We hadn't really discussed the coaching staff as a whole here on Talking Chop and I was interested to hear your thoughts. In case you missed it, our staff was completed on Friday with the hiring of Larry Parrish as our new hitting coach. Here's a look at how we stand for 2011:
Manager: Fredi Gonzalez Pitching Coach: Roger McDowell Hitting Coach: Larry Parrish Bench Coach: Carlos Tosca 1B / Infield Coach: Terry Pendleton 3B Coach: Brian Snitker Bullpen Coach: Eddie Perez
We obviously haven't seen all of these guys work together yet, but here are a few of my early thoughts.
Fredi Gonzalez averaged 80.7 wins a year in his three full seasons in Florida. What will he do with a team that has a much, much higher payroll than that of the Marlins, a top-5 minor league system, and a bevy of talented, young hitters and pitchers? I don't know about you, but I'm expecting big things.
Why the hell is Brian Snitker still at 3rd base? I know he's a good guy and he's been with the Braves forever, but he has no business coaching at 3rd. It seemed like we couldn't go more then a few games in 2010 without a costly decision being made by Snitker to hold or send the runner. I really wish Fredi would change this.
It's not easy to replace a legend like Leo Mazzone, but Roger McDowell has done an incredible job since taking over in Atlanta. Veterans like Tim Hudson and Javy Vazquez have thrived under him and Derek Lowe now has a completely new and improved approach on the mound that might've rejuvenated his career. And let's not forget Tommy Hanson is already a top-20 pitcher in the NL at the old age of 23.
Using a player's stats to determine if he'll be a good hitting coach is stupid. Did Larry Parrish have a low on-base percentage as a player nearly thirty years ago? Yeah. But does that mean we'll instantly turn into a team that hacks away at the plate? Of course not. Some guys are better players than coaches and vice versa. All reports indicate Parrish is a great worker and will do whatever he can to help our hitters. As of right now, that works for me.
It's great to see Eddie Perez remain our bullpen coach. Gotta love that guy and all of his experience should be great for our young relievers like Kimbrel and Venters.
I'm thrilled that Terry Pendleton is no longer our hitting coach, and I'm curious to see if he improves our awful infield defense. Adding Freddie Freeman should help, but we have to improve as a whole if we're going to win a championship. He was a fine defender back in his day and we can only hope TP is a better infield coach than he was a hitting coach.
I'm really bummed Chino Cadahia will no longer be on the coaching staff. He seemed like a phenomenal guy, and it always looked like he was close with the players who weren't originally from America. Plus, who couldn't fall in love with THIS?
Tim Hudson
Roy Halladay
Johan Santana
Josh Johnson
Adam Wainwright
Chris Carpenter
Tim Lincecum
Matt Cain
Ubaldo Jiminez
Jon Lester
Josh Beckett
CC Sabathia
Cliff Lee
Felix Hernandez
Jake Peavy
Justin Verlander
Zack Greinke
David Price
Matt Garza
Chad Billingsley
Roy Oswalt
How many am I at so far? I’m not even counting fringe pitchers…
Cole Hamels, Matt Cain, Ryan Dempster, Edinson Volquez, Yovani Gallardo, Matt Latos, Andy Pettite, Jared Weaver…
Billingsley is “still young and improving” as well.
And relatively speaking, Verlander isn’t that old either.
Either way, the question posed was not “who do you want for the next five seasons, but who else would you want in 2011”? In a few years, Santana/Verlander might be passing their prime, but so far, not yet.
Consider how many times the Braves had a game where a runner was thrown out at the plate, compared to how many times it was Brian McCann thrown out at the plate. There’s no statistic that can keep track of how many times a player runs through a stop sign, or how many times a player is held up, but Snit’s job is mostly to give a suggestion, and it’s the player’s decision whether or not they listen. Off the top of my head, I can remember at least twice where Heyward ran through it, and was out once, scored once. Prado not quite so lucky, but I can recall a game where he ran through and was tagged out, but McCann is still the worst; he simply doesn’t have the speed to take more than two bases, Snit learned this, and kept throwing up the stop signs towards the end of the year.
I like the staff so far, but like you, I’m still scratching my head as to why Snitker is still at 3rd. It was a great move to keep McDowell and Perez right where they were.
I am glad that many of our coaches were retained, even TP in the new role. The one head-scratcher was Snit, but I want to see the team play a few weeks (or months) before I opine one way or the other. For now, I like the staff but don’t love it.
I probably still would have voted just "Like it"...
My vote was more about Parrish and TP. Not that they can’t necessarily do the job, but just that I’m not real excited about them. I kind of skipped over Snitker, but that would be another reason to drop my vote.
No TP
No Snit
And a great hitter was hired to be Hitting coach?…like a …I think Ken Griffey Jr. is available?
but getting Fredi was huge and he alone rates us a “High” like!
Wish Snitker and TP were gone. Correct me if I’m wrong, but when I think of the best 1B coaches in the game over the last few years, isn’t it someone who was a phenomenal basestealer like Davey Lopes or Dave Roberts? I’ll be curious to see if the new regime leads to more SB attempts (from McLouth and Heyward predominantly, since there’s not much speed elsewhere). Mostly I just think it’s time for TP and the Braves to go their separate ways, and I wonder how he’ll handle the “demotion,” as it were.
But I think Joe Simpson has referred to him as a good baserunner. But baserunner =/= basestealer, and I think that’s a skill some of the Braves with even a modicum of speed could stand improve on.
He stole bases earlier in his career (maybe he was less fat?). For his career, he was 127 out of 186, which is 68%. Not good. Good base stealer =/= good baserunner though.
