs. the Braves at least), it was packed with fans all wearing pricey merchandise. They had 100 straight sell out games in July & August. Even at Braves games with absolutely beautiful weather I repeatedly saw Turner field looking about half full. It’s much easier to spend when you know you have supportive fans. I can’t really put the blame on Liberty media here.
bloodgimp - December 14, 2010
I agree as well....
to a certain extent. Philly is going through the same thing that ATL went through in the 90’s. The Braves were the same way back then. New stadium, playoffs every year, shot at the WS, players locked up for a long time, great pitching staff, etc. However, you have to remember the 80’s as well. They were still the Braves, though most of the time you might have wished they weren’t.
I have always said you have to spend money in baseball (though some baseball common sense is needed) in order to win. Sure, there are limits, however if you are winning, they will come (and spend). I think that is some of the problem. The profile players are older now, in the final parts of their career (those that are still left). The winning hasn’t let to a slew of championships, though it has led to many playoff appearances. However, when the same things happen over and over again, the casual fan gets disinterested. You can watch it on t.v., and it costs a lot less, especially right now.
I live in TX, in the Dallas/Fort Worth area. The only game I went to this year, was Game 5 of the WS — as far as the Rangers are concerned. I am a huge baseball fan, and I do like the Rangers to a certain extent. I just don’t have the money to go see the games. The money I do have, I spend on MLBEI on DirecTV, in order to have the chance to watch my brother play baseball. I did go to STL for a series, plus one series in L.A., plus the series in HOU last year. So, my situation is a little different, though I would love to go to more games, just of the local team.
elsid - December 14, 2010
The same logic applies to the Hawks.
You have to spend money to get Atlanta fans to return the favor.
mrHonline - December 14, 2010
Winning helps too
A few years ago, I turned down free fifth floor Hawks/Knicks tickets, and laughed at how hard it was to give them away.
royhobbs - December 14, 2010
wait atlanta has a basketball team?
Creek Johnson - December 14, 2010
Been a playoff team for three consecutive seasons.
Atlanta fans are tough buyers.
mrHonline - December 14, 2010
I disagree with royhobbs.
Sorry, I don’t think the conclusion is correct. The problem is not fairweather fans, the problem is that Atlanta and Georgia is just not baseball territory. Football is king here, much more so than in the northeast. And there really isn’t anything that the Braves can do about that. Atlanta is a huge city, and the Braves have a pretty extensive market to themselves with Georgia, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Alabama (at least) all being Braves territory. And yet, we cannot generate the revenue streams that the Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, and Phillies can because the games don’t get the same ratings and the fans don’t show up at games as much.
Winning will help the attendance and ratings, but not by as much as royhobbs suggests. We won repeatedly for many years. Hell for more years than any other team in any major American sport has won a division title. And yet, except for the first few years, attendance was not what the Phillies have had the past few years. Hell, I remember being in a half-empty stadium for a first-round playoff game more than once. Winning isn’t going to change that.
Bottom line: the Braves will never be able to sustain the high payrolls of northeastern teams unless we have an owner who is not concerned about making a profit. It does put us at a competitive disadvantage, but we can make up for that in scouting and drafting if we do it right.
(And for the record, I am not a part-time economist, but I do have an economics degree.)
cavebird - December 15, 2010
I think Georgia likes baseball just fine...
great summer weather, we produce a ton of baseball talent.
IYAM, the primary problem is the transportation issue. If MARTA was as public transportation should be, making it easy for people to get from where they live to where they work and are entertained, we could draw a lot more. If MARTA made it easier for people to come down from Cobb, from Gwinnett, from Cherokee, North Fulton, Forsyth, Henry, etc, I think that would do wonders for attendance.
Mr. Sanchez - December 15, 2010
Fair points
See, my idea is that the key to profit is tapping into, and taking hold of the fairweathers. Big and diehard fans are almost a given to give whatever they can to the team, but if a team can get a grasp of the money of the ambivalent, on a regular basis, then there is some genuine profit to be made. It’s a challenge to try and turn Turner Field into a place that people would want to select as their venue of time-wasting, but I don’t think it’s impossible, but it does require a lot of effort, marketing (guerilla and conventional) and of course, fronted money.
