Ezra Shaw - Getty Images
Something tells me that Jason Heyward and Buster Posey are going to be fighting it out for postseason awards for years to come.
The saga of Jason Heyward and Buster Posey continued today, as Posey edged out Heyward for the National League Rookie of the Year.
Their history together started five years ago when they squared off against each other in the Georgia 4-A State Championships. They were constantly compared to one another when their teams squared off again in the 2010 Major League postseason.
Three voters in the NL did not vote for either Posey or Heyward as ROY, this is potentially unjustifiable. Here are the results:
| Rookie | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | Points |
| Buster Posey, San Francisco Giants | 20 | 9 | 2 | 129 |
| Jason Heyward, Atlanta Braves | 9 | 20 | 2 | 107 |
| Jaime Garcia, St. Louis Cardinals | 1 | 1 | 16 | 24 |
| Gaby Sanchez, Florida Marlins | 2 | 1 | 5 | 18 |
| Neil Walker, Pittsburgh Pirates | 1 | 3 | ||
| Starlin Castro, Chicago Cubs | 3 | 3 | ||
| Ike Davis, New York Mets | 2 | 2 | ||
| Jose Tabata, Pittsburgh Pirates | 1 | 1 | ||
| Jonny Venters, Atlanta Braves | 1 | 1 |
Here is a comparison of their rookie year stats:
Earlier this off-season Heyward beat out Posey for Baseball America's Rookie of the Year award.
Rookie reliever Jonny Venters received one vote for ROY... thank you Atlanta writer.
0 recs | 122 comments
Seriously? 2/3rds of the people thought Posey was more valuable than Heyward? That’s just ridiculous. I could accept a closer spread of the 1st place votes but he was not even close to that much better. Bah. Playing time matters.
Perrinbar - November 15, 2010
Boo.
But what really matters is what they do later in their careers.
MBL1 - November 15, 2010
You know a writer is a complete and total jackass
when he/she doesn’t vote Heyward and Posey either 1st or 2nd. Garcia and Sanchez both got votes for 1st and 2nd place…really?
Scott Coleman - November 15, 2010 via mobile
Was just about to comment on this
I don’t have a problem with Posey being chosen over J-Hey.
But Sanchez and Garcia? WTF?!
Tonley - November 15, 2010
That's horsesh*t
How Posey nor Heyward get a 1st or 2nd place vote is hysterical. Do these voters watch baseball??
DolphinNation - November 15, 2010
Good Ole Tommy Hutton
Was practically screaming on FSN Florida at the end of the season that Gaby Sanchez should be the ROY. He constantly complained about “Big Name Cities” and the “bias” towards them.
And don’t ask me why I was watching Marlins baseball. I think the Braves were off that day (or so I keep telling myself).
LesMilesEatsGrass - November 15, 2010
lol
the Marlins guys are the worst in baseball. That’s funny.
Scott Coleman - November 15, 2010
Hands down
The worst. Sheer torture.
Sam Jethroe - November 15, 2010
Even worse...
Add up the total number of votes for each.
Posey and Heyward were left off one ballot entirely…
Betting it’s a Marlins douchebag. Or maybe an SF and an ATL writer decided to throw up the bird at their respective competition.
Either way, fucking ridiculous.
-C
cthabeerman - November 15, 2010
I'll put money on a guy from Philly
just to blend in with the rest of their team and fan base.
Scott Coleman - November 15, 2010
Their fan base is great
especially when they run on the field and get tased. Couldn’t happen to a better bunch of jackas*es.
DolphinNation - November 15, 2010
HAHAHA
Absolutely…
Kushagi - November 15, 2010
According to Jayson Stark (via twitter):
and
Doghnut - November 15, 2010
Neil Walker?????
BAHAHAHAHA!!!!! I almost fell outta my chair reading that.
(Sarcasm alert) Yeah, he and Tabata > Heyward. That’s why he writes for Pittsburgh.
DolphinNation - November 15, 2010
These awards should reserve the right to...
nullify any brain dead vote, and ban such voter from ever taking part in any of these again.
Kovacevic certainly deserves such a banning.
