Reports are that the Atlanta Braves have traded their current first baseman, Casey Kotchman, to the Red Sox for their former first baseman, Adam LaRoche. The deal was first reported by Jon Heyman of SI.com, then by NESN via this link. I had barely got done putting up the speculation post about this rumor, when it was confirmed to be true.
As I said in that post, this is not really a trade upwards, but more of a lateral move, and one that frees the Braves of any obligation to Kotchman beyond this year. Kotchman is under team control for a couple more years, LaRoche is a free agent. LaRoche is also one of Chipper Jones' best buds -- they own land together -- and it wouldn't surprise me if he was influential in this trade in some form or fashion.
LaRoche does represent an increase in power production over Kotchman, something that may have intrigued the Braves. He is also often referred to as a "second half" player as evedenced by his .773 first half OPS, versus his .899 second half OPS. His history with the orgainzation may also lead them to believe that he could be re-signed this off-season at a reasonable price. At the very least, there would be less risk in offering him arbitration.
More to come here as we find out.
[UPDATE: 4:15pm]
I just got the press release, and we get "cash considerations" along with LaRoche. So the Red Sox will be sending some salary our way, not sure how much yet.
0 recs | 609 comments
Bills Shanks is going nuts about how awesome this trade is, which further proves in my mind that it is a terrible move.
10-4 - July 31, 2009
Freemannnnnnn
Reason we don’t need to resign him for more than one year. Reason Kotchman made good sense, 1 year left for Freeman to develop, good avg for a bottom of the lineup guy…Wren???
michaelcooksey - July 31, 2009
still have Prado
TradeAndruw - July 31, 2009
+1
I could absolutely see him there next year. He’s much better there defensively than 2B.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Not so fast
Heymans tweets that Haithcock was pulled from the lineup in Gwinett.
TradeAndruw - July 31, 2009
that makes more sense than Kotchman for Laroche.
10-4 - July 31, 2009
haha
Haithcock made me laugh this time…
bwellnjonesco - July 31, 2009
WTF
i always liked Rochy’s swing, but man what a surprise this is
Slee - July 31, 2009
Who starts at 1B tonight? Prado is hurt.
TradeAndruw - July 31, 2009
Barbaro
was called up according to ajc. The benefit of AAA in Gwinnett
camiller - July 31, 2009
Inital thought is ‘fuck’. Analysis coming in an hour.
bigjoe - July 31, 2009 via mobile
I think everyone is thinking that
jjb5574 - July 31, 2009
i dont see anyway that could change unless the details of the trade do
bravesguy95 - July 31, 2009
It's on ESPN now...
Says that the Sox view Kotchman as more of a bench player and didn’t have a role for LaRoche. Probably wanted Kotchamn for late inning defensive help. Which still doesn’t make sense as to our reasoning. I can’t believe that there is nothing else that has come out of this yet…
michaelcooksey - July 31, 2009
he has tons more power and we need that desperately?
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
On the bright side..
This bumps McCann to the 5 hole (probably), which I think we all can agree is a good thing. Defense is a bit over-rated at 1B and this gives us some more power.
I-Miss-John-Rocker - July 31, 2009
why would they bump mccann to the five hole?
He’s absolutely the better hitter. I’d think Laroche slides in at five
was385 - July 31, 2009
...
Look at his stats batting 5th compared to 4th.
I remember somebody brought that up a few days ago.
I-Miss-John-Rocker - July 31, 2009
there really isn’t that much of a difference in approach batting fourth to batting fifth, so I think that’s more just pure chance than something significant. It’s not like Yunel who went from the two to six spot..
was385 - July 31, 2009
I see your point, but..
Laroche has more power.. and McCann is just tradtionally suited for the 5 hole IMO.
I-Miss-John-Rocker - July 31, 2009
I'd just rather have the better hitter hitting right behind McLouth, Prado, and Chipper
was385 - July 31, 2009
McCann is probably our best hitter, it would make absolutely no sense to push him down the lineup in favor of a mediocre hitter.