I’m not a fan of the notion that Georgia is a football territory, so nothing else can succeed to that magnitude. Texas also has the popular stigma that football is king, but yet somehow Mark Cuban managed to get the Cowboy football crazy city of Dallas to buy into Mavericks basketball, and the team has been fairly competent over the last decade subsequently. It took a lot of guerilla marketing, and a lot of investments on his part to bring in talent, but he got people to show up to the American Airlines center, they realized that Mavs basketball wasn’t lame anymore, and they began to give back. I don’t happen to know the financials off the top of my head, but I’d like to assume that Cuban isn’t putting nearly as much of his own money into the Mavs these days as much as the team is paying for itself on its own steam. It’s not impossible to hook into a football market, but it does require dedicated time, effort, marketing, and money. The Braves are my team, and I love them to death, but off the top of my head, I can think of several ways they could have and could still market better.
The winning thing has been a curse and a blessing; I genuinely do think that fans did grow complacent, and as a result stopped showing up as often, which kind of led to a snowball effect, made worse by the poor 2008, and only really began picking itself back up with Heyward and a playoff berth. Unlike the Mavs, who sucked for decades, the Braves would need to win, and win for a while to get back all the complacent fans.
There’s no way the Braves could compete on the magnitude of Boston and New York, but to be able to come closer to what the Phillies are spending isn’t impossible. The team itself would need to generate more revenue to make the team a little more willing to open up their own wallets, and there are several conventional ways, and some unconventional ways that the team could capitalize on, but would require some investment from ownership to help out, which doesn’t seem to be the case with Liberty.
royhobbs - December 15, 2010
Can I also add
That although Atl is a big city, many of its citizens are from elsewhere. Many times, they bring their allegiances with them. That can have a huge impact on the ratio of fans:population.
Doghnut - December 15, 2010
LOLMets - I miss Omar already!
But I agree 100% – the Braves need an owner that cares about winning, not profits by slashing payroll like Liberty. Ah I miss Ted Turner.
DolphinNation - December 14, 2010
Everyone calm down.
The Phillies lost to the Giants this year with Halladay, Hamels, and Oswalt. The Giants beat Lee twice in the World Series. The Braves would have dominatded the Giants if we had just two of our 6 injured players. The seasons not over in December, baseball fans.
MayorofPonce - December 14, 2010
This
Lee is 32 and has a bad back that’s starting to affect his illustrious “pinpoint” control. Let them have him, Braves have Huddy, Hanson, Jurrjens, Lowe, Minor/Beachy. Not as good on paper, but definately competitive
HansonManCrush - December 14, 2010
who do you think is uncalm?
fandave - December 14, 2010
Me.
And a lot of other Braves fans. I hate to be “this guy,” but for the next 2-3 years, our hopes of a division title are pretty much fucked.
GouldisGold - December 14, 2010
Any idea what the average age is on the Phillies team? Besides the rookie Brown, is anybody besides Lee and Hamels under 30? I won’t be the least bit surprised if injuries eat them up the next 2-3 years.
Play the games, see what happens. I concede nothing to those bastards.
bighop - December 14, 2010
+1
HansonManCrush - December 14, 2010 via mobile
+1
The Devil Wears Prado - December 14, 2010
I'll see your +1s
and raise you +5
UMDBHIK - December 15, 2010
This...
There’s no reason to concede when your team is going to play some really good ball the next couple years. Anything can happen.
However, I’m already looking to 2013, when our full rotation of young guys is set to hit the field with Venters and Kimbrel firmly entrenched in the 8th and 9th innings. Freeman should be more than acclimated by then, Schafer will be back at full-strength, McCann and Prado will still be around, Uggla might be, and Heyward will be the 23 year-old monster that everyone pretends Justin Upton is.
The Phillies’ signing of Cliff Lee has absolutely no effect on how scary this team is going to be a couple years from now. If you think the competition for fifth starter is stout this season with Minor/Beachy/KK, just wait a couple years. We made the playoffs last season, and we haven’t even started our run yet.
-C
cthabeerman - December 14, 2010
Wow...
I just now realized that Heyward will only be 23 in 2013.
GouldisGold - December 14, 2010
+1
Braves24 - December 14, 2010
No homo...
But I just giggled a little bit thinking about the possibilities of J-Hey next year.