Because the organization has a different view of how they actually performed. And personally this is a case where I think the organization has a better handle on things than anyone else.
I have to say, they did as good a job as I could have expected to follow up bobby’s tenure. I like that fredi didn’t overhaul the entire coaching staff. When you take over for a guy like bobby, you want to keep as many familiar faces around as possible to continue the same attitude and to learn what does and does not work with the players currently on the roster.
And guys like Perez and McDowell are excellent. I can’t think of a pitching coach I would rather have (although I am admittedly ignorant when it comes to ranking coaches).
but i do have one thing to add: derek lowe had one outstanding month and almost 2 whole years of mediocrity. he needs to prove more than one month to be labeled rejuvenated. in my opinion, he’s at his peak value since becoming a brave and should be shopped.
I disagree about Lowe. With as young a staff as we are looking at this year and next, both starting and relieving, Lowe will give you right at 200 innings. He’s missed 1 start in 2 years with the Braves. Paying Lowe doesn’t bother me, especially since he has figured out McDowell can be a help.
is a frickin’ ton of cash. the braves could sign javy vazquez for 1/7 million and use the extra 8 million this year and 15 next to sign a worthy outfielder. seriously, think about the logjam of a 2012 starting rotation already:
1. hudson 2. hanson 3. lowe 4. jurrjens 5. minor 6. beachy 7. medlen 8. teheran 9. delgado 10. vizcaino
some people suggest that the bottom 3 might not be available until 2013, but teheran and vizcaino will be 21 the 2012 season and delgado will be 22.
Out of your 10 on that list, 4, Hudson, Jurrjens, Medlen and Vizcaino, have lost significant time in the last 18 months. $15 M is a lot of money. 200 innings is a lot of innings too. I’d keep Lowe, he’s plenty good enough for that salary. The last thing I want to see is the Braves strength, starting pitching, depleted by overwork at a young age.
overworking medlen obviously was a bad move by the braves, and it’s this overworking that always sees to slip my mind. however, i still think that having 9 potential starting pitcher candidates in 2012 and trading lowe on a high note would be a good front office move.
If they trade him, we’d have plenty of money for other needs, but I wouldn’t do it. Wren has things structured to have money become available after 2011 and 2012, depending on how long Chipper hangs around, it could be a bunch of money one of those years. He just needs to get us a little help for 2011.
Medlen was a starter that was converted to long relief in teh majors more because the rotation was full at the time than due to a lack of talent. He doesn’t have Hanson’s stuff/ceiling, but mentally he’s about on the same level and can probably be a solid, if not great, #3 man, borderline #2. He only threw 107 innings this year, which is not even a career high, so I don’t think it was overwork. That total is only up about 3 innings from 09, so while I could see them skipping him in the rotation a bit in August/September (had he stayed healthy) to limit his innings total to within about 150, I find it hard to believe it was overwork and not just plain old bad luck that caused his injury. Now, I know people are going to harp on me that his starter’s innings were more stressful than relief innings and are more stressful after a year in the pen than they would have been if he’d made the jump straight from MiL starter to MLB starter, but I think that’s all bollocks. The kid has a starter’s pedigree and had not amassed that many innings, all things considered, so while it sucks he went down, I don’t think you can blame the FO for making the wrong call by getting him to start. I hope he comes back in 2012 rejuvenated and ready to start again if we have room for him, he was an asset there this year.
I don’t know if there will be a rotation spot for him in 2012.
Teheran, Minor, Hanson, Beachy, Hudson, Medlen’s #6 on that list as of now.
This is why trading JJ next year or Lowe if possible should be strongly considered. Medlen could come back and start in September if something goes bad.
Yeah, I realize we’re stacked at pitching, I’m just reinforcing that the kid was an awesome starter and I’d like to see him get the shot again, but not if it would be detrimental to the team to start him over someone Teheran.
Also, if you take Lowe’s first half last year and his April, May, and September this year, it’s more like one really good year and a relatively crappy one. It hasn’t been two off years, and it looks like he’s going to be even better going forward with that renewed slider.
i’m not convinced. i sure do hope that it’s true, but many forget that derek was diagnosed with a bone chip in his elbow. it’s not like that is magically going to go away.
and, if you take his 2 full years in an atlanta uniform, you get 2 mediocre years. i was giving him props for a good month, but cherry picking individual months to say he’s had one good year and one utterly horrible year is grasping at straws. he’s been worth about 75% of his contract.
…but other teams will probably think they can sign Vazquez for $7 million and use the $23 million elsewhere as well. One month of pitching great will not make his contract moveable. If we could move his entire contract, I am sure we would do it. We just won’t be able to do this. Remember, if you don’t think he is a good value for the Braves and you are correct, other teams are not going to think he is a good value for them either.
I thought that last link was going to be the infamous Chino in a towel picture; apparently the only place that still exists is burned into the brains of those of us who were doomed to see it live.
it wasn’t an actual photograph, just a somewhat fleeting image in the background on the postgame show one night. Of all the Braves I could have seen in a towel, and I got to see Chino.
when a player does well, he gets 100% of the credit, but when he does poorly, the hitting coach gets some portion of the blame (sometimes a lot of it)?
If you look at the performance of all our hitters under Pendleton, there is absolutely no evidence that he was a bad hitting coach. Every season, some guys underperform expectations and others overperform. This year, for every McLouth or Melky, there was an Infante or Prado. Why blame TP for McLouth and not praise him for Prado? Personally, I wouldn’t do either, but you can’t just focus on one part and ignore the other.