Lennox - July 31, 2009
You also want the most power in the 4.
LaRoche has got that.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Uh, no. You want your best hitters batting 1-4. Mac is the better hitter.
Lennox - July 31, 2009
Good God
Ladouche in the cleanup spot would really be too much for me to bear. I’d like him to either bat 9th or maybe 1st so at least he can’t hit into a double play the first time through.
Sir Stealth - July 31, 2009
Umm...
LaRoche’s DP% on his career is 12%. Kotchman’s is 16%, or 33% more often.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Wouldn’t Frenchy start in the 5-hole…oh wait…
Sparhawk - July 31, 2009
I think you keep it the way it is right now with Mcann hitting 4th and GA is hot so keep him 5th. Escobar can hit 6th and LaRoche hit 7th. Thats power up and down your lineup right there.
AlRoBraves95 - July 31, 2009
Kotch has made some clutch plays over there, especially when receiving throws.
godawgs - July 31, 2009
Exactly, defense at 1B is not overrated...
it’s critical to a solid IF since they are on the receiving end of every throw. A bad defensive 1B makes every other infielder look worse, and a good one can make them look a lot better.
Mr. Sanchez - July 31, 2009
Really?
Defense at the position most likely to be involved in any play is overrated?
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Yup.
Especially when there’s not THAT much difference between LaRoche and Kotchman anyway. These guys are both major league 1st basemen – it’s not like we’re talking about swapping Kotchman for a Dixie League 16-year old 1st Baseman.
I-Miss-John-Rocker - July 31, 2009
OH, ok!
So there is no difference between the defensive capacities of any 1B in the majors. Thank you for the clarification.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
This is going to be weird seeing him in a Braves uniform again
but I do like the move. Every year this guy is significantly better in the second half and he’s also a free agent after this season, which could mean Prado becomes the full time first baseman and KJ slides in at second.
was385 - July 31, 2009
JOKE OF A TRADE
This is a terrible trade. Why would Wren give away the best defensive 1B in the league for LaRoche? His past production is not an indicator of what he’ll do now. The Red Sox obviously saw something wrong which is why they let him go. Kotchman made two game saving defensive plays last night….and has made many more all year. His bat was even coming around. I just don’t like it. I hope LaRoche works out but I don’t like it.
Anarchy1 - July 31, 2009
Odd trade. Hopefully something else comes into play that the media hasn’t gotten their hands on yet.
Gage23 - July 31, 2009
I think we may end up being pleasantly surprised.
NCChopper - July 31, 2009
That’s what I’m hoping, too.
Gage23 - July 31, 2009
Roachie always hits a bomb when somebody around me disses him. It’s hilarious.
Lizziebeth - July 31, 2009
His bat was coming around...
And he was slapping singles and doubles around the yard. LaRoche will end up with 25 homers. Kotchman will be lucky to finish with 12.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Marlins got Nick Johnson at the last minute
TradeAndruw - July 31, 2009
Move to the next thread, please......
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 31, 2009
Last time he was on our team, we called him Adam LaDoublePlay
godawgs - July 31, 2009
last time he was on our team he had a .915 OPS and 32 homers
was385 - July 31, 2009
That is very true...
michaelcooksey - July 31, 2009
Was this trade really straight up? No cash?
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 31, 2009
Yes, cash to us
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
And..........
Far more Ks and mental lapses on D!
Jay212033 - July 31, 2009
he was considered a pretty good defensive first baseman when he was here
and I’d much rather have a significantly stronger hitting first-baseman who plays worse defense because as nice as having a gold glover at first is, it’s still first and the difference between above average and great really isn’t going to help your team as much as just about any other position.
was385 - July 31, 2009
LaRoche's UZR/150 since 2004
2004 -4.9
2005 -18.3
2006 -3.3
2007 6.7
2008 -8.1
2009 -3.4
Yakker - July 31, 2009
Disagree wholeheartedly.