MayorofPonce - December 14, 2010
That’s exactly how I think. I love it during the season when I know all day long that we’re facing a teams Ace that night. Maybe I’m a glutton for punishment, but I’d rather see how we do against superior competition than sub-par.
vooodooo - December 14, 2010
Can someone give me Dan Uggla’s numbers against Lee?
MBL1 - December 14, 2010
0 hits, 1 BB in 3 PAs
Doghnut - December 14, 2010
10-10
with 10HR, 40RBI, plus he made him cry during a charity softball game
HansonManCrush - December 14, 2010
wow that batting avg must be huge!
Creek Johnson - December 14, 2010
awesome.
made me laugh out loud. well played.
toppleprone - December 14, 2010
A new TV deal
would help too. Losing the TBS contract really hurt. Yanks have YES, Red Sox have MESN or whatever it is, Rangers got a new deal, and Philly gets a boatload of $$ from their deal with Comcast and WPHL
HansonManCrush - December 14, 2010
Agree here too...
There is a channel on DirecTV called BRVS. Though, there is not jack on it, unless there happens to be a Braves game. It is cool to watch some of the shows from other cities, like a hot stove show. It would be cool to have a focus on the team.
MLB Network gets old show re-run and re-run of the same old thing.
elsid - December 14, 2010
BRVS isnt really a channel
Its just where DTV puts the Braves games.
Doghnut - December 14, 2010
Hence the need
for some sort of real channel. Splitting your games between 2-3 channels gets old, though many do it. Whereas, the ones making the most money have their own channels (i.e. MASN, YES, NESN, etc).
elsid - December 14, 2010
only when they're on Peachtree
otherwise it’s on 649 (sport south) or 646 (fox sports south)
AU_Jonesy - December 14, 2010
Yanks have
YESESPN, Red Sox haveMESN or whatever it isESPNFTFY
ROBravo - December 14, 2010
Sox = MESN
MASN = Nats/Os
Doghnut - December 14, 2010
God I fucked up the correction
Sox = NESN
Doghnut - December 14, 2010
TBS
constantly showing Braves games is what made me a fan. I can’t imagine the fanbase growth that did for all those years. I guess I should just be happy I didn’t choose the Cubs.
Chipper Pwns - December 14, 2010
through WGN
Chipper Pwns - December 14, 2010
I had the same fate too.
kp.atl - December 14, 2010
same here
and i live in ny!
dank7 - December 15, 2010
Wren must now counter the Lee deal.
I know this may be wishful thinking, but maybe he can unload Lowe’s contract and trade for Greinke. I know. Probably not going to happen.
GouldisGold - December 14, 2010
Why can't it?
Flip Lowe to Yanks and hook up with Dayton for Grienke… Why can’t it happen damnit!!!
HansonManCrush - December 14, 2010
Flip Lowe, but for Gardner. Grienke isn’t needed.
Broccoman - December 14, 2010
He is now.
And why would you think that he isn’t needed when you trade Lowe? That would leave two question marks in the rotation. I say trade Lowe(and his contract) to the Yankees for Gardner, then go trade for Greinke. That would essentially kill two birds with one stone.
GouldisGold - December 14, 2010
Except the Yankees aren't fools...
…and would never trade Gardner for Lowe. They could get much better for Gardner.
cavebird - December 14, 2010
Not if we eat some of Lowe's contract.
Surely, one of the Yankees or the Rangers is desperate enough to take him off our hands, especially if we eat some of his contract.
GouldisGold - December 14, 2010
I dont think eating salary is a problem for the yanks
Doghnut - December 14, 2010
I’ve heard that’s all they serve at the clubhouse buffet.
king of games - December 14, 2010
The only way that trade was going to happen was if the Yanks signed Crawford or Werth. Now if they do that they will have a hole in the OF
Braves24 - December 14, 2010
if the Yankees are looking to trade Gardner, then they’re going to go after Greinke themselves
alxn - December 14, 2010
WTF?
I’m still shocked
Braves24 - December 14, 2010
"Real lesson here is the Braves need a new owner"
Amen Brother!
DeadlyWalrus - December 14, 2010
Mark Cuban
anyone?
BlueVol03 - December 14, 2010
Better yet...
Arthur Blank?
GouldisGold - December 14, 2010
I’m sure you meant Arthur Blank-Check
awoods187 - December 14, 2010
Rec'd
and God I wish
ROBravo - December 14, 2010
that dude would sit in the dig out with the players.
i’ve seen how he hovers on the sidelines. and i love it. he actually cares.