Unless there is a team-wide (year-long) hitting outage, caused by an obvious personality conflict or a lack of effort/expertise, there’s no reason to blame a hitting coach for players’ struggles. And there is no evidence that the offense as a whole underperformed, that TP had any personality conflicts (quite the opposite, actually), or that he lacked effort or expertise.
I hope the TC faithful are more realistic judges of Parrish than they were of TP.
I’m good with trying someone else as hitting coach, but I’ve never understood that either, that a hitting coach gets none of the credit and all of the blame.
I’m sure a part of it is the belief that sometimes change for the sake of change has a placebo effect and things turn around, even if it wasn’t actually the previous coach’s fault that things were bad to begin with. Certainly worked for Colorado when they dumped Hurdle for Tracy.
Because I’ve never heard or read a Braves hitter who actually praised TP for helping them come out of a slump or improve their hitting. McLouth started hitting again in Sept and he praised Chipper for helping him! I’ve read many times where a hitter was “working” with TP (ie…KJ, McLouth) without any results.
I’ve read several times this year alone of players crediting TP with helping them. I specifically remember McCann giving him credit for helping him. Either way, what you’ve read is a terrible way of judging a hitting coach. Honestly, nobody here has any business judging how good of a coach TP is.
How is adding a rookie 1st basemen over a proven gold glover a defensive improvement? We’ll be fine with Chipper / Prado back and infante spelling them.
But to call it a defensive replacement situation is a bit of a misnomer, I think.
Pitcher’s spot in the order came up, needed a lefty bat, put Freeman in and later substituted the pitcher in D-Lee’s spot. I don’t remember ever seeing Freeman come in to first on a double switch when on defense. It was always predicated first by a pinch-hitting situation.
Of course, I could be totally wrong on this, but I simply don’t remember any preemptive defensive replacement situations where his glove took precedence over Lee’s. As I recall, it was always brought upon by a need of a bat in bottom part of the lineup first and foremost.
I love the Fredi signing. Bringing someone in who is very much like Cox and knows the organization was a smart move. We didn’t need to shake things up. I also like that Fredi brought in his own right hand man in Tosca. I loved me some Chino, but Fredi needed to bring in someone that suits him most in that position.
Keeping McDowell and Perez is a big plus. I think they do one helluva job and hope to see them around for a long time.
Terry I can live with as 1st base/fielding coach. Know nothing of the new hitting coach but will be hopefully be a breathe of fresh air.
Snitker has me head scratching, but hopefully Parrish gets our boys hitting well enough that we can overcome any misguided judgments on 3rd base. Which I don’t think were too many this year tbh.
I love the staff. Here’s to getting back to the post season!
I’m also not seeing how he supposedly “fixed” Lowe. I thought the story on Lowe was that he figured out the problem on his own, finally, and fixed it himself. However, I think McDowell is a good coach and even Leo couldn’t fix everybody.
The story I heard, when Lowe missed his start due to bone chips, Lowe approached McDowell, McDowell looked at video then worked with Lowe on “standing up” more on the mound. Before the Nats game, McDowell suggested some pitch sequences that led to Lowe’s 12 K game. I think it’s fairly safe to say McDowell played a part in helping Lowe’s Sept.
Well, if I’ve been doing that it’s nothing personal. Because I don’t remember doing it, which means I wasn’t sitting here like, “that damn bighop, saying something stupid again!”.
The third base coach seems to get magnified because once runners reach him, well, they’re obviously in scoring position. And when you look at our major issues with the LOBster this year, can you blame Snitker for pushing the envelope instead of throwing up the brakes thinking “Its ok, the next guy will get a hit, no problem.”
Possibly true. If your team is high-OBP, low-SLG, then risks aren’t worth it unless they’re 70-30 or better.
I don’t oppose the approach- it’s cheaper then getting mashers- though you will get LOBsterball at times. I also think the approach works better in the postseason, since small-ball becomes more useful in low-scoring games. (This is an area that I think hasn’t really been studied sabermetrically, it just makes theoretical sense to me that runs means more when there are fewer runs)
And there has been some analysis done, at least at BP. Basically, their conclusion was that almost all thrid base coaches were too timid. This doesn’t surprise me, and they backed the data with the intelligent observation that the system leads to timidity—-if you send the runner and he scores it is no big deal, if you hold the runner, it is no big deal, but if you send the runner and he is thrown out, you are to blame as the third base coach. Therefore, to avoid blame, you send the runners less than you should.
Don’t get the TP hate, glad he’s still on board though and interested in what Parrish can do. Agree that I woul rather still have Hubbard around and Snitker not. Would definitely always like to have Eddie involved, he’s great.
I kinda wondered that same thing, but thanks for coming right out and saying it. Hubbard’s done phenomenal work in the past, and I have to wonder if either 1) he was a scapegoat, or 2) he left on his own for reasons unknown. I’m gonna miss him.
I like Hubbard and will definitely miss seeing him standing out there at 1b. But when you’re the infield coach, in charge of defense, and said infield has 90 errors in a season, it’s hard for me to agree with you that he “got the shaft.”
Getting the most out of young players…that 80+ win average was done with mostly youth plus a few cast off older players…a few of them ex-Braves.
I still wonder what would have happened if we still had Yunel now and he would have displayed the same attitude as the Marlin’s SS sometime next season…who would have had to leave the team? Remind me next year to laugh really loud when Ramirez gets to the plate next year…hee hee.