I’m glad we got LaRoche, but 1B is the position where a player is most likely to get the ball on a given play.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Which is funny...
Because his career DP% is 25% lower than Kotchman’s.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Incredible. A head-scratching trade in the middle of a pennant race. Can’t wait to see to full terms of the trade…
ATLDuck - July 31, 2009
The BoSox are gonna let us win a game next time we play them, that’s the rest of the trade.
BravesRaleigh - July 31, 2009
LOL! Good one!
ATLDuck - July 31, 2009
haha
Sir Stealth - July 31, 2009
This seems alot like Bobby had a hand in this trade
Meanwhile, I feel like drinking.
Sid Bream's Moustache - July 31, 2009
Thank god it's friday...
michaelcooksey - July 31, 2009
Dumb Trade!!!
Jay212033 - July 31, 2009
this is going in every thread
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
At least LaRoche gets to say “hey” to McLouth.
lol
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 31, 2009
i believe its LaDouche
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
maybe not in the second half….
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 31, 2009
Shut the fuck up.
That is all.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Yeah, let’s be careful with adding too many Pittsburgh Pirates on this team. We all know how well they played together as a unit.
ATLDuck - July 31, 2009
yeah, but Nate is legit
McClutch
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 31, 2009
Yeah.
Let’s send Gonzalez back.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Fuck it
I’m gonna go pretend I have a life.
VivaLosBravos - July 31, 2009
+1
Buttafuco13 - July 31, 2009
What A Trade I Am Thrilled. The Only Position To Upgrade Was At 1B And RF
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
i wish we still had Frenchy! Split LaRoche and Frenchy would of been really nice. We have to many left handed hitters………………
AlRoBraves95 - July 31, 2009
having a RH hitter who cant get on base isnt useful..
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
The REAL question
Is will Laroche be holding any candle-light vigils for traded teamates anytime soon?
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
Hope not. I like the way our team looks right now.
I-Miss-John-Rocker - July 31, 2009
we're getting some cash from the bosox also
DOB just reported
bravesfan1047 - July 31, 2009
What is cash's OPS this year?
Sid Bream's Moustache - July 31, 2009
not the catcher Kevin Cash i think he meant money
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
That is the point
Cash does not make us any better.
Sid Bream's Moustache - July 31, 2009
Laroche does though
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
HOW???
HOW IN GOD’s NAME DOES A PLAYER WITH WORSE DEFENSE, WORSE OFFENSIVE NUMBERS AND ONLY A SLIGHTLY BETTER OPS MAKE US A BETTER TEAM???
sorry for the all caps.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
doesnt a better OPS mean a better offensive player?
Andy Braves Fan - July 31, 2009
not necessarily
in this case, it means Laroche has more power than Kotch…the OPS’s are less than .020 apart though, so it is pretty much a wash. Kotch has him beat in all other slash stats.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
I dunno
I liked LaRoche…I also understand why this was not a logical move. I am just really confused by the whole thing personally. I am not at all sure whether I like it or dont’ like it…
Andy Braves Fan - July 31, 2009
I am not sure if it will hurt us, but it certainly doesn’t make us any better, IMO.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
Which worse offensive numbers are those?
His RBIs? Oh, and by the way, their career OPSes are 70 apart. Not a “slightly better” mark in my book.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
2009
263 .263 .526 .789
.282 .354 .409 .764
You tell me who is who.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
bottom is kotchman
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
i wasn’t really asking…it was more rhetorical, but yeah. the bottom (better average, obp, worse slg and comprable ops) is the guy who is younger, under control, and cheaper.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
Three months of baseball...
Don’t tell the story of a player’s worth and ability. I’m sure the Sox are making up the difference in salaries, and they helped us clear what will be a very crowded position in the next 1-2 years.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
crowded by whom? Canizares and Freeman???
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
Well, certainly Freeman.