Mr. Sanchez - November 15, 2010
I won't hate on the Garcia votes.
It is hard to compare pitchers to hitters, and Garcia went 13-8, 2.70 ERA, 163.1 IP, 7.3 K/9, 3.5 BB/9, 2.06 K/BB. Those are fine numbers for a rookie pitcher.
cavebird - November 15, 2010
There should be a separate award for Pitcher and Hitter.
MBL1 - November 15, 2010
Giants fan here
Just wanted to let you know it was actually a Giants beat writer who had Ventners on his ballot, Andrew Baggerly:
http://twitter.com/#!/extrabaggs/status/4248947346382848
Very close contest. Heyward had a great year, would not at all have been surprised or dismayed had he won.
GiantPain - November 15, 2010
Interesting...
Thanks for the info.
Scott Coleman - November 15, 2010 via mobile
Baggerly has some sorta fetish for good relief pitchers
He gave Jeremy Affeldt a 10th place MVP vote last year.
GiantPain - November 15, 2010
LOL…that’s embarrassing.
Scott Coleman - November 15, 2010
More like freekin hilarious if you ask me
DolphinNation - November 15, 2010
Obviously trying to repent for his sin.
MichaelProcton - November 16, 2010
The 6 votes..
..that were not for Heyward/Posey for 1st/2nd are a complete joke.
Buffalo Braves - November 15, 2010
I don't begrudge the Garcia votes.
Either for first or second. I don’t get the Sanchez votes for first—-although he had a good rookie year (and would be an easy winner last year) he was just a bit below Heyward and Posey in pretty much everything.
cavebird - November 15, 2010
Btw...
Buster Posey wears Jason Heyward pajamas.
MBL1 - November 15, 2010
… but what kind of pajamas does Jason Heyward wear?
ducheneaux13 - November 15, 2010
JHey doesn't have a need for sleep.
Doghnut - November 15, 2010
The kind
His father, Kal-El, sent along with him in the capsule.
Sam Jethroe - November 15, 2010
I guess it depends on what your criteria is
From a statistical standpoint, it’s hard to argue Heyward wasn’t better. He was a 5.0 WAR player compared to Posey’s 3.9. And that takes Posey’s positional advantage into account.
I believe voters aren’t supposed to take post-season into account, but Imagine it was difficult for them to ignore Posey’s giants beating Heward’s braves in the playoffs, and then going on to win the world series.
Personally, it was hard for me to get past the fact that Posey played catcher and batted cleanup for a championship team. But even so, I think I would have voted for Heyward. He had a better regular season.
jerryclore - November 15, 2010
Votes are cast before the off-season.
Nikk.m - November 15, 2010
if that's the case
then it’s even more confusing
jerryclore - November 15, 2010
Not really that suprising.
The rate stats were similar, the counting stats were close. The WAR difference was almost purely a playing time issue.
cavebird - November 15, 2010
Heyward: .035 WAR/GM
Posey: .036 WAR/GM
Nikk.m - November 15, 2010
Id bet few if any of the voters take WAR into account.
Doghnut - November 15, 2010
Heyward had a higher WAR, but he also had more PAs
I believe that Posey’s WAR was higher on a per PA basis.
Russ - November 15, 2010
So Heyward should be punished because he was ready from Day 1?
Scott Coleman - November 15, 2010
I wouldn't call it punishing Heyward
I believe that the case can be made that Posey was better, even if only slightly, on a per PA basis.
Being a catcher is, in my view, also a big plus, simply because elite catchers are so rare.
Russ - November 15, 2010
He didn't catch all that much.
Rob Neyer made the good point that in addition to being called up late, Posey played a lot of first before Molina was sent packing. Only 75 of his 105 starts were at catcher. That puts a dent in the positional advantage argument.
Sam Jethroe - November 15, 2010
In addition to what Sam Jethroe said above...
Heyward also had one of the better defensive seasons of any outfielder in the NL. So it’s not like he’s a slouch in the field.
Scott Coleman - November 16, 2010
Then why didnt he win a gold glove??
Clearly your argument holds no weight.