Because all of this really means nothing. The coaching staff will have minimal impact on the team. People who act like they know how good of a hitting coach TP was drive me crazy. I don’t understand how anyone can make outrageous statements about how bad he was with absolutely nothing substantial to back it up.
The team fills its pitching staff with highly-paid veterans and top prospects and neglects the offense and people decide that McDowell is a great pitching coach and TP has no idea what he’s doing. I remember when people thought TP was great and McDowell was clueless back when the Braves had an abysmal staff and highly productive offense.
I guess it’s entirely possible that you are the only poster on this board that knows anything at all about baseball. Thank you for gracing us with your wisdom.
I never claimed to know anything about baseball. All I said was that I don’t understand how anyone could conclude that TP is a bad coach because they have nothing to base their conclusions on. I then explained how people’s opinions of coaches tends to coincide with how talented the team is at that aspect.
I wish, instead of being confrontational, you could explain to me how you and others decided that he is such a bad coach.
I never said he was bad, never have, I like TP, I’m one of the few. Yes I replied in a smart ass manner, I felt your post was a bit of a hammer to the head of folks posting their opinions of the coaches. It is after all a thread about the new coaching staff.
but whenever I do, I just keep thinking about how a healthy Braves team with Chipper, Prado, JJ, etc. would handle both of these teams with no problem.
They played awesome in the NLCS and WS. Outstanding pitching and defense, along with some timely hitting. They’re a fun team to watch when they’re clicking.
That's funny that we played them tougher than either the Phillies or Rangers
The games were good, even the ones we lost. It really makes me believe the Phillies were in the Braves’ head this year. How do we take the Giants to the wire in nearly every game yet the Phillies can’t beat them, though the Phillies demolished us.
when did tommy hanson
become a top 20 NL pitcher? how did you rank
StottsEra - November 1, 2010
Who needs a ranking?
Namve 19 other pitchers you want on the mound ahead of Hanson in 2011. I’ll even give you the AL.
Jman781 - November 1, 2010
*Name
Jman781 - November 1, 2010
Yep. This is what I went by.
Scott Coleman - November 1, 2010 via mobile
Hmmmm... That actually sounds kind of easy...
Off the top of my head:
Tim Hudson
Roy Halladay
Johan Santana
Josh Johnson
Adam Wainwright
Chris Carpenter
Tim Lincecum
Matt Cain
Ubaldo Jiminez
Jon Lester
Josh Beckett
CC Sabathia
Cliff Lee
Felix Hernandez
Jake Peavy
Justin Verlander
Zack Greinke
David Price
Matt Garza
Chad Billingsley
Roy Oswalt
How many am I at so far? I’m not even counting fringe pitchers…
Cole Hamels, Matt Cain, Ryan Dempster, Edinson Volquez, Yovani Gallardo, Matt Latos, Andy Pettite, Jared Weaver…
Wren_and_Stimpy - November 1, 2010
In fairness...
The post only said he was a top-20 NL pitcher.
Tarkus - November 1, 2010
True.
Commentor gave me AL too ;)
And based on “stuff” alone, he might be Top 20.
Wren_and_Stimpy - November 1, 2010
I know, I was just sayin'....
Tarkus - November 1, 2010
He's top 20 in the NL
Mr. Sanchez - November 2, 2010
If he's not top-20, it's really close
18 in FIP
31 in ERA
24 in fWAR
buzzdeadwax - November 1, 2010
You listed Cain twice… thats how literal you took it too….
dean0uga - November 1, 2010
Blah. Switch one of the other Cain’s with Sanchez.
Wren_and_Stimpy - November 1, 2010
No way
I take Santana, Billingsley, or Verlander over Hanson. He is still young and improving and am sure will be top 10 to 15 let alone top 20 very soon.
Kevin McCarthy - November 1, 2010
Billingsley is “still young and improving” as well.
And relatively speaking, Verlander isn’t that old either.
Either way, the question posed was not “who do you want for the next five seasons, but who else would you want in 2011”? In a few years, Santana/Verlander might be passing their prime, but so far, not yet.
Wren_and_Stimpy - November 1, 2010
In regards to Snit
Consider how many times the Braves had a game where a runner was thrown out at the plate, compared to how many times it was Brian McCann thrown out at the plate. There’s no statistic that can keep track of how many times a player runs through a stop sign, or how many times a player is held up, but Snit’s job is mostly to give a suggestion, and it’s the player’s decision whether or not they listen. Off the top of my head, I can remember at least twice where Heyward ran through it, and was out once, scored once. Prado not quite so lucky, but I can recall a game where he ran through and was tagged out, but McCann is still the worst; he simply doesn’t have the speed to take more than two bases, Snit learned this, and kept throwing up the stop signs towards the end of the year.
royhobbs - November 1, 2010
Maybe the players realized that his signs were just guesses, and were ignoring him?
Broccoman - November 1, 2010
Snit
He SHOULD NOT still be the 3B coach, point blank!
Jay212033 - November 1, 2010
THIS!
Snit is shit at coaching 3rd base, period.
HEYJUDE - November 1, 2010
I like the staff so far, but like you, I’m still scratching my head as to why Snitker is still at 3rd. It was a great move to keep McDowell and Perez right where they were.
heap16 - November 1, 2010
Agree.
I am glad that many of our coaches were retained, even TP in the new role. The one head-scratcher was Snit, but I want to see the team play a few weeks (or months) before I opine one way or the other. For now, I like the staff but don’t love it.
