Talking Chop

A freakin' robbery!

Could not be happier

Mike Kerns - November 16, 2010 reply

Yessir

I’ve been BIG on the anti-Uggla bandwagon but in my defense it just wasn’t possible for anyone to speculate how little the Marlins actually wanted for him.

Also love how early in the meetings this came about … leaving plenty of time to focus on Justin!!! wink, wink

The Devil Wears Prado - November 16, 2010 reply

ATTA BOY FRANK!

love me some uggla

I can’t believe that’s all it took to get a slugger from a division rival, now if only FW can pull off the same type steal with the D’backs an get Upton for a bag of balls lol

I have never laughed so hard at a TC comment. Kudos, sir/ma’am.

The Keith Lockhart Era - November 16, 2010 reply

Beautiful. Wonderful. Awesome. Smashy.

Jim Bowden on XM/MLB Radio

“I don’t like this deal for the Marlins whatsoever”

This, 2nd'd

The rumor is they were clearing monies to sign John Buck. I just shot milk out my nose ….

i love this deal for the marlines, they just got weaker, an no, that’s not a typo.

Not a rumor.

They did. They should still have a decent amount after him to go to an SP, though.

Another quote

“For Fredi Gonzalez to go back to him former team and say, ‘Okay, you fired me, I’m gonna take Dan Uggla with me!’”

I agree...

Why make that move from their perspective? Who cares? Yay.

Jman781 - November 16, 2010 reply

Can't pay him what he wants, don't want draft picks.

Damn!!...it's a done deal.

Wow, I really liked Omar “The All Star” Infante but this is big for the Bravos. I hope this is not the only transaction we make this off season.

Negotiations...

Michael Hill, Marlins GM: Happy birthday, C!! What would you like as a gift??

C: How about Dan Uggla for Omar Infante and Michael Dunn??

Michael Hill, Marlins GM: Done!!

Pretty sweet 30th birthday present…something I’ll definitely use for a whole year.

-C

Message to Jeffrey Loria

Great Move

No offense to Infante, but this screams, “Sell high!” I will miss Omar, but adding a guy with RH pop like Uggla without giving up any prospects (other than Dunn) is sweet.

Jman781 - November 16, 2010 reply

Agree

Just thinking how much I’m going to miss Omar and his auto-singles. Guy carried us this past year, but there’s no way we could say no to a deal like this.

I also agree that this was a great sell high with probably our highest player. I think he’ll still do well, but more at the .300 level than the .340 he was at most of this year.

If Uggla produces decently, Infante wouldn’t need to carry us, and we have a rich man’s Infante in Prado.

Not even in my wildest rosterbation fantasies could I imagine a dumbass GM that would take Infante/Dunn for Dan Uggla!

you aint the only one

I gotta say, I’ve NEVER heard commentary from the “experts” that was in such disbelief about a one-sided trade.

does this make up for the tex trade in a small way?

Depends.

If we don’t make the playoffs and Infante and Dunn become perennial All Stars for Florida like Feliz and Andrus will for Texas, probably not.

Do you honestly think a lefty reliever who walks to many people and a singles hitting utility infielder are going to become perennial all stars?

Clearly not.

But that was the problem with the Teixiera deal.

True, but, we only gave up 2 players, both easily replaceble, neither are prospects, and neither are going to be something special, although I will miss Omar

Yes, I know. Great deal.

But the Teixiera deal was bad any way you slice it.

i think he's just illustrating how bad that deal was

WHO CARES! WE JUST GOT UGGLA FO FREE

FW must have had a secret video of the Marlins GM on To Catch a Predator or something!

+1

I think that wacko Braves fan on MLBTR wouldn’t even suggest something this lopsided.

While we're all celebrating Uggla coming to Atlanta...

We should all reflect on what Omar Infante did for us in 2010.

Thank you Omar. You were phenomenal last year and we couldn’t have done it without you.

Please suck in Florida in 2011, and then come re-sign with us in the off-season. No hits against the Braves gets you a nice signing bonus.

Here here!

In addition to helping us win ballgames, Omar raised his trade value to apparently nearly that of Dan Uggla. Bravo!

View it like this:

I have a Hyundai Genesis and a BMW 5 Series. You have a Mercedes CLS. You offer to trade me your Mercedes CLS for the BMW 5 Series. I say hell no—but you can have the Hyundai Genesis (which is a surprisingly good car), plus this Kia Sephia I happen to have lying around.

GREAT DEAL, RIGHT?

mnesos - November 16, 2010 reply

Maybe if you're leasing the cars...

+1

of course

Infante was and is one of my favorites

God speed, and get in touch next off season

+100

Auto-single will never be forgotten at TC.

My only question...

can he hit Halladay, Oswalt, Josh Johnson, Johan Santana, Cole Hamels, or (for our sakes) any left handed pitchers/garbage pitchers?

His OPS against lefties was .984 in 2010. Yes please.

v. Phillies

.309/.390/.978 Mmmmmm

Prado
Heyward
Chipper
Uggla
McCann
Gonzo
Freddie
McLouth

yeah that looks pretty pretty good.

Hey if we're rosterbating

Why stop there:

Prado
Heyward
Chipper
Uggla
McCann
Upton – cf
Freddie
Gonzo

J Upton, not BJ

I’d be happy with either upton, I think bj might be the better fielder in center…

He’s named BJ for a reason… he sucks.

Zing!

swainzy - November 16, 2010 reply

It’s bazinga. Just for future refrence.

thewillis - November 16, 2010 reply

Heyward
Chipper
Prado
Uggla
Mac
Freeman
A-Gon
Schaefer/Matt Young/Tony Gwynn Jr (being realistic)

Two things

Chipper should not be batting 3rd anymore. Heyward should not be batting 2nd.

Heyward is a RBI player and batting second steals a lot of those chances away.

Is an RBI player someone who wills those in front of him in the order into scoring position?

Chipper and Prado get on well enough imo

that he’ll have plenty of RBI chances

I don’t doubt that.

I’m just wondering what an RBI player is.

It's like a winner, with a stick

Do they come with calm eyes?

And they are professional hitters too.

Only if they glide, show emotion, have grit and heart.

Just be wary of opportunity cost in an unverified trade market. It will get you every time.

Correction

While Professional Hitters certainly do glide, they do not show emotion (or hit as well as a replacement player).

buzzdeadwax - November 16, 2010 reply

Are you talking about a Duke PG?

All about eye discipline.

Uhh...

A. not really a matter of should. He will.
B. Heyward’s one of our best baserunners, and has a sick OBP to boot. Top of the lineup where he gets more ABs is better than 6th for those nebulous RBI chances.

Next Order Of Business:

Get Justin Upton!

Br8vesfan - November 16, 2010 reply

I'm still in disbelief

Honestly, Uggla for Infante and Dunn…..

Lineup baby

Prado
Heyward
Chipper
Uggla
Upton/Braun
McCann
Freeman
Gonzalez

Worst case, we put Nate in at 7/8. Still too sexy by far.

What?

Let’s just calm down a bit with the Braun/Upton talk, at least for the rest of the day. There’s still plenty of off-season to rosterbate.

Amen.

Dream, don’t put it in writing.

Yes...plus, it's all about pacing?! Hiyo!

I'm going to miss Infante. He was a Damn good Brave...

but this is just too good of a deal to turn down.

BravesFanScout - November 16, 2010 reply

Although I had a huge man crush on Infante, this is an awesome deal.

If Ugla can produce like he has in the past few years then we just got a whole lot better. I know it might hurt Prado’s feelings since he and Infante are besties, but this just upped our win total for next year

Oh no!

Now he’ll suck like Yunel without Brayan Pena.

another message for Loria

roflcoptar

Just thought about it...

the Blue Jays are probably super pissed about this trade. Braves gave up almost nothing for Uggla.

ByrneSupremacy - November 16, 2010 reply

I guess the Marlins still felt bad for not giving Bobby a retirement gift…

THIS

is the retirement gift.

plus a bag of nicole richies’ panties.

apoxonbothyourhouses - November 16, 2010 reply

Rec'd!

Better late than never. Marlins still suck, though.

BravePhin - November 16, 2010 reply

Well done.

!Vive la Francoeur! - November 16, 2010 reply

If only Florida’s GM could make the deal for Arizona. Upton for Cordier and Brooks Conrad!

So

I have a feeling Frank Wren has dirt on every GM out there or something because he has absolutely robbed people in all of his trades

kotchman, ankiel, gonzo, lee

all were bad trades in my book (lee is debatable)

that being said, this one is an absolute fleecing by FW. great job by him.

Lee was a great trade for us.

depends on the lottery ticket of lopez

Lee kinda carried us into the playoffs.

so...

if we’d given up JT and FF it would still be fine with you?

“making the playoffs” isn’t an absolute that makes all trades acceptable. especially when said team doesn’t advance past the first round.

But we didn’t give up those two.

Your post is irrelevant.

....

hypotheticals, how do they work?

What if there were no such thing as hypothetical questions?

Boom roasted.

“Kevin, I was trying to come up with a joke and i couldn’t decide between a fat joke or a dumb joke. Boom roasted.”

win

k2spitfire88 - November 16, 2010 reply

Stoners would be a lot less inquisitive

In that case...

Well, what if JT and FF turn out to never play a major league game?

A decent question....

if it hadn’t already happened.

After the hypothetical trade, of course.

I understand...

but if Lopez becomes Wainwright Jr, we’ll still have to here bitching.

yep

at the time it looked like we gave up a little too much. but we won’t really know until 5 or so years down the road.

Sure, but only because people will forget that Lopez was our, what, 4th or 5th rated prospect, not even counting Minor, Beachy, Hanson, Medlen, etc?

ya, generally you don’t include players that have two full seasons of MLB play as prospects

I don’t see anyone on that list with 2 full seasons of MLB play.

Maybe not even that...

he has some great stuff, but his control is suspect. Extremely young, but he had his struggles for Rome. He’s farther away than Wainwright, maybe similar to Feliz but with a few MPH lower. I think it was worth it for Lee, but if Lopez develops as good as possible, like Wainwright and Feliz, people will say it was far from a great trade. No one seems to remember that Drew helped us make the playoffs with a great season when complaining about what Wainwright is doing.

I always try to remind people of Drew, but they just see Wainwright and his Ks now.

Very few people complain about Wainwright.

It’s not close to Feliz or Andrus.

and to be honest, if Escobar would have worked out better, we wouldn’t be complaining as much about that one.

dlkinser86 - November 16, 2010 reply

Escobar worked out pretty damn well – best defensive SS in the game, and one of the better offensive ones…he just had about 3 bad months. He was absolutely baller the rest of his time here.

That was easily Wren’s dumbest move.

Unlike with KK...

…where people just speculate there was a clubhouse problem of some type despite all the evidence being to the contrary, there was more than a minor clubhouse problem with Escobar. His stats were fine other than the first half of 2010; hell, they were good. His attitude, however, by all accounts was piss poor. I get the feeling Wren had little choice but to move Escobar and had to get the best he could for him when he was struggling mightily.

I get why we traded him. It was just a stupid decision.

Escobar hasn't exactly made it regrettable yet in Toronto...

I agree with you that the better play was probably letting him regain value in the second half and flipping him this winter, but we don’t know how far things deteriorated in the clubhouse.

Either way, Escobar hasn’t played in Toronto at a level that says he’s sorely missed.

And Gonzalez hasn’t played at a level in Atlanta that makes me say “Boy, am I sure glad we gave up on Escobar for THIS guy!”

Agreed

so both sides came out crap.

You take what you can get.

He did his part to help us to the playoffs.

While at the same time doing his part to make it to where we almost didn’t make the playoffs.

And Gonzalez hasn’t played at a level in Atlanta that makes me say “Boy, am I sure glad we gave up on Escobar for THIS guy!”

If you just look at the players and skills involved in the trade, It really wasn’t even close (unless Pastornicky pans out to be more the utility guy). The problem with this is that we didn’t trade him because of the his skills. Wren and Bobby traded him b/c of his attitude, which by all accounts that I’ve heard was very poor.

dlkinser86 - November 17, 2010 reply

That poor attitude wasn’t having any effect on the W-L column, which as a fan, is all I care about.

They put up with that attitude for 4 years – what’s another 3 months?

Depends whether you think those next three months might keep you from a WS title.

Then, this deal is even worse because Escobar is clearly the more talented player

huh?

Talent doesn’t matter if you bring down your entire clubhouse.

He sure did a good job bringing down the entire clubhouse the first half since we were in first place

We were in first...

despite him, not because of him.

But let’s gloss over that tidbit, because it’s unpleasant to remember.

-C

did I ever say we were in first because of him? No but we did win and that is what counts right? Like you said, it’s in the past now so let’s stop talking about it because that deal was horrible

That deal...

Might have been horrible.

Yunel’s given us no reason to regret the trade yet, and 2010 Sea Bass was better than 2010 Yunel, both in Atlanta and on the whole.

-C

Yunel may or may not have given us reason to regret the trade (if only looking at post-trade numbers and ignoring 3 years of data), but Gonzalez has certainly not given us any reason to appreciate the trade.

I agree with this.

-C

cthabeerman - November 18, 2010 reply

Things were getting worse, not better.

Things got worse after the trade…like, lucking our way into a playoff berth after havintg a 7 game lead with a different, better shortstop.

Who in spite of his "better-ness," performed significantly worse.

He brought the clubhouse down all the way to the best record in the NL.

...which had nothing to do with having healthy players like Chipper, Prado, Medlen, and EOF available.

I don't know...

I feel like we could have found room for both.

exactly

in no way can you call it “great”

not given our info at the time of the trade, nor judging it based the results

Holy Shit.

What a way to brighten up a rainy, shitty Tuesday. I still can’t believe the Marlins would do this. To a DIVISION RIVAL, no less. Wow. Just wow. Someone pinch me.

SnipeShot - November 16, 2010 reply

yea its crazy

we go from the Nats wanting Hanson for Dunn to the Marlins wanting a utility player and a reliever for Uggla

Underated aspect of this deal?

We get more lineup stability with McCann moving out of the heart of the lineup.

Assuming we get a solid defensive and decent-hitting OF

it also lets us sit Freeman if we’re facing a really tough lefty.

Prado or Uggla at 1st and 2nd, and then the OF in LF.

Absolutely Prado at 1B.

His best defensive position.

And Freddie (Freeman) doesn't have to have any pressure on him to mash right outta the gate

This is true as well.

Just a terrific trade. Our lineup just became a lot better.

Great deal,

but too bad we had to give up Omar. When someone gets injured in July, it may not be as trivial, now. Long way to go, tho.

well

we do have Diory. He was out almost all of last year.

And...

if it’s a long term injury, we don’t have to rely on Diory…we just move Uggla or Prado back to the IF from the OF and replace them with a bench OF bat which is almost certainly better than Diory.

and Hicks

Matt Young for 2b/OF backup, Diory for SS backup. Can Prado play short at all?

He's been playing a lot of LF in winter ball

but I’m not sure about SS

He actually got a start there in '08.

And was perfect in 25 minor-league chances over eight games between ‘07 and ’08. Probably wouldn’t be pretty, but he could field the position.

Prado can play anywhere Infante did except maybe CF.

SS

There will be another IF on the team in April. Diory??

Fatvirus - November 16, 2010 reply

There are plenty of utility INF types as free agents.

Jerry Hairston for one, and there are plenty of others.

Omg.

Fear us, Philadelphia! FEAR US!
I shall miss Infante though. It’s gonna be rough for him. I can’t believe it didn’t take one of our big pitching prospects, though. Jeff Loria is SO.DUMB.

MBL1 - November 16, 2010 via mobile reply

Frank Wren:

This is the big piece the Braves were looking for. We’ll now focus on smaller items — bench, bullpen depth.

so...

are we to assume that McLouth has a starting OF spot?

JayF - November 16, 2010 reply

That was ALWAYS the plan.

Right, like I’m gonna believe a word he says.

truth

I'm sure we have some BP guys in the minors

like Marek for instance.
This trade makes going to Spring Training (& possibly opening day) even more exciting.

MBL1 - November 16, 2010 via mobile reply

I’ll take it with a grain of salt

aw poo

We do need to go get a closer though.

Got an issue with Venters and Kimbrel?

SuperNewb - November 16, 2010 reply

It'd be nice to have the OPTION of going to a vet if they struggle in the 9th.

Moylan?

and they likely sign a guy like Rauch, Putz, or any of a dozen or more cheap FAs who can be that option

Moylan is also untested as a closer.

I agree that they’re likely to get a cheap vet, but I think that’s what drumz was suggesting.

you said "vet"...

not guy with “closer experience”.

That is true.

But guy with experience in the role is what I meant, i.e. “get a closer” like drumz said. Not a guy to necessarily be our closer, but who has done it.

Kimbrel and Venters have both "done it"...

as has Moylan.

Sure, but not for anything more than spot appearances once a month or one-out pick-me-up saves

Kimbrel has closed

every step of the way up in the minors.

Umm, ok...

So did Devine. That didn’t work out so hot. The majors are a different animal. Surely you know that.

You mean the grand total of 6 saves in 23 professional games?...

surely you can see the difference between Devine’s ascension and Kimbrel’s ascension through the ranks (over 150 minor league innings and another 20 in the bigs). You’re also smart enough to know simply having a closing past doesn’t mean a damn thing (Kolb, etc).

Didn’t all of them get crucial playoff experience in the most high of pressure situations?

Moylan has faced more high-pressure situations than any closer in the game.

Card Players who are still holding all of their aces can say anything they want.

this

Very true

I don’t really believe him either.

I’m just saying that now that our offense is very solid, we shouldn’t be stupid and trade away the farm.

Exactly...

Now, we won’t reek of desperation all off-season and can make a prudent deal. If we start the year with this lineup, that’s fine by me.

Excellent point. Now we don’t need Upton, which means that if they start to get crazy on his asking price, we can easily walk away and call their bluff.

thenightstallion - November 16, 2010 via mobile reply

This is somewhat disappointing.

The Braves have so much pitching depth, why not make a push for a Rasmus/Kemp/Upton type?

Just because Frank Wren says something

doesn’t mean it’s the truth.

True, but I can easily see him sitting back on this deal all offseason.

With so many tradeable arms in Jurrjens, Minor, Vizcaino, Delgado, Beachy etc., I’m sure the Braves could land another very good OF bat.

The Braves lineup just turned into a very good one, why not just throw down and get another bad to make it great? A little overkill to take back the NL East would not disappoint me.

another bat*

i agree

I kinda went crazy earlier trading our whole farm for Upton, Braun and Adrian Gonzalez.

In this situation though it would most certainly HAVE to be a CF we trade for because Prado will be in LF

I would think someone who could play both LF/CF would work. ALA Kemp/Rasmus/either Upton brother.

Chippers health is never a sure thing, so if Prado has to go to 3B it would be nice to have another young power bat in the OF mix somewhere. If Chippers healthy they would play CF, if Chipper goes down or retires, they play LF. Works for everyone.

Sitting back...

Is better than reaching, every time.

Essentially, this deal allows us to make an educated move, rather than beg, i.e. overpay, for a move because we’re so desperate to improve our team..

-C

i dont think we trade any of our starting pitchers until the trade deadline

knowing teheran has a good chance of comming up next summer, and knowing we might develop a hole before then in either CF, 3b, or somewhere less expected, I think we hold onto our pitching till Teheran comes up and one is expendable.

otherwise you leave a hole in the starting pitching by relying on both minor and beachy to pitch well.