Creek Johnson - December 14, 2010
dear god...
DUG out.
Creek Johnson - December 14, 2010
I'm sure
He’d be willing to sit in the dig out too
HansonManCrush - December 14, 2010 via mobile
maybe a conglomeration of wealthy individuals like the Rangers owners
would work, perhaps led by Ted Turner? I think that would be the best way to increase payroll, because it takes pressure off the individual owner and makes the team less subject to corporate interests(like current Braves ownership) and the whims of an unpredictable individual( Bill Veek and George Stienbrenner)
MWhitexx - December 14, 2010
Ted turner is sadly too old to organize and lead something like this
awoods187 - December 14, 2010
I saw him on TV a couple of weeks ago, he said he’s given most of his money away. He still has a boatload of land, but he’s crazy as hell.
bighop - December 14, 2010
I think the point everyone is trying to make, awoods187, is that Ted Turner shells out the cashola. Ted doesn’t have to organize crap. That’s what we have Wren for. He just has to write the checks.
Chief Knockahomer - December 14, 2010
Hardly.
I just finished reading his autobiography, he’s just as active as he ever was. Only now he’s focusing his efforts on charity, but still has more than enough money to do whatever the hell he wants.
Jake Humphrey - December 14, 2010
great book
great life..
i got up to the latter parts and slowed down but my goodness is his life so so interesting
dank7 - December 15, 2010
all he would really need to do is convince a few billionaire buddies to invest he would just need to front it, sort of be the face of the ownership again. it would really give the fan base faith in the ownership again like we had back in the 1990’s.
MWhitexx - December 14, 2010
GREAT
THE LAST THING WE NEED IS FOR THE SECOND BIGGEST CHEATERS TO CHEAT US OUT OF ANOTHER DIVISION!!!!!!!! }:(
southman - December 14, 2010
yankees are the biggest
southman - December 14, 2010
TWSS
TBuzz - December 14, 2010
cheaters?
Doghnut - December 14, 2010
yes
southman - December 14, 2010
Good explanation.
I now know. And
Doghnut - December 14, 2010
nice pic dude
southman - December 15, 2010
Liberty Media sucks ass
SouthernPanther - December 14, 2010
Yeah, the Yankees are the biggest something alright. I think we all know what. :)
Bigger is not always better. Steinbrenner (and, now sons) spends more money than God every year and how many times has it worked out for him? True, more than any other MLB team, but hardly every year. We need to soil ourselves on this one NOT because the Phils shelled out more dead presidents than us, but because they just got CLIFF freakin LEE. Ouch for us!
Chief Knockahomer - December 14, 2010
Yes is has actually
Granted they haven’t won a world series every year, but im sure they have definitely made plenty of profit. Media center of the universe, 04832049823049824 straight sold out games with everyone wearing the most expensive baseball merch… they have succeeded in what every business sets out to do, make a profit, but it had just been on such a huge level
austinhb - December 14, 2010
Spend money doesn´t mean anything. It just increase your chance to win, but still a chance to lose.
I´m a great fan of soccer, so i can give an example.
Real Madrid. The last year they spent something like $300M in trades ($96M CR9, $45M Kaka, etc) and they won nothing.
joshant - December 14, 2010
I am also a huge soccer fan....
but lets admit, soccer is very different from baseball. You cannot buy championships in soccer because soccer is more of a team sport that requires fantastic team chemistry. In fact soccer a soccer team will not win anything without team chemistry.
While team chemistry is very helpful in baseball it is not essential except maybe between P and C, and SS-2B.
For the record I am a die-hard fan of both soccer (Germany) and baseball (Braves), but for very different reasons…
Santaklose11 - December 14, 2010
Arthur FUCKIN' BLANK
LIberty Media’s head honcho made more last year than all the braves players combined. F that issssh
RufRider - December 14, 2010
They don't care about the Braves
They made money with the braves last year and they are just pocketing the money
BravosFanatic - December 14, 2010
It's corporate ownership.
The wealth of Liberty Media’s head is relatively irrelevant. As a corporate entity, the focus is on making profit for shareholders.
cavebird - December 15, 2010
They might have Lee
but we will have TEHERAN FTW
saipol - December 14, 2010
I don't care that he hasn't played a MLB game in his life,
that dude needs a nickname now.