Jman781 - November 1, 2010
Yeah, the biggest thing for me was keeping McDowell. He seems like he has done a phenomenal job with our pitchers.
heap16 - November 1, 2010
I wonder how many of those “Like it” votes would have been “Love it” if it were Hubbard—or anyone, really—instead of Snitker.
J-Freak - November 1, 2010
I probably still would have voted just "Like it"...
My vote was more about Parrish and TP. Not that they can’t necessarily do the job, but just that I’m not real excited about them. I kind of skipped over Snitker, but that would be another reason to drop my vote.
Tarkus - November 1, 2010
A love it would have came IF
No TP
No Snit
And a great hitter was hired to be Hitting coach?…like a …I think Ken Griffey Jr. is available?
but getting Fredi was huge and he alone rates us a “High” like!
bravestatoo - November 1, 2010
Mine would've,
SnipeShot - November 2, 2010
Love Fredi, Roger, and Eddie
Like Parrish, and Tosca.
Wish Snitker and TP were gone. Correct me if I’m wrong, but when I think of the best 1B coaches in the game over the last few years, isn’t it someone who was a phenomenal basestealer like Davey Lopes or Dave Roberts? I’ll be curious to see if the new regime leads to more SB attempts (from McLouth and Heyward predominantly, since there’s not much speed elsewhere). Mostly I just think it’s time for TP and the Braves to go their separate ways, and I wonder how he’ll handle the “demotion,” as it were.
Torgo's Executive Powder - November 1, 2010
I don’t think TP is a bad coach, just a bad hitting instructor. Let’s give him a chance in a new role before throwing him to the wolves.
Broccoman - November 1, 2010
I could be mistaken...
but wasn’t TP a pretty good base runner, relative to his speed?
Tarkus - November 1, 2010
I was far too young to remember
But I think Joe Simpson has referred to him as a good baserunner. But baserunner =/= basestealer, and I think that’s a skill some of the Braves with even a modicum of speed could stand improve on.
Torgo's Executive Powder - November 1, 2010
He stole bases earlier in his career (maybe he was less fat?). For his career, he was 127 out of 186, which is 68%. Not good. Good base stealer =/= good baserunner though.
ChrisK562 - November 1, 2010
Not exactly svelt
But not the roly-poly guy we all know now:
cbwilk - November 1, 2010
Hated to see Hubbard go. I’d rather have him as Snitker.
bighop - November 1, 2010
this
TCfromDubVee - November 1, 2010
Agreed
John Holton - November 1, 2010
Yep
Why not move Hubbard to 3rd, and let Snit go?
HEYJUDE - November 1, 2010
Because the organization has a different view of how they actually performed. And personally this is a case where I think the organization has a better handle on things than anyone else.
cbwilk - November 1, 2010
I have to say, they did as good a job as I could have expected to follow up bobby’s tenure. I like that fredi didn’t overhaul the entire coaching staff. When you take over for a guy like bobby, you want to keep as many familiar faces around as possible to continue the same attitude and to learn what does and does not work with the players currently on the roster.
telemakhos - November 1, 2010
Agree...
And guys like Perez and McDowell are excellent. I can’t think of a pitching coach I would rather have (although I am admittedly ignorant when it comes to ranking coaches).
Jman781 - November 1, 2010
they'll do..
but i do have one thing to add: derek lowe had one outstanding month and almost 2 whole years of mediocrity. he needs to prove more than one month to be labeled rejuvenated. in my opinion, he’s at his peak value since becoming a brave and should be shopped.
ryan c - November 1, 2010
I disagree about Lowe. With as young a staff as we are looking at this year and next, both starting and relieving, Lowe will give you right at 200 innings. He’s missed 1 start in 2 years with the Braves. Paying Lowe doesn’t bother me, especially since he has figured out McDowell can be a help.
bighop - November 1, 2010
30 million over 2 years...
is a frickin’ ton of cash. the braves could sign javy vazquez for 1/7 million and use the extra 8 million this year and 15 next to sign a worthy outfielder. seriously, think about the logjam of a 2012 starting rotation already:
1. hudson 2. hanson 3. lowe 4. jurrjens 5. minor 6. beachy 7. medlen 8. teheran 9. delgado 10. vizcaino
some people suggest that the bottom 3 might not be available until 2013, but teheran and vizcaino will be 21 the 2012 season and delgado will be 22.
ryan c - November 1, 2010
Out of your 10 on that list, 4, Hudson, Jurrjens, Medlen and Vizcaino, have lost significant time in the last 18 months. $15 M is a lot of money. 200 innings is a lot of innings too. I’d keep Lowe, he’s plenty good enough for that salary. The last thing I want to see is the Braves strength, starting pitching, depleted by overwork at a young age.
bighop - November 1, 2010
good point...
overworking medlen obviously was a bad move by the braves, and it’s this overworking that always sees to slip my mind. however, i still think that having 9 potential starting pitcher candidates in 2012 and trading lowe on a high note would be a good front office move.
ryan c - November 1, 2010
If they trade him, we’d have plenty of money for other needs, but I wouldn’t do it. Wren has things structured to have money become available after 2011 and 2012, depending on how long Chipper hangs around, it could be a bunch of money one of those years. He just needs to get us a little help for 2011.
bighop - November 1, 2010
Was Medlen really overworked? I wonder if he was hurt in that game in Cincy before his arm gave out, and if that contributed.