Doghnut - November 16, 2010
Jeter stole it. The damn chupacabra.
king of games - November 16, 2010
This.
MichaelProcton - November 16, 2010
Heyward was better….I am not understanding how most of the voters gave Posey way more 1st place votes.
radamez85 - November 15, 2010
Remember, they don't vote collectively.
20 writers all thinking Posey wins a squeaker still means that Posey gets 20 first place votes.
cavebird - November 15, 2010
ding ding
Doghnut - November 15, 2010
Its ok
Chipper lost ROY too
bravesguy311 - November 15, 2010
and he went on to have a pretty decent career
Braves24 - November 15, 2010
ehh
he’s been alright, nothin special
/sarcasm
MBL1 - November 15, 2010
i mean, he’s no Hideo Nomo
GeneParmesan - November 15, 2010
Hank Aaron
Was beaten out by Wally Moon in ’54.
Sam Jethroe - November 15, 2010
wow
drumzalicious - November 15, 2010
Not to knock on Buster...
For he’s a deserving winner, but I have a feeling most voters didn’t take into account the time that Heyward played injured…
Jman781 - November 15, 2010
Nor should they.
king of games - November 15, 2010
true
HEYJUDE - November 15, 2010
They should, if...
The argument goes “Well, Posey has this number and that number, which are superior to Heyward’s…” as if Jason played up to par physically all year, which many people seem to somehow believe he did.
Sam Jethroe - November 15, 2010
You can’t prove, or disprove, that a player was playing injured, thus it shouldn’t be considered. If Pujols was completely healthy this year he would probably win the MVP over Votto, but he likely won’t..
king of games - November 16, 2010
There’s another guy on our team who was 2nd in ROY voting. If Heyward ends up as good as him, I think we’ll be alright.
Broccoman - November 15, 2010
When Heyward posts his first .300/.400/.500 season next year, I don’t think many people will care about the 2nd place ROY vote.
Scott Coleman - November 15, 2010
Jason will
Because now he has to figure out what to put in that empty spot on the mantel that he cleared out for it. I guess he’ll just have one more spot for the inevitable MVP award(s) in the future.
-Primetime21- - November 15, 2010
You mean MVP's...plural
DolphinNation - November 15, 2010
That was what the (s) after the word award was hinting at
-Primetime21- - November 15, 2010
and Cy Young Awards.
:)
TonyAlmeyda - November 15, 2010
Atlanta Braves Outfielder Jason Heyward Beaten Out By Buster Posey For NL Rookie Of The Year
and this surprises who?!? Not me, that’s for sure…
HEYJUDE - November 15, 2010
ahem...
and where have you and your other lady e-friend ncchopper been?
Scott Coleman - November 15, 2010
No kidding
It’s been a while since either graced TC with their comments
bighop - November 15, 2010
Haha
How are you spending the off-season? Golf?
HEYJUDE - November 15, 2010
Quite a bit
Mostly just loafing
bighop - November 15, 2010
Sounds good to me :)
HEYJUDE - November 15, 2010
Hey
NCChopper’s hubby is home after being away for quite a long time with work, need I say more:)
I’ve been traveling, back home now recovering from a recent surgery.
How’s life treating you these days?!?
HEYJUDE - November 15, 2010
Hope you're feeling better after the surgery
DolphinNation - November 15, 2010
Thank you
Hernia surgery is Not fun!
HEYJUDE - November 15, 2010
Be well
Glad you’re back
bighop - November 15, 2010
Thank you!
HEYJUDE - November 15, 2010
Busy
with school and work. Still find time to write for this crappy blog on occasion. ;)
Hope your recovery is going well. We’ll need your moderating skills once the Frank Wren haters eventually start popping out this off-season.