One of the pitchers ahead of teheran is especially expendable at this point considering that it wouldnt be long before Medlen could return.

Terrific trade.

I hated to have given up Infante, but this is totally worth it. FW was finally able to get that big right-handed power bat that we have lacked since Andruw in his glory days.

Also, Loria is an idiot.

First dialogue between Frank and Dan

Wren – “Hey Dan, we have one problem”
Uggla – “Yes, Frank”
Wren – “Ummmm yeah, about that #6 you wear”

LOL! +6

haha

MBL1 - November 16, 2010 via mobile reply

LOL

I hear that number is kind of legendary in Atlanta…

he's going to wear E4

WINNAR

/thread. +1000000000000000

!Vive la Francoeur! - November 16, 2010 reply

I approve this message.

i'm ok with it if

Jerry Hairston Jr or Willie Bloomquist replace Omar

Agreed....

In this order….
Hairston
Punto
Bloomquist
.
With Chippper, Uggla,and Prado in the lineup we dont need a bat as much as a glove and versatility. Hairston holds his own at SS and can play eveything else. Punto is a good glove guyand can play anywhere….Bloomquist is OK in the IF..but the only offensive asset is his speed.
I also heard that Ryan Theriot may on waivers….I owuld take him as an extra bat.

calbers - November 16, 2010 reply

I like the riot alot

kreese555 - November 17, 2010 reply

Early word on Hairston is he wants to go back to SD, where they’ve got needs at utility and both MI positions. I don’t see that working out for us.

Just yesterday I proposed a Dunn, Infante, Minor for Uggla trade....

…..and I’ll be damned if the Braves only had to include one of them. What in the hell?

Undocorkscrew - November 16, 2010 reply

2...

Yeah, I was gonna go with 'exclude' and got it all mixed up.

Undocorkscrew - November 16, 2010 reply

Larry Beinfest is on MLBN now...

this should be good.

I would still like a leadoff hitter.

Like, say, Crisp or Rajai Davis. Whichever one Oakland doesn’t want.

i'm assuming BB will want crisp

Now getting a guy like B.J. Upton makes a little more sense

Especially if it wouldn’t take much to get him either

Good thought...

a lot less risk if he craps out, but there’s still the high reward if he doesn’t.

hmm

interesting.

i like

UGGLA

announces he’ll wear the #E4

Why not .877?

Since it’s the OPS he posted last year at 2nd base?

it was a joke i’m happy about this

lol

okay good.

TC always seems to have a poster or two who tries to one-up everyone by taking a position opposite of everyone else. I didn’t think you would do it.

I have my misgivings about this deal, but I’m not going to call it an out-and-out FAIL or anything.

I will, however, not back down from calling out the stupidity of referring to Uggla as “added 3B depth.” That’s just stupid on a level that I almost can’t fathom.

Who said he’s 3B depth? Uggla isn’t going to play anything other than 2B or maybe 1B on occasion.

Folks in the first thread and the MLBTR report both cited his ability to fill in if Chipper doesn’t come back. Which is farking stupid. Brooks would play a better third base than Uggla.

Well MLBTR is irrelevant

and I didn’t see anyone in the other thread say anything about it either.

This also gives us a contingency plan if Chipper can’t come back. God, what a deal! – NCBraves on Nov 16, 2010 2:43 PM PST

I was just thinking this…
FW just covered two concerns with one move (1 – our RH power bat need, 2 – our concerns at 3B if Chipper doesn’t fully recover). Wow…I’m just in awe. – bradleyjah on Nov 16, 2010 2:45 PM PST

Maybe they were referring to Prado moving to 3rd if Chipper gets hurt?

Or at least I hope so anyways…

See, that’s immaterial. It’s common knowledge that Prado is the insurance policy there with or without Uggla’s presence. So obviously someone out there is propagating the belief that Uggla can play the hot corner, and it got all the way up to Tim Dierkes.

I know I know. Just do your best to ignore it.

I disagree.

Before Uggla, we did not have a starting-caliber backup to replace Prado at 2B if he moved to 3B, no matter how much people want to believe Infante is that guy.

You know, some people just disagree some times.

MLB TV interviewing Larry Vinefest (sp?) of the Marlins

“Very happy with the players we got back.”
“The deal just worked for us.”
“Tried to get value for him” (once they felt he would not sign the extension; knowing he only had 1 more year under contract).

"Beinfest" - thanks mvhs

One wonders whether they just don't realize two first-rounders=value.

yayayayayayya uggla braves headshot

haha yes

FUCK YES

its a goood start to the offseason

RufRider - November 16, 2010 reply

Hopefully Uggla kills the fish the way that Infante is going to kill the Braves.

My guess is he’s going to get even more playing time in Florida.

Well, if he gets more playing time, he'll probably look a lot like he did in September and October.

NOT an everyday starter.

Soooooo

Who’s playing LF and who’s playing 2B?

Martin Prado will step in at third base as Chipper Jones recovers from knee surgery or log innings in left field if necessary, tweets Rosenthal.

via “the Rose”

makes sense to me. Prado at 3rd is money.

“Recovers from knee surgery”
I thought Chipper was expected to be ready for spring training.

MBL1 - November 16, 2010 via mobile reply

ya know

i honestly wouldn’t be surprised if he didnt make it back till May.

He won’t be around opening day due to suspension anyways.

He is.

looks good to me

I feel like his familiarity with the OF will help.

Gotta think we’ll see Prado in LF.

Just turned it to ESPN....

ESPN, I didn’t know what they were showing. ESPN2? Women’s basketball.

MBL1 - November 16, 2010 via mobile reply

yeah man kind of a fail

you’ve got to quit doing that. lol. just let it go. fuck women’s basketball. lmao

I just wanted to see if they actually were talking about the Braves. nooope.

MBL1 - November 16, 2010 via mobile reply

i know :)

but like i said, fuck espn. i wouldnt even bother, if you’re looking for breaking Braves news. unless the Braves win another WS, espn has blacklisted them.

haha, “unless”…..I obviously meant “until.”

Next year. We made it probably TOO close this year at about 50%. ugh. facepalm. blast.

Wait...

What even IS women’s basketball?

The Braves will finally have two guys to hit over 20 HRs

that hasn’t happen in a long time.

And possibly have a guy reach 30!

From the wonder that is MLBTR

hullo
Now you like the trade? Funny because 15 minutes ago you posted this: “I rather have Infante and Dunn. That trade would possibly be worse than the Teixeira trade.”

BravesRed
I still don’t like the trade, but it’s still a steal for Wren.

hullo
So it’s a steal for Wren but it’s worse than giving up Neftali Feliz, Jarrod Salty and Elvis Andrus? Could your post make any less sense?

BravesRed
And, out of the Teixeira trade who did anything for the Rangers? Feliz.

LOL

they’re slowly overtaking ESPN for the most dumbass thread posters on the internet.

I dunno, I still have to give the crown to those at AJC

They’re kind of like Henry Aaron…they’ll never be toped.

There's always YouTube!

This has been a pretty good day for you guys.

Well, it's no WS

but yeah….a good start in the right direction!

"You guys"

you mean you’re not with us anymore?

:(

Perish the thought. This a trade that benefits all of you. If he’d been traded to the Giants, it would have benefited “us.” In other words, I meant “you guys” in the specific sense of Braves fans. I guess the semantics are a bit murky.

You guys?!?!

Don’t get all hoity-toity on us just bc you got a WS title…sheesh…;-p

I promise I am probably the least hoity-toity person you’ll ever meet.

aaaaand you win the thread...

for using “hoity-toity.”

You know who’s really happy about this trade? Your boy BMac.

If it’s good enough for him, it’s good enough for me. And let me say a day that sees the addition of more sturdy gentlemen to the team is a good day in my book.

Just givin ya a little hell yo

I’ve seen ya around, you seem pretty cool

Oh, believe me; I’m used to it. People in here tease me all the time, especially since the WORLD CHAMPION SAN FRANCISCO GIANTS became WORLD CHAMPIONS. You may have seen it in the papers.

I just realized I'm quoted in your sig

Awesome XD

Yah I saw that

and had to use it. Just fits so well.

The beauty of this, besides that we stole him

Is that this was a guy that has absolutely killed the Braves in his career. He was the one guy, everytime he can up, that I was most worried about when we played them.

I LOVE YOU AGAIN FRANK!!

Any chance Prado could play CF?

he’s a solid athlete, and a former MI so he may be good at getting reads and jumps (which McLouth is not). And his arm can’t be any worse than McLouth’s.

i can’t imagine he would be any good. he’s got that stocky body.

Yes, he does. Mmmmmm.

Marquis Grissom wasn't exactly long and lean

among others. Personally, I’m hoping we can take back a bad salary CF for Kawakami. Or maybe send Delgado or Beachy for Revere.

Grissom

Was one of my favorite Braves even though he wasn’t here very long. I loved watching him shag fly balls!

TCfromDubVee - November 16, 2010 reply

Because stocky bodies can't play CF...

Ridiculous comment.

Heyward in CF

Prado in RF
McLouth (or someone else) in LF

Why?
I’d rather put Prado in LF just because I’d assume he has the worst range

Worse than McLouth?

I doubt it.

The reason for McLouth in LF is that he has by far the weakest arm.

Umm...yes.

He can barely move a step in either direction at 2B.

Why are we starting the worst defensive player at the more important defensive position?

Prado should be our 2B.

Probably because:

A) Prado has experience in the OF and is better than Uggla in the OF
B) Uggla doesn’t want to play the OF and we want to be nice to him for extension purposes (although given what he wants, I’d rather take the year of Uggla and the draft picks, assuming the CBA still gives draft picks by then)

Prado is also better at 2B, which is a more important position for defense. I really couldn’t care less where Uggla wants to play. If I am the manager, I play him where it makes the team better, and that is LF.

I think it would be far better to trade for a decent fielding CF.

Get it in your head.

McLouth will be starting in the OF next year.

My only problem with this trade...

is defense. With Lowe and Hudson generating a lot of ground balls we have Jones and Uggla in the infield. Those aren’t exactly amazing gloves. We weren’t a good defense to begin with.

This is true

but Freeman is a million times better than Glaus and probably a little better than DLee too. That’ll help.

Uggla, to his credit, has gotten better at his D.

I’m not sure about Lee. Lee is a great defensive first baseman.

Bobby was using Freeman as a defensive replacement for Lee. That wasn’t because Bobby was trying to get playing time for a rookie. Was a combo of Freddie being that good, and Lee being a little old.

Uggla doesn't have great defense

but I don’t mind with what he’ll bring to the lineup.

MBL1 - November 16, 2010 via mobile reply

What differences are there in the Marlins field and ours?

Check Uggla’s errors at Turner.

BravePhin - November 16, 2010 reply

Prado doesn't have an "amazing glove," either.

Or anywhere close to it.

Brandon Hicks time

is upon us

Erihury - November 16, 2010 reply

or

Diory ??

Oh god Jon Heyman

just STFU and get some Just For Men. This was a total steal for the Braves, don’t try to spin it any other way.

What did he say?

WAIT

Cant that Mather guy we got earlier play every position but SS?

OH YEAH

i completely forgot about him.

MBL1 - November 16, 2010 via mobile reply

OMG this blog is BLOWING UP

When I clicked on it, there was 1 comment. By the time the page FINALLY loaded, there were 141 comments.

coachrob - November 16, 2010 reply

And I thought I had a slow connection…

Wow…Frank Wren, you motorboating son of a bitch.

…….lol. get it.

He's such a genius.

It’s only 10 days into the off-season and he (probably) just pulled the best trade of the off-season.

yeah……….. essentially, we traded one All-Star for another.

if we had somehow snuck in Diory, instead of Omar, that would have been the deal of the decade.

No. We traded one “All Star” for an All Star.

“whatever”

please be a joke

only literal truthe

uggla >>>>>>> infante

infante is a nice player, but there’s a reason why so many were upset he was an allstar

so your argument is that a starter is more valuable to a team than a closer, or a key bullpen guy?

that’s fine. but I don’t agree with that. at all.

.....what the hell are you talking about?

that we traded one All-Star for another.

and your previous post has absolutely 0 to do with that

i’m sure it made sense in your mind, but on “paper” it makes none at all.

at least to me anyways.

You think someone who isn’t good enough to pitch for more than a couple of innings is more valuable than someone who is good enough to pitch for 5+ innings?

You would rather have a guy who you can only use limittedly than somone you can depend on every day?

You would rather have the best sub than one of the best starters???

I’m baffled.

Depends on the starter and reliever...

Wagner or Kawakami, Chavez or Hudson? Cristhian Martinez or Jojo Reyes?

Infante over Uggla is the specific set of players in question.

Um,...

is that like asking Cake or death?

You would think so, but apparently some people prefer death – they don’t even consider chicken as another option.

+1

Thank you for flying Church of England

Ciao.

LOL

Is Infante a closer, or bullpen guy?

Yeah.

I’m sure the Cards will be all over Florida to get themselves John Buck. They’ll probably offer Pujols. All-Star for All-Star! Totally fair!

I have to assume when the other GM's heard the news as they walked back into the room

They all broke out in laughter towards the Marlins…..and then decided to just call it a night and go get drunk with Frank and ask him how he does it, and what blackmail story he had planned to use on them had they not agreed

I basically associate myself with Capitol Avenue's thoughts on this.

The price was fine, but Uggla does not fill any of our actual needs. We already had an excellent 2B; what we needed is an LF. That’s not Uggla. He’s a good player, but not a good fit for this club, unless Wren is planning to move Prado this offseason.

FYI

Prado can play LF

Yeah, I get that they can realign that way

I just don’t quite see why we didn’t go the straightforward way to addressing our LF hole. Still, it is encouraging to have a real slugger in the lineup. I guess it’s a fine trade, given the price.

What 30 HR, .840 career OPS LF was available for Infante and Dunn?

I can’t think of any.

Who were we going to sign to play LF that is better than Prado or Uggla?

Minus Werth or Crawford, of course…

Does it matter how the hole is filled, as long as its with a quality player. Prado is quality.

This.

Prado will be the Left Fielder.

I like Jones in left and Prado at 3rd.

Fredi will have them stretching more, next year. It’ll work.

Chipper will not be running around the OF with a newly rehabbed knee. Not happening.

I dunno. He was walking around very shortly after the operation. I think Chipper is going to have a great year, wherever he plays, and whenever he is ready to come back.

As someone who has suffered two major knee injuries, walking around on it after injuring it doesn’t mean very much. Most of the CLs aren’t very engaged while walking.

That said, LF doesn’t require much cutting, pivoting or lateral movement in general, so you may be onto something, in that regard, but but I don’t think he has the speed.

I just had the same surgery less than a year ago, and my right knee (the one that tore) is decidedly stronger than my left.

It really only takes about 6 months to fully recover from ACL surgery.

damn, that was STILL a helluva throw. out. yay! wait, huh?!?!

Vincent Smith

who plays runningback for the University of Michigan (Go Blue, btw) tore his ACL in the last game of the ‘09 season and was back ready for the season opener 9 months later. Now , he’s literally half Chippers age, but I think that is offset by the fact he plays runningback in Div. 1 college football which is much more demanding on the legs than baseball. Chipper’s knee will probably be the most stable joint in his body next season.

J-Turn14 - November 17, 2010 reply

you are just chiming in with the gems today. chipper jones in left, utility guy is the same as a starter. good work.

Off-season Offensive Priority #1: RH Power Bat. [checkmark]

(and it’s only November 16th)

Thank you.

I disagree.

Dan Uggla is the big right-handed bat we’ve been looking for since 2007. I’m freaking ecstatic.

Yeah, I retract.

I wasn’t thinking in terms of cost-benefit. The cost here was really low.

Exactly

I’m still very, very concerned with our defense, but we CANNOT act like adding some pop to the middle of our lineup wasn’t an equally pressing issue.

Any problem can be solved by moving Uggla to left, and getting a defensive CF like a Tony Gwynn Jr, or praying that Jordan Schaefer can hit his weight. (my guess is he’d play the OF well at least)

Wasn't that the story of his whole rookie season?

So RH hitter with power is not a need?

LOL.

larry beinfest

is JACKED UP ON MAOUNTAIN DEWW!!!

This is like a video game trade.

Well played, ~~Mauer~~ Wren.

a hooter's baby - November 16, 2010 reply

I can't wait to hear Chip Carey say

“……and his name is DAAAAAAN UGGLAAAA!! That would make Chip even more annoying

for God's sake

endless Chip hate.

I like Chip ok.

if Wren can do this

maybe he can trade Barbaro Canizares and Scott Procter for Ryan Braun

Erihury - November 16, 2010 reply

Does this take us out of the running for Upton?

blitzerlover - November 16, 2010 reply

i doubt we were ever in it

(if it ever even existed)

Being reported by several sources...

USA Today, NY Post, Morosi, Rosenthal

I'd look it at this way.

Now we’re less desperate for his services. That probably means we won’t be willing to pay the Dbacks’ asking price, whereas other clubs may be willing to do so.

NOT SAYING I DON'T LIKE THIS DEAL...

…but a few caveats to consider.

1) Uggla’s wOBAs over the last four years: .345, .372, .354, .381. For a left fielder, those two odd years (2007, 2009) are nothing special. And while I realize Uggla will play second, his production effectively replaces our left field production (and maybe some of third base depending on how much Chipper plays). And the fact that his production moves to a non-premium position still doesn’t move his glove off second, where he’s no good on a staff that relies on getting ground balls. The Braves need 2010 Uggla, not 2009 Uggla, and there’s risk there.

2) There’s an opportunity cost here. Uggla is going to make $10 million or more, which really fills up the payroll, so it’s likely going to limit Frank Wren to small moves from here on out. And there’s an opportunity cost to jumping on Uggla early…if Justin Upton ends up getting traded in six weeks, I have to say I’ll feel a tinge of regret. Or a lower-cost player like Josh Willingham (for instance) might have still allowed the Braves to pursue another offensive acquisition like B.J. Upton.

The deal itself is an unequivocal steal for Atlanta in terms of talent, but is it the best deal we could’ve made in terms of actually filling our needs? I’m not sure. Maybe, maybe not, and we’ll likely never know. But there’s a potential downside to this that many don’t seem to have considered.

there are no real options after crawford/werth in FA

I don’t understand why this is relevant. I wouldn’t have wanted to sign a free agent. I’m saying that the TRADE market may have better things to offer than a year of Dan Uggla at $10 million.

i'm just saying there are a number of teams looking for OF help

realistic options: rajai davis, crisp, etc
unrealistic: rasmus, braun, upton

i just don’t know where else we could turn to get anything close to what we got in this deal (even if we have to move prado to LF)

None of the other teams looking for outfield help have the stable of young pitching that we have. Normally I’m a very level-headed analyst of trade proposals. I’d be the guy who’d say “Braun’s not going anywhere.” But we honestly have the talent in our system to really make some of these “unrealistic” proposals semi-realistic. Not saying that would have happened, or that there’s no value in moving early. But there is also value in allowing the market to develop somewhat.

And if I can have B.J. Upton AND Josh Willingham for little more than I’ll be paying Uggla…there’s something to be thought about there. If I can have Justin Upton or Ryan Braun…even if it does cost young pitching…there’s something to be regretted there.

It also doesn’t help that I’m of the opinion that just sitting on this surplus of pitching is silly. As was pointed out on this site several days ago, Schuerholz used to trade prospects like it was his job. Wren may be leaning too far the other way.