Lowe shouldn’t be traded, unless it’s for a quality OF (even if it’s someone like an Alex Rios or Vernon Wells)
Broccoman - November 1, 2010
Medlen was a starter that was converted to long relief in teh majors more because the rotation was full at the time than due to a lack of talent. He doesn’t have Hanson’s stuff/ceiling, but mentally he’s about on the same level and can probably be a solid, if not great, #3 man, borderline #2. He only threw 107 innings this year, which is not even a career high, so I don’t think it was overwork. That total is only up about 3 innings from 09, so while I could see them skipping him in the rotation a bit in August/September (had he stayed healthy) to limit his innings total to within about 150, I find it hard to believe it was overwork and not just plain old bad luck that caused his injury. Now, I know people are going to harp on me that his starter’s innings were more stressful than relief innings and are more stressful after a year in the pen than they would have been if he’d made the jump straight from MiL starter to MLB starter, but I think that’s all bollocks. The kid has a starter’s pedigree and had not amassed that many innings, all things considered, so while it sucks he went down, I don’t think you can blame the FO for making the wrong call by getting him to start. I hope he comes back in 2012 rejuvenated and ready to start again if we have room for him, he was an asset there this year.
J-Freak - November 1, 2010
I don’t know if there will be a rotation spot for him in 2012.
Teheran, Minor, Hanson, Beachy, Hudson, Medlen’s #6 on that list as of now.
This is why trading JJ next year or Lowe if possible should be strongly considered. Medlen could come back and start in September if something goes bad.
Broccoman - November 1, 2010
Yeah, I realize we’re stacked at pitching, I’m just reinforcing that the kid was an awesome starter and I’d like to see him get the shot again, but not if it would be detrimental to the team to start him over someone Teheran.
J-Freak - November 1, 2010
I would put Medlen above Beachy...
…just based on stuff, but Beachy has 2011 to prove me right or, hopefully, wrong.
cavebird - November 1, 2010
Also, if you take Lowe’s first half last year and his April, May, and September this year, it’s more like one really good year and a relatively crappy one. It hasn’t been two off years, and it looks like he’s going to be even better going forward with that renewed slider.
J-Freak - November 1, 2010
getting better going forward...
i’m not convinced. i sure do hope that it’s true, but many forget that derek was diagnosed with a bone chip in his elbow. it’s not like that is magically going to go away.
and, if you take his 2 full years in an atlanta uniform, you get 2 mediocre years. i was giving him props for a good month, but cherry picking individual months to say he’s had one good year and one utterly horrible year is grasping at straws. he’s been worth about 75% of his contract.
ryan c - November 1, 2010
I might add...
again as I said his contract was more in line with a #1 starter…did we getting #1 quality starts….only this September!
bravestatoo - November 1, 2010
That's great...
…but other teams will probably think they can sign Vazquez for $7 million and use the $23 million elsewhere as well. One month of pitching great will not make his contract moveable. If we could move his entire contract, I am sure we would do it. We just won’t be able to do this. Remember, if you don’t think he is a good value for the Braves and you are correct, other teams are not going to think he is a good value for them either.
cavebird - November 1, 2010
agreed...
agreed- on trading lowe: not saying it’s going to be easy.
ryan c - November 1, 2010
and the choir says amen!
bravestatoo - November 1, 2010
Whew.....
I thought that last link was going to be the infamous Chino in a towel picture; apparently the only place that still exists is burned into the brains of those of us who were doomed to see it live.
FUPA, we’ll miss you.
sddbaker - November 1, 2010
I am happy that I never saw that picture you’re talking about.
MBL1 - November 1, 2010
Well...
it wasn’t an actual photograph, just a somewhat fleeting image in the background on the postgame show one night. Of all the Braves I could have seen in a towel, and I got to see Chino.
sddbaker - November 1, 2010
Why is it that
when a player does well, he gets 100% of the credit, but when he does poorly, the hitting coach gets some portion of the blame (sometimes a lot of it)?
If you look at the performance of all our hitters under Pendleton, there is absolutely no evidence that he was a bad hitting coach. Every season, some guys underperform expectations and others overperform. This year, for every McLouth or Melky, there was an Infante or Prado. Why blame TP for McLouth and not praise him for Prado? Personally, I wouldn’t do either, but you can’t just focus on one part and ignore the other.
Unless there is a team-wide (year-long) hitting outage, caused by an obvious personality conflict or a lack of effort/expertise, there’s no reason to blame a hitting coach for players’ struggles. And there is no evidence that the offense as a whole underperformed, that TP had any personality conflicts (quite the opposite, actually), or that he lacked effort or expertise.
I hope the TC faithful are more realistic judges of Parrish than they were of TP.
Jacob Peterson - November 1, 2010
(Unfortunately) that’s just how pro sports work anymore.
Scott Coleman - November 1, 2010 via mobile
It's simple, really.
You generally can’t fire the players.
cavebird - November 1, 2010
damn unions.
10-4 - November 1, 2010
Rec'd.
I’m good with trying someone else as hitting coach, but I’ve never understood that either, that a hitting coach gets none of the credit and all of the blame.
Tarkus - November 1, 2010
I’m sure a part of it is the belief that sometimes change for the sake of change has a placebo effect and things turn around, even if it wasn’t actually the previous coach’s fault that things were bad to begin with. Certainly worked for Colorado when they dumped Hurdle for Tracy.
J-Freak - November 1, 2010
Because I’ve never heard or read a Braves hitter who actually praised TP for helping them come out of a slump or improve their hitting. McLouth started hitting again in Sept and he praised Chipper for helping him! I’ve read many times where a hitter was “working” with TP (ie…KJ, McLouth) without any results.