Scott Coleman - November 15, 2010
look
I wanted Heyward to get this award as much as everyone. But now that it’s gone, all we can do is look forward to him carrying this team and winning world series rings and MVPs for many years to come. In the end, ROY doesn’t affect HOF voting (getting way ahead of myself but its true. When chippers name goes on the ballot, no one is gonna say “well he didnt win ROY….”). Hanson was probably the best rookie last year and he got beaten by chris coglan or however u spell his forgettable name, and Happ who I thought was the only other real candidate but still not as good as Hanson. But then again, we had to endure that loss because Hanson didnt play from day 1 like the other guys. Now we lose to someone who didnt play from day 1. This feels like the Darren McFadden heisman all over again! we know these sports writers are idiots (not to say that posey winning is idiotic, but realistically heywards .393 OBP as a 20/21 yr old dominates a .357 by a 22/23 yr old, i dont care what position he plays), so we will just have to let it go. In my biased opinion, Posey had an awesome rookie year, but not as awesome as Heywards. And if Heyward didnt get hurt, there wouldnt be a contest. But he did get hurt, there was a contest, and Posey won. Congrats Posey, see you in the playoffs next year *my prediction is we win this time =) *
Alex H - November 15, 2010
I'm reminded
Of ‘95 when Nomo edged out Chipper… Look how their respective careers turned out… Posey will mean nothin to anyone in five years when he’s DH’ing for the Toledo Mudhens
HansonManCrush - November 15, 2010 via mobile
C'mon.
Posey and Heyward will both have great careers, and they’ll struggle but I doubt either of them ends up DHing in the minor leagues.
MBL1 - November 15, 2010
Sorry...
/sarcasm, /overly-dramatic for humorous effect
HansonManCrush - November 15, 2010 via mobile
You're a crazy insane person!
Green Lantern J.S. - November 15, 2010
Congrats to Posey
He deserves it, he had a great season.
Jay212033 - November 15, 2010
Is it time?
Freddie Freeman for 2011 ROY
Julio Teheran for 2012 ROY
Can’t decide on 2013, Lipka or Salcedo?
bighop - November 15, 2010
Congrats to both Posey and Heyward
Obviously, since I’m a Giant’s fan I wanted Posey to win.
That being said, I believe that they were pretty much so statistically close that it was pretty much a coinflip. Most likely the reason that Posey gets the nod is because it is so hard to quantify how valuable catchers are to the pitching staff statistically, so he may have gotten an unfair bump over Heyward by a lot of writers.
I find it hilarious that two writers didn’t have either of these guys on their ballot. It just goes to show not to value these meaningless awards too much. You obviously want your guy to finish with some recognition, but when a judges can pick two clearly inferior home-team rookies it’s hard to really give much value to these writer’s opinions.
MLWhiteSF - November 15, 2010
Agreed.
I probably would have picked Posey as well, as much as it pains me to say. However, with picks like Walker/Tabata and Jeter with the GG, it really cheapens these awards severely.
king of games - November 15, 2010
I gotta agree. Posey winning it was justified- I was hoping for a tie.
BTW the writer who left Heyward off was a Giants writer. (San Jose)
Broccoman - November 15, 2010
No, it was the guy from Pittsburgh.
And the one who left off Posey was a Los Angeles writer. Neither from San Fran or Atlanta did anything weird. Details are above and in the new post.
cavebird - November 15, 2010
Am I the only person who thinks that Posey didn't have that great of a season?
I understand that his overall numbers at the end of the season look good, but it’s largely a result of one spectacular stretch of games in the middle of his season bringing up his averages. Posey played in 104 games this season; over the first 27 games, he put up a .289/.314/.381/.695 line, which is hardly dominant. Over the final 60 games he had a line of .254/.317/.447/.765; also hardly award-worthy. That means that over 4/5 of his season was mediocre at best, and the other 1/5 was so torrid that it pole-vaulted his numbers due to his relatively small amount of PA’s. Awards should be given based on a player’s whole body of work, not just a 20 game stretch in the middle of the season.
swainzy - November 15, 2010
Yes, probabaly
I’m not trying to troll but that could be one of the more idiotic arguments I’ve ever heard in regards to Posey/Heyward.
So you are saying that the more accurate way to judge a player is by ignoring certain portions of their whole body of work to get a better idea of their whole body of work.
Do you realize how little sense that makes?
What you mean to say is that “I believe Heyward is a more consistent player and thus deserves the award.”