Creek Johnson - December 14, 2010
Actually I idea of him being one of those one-name guys is pretty awesome to me.
TEHERAN. nuff said.
Creek Johnson - December 14, 2010
Just like the other JT, he’s bringing sexy back.
king of games - December 14, 2010
Just like Barry Badrinath's nickname is...
BARRY BADRINATH
kp.atl - December 14, 2010
The Terror? Capital of Iran?
TradeAndruw - December 14, 2010
This
Santaklose11 - December 14, 2010
I can hardly get over the idea of rolling out Teheran and Delgado
with Vizcaino mowing em down in the 9th. It will insane.
Creek Johnson - December 14, 2010
I can't wait until he's
Teheran it up for the Braves, and the Phillies are paying their unproductive geriatric pitchers
KJDH2154 - December 14, 2010
Julio Tearing it Up
dank7 - December 15, 2010
Exactly. It is easy to think that Rollins is the old guy on the team considering he’s been in their lineup since 2001. But, the other core, everyday players are all around the same age, just brought up later in their lives. Howard’s big league debut was blocked by Thome, who they eventually moved for Rowand. Utley was being blocked by then 2nd baseman Polanco. Heck, Victorino isn’t a spring chicken either.
That said, they do have a formidable team.
aaaaandTheBravesWin - December 14, 2010
Phillies
As a Braves fan it is tough to say but the phillies got better as an organization through all this. When the Phillies traded Lee last year they got some good mariners prospects in return. Then they get Cliff Lee back and sign him to a long term deal. It sucks but the phillies got stronger through both their farm system and their roster.
Rodgers - December 14, 2010
Farm system...
Don’t look now, but J.C. Ramirez, Phillippe Aumont, and Tyson Gillies didn’t exactly tear up the minor leagues last season.
Gilles: .238/.286/.333 slash line at AA. Aumont was demoted to end the season, going back to High-A after putting up a 7.43 ERA (10.0 H/9, 1:1 K/BB ratios) in AA. Ramirez fared the best, earning a promotion to AA, but his peripherals there were fairly poor as well (10+ H/9, 2.5/1 K/BB ratio, 11 HR in 13 starts).
They’re all 22, so there’s still plenty of time to improve, but they didn’t exactly light a fire under the farm system’s ass last season.
-C
cthabeerman - December 14, 2010
That trade looked bad at the time,
and it looks even worse now that they had to drop 9 figures (and a draft pick) to bring Lee back. That’s basically a gigantic “Whoopsies, I made a booboo!” from Amaro.
Jacob Peterson - December 14, 2010
Or...
Amaro would have had to spend similar money to retain Lee had he kept him last year, and wouldn’t have gotten any prospects. If one or more of those guys turns into a decent major leaguer that’s gravy. And it’s hard to argue that Lee would have been a difference-maker for the Phillies last year, given how he fared against the Giants.
phatj - December 14, 2010
He also wouldn't have lost the pick
so is either of the 3 worth a #1 pick, AND the production you’d have gotten from Lee this season?
Mr. Sanchez - December 15, 2010
The Phillies don't care about Long term
They just want to spend spend spend so they can win. Does anyone hear the Philidelphia Yankees?
BravosFanatic - December 14, 2010
+1million
jwrocks - December 14, 2010
The Phillies trade with the Mariners was a disaster for the Phillies.
None of the three guys they got even made their BA Top 10 this year. And not only did they perform poorly, Gilles managed to get himself arrested for cocaine possession last year as well, although the charges were eventually dropped.
cavebird - December 15, 2010
Let's create a facebook group towards Mark Zuckerburg asking him to buy the Braves
And give Frank $1B to work with….he’s already signed a pact that he was going to give all of his money away.
WHO’S WITH ME?!?!?!
KJDH2154 - December 14, 2010
You know what I think...
Adam Robinson was scared of Mizzou…
Scott Coleman - December 14, 2010
Apparently class isn't important anymore....
What a piece of shit….they’re going to beat Mizzou without him, you should start getting familiar with the name Marcus Coker.
Lesson to be learned here, don’t skip classes, or you’ll be suspended, so get off TC and go study, you don’t want to turn out like Adam Robinson
KJDH2154 - December 14, 2010
and the really Phucked up thing....