BravesFan - November 1, 2010
I’ve read several times this year alone of players crediting TP with helping them. I specifically remember McCann giving him credit for helping him. Either way, what you’ve read is a terrible way of judging a hitting coach. Honestly, nobody here has any business judging how good of a coach TP is.
alxn - November 1, 2010
Bullet 6
How is adding a rookie 1st basemen over a proven gold glover a defensive improvement? We’ll be fine with Chipper / Prado back and infante spelling them.
joshmaurer - November 1, 2010
I was thinking more about Troy at 1st than DLee. Good point though.
Scott Coleman - November 1, 2010 via mobile
Bobby was using Freddy as a detensive replacement for Derek Lee late in the season, even in tight games. That should say something.
Broccoman - November 1, 2010
Even Lee’s range was limited some by his back, just as Troy’s knees limited him (albeit to a larger degree).
J-Freak - November 1, 2010
He was used in double switches...
But to call it a defensive replacement situation is a bit of a misnomer, I think.
Pitcher’s spot in the order came up, needed a lefty bat, put Freeman in and later substituted the pitcher in D-Lee’s spot. I don’t remember ever seeing Freeman come in to first on a double switch when on defense. It was always predicated first by a pinch-hitting situation.
Of course, I could be totally wrong on this, but I simply don’t remember any preemptive defensive replacement situations where his glove took precedence over Lee’s. As I recall, it was always brought upon by a need of a bat in bottom part of the lineup first and foremost.
-C
cthabeerman - November 1, 2010
I’ve heard that Freeman has a good glove.
MBL1 - November 1, 2010
I think he’s gonna have some gold gloves before it’s over with. He’s very slick at first base.
cbwilk - November 1, 2010
He made some good plays this year with Atlanta, but he didn’t play much.
MBL1 - November 1, 2010 via mobile
I’m pretty happy with the changes. Let’s just see what Fredi can do with this team.
Not sure about the hitting coach, I’ll take a wait and see approach.
Sparhawk - November 1, 2010
My goods outweight my bads by a lot.
I love the Fredi signing. Bringing someone in who is very much like Cox and knows the organization was a smart move. We didn’t need to shake things up. I also like that Fredi brought in his own right hand man in Tosca. I loved me some Chino, but Fredi needed to bring in someone that suits him most in that position.
Keeping McDowell and Perez is a big plus. I think they do one helluva job and hope to see them around for a long time.
Terry I can live with as 1st base/fielding coach. Know nothing of the new hitting coach but will be hopefully be a breathe of fresh air.
Snitker has me head scratching, but hopefully Parrish gets our boys hitting well enough that we can overcome any misguided judgments on 3rd base. Which I don’t think were too many this year tbh.
I love the staff. Here’s to getting back to the post season!
TCfromDubVee - November 1, 2010
I'm not knocking McDowell, but ...
I’m also not seeing how he supposedly “fixed” Lowe. I thought the story on Lowe was that he figured out the problem on his own, finally, and fixed it himself. However, I think McDowell is a good coach and even Leo couldn’t fix everybody.
Zontar - November 1, 2010
The story I heard, when Lowe missed his start due to bone chips, Lowe approached McDowell, McDowell looked at video then worked with Lowe on “standing up” more on the mound. Before the Nats game, McDowell suggested some pitch sequences that led to Lowe’s 12 K game. I think it’s fairly safe to say McDowell played a part in helping Lowe’s Sept.
bighop - November 1, 2010
This is the story I remember hearing too.
cbwilk - November 1, 2010
Damn CB, that’s the 1st time you haven’t slapped me down in a month! I’m doing the happy dance for posting something that might be close to accurate.
bighop - November 1, 2010
Well, if I’ve been doing that it’s nothing personal. Because I don’t remember doing it, which means I wasn’t sitting here like, “that damn bighop, saying something stupid again!”.
cbwilk - November 1, 2010
No offense was taken, I’m wrong right often.
bighop - November 1, 2010
I specifically remember
DLowe saying in either a pre-game or post-game interview that he and Roger fixed his delivery after watching a ton of video.
Scott Coleman - November 1, 2010
I don't fault Snit much.
The third base coach seems to get magnified because once runners reach him, well, they’re obviously in scoring position. And when you look at our major issues with the LOBster this year, can you blame Snitker for pushing the envelope instead of throwing up the brakes thinking “Its ok, the next guy will get a hit, no problem.”
10-4 - November 1, 2010
Possibly true. If your team is high-OBP, low-SLG, then risks aren’t worth it unless they’re 70-30 or better.
I don’t oppose the approach- it’s cheaper then getting mashers- though you will get LOBsterball at times. I also think the approach works better in the postseason, since small-ball becomes more useful in low-scoring games. (This is an area that I think hasn’t really been studied sabermetrically, it just makes theoretical sense to me that runs means more when there are fewer runs)
Broccoman - November 1, 2010
I don't blame Snitker much either.
And there has been some analysis done, at least at BP. Basically, their conclusion was that almost all thrid base coaches were too timid. This doesn’t surprise me, and they backed the data with the intelligent observation that the system leads to timidity—-if you send the runner and he scores it is no big deal, if you hold the runner, it is no big deal, but if you send the runner and he is thrown out, you are to blame as the third base coach. Therefore, to avoid blame, you send the runners less than you should.
cavebird - November 1, 2010
Don’t get the TP hate, glad he’s still on board though and interested in what Parrish can do. Agree that I woul rather still have Hubbard around and Snitker not. Would definitely always like to have Eddie involved, he’s great.