Are you kidding me with this?

This seems like you’re just trying really hard to be devil’s advocate.

Do you realize the haul it would take to land BJ Upton and Willingham?

It would’ve been a helluva lot more than super utility guy + promising LOOGY.

Get real.

Yes, it would’ve taken a lot more…I don’t know about a “helluva” lot more. But the great thing about being the Braves is…we have a helluva lot more to offer.

And two 3-4 win players are worth a helluva lot more than one 3-4 win player.

In this scenario do you just eat McLouth’s salary and let him ride the bench?

This doesn’t seem very cost effective to me.

And there is nothing more valuable in baseball right now than young, cost-controlled talent.

Will all of these dudes pan out to be the pitchers they’re projected to be? Probably not. But they still hold a ton of value.

They do still hold a ton of value! That’s exactly what I’m saying! There’s going to come a time to cash in that value, and there’s an argument to be made for doing that now.

My thing is why trade the pitching surplus until it’s absolutely necessary. Uggla fills a need in return for giving up very little. Prado I believe can adequately play LF (and fill in at 3rd if necessary) and Uggs can rake for a 2B and he is RH power (which is a definite need).

We have no real idea what sort of haul it would take to land either of the Uptons. I’d imagine it would take something significant to land Justin. Rizzo made it pretty clear it would take something big for him to trade Willingham to a division rival. Yet all of that is just speculation. I think it’s silly to get frustrated about what “might have been” when we have no idea what those possibilities actually were/are.

Focus on what we actually acquired. That is, an excellent player for very little in return for 7+ million for one season. I think this is actually a benefit for us. We just acquired an above average player who fills a need that we didn’t have to commit a long term deal to.

This is a win no matter how you slice it. Having a pitching surplus for future deals is never a bad thing.

The reason why it might be best to make a deal now is because the pitching surplus doesn’t just sit there. Some of these guys may be at their maximum value right now. Some are going to get better, but some are going to flop. Others are going to get hurt.

I wasn’t an unquestioning Schuerholz disciple by any means, but as I’ve already written, he used to trade the “can’t miss” prospects like it was his job. There’s a time to move those guys when their value is highest. And that might be right now.

Maybe not…I don’t know. But now struck me as the perfect time to match up surplus with glaring need. Obviously that’s just me.

These arguments are interesting but really when ALL factors are considered, it has to be considered the best trade that the Braves could have made this off season.

The bottom line is that that Marlins appear to have dumped Uggla. That’s it, end of story. We got him for almost nothing and he was by far the best VALUE the Braves could have gotten for a power hitter of his caliber. Be happy man… Uggla is a proven hitter as opposed to injured Lee and Glaus. What a disaster those two guys were as far as filling the Braves needs in 2010. Put Uggla in the middle of the line up and he’s going to be PRODUCTIVE for an entire season.

Yes, there are some negatives: he isn’t a great fielder and he may not stick around with the Braves after this season. If he does stick around he may cost us $10 million. But hey, you cannot predict the future. Chipper may retire. Lowe may be traded (last year of contract after potentially putting in a career year—he may end up being a hot commodity). Just throwing these out there—don’t get all uptight! Who knows what is going to happen? $10 million is not going to kill the Braves payroll. There’s always something that can be done.

Something else to consider… The Braves made this trade immediately so it gives them time to work on other trades for the meetings are over.

Except I don’t think they’ll be working on other trades anymore. Joel Sherman said on Twitter this morning, “Diamondbacks have growing belief will trade Upton based on ton of interest.” And honestly there’s no reason the Braves shouldn’t be in the thick of that bidding. Even with Uggla in the fold…they can still afford Upton’s salary.

And if they do that, I’ll be ecstatic about the Uggla deal. But I think the Uggla trade means we’ll be staying away from the Upton discussions, and I think that is/was an avenue well worth exploring. It’s too bad in my opinion that we won’t get to be a part of that sweepstakes.

Value is far less of a concern to me than total return.

Total return=replacement of a sub-par hitter in LF with a 30-HR slugger with decent slash stats.

Agreed. I think there’s a possibility we could have had:

Total return=replacement of a sub-par hitter in LF with a 30-HR slugger with better-than-decent slash stats AND good defense AND elite-player potential AND cost control for several more seasons

Or this:

Total return=replacement of a sub-par hitter in LF AND a sub-par hitter in CF with two 3-4 win players.

I never said anything was wrong with our total return. I just wonder if we maximized our total return.

I would HARDLY call Lee or Glaus a disaster.

Without Glaus, we don’t get out to the lead that got us into the playoffs, and Lee was among our best hitters down the stretch.

I would say that they might have more value to us as pitchers.

I mentioned ‘08 somewhere else in the thread, but do you remember what we had to do at SP? Forced to start guys like Bennett, Campillo, Parr, etc. It’d be a lot nicer to have a young stud ready to deal than retreads who belong in AAA>

Yeah, I remember. Believe it or not. The comparison between the two is borderline ridiculous. Then, we had a desperate dearth of pitching. This was obvious to anyone who watched the team. It wasn’t like we thought we had this massive surplus and suddenly it vanished. We were poor from the start, and—no surprise—we finished poor.

Now, we have an overwhelming surplus of pitching. This is obvious to anyone who follows the team. Holding on to a surplus whose value we can’t maximize—just because there was a disaster scenario this one time in a totally different situation—is folly. Not saying you go make a stupid deal, but ponying up a pitcher or two would not be the end of this team.

But how do we know that we won't find '12 or '13 to look a lot like '08?

Medlen went down, just like that. That fast, that easy.

This is silly logic, Mr. Procton. Then why don’t we go out and get MORE pitchers, cuz…ya know…stuff happens. And pitchers can get hurt so easily. What makes the level we’re at right now the “perfect level,” where we don’t need more, but we can’t also get by with less?

We aren’t exactly going into this season counting on Mike Hampton AND a 42-year-old Tom Glavine AND a 41-year-old John Smoltz AND Jeff Bennett. Like I said…we started poor and finished poor. No surprises. Guys are going to get hurt, and there’s going to be attrition. I get that.

But with Hanson, Hudson, Lowe, Jurrjens, Minor, Beachy, Medlen due back in 2012, Teheran, Vizcaino, and Delgado, even when you account for reasonable risks of prospects flopping or guys getting hurt…it’s an embarrassment of riches. Maybe now’s not the ideal time to cash in, but at some point, something’s gotta give. Part of being a mid-market team is having to take risks sometimes, and of all the risks we could take, being willing to deal one or two from that group seems to me a pretty intelligent one.

You don't think they were saying similar things about Reyes, Morton, and Parr stepping up and fixing that problem if they needed to?

I don’t know who “they” are, but I sure wasn’t. I’ll go back through my stack of old Baseball America handbooks later, but I’m pretty confident that at no time did Morton or Parr ever rank anywhere close to even the Top 50 prospects in baseball. Teheran will be close to #1, and Minor, Delgado and Vizcaino are all going to be in the conversation.

You’re really not helping your cause trying to make this comparison…

As I say, why shouldn’t we go out and get more pitching, by your logic?

You don't think a staff loaded...

with elite arms like those guys, plus Hanson, Kimbrel, etc is a pretty valuable thing to have, and we might want to hold on to them unless we can get a premium caliber bat in exchange?

I do think it’s a valuable thing to have, and I would hold on to them unless I can get a premium-caliber bat in return. But I think I CAN get a premium-caliber bat in return, and I think that if I don’t, I can build an offer around a lesser light like Jair Jurrjens and still get an outfielder that will at least approximate Dan Uggla.

So...

Why not get Dan Uggla and this nameless outfielder??

Literally nothing is stopping you, other than you being too dense to believe that a GM can make two big deals in the same offseason.

That’s the whole crux of your argument, and it’s a piss-poor crux to have. Especially poor when the GM involved made three trades midseason in 2010.

It’s not like FW is shy about pulling the trade trigger.

-C

Excuse me for my piss-poor crux. A GM can make two big deals in one winter. You think that’s possible/likely. I think it’s highly unlikely given
Wren’s comments and his history. I have said multiple times that if my crux collapses, I’ll be back to let you guys make fun of me or throw tomatoes or whatever makes you happy. Fine. But if it doesn’t, we’ll have something to discuss going forward.

Wait would we discuss...

your unsubstantiated theories on what may have been out there, and what we may have been able to get it for?

If that is your druthers, and it is for an awful lot of us around here, may I suggest you visit here….
http://www.talkingchop.com/2010/11/16/1818962/post-uggla-rosterbation-thread

Your theories on what may have been out there, and what we may have been able to get it for, are—alas—just as unsubstantiated as mine. I know that’s a big blow to your substantial ego, but it’s the truth.

You don’t know, I don’t know, and all I’m doing is pointing that out. I apologize for the commission of such a heinous crime, and I am pleased to know that you will take more pleasure in having browbeaten me into submission than having attempted—as I did, in earnest—to have a productive discussion.

Your time is appreciated.

Trust me, it's no blow...

I know this, that’s why i don’t post complaints about how Wren should have passed on this steal in favor of waiting for what may or may not be out there because I think we can put together a package to get someone who is a long term solution in the OF.

Also, no crime, that;s why we have the rosterbation post. I linked it because you may not know about such a magical place just yet.

I know what rosterbation is. The thread is the place where you congregate all the people who want to make laughable trade proposals. And it’s actually more laughable to think we’re still equally likely to trade for a player like Justin Upton now than we were before trading for Dan Uggla. THAT’S rosterbation.

It is equal though...

chances we trade for Upton before Uggla 0-1%
chances we trade for Upton after getting Uggla, 0-1%

All due respect...

unless you are Frank Wren or someone you wouldn’t be if your posting like this here, then what you think is pretty worthless. You don’t know what we can get for Jurrjens, or any other pitcher. You don’t know what’s being asked for in exchange for others. But you don’t know what you don’t know, so you blast an obviously great trade for some coulda, woulda, shoulda. Thank you Jack Brolin.

Annddd now this has degenerated into the ultimate worst argument…you’re not Frank Wren, so you don’t know, so what you think is worthless. Neither are you, so you don’t know, so what YOU think is worthless. Great. What an awesome discussion!

I never “blasted” anything. If you were reading closely at all, I’ve praised the deal quite a bit. It’s a great deal. I just wonder if it was optimal. As I mentioned elsewhere, I’ve been more than deferential and accepting that I don’t know all the answers, and don’t waste your time typing more if you can’t have an intelligent discussion within the confines of my admission that I don’t actually know the answer here.

See the link above...

that is the place for your wonderment.

Concur on Justin Upton.

Look at all the interest in him. Yanks, Red Sox, Marlins, Rays all reported to be interested, and we’d be just another team to have it’s offers played against the rest.

None of those teams is equipped to make the kind of offer we can make. And nothing says you HAVE to trade for Upton. You talk, you see how the market develops, and see if it makes sense. If it doesn’t, the market isn’t exactly shy of other alternatives.

Wrong...

all 4 of those teams can make some pretty enticing offers of proven, cheap current MLB players and elite prospects.

You’re right. I was overly sweeping with my statement—apologies for trying to write to fast. My point is we could match any offer we wanted to. In a free-agent scenario, where there are obvious rich guys, yeah…we’re just a team that gets played so the player can get more bucks out of the big boys. But in a trade discussion, we can muscle up to the table with anybody.

Just cause we could doesn't mean we should...

Heyward, Hanson and Teheran could probably net us a load of big time talent, but that doesn’t mean we should deal them. You’ve got no ideas what’s available, and if the asking prices are worth it.

Those three are untouchable to me. But I think even a package of guys outside of that group could be extremely compelling. I do have no idea what’s available, or if the asking prices are worth it, or any of that. I have never claimed to have such an idea.

I’m merely making an educated guess that I could make competitive offers and possibly acquire a super-stud hitter (or two separate deals for two good hitters), and if I didn’t, that I could still make a fair deal for a pretty good hitter and be at about the same place I am now. THIS IS MY OPINION. It costs you more, but the potential benefit is higher too. I’m OK with that, even if you’re not.

It's not an educated guess...

and in fact is quite uneducated.

Please delineate.

explain your request

What is uneducated about my guess?

1) I could make competitive offers for a super-stud hitter.

You don’t disagree with this. You know our depth of young talent can run with that of any other team.

2) I could possibly acquire a super-stud hitter (or make two separate deals for two good hitters).

This follows directly from (1). If I can make good offers, I stand a chance of a deal getting done.

3) If I didn’t, I could still make a fair deal for a pretty good hitter.

I still think there’ll be a guy like Luke Scott (whose numbers, by the way, don’t look all so different from Uggla’s) sitting out there who I can go get should my pursuit of Upton and/or Upton and/or Willingham and/or Swisher fail. I suppose you can disagree here, but I don’t think it’s a massive stretch. Will I give up more than Infante and Dunn? Probably. But that’s the price I pay for getting to take my chances on doing better. And I don’t have a problem giving up more than Infante and Dunn.

Where exactly is the uneducated part?

You don't know what would be deemed...

“competitive offers”, you don’t know if a “super-stud hitter” could be had at a reasonable price, or what it would take in “two seperate deals for two good hitters”.

It’s uneducated because you don’t know what’s out there available and at what cost it would take to acquire them.

You do remember the year we had to start Jorge Campillo, Jo-Jo Reyes, and Charlie Morton 15+ times each, right?

I can’t blame Frank if he wants to avoid that.

As I wrote above, TOTALLY different situation. Totally.

Good points. That’s more or less why I didn’t jump on the bandwagon of the deal. There is certainly upside, but there’s a not-insignificant amount of downside as well.

Exactly. Well put. There is risk here, without a doubt.

What risk??

Is Dunn going to become the best closer this side of Mariano Rivera??

Is Infante going to put up Pujols numbers in a single season??

Is Uggla going to fall off a cliff so far that we don’t get a compensation (Type B free agent) pick for him??

The price difference in salary is $7MM. That’s it. Infante cost $2.5, Dunn about half a mil. Do the math. We still have plenty of room available, and we can get rid of KK to increase the available payroll.

There is very little risk here, other than an Uggla injury. Even then (and call me on this if I’m wrong), his DL time won’t significantly affect his Elias ranking status.

-C

There’s no risk in giving up Dunn and Infante. That’s not the cost. The cost is the opportunity cost of trading for Uggla instead of any of several other potentially available players.

Uggla doesn’t have to fall of a cliff to not earn his hefty salary. Basically, as delineated above, his defense stays at a place where it’s weak (he’s cost about a win in the field each of the last two years) while effectively moving his offense to a place where it’s much weaker (if he goes back to Uggla ‘09 instead of Uggla ’10, he’s merely a “good” LF instead of a stud).

There’s not much room available anymore, not with the need for three bench players and a reliever, and about $8 million to play with (assuming $3 million of Kawakami’s deal gets pawned off on a Pacific Rim team).

So the risk isn’t that the deal ends up being bad. Not at all. The risk is that the deal ends up being not the best. As in perhaps a better one could’ve been made.

Nothing's fucked here, man.

No, nothing is ****ed. But there’s a huge difference between not being ****ed and being ****ed by Megan Fox. We’re not ****ed in a bad way, and in fact we’re pretty well off. But I wonder if we couldn’t be better off.

Getting an elite bat for 2B...

that should be a type A free agent next winter for a utility infielder with one year remaining and a lefty relief arm with control problems is about as close to Megan Fox f’d as it gets in baseball.

Again, you’re missing the point. Value is no concern to me. This is an absolute robbery of a deal. This is getting a pretty good girl for minimum effort. Nothing wrong with that. But that’s different from getting Megan Fox, even if you would’ve had to work significantly harder to get her.

And you're missing the point...

Megan Fox doesn’t appear to be available. She’s spoken for, and don’t be fooled by the pretty face, cause he will mess you up.

I believe we’re good looking enough to get Megan to talk to us at least. You think they’re not available, I think it’s worth looking. I guess that’s end of discussion. Neither of us has any kind of objective proof in this debate, though I’d say that the incessant Justin Upton rumors mean someone might be getting with Ms. Fox tonight.

Doesn't mean he'll be worth it either...

and who says we aren’t looking? You do, but you’d be wrong. THAT’S the end of discussion.

I think Wren’s comments suggest that the shopping for a right-handed bat is done, and I think other people who would know agree with me. But clearly you have inside sources that I don’t, and on those grounds I can concede with dignity.

Or...

we interpret Wren’s comments differently.
You take that he’s done shopping as him waving a white flag to all offers that could improve the team because he made one already.
I take the comment to mean he knows what’s out there, what’s being asked for in return, and doesn’t see us making any deals for the current asking price.

It’s two different ways of interpreting the same statements, one is just more reasonable than the other.

In your opinion, Mr. Sanchez. In your opinion, one is more reasonable than the other. I don’t think he’d turn down a great deal if it broke down his front door, but I do think he’ll be less active.

That is the problem with this discussion. While I am more than willing to acknowledge that my position is not unassailable, you are not. And that doesn’t make for good discussion.

Less active how?...

by resting on his laurels and passing on deals that both improve the team now and going forward? By restricting salary for more costly players (which does not include Justin Upton, Ryan Braun, Franklin Gutierrez, Brett Garnder, etc) that could have possibly been acquired?

Or, as my position that has been stated multiple times here, that he’ll no longer need to forced to do a potentially less advantageous trade because he got such a potentially powerful slugger for the heart of the order at such a reasonable price.

And when Ms. Fox...

Gets tuned up to the price of Gardner and Montero plus three other prospects, or Morrison, Nolasco, and three prospects, etc., we can be happy we decided to fuck someone else instead of that gold digger.

-C

IMO, that's not worth it...

considering Towers and Peavy, it’ll be Hughes, Gardner, Montero, and Banuelos, or Morrison, Nolasco, Stanton, and Dominguez.

But hey, we should have passed on a All Star slugger in exchange for a utlity bat and relief arm to spend months flirting with a tease like Towers.

Never know unless you ask. And I’m OK with having my gold dug a little bit to get with Ms. Fox.

How about teased and never getting a thing from her?

because Towers has done that very thing before. You OK with passing up this obviously steal of a deal, in exchange for something that in all likelihood never comes to fruition, and going into next season with McLouth and scraps next to Heyward in the OF?

You can still go back and get a girl who might not be quite as good. You’ll pay a bit more than you would’ve if you had just taken the first thing that came—you had to buy some other girls a drink or two in the interim, after all—but you’ll still get some.

Unless "not quite as good"=ugly because you've dicked around until 1:55.

I don’t want to dick around until 1:55. But I also might think about staying past 9:00.

That sort of thinking left us with FUGA...

Reitsma, Glaus, etc.

Thank you.

Is Megan Fox...

A free agent??

There’s not a deal mentioned before that we could have done that we can’t do now. Not a one.

Meanwhile, we just fucked (insert hot chick nearly as hot as Megan Fox, or maybe even hotter if Megan Fox gets injured at some point next season).

Megan Fox is no less available now as she was then, unless Jeter has already given her herpes.

-C

Ms. Fox may not be any less available, but we’ve already filled our bed. When we could’ve had a potentially hotter girl who wasn’t going to be that expensive to keep around past tonight, or perhaps two girls at one time. Maybe we did as well as we could given the crowd at the bar, but we sure didn’t work the room for very long.

...because Wren has been flirting up Mr. Uggla exclusively and did not so much as wink at anybody else.