MLWhiteSF - November 15, 2010
I understand that, being a Giants fan, you probably wouldn’t be swayed by any argument I could possibly make. That being said, the point I am trying to make is that Heyward deserved the award based on his performance over the course of the entire season, as opposed to Posey, who won the award based on his performance in the month of July.
swainzy - November 15, 2010
Being a Giant's fan has nothing to do with my opinion
Like I’ve said twice in this thread I think their statistics were too close to declare that either of them had a better season. I just think your position that Posey didn’t have that great of a season is laughable. I think 99% of other team’s baseball fans would agree with me.
Anyone can hand pick stats to make their point.
If you want to start picking and choosing stretches of games that are more valid let’s go into a direct comparison of the two players from the moment they were both in the big leagues together, May 3. I mean comparing the Heyward’s stats before Posey even had a chance to get hit’s for the Giants wouldn’t make sense right??
Heyward’s Line
55/9/37/.270/.381/.793
Posey’s Line
58/18/67/.305/.357/.862
Wow, when you disregard that two scorching months that Heyward played when he was first brought up Posey’s power numbers are way better and he was just an overall better hitter for the last stretch of the season.
The above is a stupid stupid example because I am trying to base my judgment of both players of hand picked statistics. This is why everyone else in the world uses a players entire sample of games to judge them and doesn’t just ignore “hot streaks”.
Your point that Heyward is more consistent might have merit. This does not prove he is a better player and certainly not to the extent that you think.
MLWhiteSF - November 15, 2010
Yo, just chill out bruh!
swainzy - November 15, 2010
As a Braves homer...
….I do have to note that MLWhiteSF is pretty much spot on here.
cavebird - November 15, 2010
I'm chill as a white cherry icey
:)
I wouldn’t come over here otherwise. Even if I believed Posey had a better season I wouldn’t post here trying to argue that.
I’m just trying to show you why that logic isn’t valid and how it can be used to make any player look bad.
I also wanted to get the other sides perspective on what this award actually means considering I don’t find it very important at all.
MLWhiteSF - November 15, 2010
I think that's something we both agree on.
Well, thank you for this discussion; I found it both enlightening and mentally stimulating.
swainzy - November 15, 2010
Im not entirely sure what a white cherry icey is
But it sounds delicious.
Doghnut - November 16, 2010
I posted this somewhere else
Posey: on base 154 times
Heyward: on base 235 times
I would also like to point out that basically the opposite of this result happened last year when Happ finished ahead of Hanson, probably because of being around for the entire season. The difference there is that Hanson was actually more valuable than Happ in a shorter amount of time, unlike Posey.
alxn - November 15, 2010
That’s absolutely true.
I wonder how many GM’s would choose Happ (or Coughlin, for that matter) over Hanson now?
Sam Jethroe - November 15, 2010
To be fair
Long term, I think pretty much all of them would have chosen Hanson then too. You can clearly be a superior player without having the superior season.
Tho, I dont think that applies here. Posey is no Coughlin. He is going to be a great player.
Doghnut - November 16, 2010
I do think Heyward has a higher ceiling than Posey though. That being said, they will both be great players for a long long time.
king of games - November 16, 2010
i actually like having so many undertated players
Hanson and Heyward both could have taken ROY honors their first seasons but didn’t however I believe they will have better seasons than anyone they went up against.
There might be some type of bias against the Braves if Freeman and Teheran come in 2nd in their respective seasons.
drumzalicious - November 15, 2010
also
not a fan of Feliz over Jackson
drumzalicious - November 15, 2010
Dunno about that...
Untested rookie steps up and is immediately a shutdown closer for a division champ that hadn’t been to the playoffs since who knows when?
MichaelProcton - November 16, 2010
having underrated players also means they might be cheaper down the road
kbertling353 - November 15, 2010
Do you guys really believe Heyward is underated?
I find that hard to believe. Everyone who isn’t an idiotic Pittsburg beat writer knows that Heyward is the real deal. Even living on the west coast I caught a ton of justified hype about Heyward from the internet/ESPN throughout the season.
MLWhiteSF - November 15, 2010
Maybe not "underrated", but...
There was a signigficant backlash against him when he had his midseason struggles. Posey provided a convenient vehicle for lots of writers to express that.