John Malone is a Phillies fan.
Our payroll projection for these goons, 5 years from now, is probably 50 mil. That’s, like, one guy for the Phillies. Ok, two guys.
I still like our chances, tho. Despite whatever else.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - December 14, 2010
Are you serious? Got a link?
Regardless, the son of a bitch is worth $2.4 B and should increase our payroll just to enhance the level of competition.
fandave - December 14, 2010
Have they tazed him and vomited on him yet?
TradeAndruw - December 14, 2010
plus
It’s like we had 20 mil snatched off the table. What ever happened to “around 100 mil” ?
obviously, that’s fucked. after making the playoffs. good sign of things to come. or bad sign, rather. and this Malone character aint selling shit. Except our players. He’s got them right where he wants them. Keep slashing prices. Pocket another 20 mil. Bastard.
I really do still think we can win, despite all this. But just think if we had an owner that actually gave a damn…
Chief Noc-A-Homa - December 14, 2010
One man's ceiling...
is another man’s floor. It seems to me, that if the Phils had resigned Werth and also signed Crawford and Lee,the Yanks would still have a higher payroll.Not making any point here other than to say the cards are stacked before the season even starts.
mikie baseball - December 14, 2010
Can Liberty Media put the Braves organization in Wall Street (i don´t know how to say "Bolsa de Valores" in English)
and the fans buy it, so the fans can decide who will be the CEO, budget, etc.
joshant - December 14, 2010
sometimes not picking a big name is the best thing
if we go after anyone id like to bring back javy he pitched like a badass for us. and the real question to me this offseason isnt who takes over at cf but rather why is wagner still on the roster and has not filed retirement papers already?? is he coming back??
HARDBODI82 - December 14, 2010
that would make life easy.
drumzalicious - December 14, 2010
just one more year even
would make me tingle
dank7 - December 15, 2010
So I went over the The Good Phight
Told them how good that Lee signing is for them and congraulated them and gave a post on the Braves pitching match-up
Some were very wrong
They said Blanton is better than Jurrjens, the laughed at me cause I said JJ and Hamels are in the same ball park
They think Oswalt is better than Hudson and Hanson
I really think some of them are absolutly clueless
KINGSLYTUT - December 14, 2010
Why would you even go over there?
Let’s be honest here…their blog is a joke.
They have no player reviews, basically no prospect coverage, are lucky to get a front page story every two or three days, and 90% of their posters would rather be morons to other fans instead of participating in a good debate.
Just stick to TC. There’s a reason we’re the biggest SBN baseball blog.
Scott Coleman - December 14, 2010
If you really must, go to AA. They are pretty good and are always good for at least a couple hilarious MS Paint pics.
TGP is terrible.
Doghnut - December 14, 2010
Yeah I enjoy AA a lot, and it’s mainly because (like Gondeee) Eric Simon doesn’t allow that nonsense like TGP does.
Scott Coleman - December 14, 2010
Yeah
even their Blog leader was rude
KINGSLYTUT - December 14, 2010
This is what I see when I go there....
But in my defense I was drunk when it happened….
KJDH2154 - December 14, 2010
Good for you!
JW…why are you drinking and posting…it’s illegal in 6 states..
KINGSLYTUT - December 14, 2010
lmao
I just went over to see what you were talking about, and they posted what you just said. One guy said he would rather have a front page story every two or three days then some prospect crap. lol
Braves24 - December 14, 2010
lol
well of course they would. They’re the Yankees now.
Scott Coleman - December 14, 2010
Again, +1million
jwrocks - December 14, 2010
need a new owner
Time warner cable owns the Braves and don’t care about winning. They tell Frank Wren to not go over their budget and he listen.When John was the GM he used to have a winner? The Braves need to trade Derrick Lowe and bring in a top pitcher and a leadoff center fielder.
jayball - December 14, 2010
TMC SUCKS!!!
Not only for being cheap but they are cutting out FOX…it’s gonna lose them tons of users including me
KINGSLYTUT - December 14, 2010
Time Warner hasn’t owned the Braves for years now.
Lennox - December 14, 2010
Liberty Media owns the Braves
BravosFanatic - December 14, 2010
I don't have time to read all the other comments,
but let me just say that I don’t think the Braves need a new owner. Last season ought to have proven that pretty conclusively. Liberty hasn’t exactly opened up their pockets, but I don’t think anyone could make the argument that their budgets have prevented Wren & Co. from fielding a competitive team most years. Last year, we could have easily made the World Series if a few players hadn’t gotten hurt.