I’m sure he did plenty of winking. But some of the other girls just got here and are still on their first drink. Not as receptive to a wink yet. Some are waiting to see what other guys do before they make their moves so they’re still playing hard to get.

We took the desperate girl that we saw as soon as we walked in the door. And she’ll be plenty enjoyable, but I for one, will still have Megan cross my mind if I find out that she went to bed with someone else.

you obviously fail to see the value...

Hey look! A bird in the hand!

worth much more than 2 in Ms. Fox’s bush…what?

kreese555 - November 18, 2010 reply

We took the desperate girl...

And came back to the party as soon as we got her in our room.

We’re still drinking and carrying on, not roofied and fast asleep on the bed in our hotel room.

-C

Plus, we aren't desperate for it anymore...

since we’ve gotten some already, and now we don’t have to worry about taking home that girl with herpes who’s a sure thing just to satisfy the need.

That is your opinion.

My opinion is we’re pretty well content to chill in bed with the girl we already had rather than go back to the party.

you think we could have made a better deal than infante and dunn for uggla? If you talk purely in terms of value, the prospects that we keep in getting uggla instead of upton will more than make up for the difference between the two players. Hell, we could still make a deal for a young hitter like upton (who makes less than $5 million for the next 2 years combined). The price of uggla doesn’t take us out of contention for any of these guys, and the guys we gave up for him are nothing compared to what we got.

We could probably still swing Upton's salary...

…but it would be tricky. I don’t know where you got his salary info, but Upton gets $4.25 million in 2011 and $6.75 million in 2012; a total of $11 million, not less than $5 million.

yeah, I looked at 2010 and 2011

1) I’m not talking in terms of value. I disagree that the next five years of Upton at $45 million or whatever the total is might be worth more to a team that needs another outfielder desperately now and into the future is necessarily worth more than the one year of Uggla we get plus the pitching prospects that we still have but really can’t use or maximize.

2) We could still make a deal for Upton. And if we do, as I’ve stated and restated, there will be no room left to make any criticism whatsoever of the Uggla deal. The price of Uggla doesn’t take us out of contention for other players, but the fact that we’ve already made our “big deal” likely does take us out of contention.

But still...

If you’re replacing our poor LFs with Uggla’s numbers, isn’t that a huge upgrade in and of itself right there?

Nowhere—NOWHERE—did I say it’s not an upgrade. But could it have been a bigger upgrade? Why is this so hard for people to grasp?

because we can still make the "bigger upgrade"...

if we want to do it, same as before. And the chances of that “bigger upgrade” you describe being out there is unlikely at best.

But we could have had Pujols for Canizares, Infante, and Dunn damn it!!!!

I repeat: we still have the CAPABILITY to make a bigger upgrade. But if we’re realistic for a moment, it’s not going to happen. Not after we already went and got Uggla. We have the capability but not the willingness.

I’m not one of those posters that goes around posting inane trade proposals. But maybe we could have had Pujols (or another better hitter…going with the metaphor here) for a legit haul of our young pitchers, and that might have made some sense.

If you were truly "realistic for a moment"...

you’d realize it wasn’t going to happen in the first place, regardless of Uggla.

You are so sure of these things. How do you know?

You're sure

We aren’t going to make anymore moves.

How do you know??

-C

cause I pay attention...

name me a single player even remotely similar to Justin Upton that has been traded without being either a huge off the field problem, or b) Miguel Cabrera, which was kind of unique with the owner.

I can’t. That’s why this is a unique opportunity.

an opportunity we missed how?

because he’s still out there, and we still have the players would have otherwise, and room for him, since his D is more than good enough for CF and the salary space is still available.

“When asked #Braves GM Wren if would pursue #Diamondbacks Upton, said Uggla top of their board for RH power; probably done in that area”

That’s how.

That’s from Joel Sherman, by the way.

Joel Sherman

The same guy that reported that the Dunn was on the verge of signing with the Tigers, and then had to backtrack as other reporters said there were serious talks, but no deal imminent in the near future.

Guy’s never wrong.

-C

Dude, this is him just reporting what Wren said. He’s not getting THAT wrong.

Dude, that’s Joel Sherman telling us what Wren said. He’s not screwing THAT up.

One, GMs in discussions don't often tell the truth...

and where in that statement do you see that he hasn’t inquired about Upton, or wouldn’t make the deal if he came at a price we’d be willing to part with?

If I had to guess, Wren’s probably also reluctant to get back into it with Towers after the fruitless, drawn out winter discussing a similar but even more valuable player, Peavy.

He may have inquired about Upton. You don’t honestly think that we are equally likely to make a deal for Upton as we were before acquiring Uggla, do you? We’ll still make the deal if it’s a price we’re willing to part with, but the “price we’re willing to part with” definitely went down as a result of already having Uggla in the fold. And I don’t like that…I’d still give up a boatload to get Upton. But we aren’t as likely to do that now.

And Jake Peavy is not a more valuable player than Justin Upton. Previous discussions with Kevin Towers should have no bearing when you have a chance to get a player like Upton.

0% before, 0% after...

maybe bump it up if they aren’t going to demand Teheran, Hanson, or Heyward in the package (which Towers almost certainly will). So yes, 0 = 0, and I “honestly think we are equally likely to make a deal for Upton as we were before acquiring Uggla”.

Probably=definitely?

And how many times has a GM ever said of a big acquisition, “Yeah, we’re happy to have him, but we wished we had done a lot better?”

Probably doesn’t mean definitely, but it also doesn’t mean probably not.

Wait...

we had production out of our left field last year???

This would be relevant if we actually had league average production out of LF last year.

Josh Willingham wasn’t going to come cheaper than Infante + Dunn, so I don’t really see how he relevant. Both Uptons would certainly cost a lot more (particularly Justin).

This was a great deal. Get on the bandwagon.

Yeah, but when you’re chasing the Phillies and their $150 million payroll, comparing to the horrific production we got last year isn’t exactly an appropriate standard. I get that the cost of Willingham and/or Uptons was going to be higher. My point for the umpteenth time is that I—personally, apparently alone—was willing to pay a higher price to get a better bat.

This was a great deal. I never said otherwise. But was it best? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

uggla doesn’t take us out of the running for someone like upton. We still have the payroll space and we still have the prospects.

I believe it does. In the abstract, it doesn’t. We still have the pitching and the payroll room to swing a deal for a guy like Upton (Justin or B.J.). But that’s in the abstract. Really look long and hard at the comments Wren is making, and the history of this front office, and ask yourself whether you really see them getting into the bidding for Upton after already having filled the need for a “right-handed power hitter.”

For the umpteenth time, if they do go out and get involved with or even acquire an Upton, I’ll take back everything I said, admit defeat, and be happy to be wrong. But I just don’t see that happening.

For the umpteenth time...

we weren’t getting involved in that deal with or without the Uggla deal. We are in no way inhibited from making any of the deals you are wanting because of this, and just got a steal of a deal. The potential CF deals are independent of this, with no impact whatsoever really. We still have the capacity to make, or not make, those moves as Wren sees fit. And he’s said countless times that right now, he doesn’t see a fit.

I would say to you, however...

That I don’t see another move for a CF unless Chipper announces he’s done or we somehow move McLouth. Nate will get every chance to earn his money next year.

I don't see it either,...

but I didn’t see one coming prior to Uggla either, at least not adding a bat like Uggla’s caliber.

That said, there is no reason we can’t, if a CF we like comes at an agreeable price, which was the case with or without acquiring Uggla.

Disagree.

Before, we could have gotten a CF and played McLouth in LF. LF is now filled, leaving McLouth to play CF or be on the bench at $7+ mil. And I just don’t see that happening, not to start the year anyway.

Or be in LF while Chipper is on the DL and Prado plays 3rd...

there’s plenty of ways around this, and yes, McLouth could easily be on the bench. We didn’t have a problem with it last year.

Except for the first ten weeks of the season, when we started him nearly every day.

His salary was also lower last than this, and not by an insignificant margin.

I don’t know how you know we wouldn’t have gotten involved in other discussions. You may be better connected than I, but I think it would’ve been unavoidable to talk to the Rays and Diamondbacks had we not traded for Uggla. They’d have called us.

The capacity to make moves is still there, but the willingness is not. At least in my opinion. I think the major shopping is done. Even moves like Gutierrez or Gardner, like we’re seeing on the front page…not happening. I’d love to be wrong, but I don’t see it.

How do you know the willingness was there in the first place?...

or an acceptable asking price? Or that we didn’t check the asking price before inquiring on Uggla? Or that we won’t make a move now because of Uggla?

The correct answer to all those questions is the same.

And how do you know the willingness wasn’t there in the first place…or an acceptable asking price? Or that we did check? Or that we will make a move?

The correct answer to all these questions is the same.

I don’t know the answers. I haven’t claimed to know them. I am making educated guesses and doing my damndest to provide the evidence that leads me to said guesses. I don’t think it’s exactly a stretch to think that the Braves are done making big deals this winter. Nor do I think it’s a stretch that discussions of some players are in their infancy and will advance later on in the winter.

I don’t know, and neither do you, and neither of us is going to. But I am going to wonder—and that’s all I’m doing. As I’ve said plenty of times, if there’s another big acquisition, my case is utterly, wholly, and completely invalid. Run me off the board if you want. But for now, I don’t think it looks likely.

It was never likely in the first place...

you’re starting to sound a little like the mule with a spinning wheel.

Mr. Sanchez, I obviously just don’t know as much as you. Excuse me for my ignorance. I have been more than deferential about the fact that I don’t know for sure what the answer is, and that I am just wondering (with basis, I believe) if there wasn’t something better to be done. Your classiness and respect are of the utmost caliber, and I always enjoy a good comparison to a mule. It’s really not necessary to treat me like an idiot, although it’s no skin off my nose if it helps you sleep at night.

Sounds cruel...

but if you don’t want to be treated like an idiot, you probably shouldn’t act like one.

No, there was no better trade out there. And the better players you are clamoring for are still out there, with the same resources it’d have takent to acquire them, and the same need for a willingness out of Wren and another GM to do a deal. Not a single thing about that changes.

Your certainty is both unsubstantiated and unproductive.

Wasn't just last year.

Anderson ‘09, Blanco/awfulDiaz/Swagga ’08. When your best performance at the position in recent memory came from Willie Harris and Matt Diaz, there’s probably a problem there.

There is, and my concern is that we didn’t solve it in the optimal way. Not that we didn’t solve it at all, but that perhaps by waiting and seeing, we could’ve solved it for a longer term or in a better way. All I’m saying.

+1

Would you rather have “nothing special” or Nate McLouth/replacement player?

Yes, nothing special for an average LF...

Here’s the thing, though, we’re not replacing an average LF. We’re replacing our well-below average LF production fo the past several years. Further, the story has not been written on his salary. We may end up getting a decent value on a long-term deal, or be able to prorate some of the accounting with a signing bonus. Hard to believe any other player so good could have come for such a low trade cost.

No, you couldn’t have gotten another player as good for such a low cost. No question about that. But I’m saying if we pay more, maybe we get more. And I happen to think we have more to pay.

And the value we get on a long-term deal really doesn’t factor into the trade. You’re trading for one year of Uggla. Any privilege of signing him long-term is one that likely would’ve been afforded by the market anyway…that is, if he really did want to come to Atlanta and is willing to take a discount as a result.

I would suggest that the rate would have declined rapidly.

To get a little more than Uggla would have required us paying a LOT more. At some point, both elements have to be considered. Further, I would say that a year in Atlanta to see what the organization is like can only help our chances to resign him, not to mention the year of exclusive negotiating rights we’re about to get.

And if we miss out on Uggla...

We wouldn’t get two first-round picks for doing so, without the trade.

-C

Very true, very important.

I agree. There is a disproportionality between marginal cost and marginal benefit in trading for someone else vs. trading for Uggla, considering how weak the Marlins’ return was. My whole throughgoing point here is that TO ME, the extra cost justifies the extra benefit, EVEN IF SAID COST IS DISPROPORTIONATE TO THE EXTRA BENEFIT. I don’t think that’s true to a ridiculous extent, but I’d be OK with a merely “fair” deal if it netted us a better talent in return.

I think we have a pitching surplus that’s sort of burning a hole in our pocket, and I think we have a need for a long-term controllable outfielder. I think those two things match up well at this juncture. That is all.

We still have that surplus, still have the need...

and still have the same list of candidates available. That never changes. That is all.

That is not all, unfortunately. In the abstract, we still have what we had and still need what we needed. But that’s not how the reality works.

Oh yeah, the money bit...

we aren’t spending big for a Werth or Crawford, and the money is there for anyone you are clamoring for like a Braun or Justin Upton. Neither break or budget right now, especially when you consider they’d require a Jurrjens or Hanson, among current MLB options clearing more salary room for them. So that hasn’t changed for the worse either.

I think the word you use, fair, is an interesting one.

How far off of “fair” do you think we were? I think we were several steps away from that. There’s a fair trade, there’s a slight win for your side, there’s a clear win for your side, then there’s this move. I’d rather have Uggla in our back pocket and be able to make another trade in a week, a month, a year because we spent so little on acquiring him.

I don’t disagree about the distance from “fair.” But that doesn’t say that getting a guy like JUpton or a duo like Willingham and BUpton (for instance) doesn’t justify passing up highway robbery.

Loria must have been drunk lol

MBL1 - November 16, 2010 via mobile reply

Another rental?

I checked. He’ll be a free agent in 2012.

tgthree has nailed it. This means that anything else Wren does will be small potatoes.

Zontar - November 16, 2010 reply

We’d have to deal Prado to make any further major acquisitions. Not likely.

Rental…i guess – except we traded our 3rd best LHRP and another “rental” (Omar only had 1 year left on his contract) for him. No loss there.

Kawakami might be traded, Chipper might retire if his knee doesn't feel good, Liberty may raise payroll slightly

You never knew. As it stands right now, I’m hearing the Braves have 5-10 million left to play with. Enough for guys like Rasmus and Kemp, and close to enough for the likes of J. Upton.

It blows that ownership doesn’t see the opportunity that would be available for only (to them) peanuts.

fools. fuck Liberty. this skirting around 90 mil has to go. how about 110.

hell, making it to the playoffs WITH all the injuries could have been a light bulb, if any of them were actually paying attention.

Attend games.

Attendance was more than solid this year.

When was the last time we hit 2.5 million?

get swoll yunel - November 17, 2010 reply

Attendance figures placed us around 13th in MLB last year. Our payroll on opening day was around 15th (this is not including any additions mid season like Derek Lee).

In previous years our payroll relative to our attendance was actually higher and this caused the profits to dip considerably.

Ownership’s ultimate concern is to make money. I don’t like Liberty Media any more than the next guy, but if we you want to see that payroll climb into the $100+ million territory then we need to see our attendance climb into the 3+ million territory.

OUR ownership's ultimate concern is to make money.

Not the case with individual owners.

I agree.

Hopefully they’ll sell sooner than later.

We’re not going to get anything significant in return for KK.

I was referring to the Salary relief.

Asian teams, specifically, see the value. There is value, there. And that could free up a couple mil.

Right… Kawakami was a much better pitcher in Japan than in North America. So there IS value. I’d take on $3 million of his salary to let him sign in Japan.

Even if everything else is small potatoes...

it’s still a win. We can now try and sign a few scrap heap guys (think: Glaus-type guys) without the risk that our lineup will collapse if they don’t produce.

I'm not so sure...

If Chipper gets hurt for any significant length, which would you rather have?

A: A “real” outfield acquisition like Josh Willingham or B.J. Upton or someone playing left, and Infante filling in at third, or
B: Uggla playing third and some random scrap-heap guy like Joe Mather playing left every day…

I'd rather have...

Prado at 3B and someone like Diaz/Hinske in LF. I don’t see Diaz/Hinske as being much of a drop-off from Omar.

With a Chipper injury, I would much rather have my lineup carried by Uggla/Prado/OF bat than by Omar/Prado/Willingham or BJ Upton. Wouldn’t you?

Not necessarily. Not when you consider that Diaz doesn’t hit right-handed pitching, and Hinske is a horrific defender in left field. I’m not even a huge Infante fan.

The point I’m making is that when you need an outfielder, sometimes the best solution is to…ya know…get an outfielder.

according to uzr, hinske's not that bad

i’d be inclined to believe that diaz/hinske would be superior to infante by a decent margin

It’s hard to say. But Hinske’s -22.4 UZR/150 in left is pretty bad (I understand career numbers are better but let’s not forget that Hinske’s body hasn’t stayed the same his whole career). And Uggla is likely to be worse than Infante. Whatever…that’s picking nits.

The overall point is that you’re going to pay Uggla like a second baseman with a .380 wOBA when effectively he’s a left fielder with a .380 wOBA, and that’s two different things. And for the cost of Uggla and a bargain-bin bench left fielder, you could’ve potentially had Infante, a stud in the outfield, and cash to spare.

what stud in the outfield?

obviously they are giving those things away for free

Justin Upton, Ryan Braun, Nick Swisher, Colby Rasmus, Coco Crisp, Josh Willingham, Luke Scott, B.J. Upton…

The point is that there was tons of talent potentially available. Those are just the first guys I pulled off the top of my head. I understand any one might be unlikely, but in the aggregate there’s a market there that MIGHT—repeat, MIGHT—enable you to get something better than Uggla. Don’t go comparing each of those guys to Uggla…that’s not the point.

The point is that this IS “The Move.” This is it. And making it this early means there’s an opportunity cost. An opportunity cost that tantalizes me.

I wrote above: "…if I can have B.J. Upton AND Josh Willingham for little more than I’ll be paying Uggla…there’s something to be thought about there. If I can have Justin Upton or Ryan Braun…even if it does cost young pitching…there’s something to be regretted there.

It also doesn’t help that I’m of the opinion that just sitting on this surplus of pitching is silly. As was pointed out on this site several days ago, Schuerholz used to trade prospects like it was his job. Wren may be leaning too far the other way."

That’s all I’m saying. I’m not trying to say that this trade is bad. In any way, shape, or form. But I wonder if better could have been done, and if this move had to be made now.

i really don't think many of those players are available

they’re only “available” if we’re willing to give up way too much

All it takes is a GM willing to listen…we have the pieces to make a “blow away” offer around Jurrjens, Infante, Delgado and/or Vizcaino, plus second-tier guys like Hoover, Beachy, et al. Even if lots of those guys aren’t being actively shopped, I think teams are going to be forced to take a second look at an offer like that. I repeat that I’m usually harsher than most on the pie-in-the-sky message-board trade proposals, but if we open up our cabinets, we can get some GMs to pick up phones. Even for players like Braun or Upton.

Maybe it doesn’t lead to a trade that’s an “obvious steal” like this one, but there’s simply no way we can maximize the value of our excess pitching without trading some of it. I’m open to the possibility of a trade that’s less of a rip off if it means getting a bigger return.

How do we not...

still have those pieces??

Did we give them up?? Did we sweep them under a rug?? Can them in a mason jar to store for next season??

Fact is, we have all the trade capability that we had before. We still have about $8MM to spend with KK left to toss away to add a little more payroll.

Let me ask you this…of the guys you mentioned, who makes $8MM next season?? Answer: Only Nick Swisher.

My God, folks!! We’re out on the Nick Swisher sweepstakes!!

Fuck!!

I mean, seriously??

-C

I don’t believe that Wren is going to make another big move. I’d love to be wrong about that, and if we go get a guy like B.J. Upton between now and March, this Uggla deal couldn’t be better. So yes, as far as trades are concerned, I’d say they’re swept under the rug.