Sam Jethroe - November 15, 2010
He’s probably not underrated at this point. Or overrated. I guess you could call him rated.
Kovacevic’s vote really surprised me. We’re not talking some doofus like Mariotti or Plaschke here. It’d be easier to explain if he were just a moron, but I think he’s just too close to the situation. I don’t think that having beat writers vote is a good idea – it’s far easier to see what’s going on in baseball than 50 years ago, so there are other options to get better objectivity.
I voted for Heyward (the ESPN panel, not the award itself), but I don’t see it as a travesty that Posey won. Even Jaime Garcia could be justified. The picks for Gaby Sanchez were much, much worse.
D.Szymborski - November 15, 2010
This.
cavebird - November 15, 2010
Freeman is going to have a disadvantage.
There is some advantage to having your local guys and guys who have seen the team more vote for you. Freeman could easily have a vote split situation with Kimbrel if he takes the closer role early in the season. As for Teheran, who knows—-if we have an injury at a certain time next year, he could get too many innings to be eligible in 2012 but not enough to contend in 2011. Things like that happen all the time. Fortunately, it really isn’t a big deal.
cavebird - November 15, 2010
actually
we could have 3 in the ROY votes next year.
Freeman
Kimbrel
Minor
watch none of em crack the top 5 after carrying this team
drumzalicious - November 15, 2010
This is…disappointing.
The only way to fix this is to steal Doc Brown’s time machine and hold Chuck Norris over the voters’ heads. I’d feel much better.
If I ever attend a Braves/Giants game in the future, I’m going to bring a sign that says “Buster who?” just for sh*ts and giggles. If I was feeling really bold, I’d do it in San Francisco. :)
TonyAlmeyda - November 15, 2010
nah
Bold would be.
Heyward was the real ROY
drumzalicious - November 16, 2010
FWIW...
The Venters vote actually came from an SF beat writer. Surely he was trying to make himself feel like less of a dick.
MichaelProcton - November 16, 2010
All i can say is
Hideo Nomo (1995 ROY), 12 seasons: 123-109 ERA 4.24, 1976.1 IP, 1918 SO, 908 BB, 1.354 WHIP, 98 ERA+. (1995 AS, 2 SO Leader, 2 CY consideration)
Chipper Jones (1995 ROY runner up), 17 seasons so far: .306/.405/.536/.941, 2490 H, 493 2B, 436 HR, 1491 RBI, 1505 R, 1404 BB, 142 OPS+. (1999 MVP, 2008 Batting and OBP Title, 2007 OPS Title, 6 ASG, 2 Silver Sluggers, 11 MVP consideration) 14 games with XBH streak
joshant - November 16, 2010
I don’t think anyone should take the ROY award as an indicator of future success. It’s not for the best player, it’s for the best season.
Doghnut - November 16, 2010
i said that because
ROY doesn`t mean anything. it just means you were the best player of all rookie.
Chipper was 2nd in ROY, but he has had better career than Hideo Nomo and Chipper is still playing.
Maybe Heyward will be better player than Posey. Heyward is only 21
joshant - November 16, 2010
I agree.
Doghnut - November 16, 2010
Heyward’s Better.
sddbaker - November 16, 2010
Perspective
Todd Hollandsworth was the RoY in 1996.
Now be honest, and say if you knew who he ever was, or are googling him right now.
royhobbs - November 16, 2010
I did...
But I was also 15 at the time, and watched games more religiously then than I can now (although MLBN is changing that for the better)…thanks to TBS/WGN.
I guessed him as the Dodgers 3B, though, and he never played third once in his major league career. Boy, is there egg on my face…
-C
cthabeerman - November 16, 2010
Wasn't he in a long stretch of RoYs for them...
Karros, Nomo, Hollandsworth, Piazza? They had like 4 or 5 in a row in the early 90s.
Mr. Sanchez - November 16, 2010
I did.
Longest last name in baseball history prior to Salty.
MichaelProcton - November 16, 2010
Played OF with Dodgers, played with Braves in 2005.
TonyAlmeyda - November 16, 2010
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