If we got a new owner, it is no guarantee that he/she/it would be better for the team. For all of our fond memories of Ted Turner, the Braves were actually terrible for most of his tenure as owner. It wasn’t until he learned to be hands off that the team thrived. Large pockets can be a blessing or a curse, and the new owner might not even have large pockets.
Would I enjoy a bigger budget? Yes. Do I think it would make the team better? Well, probably, but it’s not assured. The team is doing just fine; let’s not overreact to the Phillies’ spending. It’s unbecoming.
Jacob Peterson - December 14, 2010
Agreed
There is no reason to panic, we still have a pretty solid team, and I don’t think this pressures Wren in any way. Lets just hope he can move KK and see what else minor move he can make here or the there to make the team deeper. But other than that let’s just stick to the plan and wait for spring training to see what we got
BravesFan-Venezuela - December 14, 2010
Good point...
if our “new owner” would be say Loria for Florida instead of a Ted Turner/Mark Cuban type, fans will be saying how they wish Liberty Media still owned the team.
Mr. Sanchez - December 15, 2010
Gondeee
you are the man… this was so needed
JKowalek - December 14, 2010
You cannot buy it anyone !
As much as the Bosox, Yankees, and Phils try you cannot buy the WS championship anymore. I seriously believe that the Phils are still the team to beat in the NLCS, I mean they have gained Cliff Lee but was he really what they needed ? I mean another starting pitcher ? Phils would have done better to retain Werth or go after Crawford, heck trade for Geinke even and saved some money something the Yankees may now have to do.
The Phils are becoming the ATL BRaves of the late 90’s trying to put all their future money into older starting pitchers which looks good now but wait a few years . At some point the money is gonna run out Philly nation and we no capital to few an injury to the likes of R. Howard, or mr. utley their are going to be hurting especially with no more Werth in the OF mix.
Braves are the team to beat in my mind I mean just look at our team, our pitching is now second best in the NL East sure but our Lineup top to bottom is totally balanced.
Heck the division is nice but getting the Wildcard and having to stay hot to get into the post season instead of coasting in like the Braves teams of the late 90’s and have an earlier exit NOT INJURY RELATED is fine with me.
Get the Uggla deal done Mr. Wren stop playing around !
Holty_Panthers_Fan - December 14, 2010
Typo
Meant to say the Phils are no longer the team to beat in the NL East.
Holty_Panthers_Fan - December 14, 2010
Long term
I like where the Braves are right now. Pretty young and getting younger. We made the playoffs in 2010 with basically our B-team. Heyward, Freeman, McCann and Prado will be around for a pretty good while, Uggla might be. Teheran, DelGado, Hanson, Jurrjens, Medlen, Minor and Beachy, and don’t forget Hudson might re-sign again, the Braves can weather any storm of elbow issues that might arise.
Schafer seems to be reemerging as a potential piece and we have a boatload of talent a few years away in Lipka, Salcedo, Cunningham, Leonard, Simmons, Bethancourt and Harrilchak, we don’t even know where most of those guys might be used.
The Braves should be pretty freaking good in 2011 and get better each year going forward. The Phillies might not be able to say that. They seem to be old and getting older.
bighop - December 14, 2010
long term
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/rankings/organization-top-10-prospects/2011/2611043.html
According to baseballamerica, the Phils have one of the better lower levels in baseball. So when their players start dropping from injuries in 2-4 years, it appears they will have some fresh blood coming in.
So I really don’t know where all this talk of them having no talent coming up is coming from?
Yes the Braves will have a lot of great talent around too, but it doesn’t appear like the Phillies will drop off the planet like everyone around here is predicting.
therev - December 15, 2010
What are you therev a Phils fan LOL !
Phillies have a deep farm system but the Braves always find a way to have one or two guys come up and fit into the big league club and immediately bring something to the table and have staying power.
Phillies will not be where the Braves are in three years but that is just my take. Those big contracts are going to hinder them from doing anything in free agency and or locking up any top talent that comes up through their system.
SO GO BRAVES !
Holty_Panthers_Fan - December 15, 2010
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