And if only we could put them in mason jars to guarantee they’ll all hold their considerable trade value until next year…but we can’t. Schuerholz was great at trading guys at max value, and it strikes me that some of these guys must be at their max value. And I personally would like to cash them in.

The capability isn’t gone, but the willingness is.

Yeah, but you have no clue about the front office’s willingness to do another deal. So to base your opinion of this trade on a perceived (on your part) unwillingness of the front office to do another big trade just doesn’t seem logical to me.

I think lots of people, including lots of experts, share my perception. Like I say, if Wren goes and trades for another .350+ wOBA outfielder between now and March, I’ll eat my words—with gusto.

But I don’t think that will happen, and I really doubt I’m such a voice in the wilderness in thinking that. But please, Wren…prove me wrong.

Prado is going to LF…a .352 wOBA. Problem solved.

Two things:

1) A .352 wOBA isn’t super awesome for a left fielder.

2) Really? Prado was going to be in the lineup anyway. He doesn’t replace anyone or anything.

A .352 wOBA beats the crap out of whatever we put out in leftfield last year.

Our LF’s last year:
Hinske – .341 wOBA (aided greatly by his first 2 months)
Cabrera – .294 wOBA
Diaz – .294 wOBA
McLouth – .283 wOBA

So yeah, I think we just made an upgrade.

But merely upgrading from last year isn’t the standard for comparison here. Not when we’re chasing the Phillies and their $150 million payroll.

Disagree

After making the playoffs with a bad outfield, multiple injuries and tons of errors. With Uggla added, a slight upgrade anywhere is huge

$150 million payroll that is maxed and they have some major holes to fill…

They are still a very potent baseball team, and ignoring that is folly for Braves fans and decision makers alike. I’m not the kind of guy that likes being merely “good enough.” That’s just me, but I’m ready to build the next dynasty, and a young stud would go a long way towards that.

Yeah, but you want to trade away other potential young studs to get there….

Yes, dunnytwogloves. Yes, I do want to trade away other young studs to get there. Because we have young stud pitchers and we need young stud hitters. It’s that simple.

They may be a very potent baseball team, but so are we. Adding an all-star right handed hitter is a huge boost to this team that was in the lead in the division for much of the year.

This

It should be when you compare our results versus their payroll.

When healthy, we were not only better, but miles ahead of them.

And you don't think trading Javier Vazquez last year happened at max value?

Or Flowers before him?

I don’t see how this is relevant. Yes, I do think those things were timed correctly. So what? That has no bearing on the right timing to trade some of the guys we have now.

You noted that Scheurholtz was great at it and implied Wren was doing the wrong thing.

Those are at least two solid examples that show FW knows what he’s doing, too.

I don’t think Wren is doing the wrong thing; my mistake for implying that. I’m a massive Wren supporter, and I wouldn’t want another GM. I’m also not a bandwagoner, and I’m not jumping aboard just because Frank asked me to.

I think there’s validity in questioning whether there might not have been more options had we waited for the market to develop a bit. He knew when to trade Flowers and Vazquez, but he didn’t know when to trade Yunel Escobar (for instance). Nobody’s perfect, and I hardly fault him for sticking with Escobar but just because he got it right twice doesn’t mean he can’t get it wrong sometimes.

You also have to admit

that there is no way to know if any of those players are available or what their price is. There is no reason not to trust that Wren made the best choice out of what is available.

No, I don’t know about availability. Not in any specific case anyway. But in the aggregate, there are enough potential names there that the likelihood is you find SOMEBODY willing to listen, whose demands are amenable to your offers.

And this is just a difference of opinion, but I don’t buy the party line of “no reason not to trust that Wren made the best choice.” I like Wren and respect him immensely, but I don’t buy that he always makes the #1 smartest choice. And also you qualify that he chose from “what is available.” But by not waiting until even the first day of the first round of GM meetings is over, how can you really know “what is available”?

Because he said after this deal was done that he'd been trading names with the Marlins for weeks.

Why would you believe he wasn’t doing the same with other teams and potential targets.

Because not everyone is ready to discuss right away. Some markets take longer to develop than others. Maybe he has been talking to Andrew Friedman for weeks about B.J. Upton, but the price might be prohibitively high until Friedman starts talking to OTHER people. It takes weeks to make a deal happen, as Wren’s comments evidence, and not all discussions about all players begin concurrently.

But to suggest they definitely weren’t happening until the Winter Meetings and then started concurrently seems more than a little silly.

I don’t understand what this means. First, I’m not suggesting that all discussions began at once. I think there are players who’ll be available later about whom there have been few if any discussions right now. Also, it’s not exactly a coincidence that discussions begin when you put 30 GMs in one hotel…

And if we can get one of those...

for a utility IF and reliever with questionable control, we’ll add them. Until then “available” is a relative term.

Yeah, but I don’t think of a trade being a rip off as necessarily the most important thing. I’d prefer a “fairer” deal if it nets me a bigger return.

i think we have different opinions of infante

I don’t have any great hopes for Infante. He’s a mid-.330s wOBA hitter who’ll save you half a win a year at third base. In the abstract, I think that you could’ve found a hitter of Uggla’s caliber (at least) in left field who could play perhaps average defense.

So does the advantage of Hinske’s offense over Infante’s offset the two wins (at minimum) you’re losing on defense by playing Hinske in left and Uggla at third? Your opinion is up to you, but I have my doubts.

you still make the trade either way

it was such a steal that you just take it. if we traded uggla right now, we could get more value than we gave up

Saying “we could get more value than we gave up” implies that Frank Wren is a genius and the Marlins’ front office are idiots. I’m not saying that our guys aren’t smarter than their guys, but it’s not THAT big of a disparity that we could literally turn straight around and trade Uggla for more.

I think we probably could.

IMO, the Marlins wanted to get out from under the 10 MM price tag and everyone else knew it. They’ve tried to trade him for a while, and eventually just had to unload him.

Agree to disagree here. They still had other bidders, and I believe they were rational enough to take the best offer they had. And it’s not like the fact that he’s a Brave now instead of a Marlin is going to bring better trade offers and new suitors out of the woodwork.

they were desperate for a reliever and probably for a guy that could fill his infield spot. If you don’t pidgeon hole yourself like that, you probably could get more.

Do you really believe they were rational enough to take the best offer...

…or even knew what the best offer was? They signed John Buck (aka Buck for a buck in fantasy circles) for 3 years/$18 million on the same day. I’d say the Buck contract is prima facie evidence that they don’t have the faintest clue what they are doing.

This is really an irrelevant discussion. Because we’re not going to turn around and deal Uggla right away. It’s a good deal, no doubt about it. And if I were the GM, I’d have made it in a second and gone right back to the bargaining table with the Diamondbacks or Rays. And sure, see what other people are offering for Uggla…if you get an offer you like, take it and if not, keep him.

But that’s not how I see this happening in reality. We’re done with bargaining tables, since we filled our need and we’re content. It’s not the deal itself that I’m uncertain about; the deal is a steal, plain and simple. It’s the mere fact that we made a deal at all, without getting a longer look at some of the other bargaining tables.

And yet your position is so definite on such an uncertain matter.

My position is actually extremely indefinite. My position is that we are allowing so many factors to remain indefinite. My position is that we can’t say very definitely that Uggla was the best deal, since we didn’t allow the market time to develop. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn’t, and it certainly wasn’t a bad trade. But could it have been better? I don’t know, you don’t know, and neither of us is ever going to know. But I’m the kind of guy who wonders.

That’s all I’m getting at here…read into it whatever else you care to.

Your position is...

“We don’t know anything, so don’t do anything.”

Thanks, prospective GM!! That line of thinking may get you the best player, but it just fucked you out of the best deal. And it did nothing to help or hurt your chances of getting the best player, either.

-C

This is a massive straw man, and you know it. ’Nuff said. On to posters that have more constructive criticisms and more complete understanding of my argument. Thanks for the effort though.

Your original argument though...

is a “massive straw man” with regards to the Uggla deal. But I do applaud your effort, especially with the Baumer.

How is it a “straw man”? I’m not simplifying the situation…in fact, I’m attempting to explore facets of it that others seem to be more willing to ignore. Quite the opposite of a straw man.

The notion that my argument is “We don’t know anything, so don’t do anything” is patently false. Even a poster so condescending as yourself can see this. Much more accurately, my position is that “it’s possible we could have done better, and it’s possible that said possibilities were worth exploring, and that we could have explored them at relatively low risk.” That’s a straw man.

Much more accurately, my position is that "it’s possible we could have done better, and it’s possible that said possibilities were worth exploring, and that we could have explored them at relatively low risk." That’s a straw man

.

So wait, your argument is, or is not a strawman?

I think, in your infinite wisdom, Mr. Sanchez, that you can figure out the answer to your own question. Do you think I made a typo or actually just called my own argument a straw man?

tgthree - November 18, 2010 reply

Not straw man...

As much as it is semantics.

The overall difference of what I said and what you’ve said, on the whole, amounts to putting lipstick on a pig.

I’m not grossly misrepresenting your statements, I’m just dumbing them down to their bare essentials.

-C

Inaccurately dumbing them down, unfortunately.

Same principle as Soriano last year.

Do you really think nobody would have offered more than Jesse Chavez for him given another couple months (or even weeks?)

Why would they have? Our leverage was no different on Day 1 than Day 100…we had to move him by Opening Day whether we liked it or not.

I think that you could’ve found a hitter of Uggla’s caliber (at least) in left field who could play perhaps average defen.se

Not on the free agent market (unless you count the MUCH more expensive Werth or Crawford, or much more questionable Ordonez, Ramirez, etc) or on the trade market for the cost of Infante and Dunn.

No interest in free agents. Trade only. And I’m willing to give up more than Infante and Dunn. But apparently, that’s just me. I see no reason why we need to sit on the ridiculous pitching surplus we have.

Pitching surpluses...

have a way of working themselves out. I’d be willing to move some as well, but it takes two to tango, and we don’t know what other GMs are demanding for Wren for their players.

The pitching surplus isn’t going to “work itself out” if we are afraid to trade any of it. Not saying we won’t ever, but here was a pretty good opportunity to at least EXPLORE it, and we didn’t. Does that make this deal wrong or bad? Hell no.

All I’m saying, and all I have been saying, is I might’ve liked to see a little more time allowed to find a tango partner. Because with Uggla in the fold, there won’t be any more dancing until next winter at least.

Because we don't want to...

injuries, etc will “work itself out”. Trades during next season “work itself out”. If we want to move for a CF, we still can. Just cause Wren says “I’m done” doesn’t mean he can’t entertain offers, just like Kevin Towers saying “I’ll listen for Upton” doesn’t mean he won’t respond saying “and then…”

If we move for a center fielder like B.J. Upton, this deal is absolutely dynamite…except that there isn’t really money for that anymore. And maybe there is another time to utilize the excess pitching depth…but maybe this is the best time also. And I would’ve liked to see the market develop so we could better evaluate if this was the time to move or wait.

actually, there is enough money for Upton

If we go and trade for either Upton between now and March, I rest my case on the Uggla deal. Unequivocally. But I don’t see it. I’d love to be wrong on this, trust me. But I think Wren is done for a while.

upton is only owed 0.5 million this year. Plenty of room in the budget. If we don’t make the deal now, we wouldn’t have made it before the uggla trade.

We may have enough money...

…to fit in Upton’s salary, but Upton is owed $4.25 million this year. He got $700 K last year. I don’t know where you are getting your contract info from, but it is completely and wildly incorrect.

If that were true, I’d be on board with the Uggla trade 150%. But it’s just not true. The Upton deal and the Uggla deal, while potentially independent in the abstract, are actually highly dependent.

There were four other teams that were in on Uggla.

If we waited, we would have missed out in exchange for a fleeting chance that we might get a better player.

Where we disagree is that said chance was “fleeting.” I think there was a fairly substantial chance at convincing somebody to deal a young stud, and even if there wasn’t, I think there were other players comparable in value to Uggla out there who we definitely could’ve gotten.

Would it have cost us more than Dunn and Infante to get those other players equal to Uggla? You bet it would have. But that’s a surplus price I’d have considered paying in exchange for getting to explore the market more

And what if Uggla had been snapped up by somebody else and a good deal never comes along?

Do we then trade a Teixiera haul for another hitter who can’t carry us to the playoffs because we saw the market disappear?

My assessment of the market—my PERSONAL assessment of the market—is that there was enough talent floating out there in some state of availability, that had a mega-deal fallen through, you’d have been able to make a reasonably-priced deal for someone who could have helped approximately as much as Uggla. Not a rip-off like this deal, but a reasonably-priced one.

Part of this assessment stems from two primary areas of disagreement with other posters:

1) My view that we can and should trade some of our young pitching because we can’t maximize its value, and someone will be willing to give us an asset we can maximize; and

2) My view that there’s actually a fair amount of risk in Dan Uggla that others are glossing over.

What risk??

Injury?? A down season??

You can’t really account for injury. He’s not been injured in the past, has played in at least 145 games each season. He’s about as durable as you can find, in this regard.

Down season?? Is that season better than Infante’s?? Based upon his past performances, an unequivocal yes. His worst season is worth nearly as much as Infante’s best.

-C

You’ll need to read all my posts to get a fuller view of the risk. In a nutshell, though, it’s that you’re keeping Uggla’s defense at a position where it’s still going to cost a win a year, while effectively moving his offense to a position where a repeat of his 2009 season instead of his 2010 would mean merely “decent” offense.

And risking that he will be merely decent as an offensive “LF” is taking a risk that we only improve significantly as opposed to improving greatly.

And I think it was worthwhile to see if we couldn’t have improved better than greatly. Clearly that’s just me.

It's not "just you"...

what’s “just you” is thinking we won’t do it because we’ve already done this. It’s just you saying if an Upton, Span, Ellsbury, Gardner, or other young, cheap, long term answer to CF is available at an acceptable price to Wren, he won’t make the deal even though we still have both the surplus pitching AND salary space to make the deal.

But what is an “acceptable price”? If you ask me, the “acceptable price” changes as a result of the Uggla deal. Wren becomes less willing to give up lots of value to get a guy like Upton or Upton.

And I think those guys are worth giving up lots of value for.

If Uggla repeats 2009, we still get a 3 WAR player and two high draft picks.

If we don’t trade for Uggla, we get a 3 WAR in a best-case scenario and a single draft pick. And Dunn.

When the downside of the first deal exceeds the upside of the second, you’re in pretty great shape.

-C

Yeah, but we might, maybe, possibly have been able to pay a lot more to get a player who was a little better, like 3.5 WAR! All because that stupid Frank Wren refused to talk to any other GMs about trade targets he found attractive. What an idiot!

But in the interim, you get the privilege of exploring deals for guys that may be five-win players far into the future, or for two 3-4 win players. I think there’s value in said exploration. I’m fine if you don’t.

Haven’t called Wren an idiot at all. Not once. In fact, the first words I wrote in this erstwhile attempt to find productive discussion—so elusive on the Internets these days—were, in all caps, “NOT SAYING I DON’T LIKE THIS DEAL…” followed by “…but a few caveats to consider.” If that’s not the definition of allowance for other opinions, I don’t know what is.

Aren't you always going to look better in those terms?

You’re ignoring the potential that the better players we trade away become 4, 5, 6 WAR guys themselves.

No I’m not. I’m saying that’s a risk I’m willing to take. It was a risk John Schuerholz took time and time again, and it paid off most of the time. You can’t win ‘em all, but we came damn close. But right now we’re not taking chances, so they can’t pay off.

if it hadn’t been for the emergence of beachy, we would have been up shit creek at the end of last year, even with starting pitching being the biggest strength of the team.

Wren has proven that he’ll deal starting pitching depth (vazquez) when he needs to fill a hole and he’s also willing to deal prospects (lopez) when he needs to make a push (lee).

But you can’t compare this year to, say, 2012, when we’re going to have Teheran, Delgado, Vizcaino, and Medlen returning to the hill. We already have six legitimate starters, and the surplus is going to get even more profuse in the near future. Smart teams convert those surpluses to address other areas of need.

I see what you’re saying about Wren’s willingness to deal, but I personally believe that he and the front office feel that they’ve made their deal and now they’re finished.

I really hope you eat your words ;-)

There’s plenty of time to make ANOTHER trade. Come on: Wren was making deals all off season and during the season.

Maybe it won’t be a big trade but we might pick up some good deals.

The thing that will tick me off is Wren not spending much more. We still have a few million to spend. Depending on how you look at it, I swear the payroll might have been the lowest it has been in years and that’s why Wren kept making deals all year. Now if we don’t take on any more payroll, it might even be lower than last year.

This team needs at least one more hitter and I’d like to see someone in CF.

We still need a fourth OF who can play center...

…in case McLouth sucks again or in case Chipper doesn’t make it back (moving McLouth to left and Prado to third) and probably a bullpen arm or two. We have the money to get those types of players, either through trade or free agency.

I hope I eat my words too. I really do. I really hope we go get B.J. Upton still (because we still can) and I’m made to look like a fool and I get all kinds of hell for my worry over this Uggla deal. I really do hope so. I’ll admit I was wrong with gusto.

But I just don’t see them making another impact deal. We’ll pick up some small pieces along the way for the bench and bullpen, but nothing big. That’s my view, and I hope it’s wrong.

Not Wren's choice.

He’s not the one signing the checks.

Who says we're afraid?

Did we not flip three pitchers for Derrek Lee?

We did, and I should make more allowance for an in-season deal. But I don’t see there being more dancing this winter. And I think more dancing could have been done now, since we can’t now say how attractive our outfit will look to potential dance partners after months of playing baseball.

Boys and girls don't just ask themselves on the afternoon of the dance.

It’s not like GMs simply don’t talk if they’re not face to face.

we were not getting a 30 homer 100 rbi guy

that wasnt going to cost us an arm and a leg in either money or prospects, anywhere else.. there was no left fielder you were gonna get that could do that.. and not only that
but uggla has been consistent about it, he is close with fredi, and theire is reason to believe he will have that year again next year unlike the risk involve din a lot of theseother guys who are up and down

Does the discussion even matter in that there's no reason we shouldn't expect Chipper to play 100+ games?

No, it doesn’t really. It was a pretty useless tangent actually. Doesn’t change the essence of what I’m saying.

Actually, it does have relevance now that I think about it, in that the more Chipper plays, the more Uggla’s production ends up playing left field instead of third base. Third base is much more charitable to him.

Career numbers are not only better...

But they’re the only way to look at UZR. Less than 400 innings of data for that stat are almost meaningless. And how are you taking paying Prado not much at all to be a great hitting 2B, 3B, or OF?

On Hinske and UZR: Then we throw UZR out the window and look at the fact that Hinske is a 6-foot-2, 235-pound bowling ball of a man, and conclude that he’s probably not a very good outfielder. In this case, career UZR is just as misleading as season UZR given that Hinske was once much slenderer.

On Prado: I don’t understand what you mean. We were paying Prado not much at all to be a great hitter anyway. Relevance?

So a team's budget is viewed in totality.

And in that we don’t have any huge payroll drains outside of McClouth, then adding an expensive player who will produce at or beyond his salary just isn’t all that indefensible.

It’s not indefensible at all. In fact, it’s highly defensible. My question is whether we couldn’t have added a cheaper player who’ll stay longer and produce ABOVE his salary. Or two players who are moderately expensive and together contribute more than Uggla.

Never—NEVER—have I said this trade is “indefensible.”