Sir Stealth - November 1, 2010
Glenn Hubbard got the shaft
Did Glen Hubbard take the fall for Conrad’s miscues? We should have kept Hubbard and not Snitker.
harlangoodnight - November 1, 2010
I kinda wondered that same thing, but thanks for coming right out and saying it. Hubbard’s done phenomenal work in the past, and I have to wonder if either 1) he was a scapegoat, or 2) he left on his own for reasons unknown. I’m gonna miss him.
J-Freak - November 1, 2010
Or 3) he just wasn't a Fredi guy.
Tarkus - November 1, 2010
Don't get me wrong
I like Hubbard and will definitely miss seeing him standing out there at 1b. But when you’re the infield coach, in charge of defense, and said infield has 90 errors in a season, it’s hard for me to agree with you that he “got the shaft.”
knarf - November 1, 2010
Fredi's apparent best trait?
Getting the most out of young players…that 80+ win average was done with mostly youth plus a few cast off older players…a few of them ex-Braves.
I still wonder what would have happened if we still had Yunel now and he would have displayed the same attitude as the Marlin’s SS sometime next season…who would have had to leave the team? Remind me next year to laugh really loud when Ramirez gets to the plate next year…hee hee.
bravestatoo - November 1, 2010
I wish there was an option for not caring
Because all of this really means nothing. The coaching staff will have minimal impact on the team. People who act like they know how good of a hitting coach TP was drive me crazy. I don’t understand how anyone can make outrageous statements about how bad he was with absolutely nothing substantial to back it up.
alxn - November 1, 2010
The team fills its pitching staff with highly-paid veterans and top prospects and neglects the offense and people decide that McDowell is a great pitching coach and TP has no idea what he’s doing. I remember when people thought TP was great and McDowell was clueless back when the Braves had an abysmal staff and highly productive offense.
alxn - November 1, 2010
I guess it’s entirely possible that you are the only poster on this board that knows anything at all about baseball. Thank you for gracing us with your wisdom.
bighop - November 1, 2010
Thank you for being a smart ass.
I never claimed to know anything about baseball. All I said was that I don’t understand how anyone could conclude that TP is a bad coach because they have nothing to base their conclusions on. I then explained how people’s opinions of coaches tends to coincide with how talented the team is at that aspect.
I wish, instead of being confrontational, you could explain to me how you and others decided that he is such a bad coach.
alxn - November 1, 2010
I never said he was bad, never have, I like TP, I’m one of the few. Yes I replied in a smart ass manner, I felt your post was a bit of a hammer to the head of folks posting their opinions of the coaches. It is after all a thread about the new coaching staff.
bighop - November 1, 2010
You’re a real hero, man. I’m sure they appreciate you standing up for them against the big bad bully who dares to share his opinion.
alxn - November 1, 2010
I’m no hero, I’m a smart ass.
bighop - November 1, 2010
fair enough
alxn - November 1, 2010
Oh boy.
Scott Coleman - November 1, 2010
Anyone watching the World Series?
MBL1 - November 1, 2010 via mobile
Yes.
But not many from reading about the ratings.
Tarkus - November 1, 2010
Bits and pieces...
but whenever I do, I just keep thinking about how a healthy Braves team with Chipper, Prado, JJ, etc. would handle both of these teams with no problem.
Scott Coleman - November 1, 2010
Braves might not have made it past Philly.
The Giants seem to have peaked at the right time.
Tarkus - November 1, 2010
It would’ve been a good series, but I’d take us.
Scott Coleman - November 1, 2010
Does McCann get a ring for giving the Giants HFA?
Tarkus - November 1, 2010
sigh
this
:(
Wren_and_Stimpy - November 1, 2010
Can you tell Dwight to chill…. i really need some Andre Johnson/Owen Daniels garbage points
bpk228480 - November 1, 2010
Spencer Hawes is looking good for you guys!
Scott Coleman - November 1, 2010
I love it
3.3 ppg on 28% shooting, 3 boards, 1 block….17 minutes a game
bpk228480 - November 1, 2010
The Kings haven't played anyone...
but 2-1 on a 3-game road trip to start the season works for me.
Scott Coleman - November 1, 2010
Andre Johnson!
and yea, I don’t see the sixers winning 30 games.
bpk228480 - November 1, 2010
weak sauce.
Scott Coleman - November 1, 2010
Congrats to the Giants
we gave them a great ride in the 1st round, but they deserved it
Jtpdolphins2009 - November 1, 2010
Yeah...
They played awesome in the NLCS and WS. Outstanding pitching and defense, along with some timely hitting. They’re a fun team to watch when they’re clicking.
Tarkus - November 1, 2010
I wanted to go to their blog and give them props
but it makes me wait 24 hours to post
I think it would show good sportsmanship if someone from here gave them congrats from everyone here
Jtpdolphins2009 - November 1, 2010
I nominate MVHS
bpk228480 - November 1, 2010
me too
Jtpdolphins2009 - November 1, 2010
I'll get on that...
(story of my life.)
Scott Coleman - November 1, 2010
Good idea.
They represented the NL well.
And it was great to see virtually all the media completely wrong their last two series.
Tarkus - November 1, 2010
already did that :)
TonyAlmeyda - November 1, 2010
That's funny that we played them tougher than either the Phillies or Rangers
The games were good, even the ones we lost. It really makes me believe the Phillies were in the Braves’ head this year. How do we take the Giants to the wire in nearly every game yet the Phillies can’t beat them, though the Phillies demolished us.
BravePhin - November 2, 2010
If you're looking for an NBA team to follow to pass the time...
The Sacramento Kings are so much fun to watch. I know they play late, but you gotta check them out.
Scott Coleman - November 2, 2010
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