To answer your question...

perhaps we could, perhaps we couldn’t, but none of us will ever know aside from Wren and people similar. And we still could do a deal such as that if Wren is so inclined, the only difference is we might have a little less cash available (but considering you’re wondering about a “cheaper player”, we still have enough cash available for said player), but also be less desperate to spend an unreasonable amount for them since we have already addressed the need with a suitable option at surprisingly low cost.

“Perhaps we could, perhaps we couldn’t, but none of us will ever know aside from Wren and people similar.”

And this is all I have been saying this entire time, in spite of your best efforts to turn this into some kind of personal humiliation for me.

“And we still could do a deal such as that if Wren is so inclined…”

I do not personally believe that Wren is so inclined.

If that is "all you've been saying"...

why do you keep crying about how we wasted our chances at something greater? I thought that was what you were trying to say this entire time.

And “so inclined” means if the asking price is reasonable to Wren. The only difference now imo, is a little less salary room (which eliminates no one you are talking about), and we’re least desperate to overspend or go after someone with a few more warts like say Mike Cameron or Carlos Beltran.

We didn’t “waste” our chances at something greater, because we didn’t know that said chances existed. But we did pass up our opportunity to explore that, and I wonder if said exploration would not have been a good idea. That is all.

Frank Wren just weighed in

“We’d like to talk to him about a contract extension.”

Yes, we would indeed.

where are these supposed Wren quotes coming from? freaking twitter?

Master Gondeee was on a conference call.

no shite.

for reals?

Si senor.

gondeee better ask if Wren ever reads talking chop.

I see him up there with that laptop….smiling. lol

“Heh. That kid has no chance with McCann.”

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha… Wren reading talkin’chop??? yeah right… Not in a million years!

You might be surprised.

sddbaker - November 17, 2010 reply

/girly squeal

MBL1 - November 16, 2010 via mobile reply

Really?

The prospect of paying a player with old-player skills $13 million or so per annum through age 35 makes you girly squeal?

I’m thinking it makes more sense to let Uggla walk at the end of the year and enjoy the draft picks rather than pony up $50 million to keep him…

Take it easy...

and we don’t know how much it will take to get Uggla. Let’s just celebrate today, shall we?

The whole point I’m making here is that I don’t think there’s as much reason to celebrate as you do. It’s a good deal, but I’m not entirely convinced it was the best deal.

It's a great deal for us.

At the very least, we have his great bat for one year and then get two draft picks. Let’s just cross the bridge of a potential contract extension when we get there.

There is substantial risk here. If Uggla repeats 2009 instead of 2008, you’ve got a $10 million second baseman who’s not doing Derek Lowe or Tim Hudson any favors with his glove, and who has effectively filled left field with a rather unspectacular .350 wOBA.

The deal itself is great for us….no doubt about it. But we have more pieces we can give up, and I’m wondering if we shouldn’t have considered giving some of those up to do even better than Uggla.

Kind of hard to argue something that COULD have happened isn’t it? I mean, we may never know any of the specifics of any other potential trade. We can’t do that from our armchairs watching TV right? I can argue a lot of things too but the deal is done now and we aren’t going back. Can we move on and talk about what CAN happen?

Speculating ad nauseum will get you nowhere.

Just sayin’…

You think we can getter a better bat for Omar/Dunn?

OMAR/DUNN FOR PUJOLS

DAMNIT WREN YOU GOT SHAFTED

No. I think there’s a POSSIBILITY we should have paid more and gotten more.

Youre making the assumption that something better was even available

You don’t know that for sure.

No, I don’t. But just as there’s value in moving early, there’s value in letting the market develop. And there was enough potentially available that waiting a little longer might have been a risk worth taking. Especially when you consider that our stable of young arms can start a lot of conversations.

Good teams don’t wait for the market to develop. Good teams set the market.

Justify this, please? I disagree. Tell me the Phillies don’t regret jumping out and signing Ibanez for 3/36 two winters ago when Bobby Abreu sat unsigned for months after that. I guess you could counter that the Phillies are a good team, but they have the financial resources to make those kinds of bets. We don’t.

Setting the market CAN be a good strategy, but your presumption that it is AUTOMATICALLY the best strategy requires significantly more justification.

I think the other teams that were in discussions on uggla that waited for the market to develop are really sad right now.

1. Well, if you wait for the market to develop, you lose all of your leverage against the player

2. If you wait for the market to develop, you lose out on other players on the market

3. If you wait for the market to develop, you can potentially find that the market set itself outside of your range.

Sure, the Phillies may or may not regret signing Ibanez – he worked out pretty well for them last season.

The arguments on both sides of this are way too simplistic.

It depends on the year and the market. If you move early, like the Phillies with Ibanez and then the market shows that it is a buyer’s market, you screw yourself by moving early (although in the Phillies’ case they certainly weren’t going to sign Abreu, that bridge had been torched). On the other hand, if the market turns out to be a seller’s market, the best position is to move early. So, you are both right sometimes, and both wrong to claim that the situation is always the same.

The Phillies didn’t set the market by signing Ibanez. Just because someone makes a move early doesn’t mean that they set the market.

So in a year like this one, with so few available impact bats...

This was probably a great move to make, huh?

I disagree that there are “so few available impact bats.” I think our stable of young pitching can get a helluva lot of GMs to pick up phones.

Agreed. I’m merely trying to point out that setting the market isn’t necessarily the best strategy. It can be, and it cannot be. Neither is universally better, like Mr. Incredubil suggested.

If you really believe that it's possible

then there is no reason that it can’t still happen. I dont think Omar/Dunn being gone would kill a deal like that and we still need a CF.

We cant eat enough salary as before, but we could if we can dump KK/McLouth.

Anyway, my point is that we could still possibly make a move like that and even if we don’t, the lineup looks pretty decent right now.

I don’t see how we still make a move like that, with probably $8 million max to spend—IF we offload $3 million of Kawakami’s salary—and still needing three bench players and a reliever? I don’t think there’s any space to go get another “real” bat.

There isn’t. For better or worse, ladies and gentlemen, Uggla is your big bat. There are no more reinforcements riding in over the next hill, he IS the cavalry.

At this point...

The team doesn’t see a need for a CF. They need to put McLouth somewhere, and that’s the only spot left.

I swear, I think that we could have traded for Albert Pujols and the way you are acting, you would think we made a bad trade.

Well, infante WAS an All-star…

PUJOLS IS TOO OLD

JESUS CHRIST WE ARE GONNA RASCALS FOR THIS TEAM

This commenting system makes it difficult for my thoughts to be read completely, since my initial post is hundreds of comments above this. The trade is not bad in any sense of the word. It’s a steal. But was it “best”? Hard to say.

And if we’re honest for a moment, yes I think the Braves have the pieces to make a deal for a player like Justin Upton, who very well could be the next Albert Pujols.

How is (hypothetically) acquiring a guy who is only owed $500,000 next season affected by this trade? I don’t understand this at all. If Frank Wren wants to go after Justin Upton, that is a totally different ballgame. You’re looking at this all wrong. We still have all these assets that we could give up for a cost controlled CF. You really think that if Frank Wren thinks he is able to negotiate a fair trade for Justin Upton that he’s going to decide not to cuz he’s “all traded out” for the offseason? The fact that Frank Wren said he’s got his big piece and is only going to look at complimentaryt pieces is probably the strongest evidence that he WON’T do that. He has not been one to show his hand.

J-Turn14 - November 17, 2010 reply

It wouldn't be.

However, Justin Upton is owed $4.25 million in 2011.

Yes. I do think we are “all traded out.” That’s been the front office’s approach for a long time. This was Wren’s goal—to get a righty stick. He did that and now he’s done. At least as far as major moves are concerned. I’m not the only one who believes that.

Said it once, I’ll say it again…if we go and get in the thick of the Upton sweepstakes, I’ll gladly—GLADLY—eat all my words about this Uggla deal. We still can afford Upton, in talent and in treasure. But I think “all traded out” is exactly what we are.

We know it’ll take around 50 mil or more. He just turned down a 4/48 offer, so he’s not at all off-base here.

Maybe...

but we need to remember he turned down 4/48 from Florida, not us. Would you want to play for the Marlins?

I’m not really thinking about next year, to be perfectly honest.

I don’t see a compelling reason to extend him. I’d rather take the daft picks and look for a real outfielder come 2011 offseason.

Fair enough.

MLBTR now reporting the Marlins kept increasing their offers right up until they dealt him, but he never backed down from 5/71. That’s way too much.

Sounds to me like someone didn't want to play in Florida anymore.

Although, to be fair, both sides maintain that he like being there and would have stayed if numbers had worked out.

The sticking point was also reportedly the years, not the money.

+1

you’re just being contrary. The braves gave up very little for a right-handed, power-hitting all-star with a good relationship with our new manager. Beat that.

I was joking, jeez

MBL1 - November 16, 2010 via mobile reply

That was sooo clear from the two words in your comment. There’s plenty of genuine girly squealing going on in this thread, so telling joke from truth isn’t so obvious as you’d like it to be.

wow

We already know he'll be expensive.

Just turned down 48m/4 from the Fish. The other thing is that his glove barely plays at 2B, so I hope that during these talks, Wren politely suggests that he may want to consider a move to the outfield or something.

Prado improved his 2B play from awful to mediocre here. Why can't Uggla?

i'll take a year of uggla for 10 million and then draft picks please

Second'd

I think I would too

but again, let’s see how he does in 2011 first.

OK, so when he becomes a free agent...

we offer arb, he declines and goes elsewhere, then we get two picks in return which can hopefully become as good as a utility player and reliever. So you give up 2 players for one season of great slugging and 2 prospects. Good deal.

PhuckthePhillies - November 16, 2010 reply

Question, what’s his nick name for TC?

Not sure

we’ll need some time for this one.

The Danhammer? Uggla the Juggla? Glausosaur?

Ugglasaur

I like it already.

Does Ugglasaur have haters?

He does, and they love him.

Really?

This inspires me for a Paint project!

In my mind, it’s exactly the same graphic, but with Uggla’s head hastily supered over Glaus’.

I’ll get on that. But I’ll have to save it for the season.

How many more days is it until Opening Day 2011?

Honestly, I’m glad the season ended when it did. The stress of the postseason was a doozy. And with a new job, a move and the holiday season coming up, I’ll be grateful to get away from baseball for a little while.

I’m embracing this offseason wholeheartedly.

Sure, sure mr. I got a mac and don’t have paint

MBL1 - November 16, 2010 via mobile reply

lol

I still have my old piece of crap Dell. I can break it out.

Hmmm….
You know what this means.
Nickname contest!

MBL1 - November 16, 2010 via mobile reply

Uggs? Mountain Man?

Real POWAH?

Uggz

These?

Oh good lord no. Surely we can come up with a nickname that doesn’t conjure memories of those silly things.

Tell me about it.

He always

looked like a lawn gnome to me. I go with Lawn Gnome

I second "Lawn Gnome"

Make it happen TC

Moe

...

Maybe, just maybe. I see a resemblance

"I wanted TV ugly...

not Uggla ugly. Mary Anne on Gilligan’s Island ugly, not Cornelius on Planet of the Apes ugly."

Aww. Poor Dan. He’s not that unsightly.

LMAO. Oh my god...

there’s already a new MLB 2k11 commercial out, and it’s of McLouth getting dominated by Halladay.

the MLB2k

series sucks anyways The Show is better

Erihury - November 16, 2010 reply

I know

I just find it ironic that McLouth would be on there.

Had to choose somebody.

pwned

MBL1 - November 16, 2010 via mobile reply

haha… I just saw this. I had to take a double take because I saw the #24.

Uggs Jugs?

Please let some buxom young Atlanta women make this into a fan group at Turner Field.

plus one million

+1000000.

rec'd

This thing on Roy Halladay on MLBN is fascinating

Pretty incredible.

Oh, Frank just returned the button back to me....

Wonder how much Fredi influenced this trade

haha. nice.

who’d have thought that they could have used that one, so soon?

Jose Rodriguez - November 16, 2010 reply

Call the cops! Wren is on the loose!

Wren soon to be on MLB Network

DANG i need to get MLBN

MBL1 - November 16, 2010 via mobile reply

when? 5 min soon? now?

yay hes on

He's on now...

says their #1 priority was a right handed hitter who could hit 30HRs…

If Chipper isn't ready...

Prado will play 3rd.

If he is ready, Uggla at 2nd, Prado in LF and Chip at 3rd.

word. that works.

again, Uggla’s D is better than it was even 3 years ago. and I think he’ll be looking forward to less………..team drama, shall we say.

Prado's was pretty bad when he got up to the bigs.

Guess now we know where his place is...

Now lets hope Wren can lock him up....

Only not to our detriment.

meh

I dont really want to lock him up. Pastornicky could start at 2B in 2012 after Chip retires and Prado can play 3B

what do we do when agon is gone?

bleh

i just dont feel signing Uggla long term would be good for the team. He’s not that young

how old is he? couldn’t be over 33.

He’s 31, but he’s not a guy you’d want playing second for us for the next five years. Let him and Chip go, and that ought to free up the dough to get a SS and an OF, with Prado at 3B and Pastornicky at second. With that kind of money you could get a better-than-Gonfailez-but-not-superstar SS ofr 5 or 6 mil then get a true impact outfielder with the remaining 15+ mil.

I guess if it was at the right price

I wouldn’t mind the Power he would supply.

Celebrate.

THIS

I knew this was coming... :-)

TWSS

wow. that’s low. even for you

?

the TWSS. Pretty low. Even by your standards

You know, sometimes when a man sets ’em up, you just gotta knock ’em down.

Not really…it is pretty much a perfect twss opportunity.

Fine, you win.

/banned for winning

Or Myke Jones

...if he's not a utility player and nothing else.

That’s a pretty big leap in projection.

“Chipper and McCann are ecstatic”

Instead the Marlins used their available money on....

John Buck – $18 Million over 3 years for him??? Really Florida, really?

He hit 20 home runs last year. That’s more than anyone on the Braves not named Brian McCann hit.

He also has a career OPS of .722 and wOBA of .311.

He also did that in Toronto…..

...some of it.

And with the shit they’ve had at catcher lately, why not? It’s not that outrageous.

a hooter's baby - November 16, 2010 reply

Marlins asked for Prado

and they were told to put down the pipe

seriously?

thats BOSS

Wren REALLY told them that?

MBL1 - November 16, 2010 via mobile reply

I think this summarizes my feelings

as for me

lol, so your feeling is that we should upgrade to pro today because the bandwidth has been exceeded?

FUCK

Hawks lost…

KINGSLYTUT - November 16, 2010 reply

reply fail...meant for above one

KINGSLYTUT - November 16, 2010 reply

No, you did it right.

Click the up button.

rec'd for Kellen Moore

Reppin my Gem State!

kreese555 - November 17, 2010 reply

via twitter

jcrasnick

The Marlins asked for Martin Prado in exchange for Uggla and were told no, then shifted their attention to Infante, says a source

how could they covet prado and agree on omar and dunn?

a hooter's baby - November 16, 2010 reply

Omar Infante is "taking his talents to South Beach"

I miss that guy already

hahaha +1. But yeah, I’m gonna miss me some Imahotep

ahahahahahahahahhhahahahha

sorry marlins fans, you just got wrenned

jerryclore - November 16, 2010 reply

looks good to me

I’m anticipating the lower half of the picture.

that's kind of...

normal….

I wonder if this is how Hanley feels

secondfh - November 16, 2010 reply

lol

rec’d

I can confirm Uggla looks great in a Braves uniform on MLB The Show.

I can confirm Kinsler looks even better.

Whoa. For a second there, I thought I typed that.

Whoa is right- not what I meant. My point was if we’re comparing fantasy second baseman acquisitions, I prefer the Kinsler deal I pulled off to any though of Uggla.

This is the most sexy Braves related thing since this:

Sexy in an awesome way, not a sexy way a la Hinske or Heap

(last gif. I promise)

SouthernPanther - November 17, 2010 reply

YAY FOR GIFs

MBL1 - November 16, 2010 via mobile reply

still my favorite walk-off strut ever

even though it wasn’t a walk-off HR?

TonyAlmeyda - November 17, 2010 reply

My mother's commentary on that trot:

Fail, sorry

“Look at that little fat boy hit the ball. I bet he was excited he didn’t have to run around them bases.”

l0stnumber - November 16, 2010 reply

If I made this trade in OOTP 11...

…I would feel guilty, like I was cheating the computer.

mnesos - November 16, 2010 reply

I apologize for doubting any of the trade suggestions I read about Justin Upton. I will now spend my time fearing the mind control powers that your GM obviously has, while crafting a hat from aluminum foil that I can only hope will shield Kevin Towers during any trade conversations.

kishi - November 16, 2010 reply

7 ERA bullpen detected

offer marek for upton

lol when it is accepted

dbacks gave haren away

why not upton, right?

Different GM at the helm then

I wouldn’t be surprised if Haren is part of why DiPoto didn’t get the full-time gig.

kishi - November 16, 2010 reply

you're right. i forgot about that.

i enjoyed hearing the “joe saunders is a WINNAR” statements though.

Here’s to competent GM’s.

To be honest, Towers isn’t all that bad. He was straight up stupid with Peavy, but a big reason the Padres broke out was because of all his work developing and drafting pitching talent.

And Clayton Richard has been the best P...

in that deal since.

I forgot he came over…I guess the Peavy trade wasn’t all that horrible. Still could’ve gotten more from us though.

Ouch.

Low blow.

lol

Hide yo kids, hide yo wife and hide Justin Upton, because Frank Wren is ~~raping~~ killing every team out there.

+1

king of games - November 17, 2010 reply

If the Braves can bring back Eric Hinske

This will be offseason of the century.

Agreed Bring back Hinske, Utility IF, and lastly a CF with some speed

I agree, Braves now need to turn their attention into trying to acquire that R. Davis guy from the A’s. A’s have Crisp for some reason they still value him LOL. Davis would be a good addition and we would not again have to give up any of our untouchables or elite pitching prospects to acquire him; unlike if we went after BJ Upton with whom we would almost certainly have to give up someone higher up but no Teheran.

I would luv for us to get Upton but Davis seems like a more likely acceptable trade at this point for ATL and the A’s. Hinske needs to return as well, otherwise look for us to get W. Helms back in an ATL uniform for the Vet min salary. Helms is not Hinske, but he would be a slight bit cheaper. STILL THOUGH I CANNOT FREAKING BELIEVE THIS STEAL OF AN UGGLA TRADE !

Helms signed with Florida through '11 in August.

FineHamAbounds - November 16, 2010 reply

Two words: Bad ass.

1-2-3 no tradebacks! The Marlins front office has to be sitting there going, “wait, what just happened?” Let’s sign him long-term and enjoy having a power/cleanup-type hitter the likes of which we haven’t seen since Andruw Jones was good at baseball.

Frank Wren just proved that rosterbation is not a waste of time, and that anything can happen.

Rosterbation gives us something to do in the offseason

MBL1 - November 16, 2010 via mobile reply

So we really...

can get Braun for Kawakami, McLouth, Beach, and Schafer?

sigh

If Logan had worked out, we’d really be sitting pretty.

He still might – a la Josh Hamilton

Yes, but if he takes that long...

…he probably won’t still be with us. Ask the Rays about Hamilton.

HUGE difference in problems there

Kinda sorta not really. Hamilton had drug problems. Logan ALLEGEDLY had HGH issues (I don’t believe it, but for the sake of the evaluation I’ll let it go). Hamilton had injury problems, and so does Logan. Both are 5 tool players. Josh has more power, but it isn’t like Logan is a weak hitter. I think the similarities are striking.

I don't consider HGH and recreational drug abuse in the same light

nor do I feel Hamilton’s multiple naggings injuries compare to Schafer’s potentially career destroying, never healing wrist.

So different drugs of choice and different injuries. I can see now how they are remarkably different from each other and in no way comparible.

HGH, performance enhancer.
Cocaine or whatever else Hamilton used, not so much.

One is physically enhancing, the other deteriorating. One for “fun”, the other for physical side effects.

And injuries, one so debilitating he may never be able to play at the same level or swing a bat effectively. The other nagging joint problems that the guy can clearly play through, and play through at an extremely high level.

And you don’t think the social benefits of performance enhancement, physically and otherwise, are viewed as “fun?” Why do you think dudes who do nothing but go to the club and work at a tanning salon take ’roids when their athletic careers have been over since high school?

You just like to argue.

A guy with a history (fair or not) of drug (recreational or not) use, injury (nagging or severe) who projects as a 5-tool player who apparently doesn’t live up to early expectations.

How can you deny the similarities?

Because imo...

Schafer’s injury is singular and more damaging to his career since he may not be able to play at a MLB level again, which is something that clearly is not true about Hamilton’s injuries.

Also, imo, a player who quits using the drugs Hamilton was using should see their performance improve, sometimes improve significantly. A person who quits using the drugs Schafer was accused of using, should see the performance decrease.

How can you deny the differences?

I’m not denying them. Nor did I ever say that Shafer was a mirror image of Hamilton. I said that thier situations were similar – meaning that there are differences.

That's not what similar means...

and in fact, “different” is the opposite of “similar”.
sim·i·lar
[sim-uh-ler] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
having a likeness or resemblance, esp. in a general way: two similar houses.
2.
Geometry . (of figures) having the same shape; having corresponding sides proportional and corresponding angles equal: similar triangles.
3.
Mathematics . (of two square matrices) related by means of a similarity transformation.
Origin:
1605–15; earlier similary < F similaire or ML similāris, equiv. to L simil ( is ) like, similar (akin to simul together; cf. simplex) + -āris -ar1

—Related forms
sim·i·lar·ly, adverb
non·sim·i·lar, adjective
non·sim·i·lar·ly, adverb
qua·si-sim·i·lar, adjective
qua·si-sim·i·lar·ly, adverb
self-sim·i·lar, adjective
un·sim·i·lar, adjective
un·sim·i·lar·ly, adverb

—Synonyms
1. like, resembling. See same.

—Antonyms
1. different.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/similar

Umm...who used the word "different?"

If I get a car that is exactly the same as your car, but with tinted windows and a novelty plate, are they not “similar” because of their “differences?” That’s the argument you’re making.

horrible description of the argument

So different drugs of choice and different injuries. I can see now how they are remarkably different from each other and in no way comparible.

For 4 players, he should be able to get Braun and Escobar.

I think this trade made a lot of people rostercum…

…I have gone too far…

wow

A STEAL Uggla for Infante & Dunn are the Marlins crazy ?

What a great trade, Infante was gonna more than likely walk after this upcoming season and his value has never been higher. Dunn was someone the Braves liked but he was never gonna replace Venters in our Bullpen. Eric O’ can now stay whom the Braves like better anyways and Dunn was good when he was on but when not he was a walking batters machine.

Are the Marlins crazy ? They didn’t get enough for D. Uggla that is for sure. A bullpen live arm that is wild more times then not, and a Ultra great Utility player that had a career year but more than likely is never gonna have happen again in his career and that is ALL ? That is all you got FLA for the once face of your franchise, Marlins fans consider yourselves screwed or taken in this one.

Braves soured on Dunn and Infante was sold after the best year of his career regardless if this is a one year fix or if we we sign him long term which seems likely I hope this is a trade I would make 99-out of 100 times.

Frank Wren makes another great steal of a trade. GO BRAVES !

New Manager-New Direction, Chippers Replacement if signed Long term. I cannot wait for next season now.

Utility IF, is now on the wish list of the Braves, but they an way easier to find then Power hitting RH hitters. One year but I think we lock this guy up, Something the Marlins couldn’t do.

I think...

…they just decided to move the whole team to Atlanta.

mnesos - November 16, 2010 reply

Heck yeah they did

Do the Marlins even have a team left, I mean they have no manager, no fan base, and now no face to their franchise. Ramierz doesn’t play hard every game and is never gonna reach his true potiental b.c. of that. Uggla was their power, grit, heart/soul.

I still am in shock. LOL

Freaking Great day to be an ATL Fan. Now just lock up Uggla long term something the Marlins couldn’t do.

This was a classic John Schuerholz highway robbery trade.

I haven’t seen a deal this lopsided since the Mariners traded Rafael Soriano to the Braves for Horacio Ramirez.

Wren’s learned well.

I’m going to miss Omar; I really liked him. I bet he gets an ovation when he visits Atlanta.

TonyAlmeyda - November 16, 2010 reply

Standing ovation

we don’t come close to the playoffs without him.

+2

Agree, on both points

Though we probably don't collapse so hard down the stretch with a real everyday player in the lineup.

Whats Uggla's contract situation as of now?

KINGSLYTUT - November 16, 2010 reply

Final arb year

probably will earn 10 MM. Then free agency next year.

He's a free agent after 2011.

Final year of arbitration. He made $7.8 million in 2010. After a 30+ homer, 100+ RBI season, he’s definitely going to make at least $10 million in 2011.

The Marlins offered him a 4-year, $48 million extension that he declined and prompted them to trade him.

Uggla’s camp wanted a guaranteed 5th year. I don’t think giving Uggla a 5-year, $60 million deal would be ridiculous for Atlanta. It would be a lot more reasonable than the deal Derek Lowe got.

Just about to say the same thing.

5 years – $60 million sign this cat long term today and pay him the cash. No Chipper after next season frees up another $14million in cash. Plus trading away KK for whatever (salary relief of another $3million)

All we need is to bring back, Hinske, find a Utility IF, and last try and find a CF with some speed like R. Davis mentioned in earlier blogs from the A’s.

I wonder if we could still land Upton from the D’Backs Now. If we got both Upton and Uggla and gave up nothing as far as untouchable talent or elite prospects this would be the best offseason in ATL history.

I don't care if we sign him or not.

If we don’t, he’ll very likely be Class A and we can get the picks.

He requested $71/5

My feelings on this trade:

10-4 - November 16, 2010 reply

Bubb Rubb!!!!

NICE!

You’re here. Now we just need Smoltz’s Beard to get off Xbox and we’ll have a complete thread!

Brilliant. Just BRILLIANT!!!

BravePhin - November 16, 2010 reply

Great trade for the Bravos!!!!

wisco - November 16, 2010 reply

So wait,

is it Ugglasaur, Lawn Gnome, or Moe?

Or is it rather Mr. Lawn Gnome, Ugglasaur who looks like Moe?

Lawn Gnome has my vote

Are you guys sure you don't want to more stupid contraction play?

DaUgg has a nice ring to it don’t you guys agree?

Uggla Betty.

My favorite so far.

How about we just call him "The Ugg"

Dangla-Mash?

kinda like Bangladesh? Dan-Uggla-Mash? No? Anyone? dannggg

How about

Sluggla

like slugger

For some reason

My mind immediately goes to a Snuggie.. probably just me though

LOL

I love that you felt the need to explain that it was like slugger.

lolololololol

Well he wouldn't want anybody to think he was calling him a slug.

Michael Scott is impressed with the trade

This trade

just makes the earlier trades that netted us Infante and Dunn look even more epic.

To recap:
Jose Ascanio + Boone Logan + 1 terrible year from Javier Vazquez = Arodys Vizcaino, 1 good year from Will Ohman, 3 good years from Infante, and 1 year of Dan Uggla (we’ll just forget about Melky for now).

Seriously, that is hardcore.

But Frank Wren is a crappy GM who's also a Yankees fan...

I just looked at my post again.

I’m still flabbergasted. We gave up 0.9 WAR (all from Logan… he can still add to that) to get 4.8 WAR (all from Infante; Ohman and Cabrera cancel each other out) PLUS a top pitching prospect PLUS an all-star, 30-HR infielder. (B-Ref WAR)

It’s hard to believe that such things are possible, but good to know that our team makes smart decisions most of the time.

+1

I’m absolutely in shock right now.

Did Wren make the Infante/Ascanio deal, or was that still Shuerholz?

Wren, I believe.

He took over after 2007 season; that trade was in December ’07

Yep.

What I love is that technically the JJ/Hernandez for Renteria deal was Wren’s too. I know JS probably set it up, but still…

Whoops, forgot the 0.4 WAR that Dunn provided this year.

Even better for us.

He was pretty great for us once EOF went down too.

Anyone else checked out the groundswell of anger over at FishStripes? All three of those guys are pissed, as their five comments will bear out… xD

Haha, yes.

I saw that one dude declaring himself done with the Marlins for good and thought “Shit, there goes 10% of their ticket sales.”

And 35% of the merchandise sales. They’re gonna tank.

I clearly love this deal like the rest of you, but I think we should hold off before we pay the guy serious cash for an extension.

The dude does have old man skills that tend to decline and his defense at 2B is nothing to write home about… and he’s on the wrong side of his prime.

Let’s see how he does this next season and see what we have and then go from there.

I expect that to be the exact course that Wren takes.

You and your voice of reason get out of here!

/sarcasm

Seriously though, I am right with you. Extending him seems like a pretty bad idea for the long term.

If we get a big year out of Uggla for ~$10M

and then two draft picks for Omar Infante and Mike Dunn, I’ll be pretty damn happy.

I’d take Uggla on a 2 or 3 year deal, though.

3 years, 36 million

That’s about it, but who cares about 2012 and beyond. We just got our RH cleanup hitter and didn’t have to deal any top prospects. WIN!

3 years would keep him in Atlanta until he's 34

and that’s when he’ll start to decline in a hurry. That might work.

Insufferable schmuck...LMAO!!

Love the new sig, but yeah…3 years and not any longer. If not, well, I’ll take 2 draft picks after the 2011 season.

Well…3 years including this upcoming year. And as you mentioned, 3/36 seems pretty fair. Just depends on what Uggla wants.

To be honest, I don’t think the money matters all that much. I think he just wanted to get the hell out of Florida. I know I would.

Might not matter...

But he’s not singing that song. Just wanted to get his five year deal.

Not wanting to extend him =/= one year of him is bad. There aren’t any contractual red flags in having him this year, but there are a whole bunch if you start looking at trying to lock him up long term. That’s all I’m saying.

Well if we sign him to a 3 year deal for ‘11, ’12, ’13, would you be okay with it? I feel like we finally have our big bat and I don’t want to just have it for one year.

I'm fine with those 3 years

I still think we need to make a move for an Upton, though. That moves McLouth to 4th OF, Prado in LF, Upton in CF and Heyward in RF.

If the money works out, if I’m FW, I’m still on the phone with either the D-Backs or Rays.

I mean, I’ll stick by what I said earlier- I’d rather take the draft picks and find an outfielder. I don’t want to have to live with his iron glove at second for the next three or four years.

I don't think you'll have to, because

after Chipper retires, I could see him shifting to 3rd base.

GAAAAAAH!!!

Because that’s SUCH an improvement. Pardon me, I must clean my brain matter off the wall.

LOL

Ya can’t really hide him anywhere else. 1B is sorta taken for the next, oh, decade.

I hope you mean Prado...

Nah I meant Uggla

but I see your point.

Here's my thinking

Chipper will be done after 2011, so we’ll have a lot of cash to spend.

Keep Uggla at 2nd and move Prado to 3rd and look for an OF with the money from Chipper.

It should perhaps be noted...

That Heyward’s bat will only get bigger and bigger as the years pass.

He seems to believe he can get 4 next winter.

Haven't been paying much attention....

Any chance we still resign Hinske?

In who I trust…

SuperNewb - November 16, 2010 reply

More likely than Diaz.

The OF versatility is helpful.

Wouldn't this be fun to watch?

M Young CF
M Prado LF
J Heyward RF
D Uggla 2B
B McCann C
C Jones 3B
F Freeman 1B
A Gonzalez SS

+1 for Matt Young

We can afford him! LOL

Matt Young as the 4th OF sure

I am all for M. Young making the Braves but starting and leading off as a rookie CF no way. Braves just need to eat a portion of Nate’s contract similar to KK’s and deal him or include him in any deal that comes up next. Cut your losses with Mr. Mclouth as well as KK. R. Davis would be a good affordable CF for the Braves next season .

M. Young as the 4th OF is almost or has to almost be a lock at this point but starting him, UMMM that coud get dicey without a fall back option and NO I don’t consider Nate that option.

Go Braves.

I realize Young would not be allowed to lead off, or start for that matter. I can’t help it, I watched him a lot this summer, I’m a fan.

Here's the thing:

Kawakami has shown himself to be no worse than average as a major-league starter. McLouth hasn’t shown that for close to two years now.

not true...

he was at least average two years ago, and down the stretch this year.

That was, what, a few weeks?

It's a part of your said two years...

significant parts if you include 2009, where he’s been league average.

McLouth hasn’t shown that for close to two years now.

Holy shit!!!!

We just robbed the Marlins. Absolutely. Freeking. Robbed. Them.

So what is the strategy now?

Prado serves as LF and super utility, since subbing in at 3b, 2b, and 1b, are more primary positions for him than left.

We then need a back up corner outfielder, this player would play every time any of 1b, 3b, 2b, or rf was subbed, so it would be a priority that he was really solid.

It is also a priority that he hit lefties well since of those positions, there is little disparity in the splits of the 2b or 3b (uggla, prado, chipper) but more against lefties for Heyward and Freeman.

This is why I really hope we keep Diaz as the primary back up corner outfielder, who will actually get a lot of at bats since he comes in and prado shifts for almost every substitution besides ss or catcher. His at bats will be against rh and lhp but will be weighted naturally (whether it is diaz or not) toward at bats verses lefties.

I still dont predict we get rid of mclouth, so i think now he is our primary cf. We will need a back up CF, and it only makes sense to get one that also hits well against lefties sicne mclouth is not good agaisnt them.

We next need a back up short stop, preferably one who is a dominant defender who can replace uggla at second (leaving gonzalez who is a great defender) and shutting down our middle infield in late game defensive situations.

We have to realize that our outfield defense is mediocre. Heyward is great, mclouth is average, and we can expect prado to be around average in left. However, when we want to turn on the defense, if our back up center fielder is a star defender, then we move mclouth to left and with heyward in right we have one of the tightest outfields in the game.. combine this with a defensive substitution at second and with gonzalez and freeman in we have an amazing defense when thats what we need.

Without these two substitutions, we are average in defense at the infield and outfield with two plus defenders at SS and 1st and two average defenders at 3b and 2nd.

Now all the primary substitution needs are filled with a corner outfielder (i vote diaz), a center fielder, and a defensive middle infielder. Just three subs fill the second spot in the depth chart for every field position.

With the space this clears on the bench, I would really love to see a third catcher, so that david ross can become a big bat off the bench in pinch hit situations. This gives us one key pinch hitter, I would also resign Hinske who serves as the primary big bat off the bench (hinske and ross are two pinch hit weapons to be envied) and also an occaisional sub in left (or platoon with diaz in the event an infielder goes down and Prado replaces him)

Wren said Mathers will replace Infante, but not hit like him!

Forgot about Mathier, or however you spell it

Plays both corner OF positions and 3rd base. There’s your super utility guy.

Krabs Medallion welcomes Joe Mathiers to the family.

LOL...nice sig

I couldn’t help myself. Too many people keep mentioning that as an option, and it’s the most ludicrous thing I’ve heard since Obama said there were 57 states.

I was merely trying to hide him someplace, but

I understand your point, as mentioned earlier.

The only places you can really “hide” people in the NL are 1B and LF. You don’t wanting to be stashing your iron gloves over at the hot corner. That’s a recipe for losses and disgruntled pitching staffs.

So what the hell is SF doing with Pablo Sandoval?

My guess would be...

McCann
Freeman
Uggla
Gonzalez
Chipper
Heyward
McLouth/acquired CF
Prado
Bench of Ross, Conrad, Mather, McLouth/acquired CF, backup SS (Diory, Hicks?)
Rotation of Hudson, Hanson, Lowe, Jurrjens, Minor/Beachy
Bullpen from Kimbrel, Venters, Moylan, O’Flaherty, Proctor, Martinez, free agent signing like Rauch, Putz, Qualls, Gregg, Wood, etc, then Hyde, Marek, Beachy/Minor, Ortegano, Gearin, Cordier, etc.

I'm on board with JJ Putz

We sign...

one of those relievers, and a bench player perhaps, but no need for more than 2-4 cheap veterans. Everything else we’ve got internally, or can go get with internal assets. The big question left is CF, that can be McLouth. Otherwise, it’s filler or salary dumps.

Putz and Hinske

How hilarious is it that

we might need an Overflow thread because of this trade?

2nd biggest SBN baseball blog

and that’s just because Lookout Landing is filled with FanGraph writers.

is A's Nation up there too?

Holy cow

I didn’t even realize they had so many comments in the threads. Those damn Bay Area folks are dedicated.

I know TC has been the #1 blog on occasion, and Lookout Landing, Bleed Cubbie Blue and Amazin Avenue get visited a ton as well. I hadn’t seen A’s Nation mentioned very often, but I’m sure they’re up there.

Yeah, we officially freeking rule!!

Smoltz's Beard - November 16, 2010 reply

This is relevant to my interests.

Look who decided to show up....

HOLY FUCK HE'S BACK

PhuckthePhillies - November 16, 2010 reply

N00b

Yakker - November 16, 2010 reply

What’s with all the Justin Upton talk? Is there a rumor we might get him or something?

There has been some talk

but I’m not so sure this trade changes things. FW said they’re going to concentrate on some small acquisitions like bullpen and bench signings.

This is Amazing.

Good strategy by getting rid of the number 1 brave killer to and adding him to our team

OPS of 1.031 at Turner Field the last 3 years.

Not to mention that was against BRAVES pitching.

king of games - November 17, 2010 reply

FYI Chip Carey doing sportsouth commentary for the Bulldogs basketball haha

instantly hoped he would mention uggs

awesome trade for my bravos!

sepulcher - November 16, 2010 reply

Fish also traded Maybin... crazy

Glass Half Empty Guy says

So I guess this means we’re not offering arb to Lee.. ;-)

WOOO!! Awesome trade by Stone cold killah Wren.

Yakker - November 16, 2010 reply

Now I sorta hope the Yankees get Crawford

because then FW can have a chat with Cashman about Brett Gardner.

It would be unlike the Yankees not to get Crawford

I hope they get involved

and then we can trade a guy like Beachy or Minor to scoop up Gardner.

I’d love to think we’re still in the game for either Upton, but I think it’s doubtful.

All the talk I ever heard about Crawford never mentioned the Braves

Right

I didn’t say the Braves are involved. I said I want the Yankees to get him so we can take the leftovers (Gardner).

oops misread upton for crawford, the uptons are a mystery to me, but most thigns under Wren are so who knows

No worries

If the Yanks miss out on CLee

Then they would need a 4/5 starter. They could get Crawford for LF, Granderson in CF, Swish in right.
We could deal Beachy and a prospect for Gardner. Problem solved.

Are you kidding me?

Infante and Dunn for Uggla? Shit. Great Job Frank Wren. I mean damn. He knows how to get stuff done. Damn. wow

So here's how I see it now...

We already have a potent starting lineup and one of the better pitching staffs in baseball, but we need to start improving defensively. It’s pretty awful.

I propose we go after Adam Everett in the FA market. The guy is an animal at SS, he’s only 33, and would be a great fill-in for Uggla once we had a lead in the latter innings. $1M would probably get it done and he’d solidify our infield defense.

Besides him, I really think Wren should push hard for either Brett Gardner or Franklin Gutierrez. Both would probably cost a few prospects, but seeing as we didn’t give anything up for Uggla, we could afford the loss.

Thoughts?

With you on the defense, and co-sign the OFs you mention. But Isn’t Diory a good defender?

TradeAndruw - November 16, 2010 reply

I think Hicks is better...

Hernandez may be Infante Jr, decent bat but not much power or walks, decent glove all around the diamond but not gonna stand out anywhere.

Welp

Look about, meh, 5 posts up, and you can see what I think about getting Gardner.

At SS – I’d like to have a guy like Everett, or maybe even Diory as an internal option.

Ah...I see it now

and I kind of forgot about internal options. Hicks is a far superior defender than Diory, though.

But...

much worse at the plate

True

I’ve always loved Everett for some reason. Similar to Polanco.

You're talking about your love for the two, not their abilityi, right?

Jurrjens for Gut, or for Garner and that SS we reportedly liked?

and I could agree with a defensive focused SS, although Hicks or Hernandez could fill that gig.

I would like to think we are still considering options for CF, like a Gardner or Gutierrez or one of the Uptons, depending on if the price fits into an acceptable range.

I hope you're right

because we didn’t give up any prospects in this deal, and it seems as though we can afford either Upton.

Sell KK to that Japanese team for the extra 3 million bucks.

I still hope that...

whatever has KK being blackballed gets cleared up, and someone like the Mariners, Diamondbacks, Royals, etc come to their senses and realize 20-30 starts out of Kenshin Kawakami is a lot better than their other options, and worth $5+m.

It'd be nice

even if we got next to nothing for him.

He makes so much sense with the Mariners...

Kawakami, Jurrjens, and Hoover for Gutierrez? For Milton Bradley and $5m?

Milton Bradley and $5m?

DO. NOT. WANT. In case I’m not being clear, allow me to reiterate. DO. NOT. FUCKING. WANT.

THIS

leedawg - November 16, 2010 reply

lol

yup.

JJ, KK and Hoover sounds pretty damn fair. No thanks on Bradley though.

Oh I know he does

I definitely don’t want Milton Bradley.

Ya know who’s available….Jose Lopez. Can play 1st, 2nd or 3rd. Good pop (although he had a terrible 2010 season). Didn’t they release him?

I think so

That would be a nice add, boys and girls

bench guy, RH hitter, plays multiple positions and probably can be had on the cheap because of the season he had in 2010.

Could platoon with Freeman vs. LHP’s too.

Freeman will not be in a platoon, but Lopez would be a very nice bat off the bench. He probably could find a starting job though

I would think...

with Uggla, Prado, Conrad, among others similar, there’s no real room. We need guys capable of helping at CF and SS, of which Lopez can play neither.

Jerry Hairston...

…would fit nicely.

Option declined.

Seattle decided $4.5 mil was a bit steep.

Everybody would like that, in that it would mean we're not counting on McLouth.

…but he’s gonna be in the opening day lineup.

Get out of my head!

Seriously, those are fine ideas.

Hicks?

Not sure if he can hit well enough. Everett is at least decent and proven with the bat.

He was really bad this year, even by Everett standards, but I wouldn’t mind him as a late-inning glove man only.

defensive replacement

That is all we would need him for

exactly,

he would rarely ever have to hit.. better to get the best glove for a guy that rarely is needed to hit than get a guy with a solid bat and less than amazing glove and never use the bat

Proven how, exactly?

Dude’s OPS the last four years is 592 (!!!)

Just need defensive CF and offseason accomplished. I don’t want any crazy Upton mega-trades now. Maybe Benoit or someone in the pen.

TradeAndruw - November 16, 2010 reply

What about R. Davis from the A's ?

A cheaper than BJ Upton idea ? What about R. Davis from the A’s he has a lower OBP but he has speed, and he is still pretty affordable. Uggla is really the only big trade ATL will do this offseason. Upton from the D-Backs would be nice but doubtful now, unless they would take Mclouth in the deal. R. Davis for a S. Marek type pitching prospect would be fine with me in CF next season. PLus Davis from the A’s has a ton of speed stole what 50 bases last year or something ? Correct me if I am wrong.

Frank Wren is a genius

now

trade Lowe and sign Crawford

trade Lowe?

And where would Crawford play?

He’s a LF

CF?

Again

LFer

he could play CF

Forgetting Mclouth

thought I’d rather not have him there

I believe he was the best LF defensively last year. While there will be a drop off, I wouldn’t care with the offense and pitching we have

realized we still have Mclouth and now Prado in LF. Damn. Well Frank Wren could still make it happen. Find a taker for Lowe and Mclouth and then sign Crawford

OT: I feel sorry for you people

I’m getting to listen to Chip Caray do play-by-play for the Georgia Colorado basketball game… Be Jealous!
/sarcasm

leedawg - November 16, 2010 reply

i forgot that was on tonight.

thanks for reminding me!!

It's been a good game

If Chip Carey ever says

“AND HIS NAME IS DANNNN UGGGGLA!”

I’ll shoot my dick off.

LMAO!!

I’m out everybody…talk to you tomorrow.

I'm confused

Just two days ago, gondeee was saying how we should pass on Uggla, and today he’s the greatest thing since sliced bread. If it works, I’m all for it, but I don’t understand the sudden turnaround.

That said….Welcome aboard, Dan Uggla!

tshubert - November 16, 2010 reply

2 days ago,

We thought that the Marlins were sane.

frozendesert - November 16, 2010 reply

It's bc of the price

The Fish were wanting a ton midseason, and all of sudden, FW told them to suck it and just gave them what he thought we could part with. Loria coward in fear and had no choice but to accept

Both Gondeee and CAC said we should pass on Uggla

but that was way back when we figured the Marlins would want more than a utility man and LOOGY for the best offensive 2nd baseman in baseball.

I just hope..

this doesn’t come back to bite us in the butt at the end of next season, when we will still need to sign (or re-sign) a power hitter, and may have to deal with Uggla thinking he’s a star. Plus, I just loved how versatile Omar was last year. I was able to attend Bobby’s last game at Wrigley (and what became Lou’s final game), and watching Infante smack two dingers was pretty sweet.

tshubert - November 16, 2010 reply

But next year we'll have more money...

possibly Lowe can be moved, saving $15m. Chipper’s $13m comes off the books, as would Uggla’s ~$10m. McLouth’s money comes off the books, as does whatever we pay of Kawakami’s. You’re looking at $30-45m coming available, with a deeper market of bats including Michael Cuddyer, Rickie Weeks, Nick Swisher, Jose Reyes, Jose Bautista, Aramis Ramirez, Josh Willingham, Jason Kubel, David Dejesus, and JD Drew, among others potential FAs.

Dunn's going to be better than a LOOGY.

I'm fist pumping

Dont judge

judge

RSA: 5.3
USA: 5.5
UKR: 5.4
CAN: 5.3
GBR: 5.5
ITA: 5.7
GER: 5.6
FRA: 3.3

Damn French judge

touche my friend

touche

Derrik Lowe

Now it is time to trade Derrik Lowe and get a good Starting pitcher? Lowe Blowed A Lot of games last year and if he comes back I Hope he is better? Uggla was a good move by the Braves. People will seeit too.

jayball - November 16, 2010 reply

I’m flabbergasted.

Hudson's Soul Patch - November 17, 2010 reply

Oh god!!!

I hope you don’t speak a lot of English.

This.

SOMEWHERE....

Fredi Gonzalez is not only laughing his head off, but getting quite drunk doing it.

frozendesert - November 16, 2010 reply

me and him both

Bench & Uggla.

well now we can shift to looking at our bench. Granted we lose on base percentage, and slight defense with Omar out the door (which Sucks Omar did alot for this Team but he is in a different class from Uggla) and now we need to find a good utlity IF.

Conrad is gonna return, and Hicks/Diory do nothing to excite me – so why not bring back J. Thurston. Sucks J. Thurston never got a shot to be with big league club this year and is no a minor league free agent but he does have a very good glove which is really all we need at this point. Bring back Hinske would be nice in the neighborhood of $1-1.5 million range but signing W. Helms a former Marlin and Brave back to the ATL roster whom can play 3B, 1B would be great plus Helms would cost slightly less than Hinske.

Bench more than likely next season:

D.Ross, B.Conrad, W. Helms, and J. Thurston (if not Thurston then Diory-Hicks is just nothing special in my book).

GO Braves. Hinske needs to return to ATL and acquiring Uggla may weigh heavily on his mind when he looks at his free agency opts at different clubs. Wren already said the Braves want Uggla to remain here long term but the Braves want to get to know him first.

Once Uggla return from his Mexician vacation he is gonna be locked up to a new contract personally it is rumored he wants 5yr – 60million range pay it and here is why. D.Lowe if he has any type of decent year is gonna be traded after 2011 season to make room for Teherean in MLB. Mclouth is gone at the lastest at the end of the 2011 season and KK is gonna be traded this year, plus Chipper is in the final year of his deal at $14million, Braves have the money to sign D. Uggla long term and it is gonna happen very quickly I have a feeling.

Uggla wants the 5th year then give it to him. True RH power hitters are to hard to find and on the free agent market for around $60 million you can forget it.

Love the trade Fredi is sticking it to Mr. Beinfest in Miami at this very moment.

I think Mather will be on our bench, from the way FW talks

Damn sorry

Forgot about Mather and M. Young.

Braves real bench for 2011 opening day :

D. Ross, W. Helms, M. Young, J. Mather, B. Conrad, J. Thurston

Looks pretty damn good to me! I can’t wait!

He'll be the first guy to come in for Freeman/Chip

Assuming Prado is in LF. Plus, he’ll provide us with a RH bench bat. Conrad was MUCH better LH last year.

I'd guess he'd go to the OF and Prado would move.

I would find it hard to believe Thurston would want to come back having been given no shot to play in the bigs, and Helms signed for next year with Florida before the season ended. Oh, and Uggla was asking for $71/5.

I have to assume a Thank You card is on the way to Charlie Manuel

From the Braves FO…..for obvious reasons. THANKS CHARLIE, NOW WE MUST DOMINATE YOU!

When I saw the trade on the ESPN bottom line

and it said roughly “Braves trade for Dan Uggla, give up Infante and Dunn”, I immediately thought that they left out the prospects, a la “Braves trade Vazquez for Melky”, so I immediately wondered who else we gave up. Little did I know…

Well done, Wren.

soup du jour - November 16, 2010 reply

I thought the same thing

I got a text from ESPN and thought they had just left out a major prospect till i jumped onto TC. Then the clouds parted and the sun shined down, and all was right in the world.

It's a great feeling isn't it

Knowing that FW pulled off the biggest heist of the off-season

Love the deal. Makes me believe the Braves aren’t done.

Omar was simply great here, but the Braves needed some pop. Wish you the best Omar!

Welcome to the team Uggla. You are truly needed and wanted here.

And for those wanting either Upton bros. Please, no. Uggla has some pop, but strikes out a ton. Both Upton brothers strike out as much if not more. Just no. I loved the Braves patience this year and willing to take walks.

Sparhawk - November 16, 2010 reply

I retract my statement on Justin. I didn’t realize he had such a nice OBP. Not that it matters since it’s not on a scoreboard.

Sparhawk - November 16, 2010 reply

That doesn’t completely invalidate your statement though. Justin’s OBP is much more palatable than BJ’s, but both of them still strike out roughly 30% of the time.

No, but the whole statement was not correct anyway.

It would have if high strikeout rates correlated to low OBP’s. They do not particularly do so. Plenty of players have tons of both walks and strikeouts. Hell, Adam Dunn’s patience leads to increased strikeouts—-I can’t recall how many times I have seen him wrung up on a borderline pitch that he just refused to swing at.

Just looking for our CF now

Hmmm…. is there anyone willing to take Mclouth off our hands? Or is he a “clubhouse” guy that Wren wants to keep around?

No, he's not the clubhouse guy we want to keep around.

He’s the guy we keep because nobody else will pay him and we have to.

Agree.

$7 million for him.. ouch.

Not so crazy once upon a time...

He put up 8.7 WAR between ’07 and ’09.

None of the above.

LEastCoastBears - November 16, 2010 reply

Good move

Like many here, I wasn’t keen on acquiring Uggla, thinking that the price would be ridiculous. This deal is, however, one that I like. Omar Infante will be missed but I don’t think his AVG is sustainable. Mike Dunn is a luxury for the Braves.

Infante's .355 BABIP w/16% LDs would tend to agree.

I stand correctetd.

I called Wren out in other threads for saying he didn’t want to trade from our position of strength (pitching) arguing that if you aren’t trading from your position of strength what the hell are you trading from? Apparently, you get a power-hitting right handed bat for nice spare parts. Nice parts, but spare parts.

Sorry, I can't resist

I really did this...

Posted on here earlier that I was fist pumping..

Yeah I saw that

I thought you got screwed by the judges, personally

so

the Marlins apparently asked for Prado first for Uggla

I have to assume that Wren just gave them a look, without saying a word, and they pretty much forgot about that idea, and moved on to Infante

What happened to Diaz for the bench?

Hinske is apparently more likely to come back than Diaz.

Matty just doesn’t have a whole lot of versatility for a bench guy.

I’m not so sure. He is our emergency catcher.

Ha.

i like it…we got the right handed bat…with some power…
i was fist pimping as soon as i heard, Uggla puts up the #s we need!
is it possible we get another solid piece to add, or are we don shopping?
We need to replace Omar…

radamez85 - November 16, 2010 reply

Fist pimping…interesting concept.

Green Lantern J.S. - November 16, 2010 reply

Behind Cano and Utley

Uggla is the third best second baseman in the league!

offensively. haha

Yeah, darn, he's only, like, fifth overall.

P.S.: That’s ahead of Prado.

Thank god we don’t have to get Pat Burrell now.

jjb5574 - November 16, 2010 reply

6 one, half dozen the other. Both are right-handed power bats, and both lay defensive eggs at their respective positions. All else being equal, I think I’d actually prefer Burrell in a vacuum. A defensive egg in left is easier to absorb than a defensive egg at second base.

J-Freak - November 17, 2010 reply

"All else being equal, I think I’d actually prefer Burrell"

ATLandUNC - November 17, 2010 reply

[turns off computer]

ATLandUNC - November 17, 2010 reply

J-Freak...

…you left out the fact that Burrell isn’t as good a hitter as Uggla. Sort of important one to miss.

Walker Wallace - November 17, 2010 reply

The difference isn’t THAT vast. Uggla is better, there I said it, but Uggla gives more back by way of defense than Burrell does, and that is significant when at least two of our starters are dedicated gorundball guys, and so are are best righty and lefty setup men.

I should note, however, that all else was not equal nor in a vaccuum, and getting Uggla for such a low cost is better than trying to outbid everyone else for Burrell. Thus I prefer the Uggla deal. Because all else is not equal.

J-Freak - November 17, 2010 reply

So are we getting more than a rental with Uggla? I’d like to see a contract extension. I love the trade, but I want at least 3-4 years of Uggla.

3 years/$36-$40M seems fair to me

-Primetime21- - November 17, 2010 reply

hahaha

Have you seen what he wants and what hes already turned down?

Yes

But let me say it again

3 years/$36-$40M seems fair to me

Please note: “Seems Fair”

Also keep in mind that he may have just wanted out of Florida rather than play for what they were offering, you never know what a guy would accept, I can promise you that I don’t believe YOU know what he would and wouldn’t accept from particular teams. So I’ll say it again

3 years/$36-$40M seems fair to me

-Primetime21- - November 17, 2010 reply

No one wants out of a team so bad

that they are going to leave 10-20 million dollars on the table.

It’s happened before.

I disagree

I don’t think he left anything “on the table” because it’s not like the Marlins were the only team in the MLB that would give Uggla $48M over 4 years. Uggla, in my opinion, realized this, and figured that if the Marlins were going to keep him they were going to have to pay him on his terms, not theirs, I think that he would see it differently with other teams. I mean, would you want to stay with the Marlins when they don’t spend any money and trade away their proven players in their prime for more prospects to try and rebuild again, it’s a never ending cycle and players can’t enjoy that, especially someone at Uggla’s age.

Now this is obviously my opinion on how some of these players think, cause that’s how I would view it. But who knows, maybe Uggla isn’t backing off his $71M over 5yrs…..but I can bet you that Wren starts at $36 over 3 and goes from there

-Primetime21- - November 17, 2010 reply

I doubt there will be an extension.

Uggla wants too much money. That being said, Uggla for one year + 2 draft picks >> Infante for one year + Dunn + $7.5 million.

Just one thing...

He won’t get to wear the stupid eyeblack all over his face, will he?

sddbaker - November 17, 2010 reply

Braves 2nd Basemen over the past 20 years:

1991 – Jeff Treadway
1992 – 1997 – Mark Lemke
1998 – Keith Lockhart
1999 – Bret Boone
2000 – 2001 – Quilvio Veras
2002 – Keith Lockhart
2003 – 2006 – Marcus Giles
2007 – 2009 – Kelly Johnson
2010 – Martin Prado
2011 – Dan Uggla

With the exception of OLemke and Lockhart we seem to always have a beast of a 2B.

Quilvio wasnt exactly a beast...

Tho he did put up career numbers with us

You shut your FACE!

Lemor was a BEAST!

TCfromDubVee - November 17, 2010 reply

Hahaha…yeah, that .600 OPS was righteous.

Get outta here....

Lemmer rulez, & bobby always loved him.

MBL1 - November 17, 2010 via mobile reply

Just saw the Wren interview on MLBN

I really liked the Billy Wagner question. Anyone think he starts itching in a couple months and calls FW to discuss coming back? I would absolutely LOVE it!

kreese555 - November 17, 2010 reply

No more Braves killer, at least for 2011

joshant - November 17, 2010 reply

For me...

that’s one of the great things about the trade. I HATED having him kill us.

sddbaker - November 17, 2010 reply

Insurance Policy

I like the trade as an insurance policy for Chipper. I’m still not sold that he is returning next season. But, he is Chipper, so if he wants to try to come back and see what happens, the Braves are gonna let him. If he returns, he plays third, Uggla at 2nd, and Prado in LF. If he decides to retire, we just move Prado to 3rd, and we have some money to get a LF/CF.

we do need to add a great defensive CF for the bench. As mentioned above, Prado, McLouth, and Heyward is not a very good OF defensively.

dlkinser86 - November 17, 2010 reply

The Braves are just going to let him...

…out of the kindness of their hearts (although they could); Chipper still has two years on his guaranteed contract. We couldn’t really stop him if we wanted to.

Walker Wallace - November 17, 2010 reply

Chipper did say that if he couldn’t play to the level that he’d like come Spring Training he’d retire.

I’d like to have Uggla for more than 1 year. We should have something with so many things coming off the books next year.

Walker Wallace - November 17, 2010 reply

Rajai Davis now gone to Toronto.