And by the time he’s ready, it strikes me Kotchman will still be good, Barbaro will as well, and Prado will need a place to play if my vision of Kelly as the long-term 2B is right.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
that should be a given.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
We better
LaRoche makes 7 mil compared to 3 for Kotchman.
Jay212033 - July 31, 2009
thats what i was thinking….
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 31, 2009
Good thing we got this done today, there was no way anyone of LaRoche’s caliber was going to clear waivers….
…
….
…
…
…
…
Bronn - July 31, 2009
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
Sox gave us $$$
says DOB
Scott Coleman - July 31, 2009
Sox gave us 8=======>
says Yakker
Yakker - July 31, 2009
LOL
bravesguy95 - July 31, 2009
Nice
I rec’d.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
Yeah.
Kotchman is gonna make a huge impact for them as a twice-a-week starter.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Great. So, they even gave us money to take him…
LaRoche is okay but it’s an interesting trade considering how Kotchman was heating up. Didn’t give us a big right-handed bat, nor did it improve our defense.
ATLDuck - July 31, 2009
I still feel like there could be more to this deal
I mean, Just because DOB says something… Well, He also reported that Ken Griffey Jr. was a Brave… maybe he doesn’t have the whole story at all yet…
Andy Braves Fan - July 31, 2009
yeah, but Griffey was kind of an “Indian-giver” lol
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 31, 2009
Normally I am not one for doomsaying and stuff
But we got thoroughly bitched by the Phillies and Marlins at the deadline.
Thank god we still have pitching.
Sid Bream's Moustache - July 31, 2009
…and thank god the trade deadline is pretty much over.
ATLDuck - July 31, 2009
Yeah
We would have moved Yunel for David Eckstein and cash if we had some more time
Sid Bream's Moustache - July 31, 2009
that would be dumb trade of the year
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
………………
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 31, 2009
it was a joke
bravesguy95 - July 31, 2009
i hope so
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
and furthermore not much worse than this deal
bravesguy95 - July 31, 2009
yeah ok because Casey Kotchman had so much power right? Damn punchy-juvey slap hitter at 1B.
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
guess you havent been paying attention to the braves lately
bravesguy95 - July 31, 2009
SERIOUSLY!
He’s had like 5 homers in the last month! He’s almost up to a league-average slugging%…for a 2B.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
It wasn't close to funny.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Obviously.
I saw that rumor in about 30 places.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Remember that one time
after LaRoche was traded to the Sox and he said that he was glad to be on a team that wanted him?
Heh.
13thieves - July 31, 2009
FW said earlier that he didnt want to 'disrupt the chemistry on the team'
maybe by adding Adam thats what he ment? if CK was causing problems Adam is very well liked? who knows?
i still think theres something else brewing
bravesfan1047 - July 31, 2009
Braves.com
http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090731&content_id=6169036&vkey=news_atl&fext=.jsp&c_id=atl
grantparkbrave - July 31, 2009
Again
making no sense.
“The Red Sox had a glut of left-handed bats, and sent Adam LaRoche to Atlanta, reportedly for Casey Kotchman (A LEFT HANDED FIRST BASEMAN)
This trade makes little sense on either side.
Bronn - July 31, 2009
Yeah, it’s like Theo came up with that garbage excuse and Wren just bought it.
ATLDuck - July 31, 2009
They want a late inning defensive replacement for VMart.
Lennox - July 31, 2009
That statement was a bit silly.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
+1
Agreed.
John Holton - July 31, 2009
Red Sox suddenly had a “glut of left-handed bats”, so they decided to replace one with another.
ATLDuck - July 31, 2009
Another one of these moments...
ATLDuck - July 31, 2009
I just updated the original post with this
I just got the press release, and we get “cash considerations” along with LaRoche. So the Red Sox will be sending some salary our way, not sure how much yet.
gondeee - July 31, 2009
that makes sense hopefully like 5M
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
hopefully 4-5 mil
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 31, 2009
Hopefully it was $20-30 MM.
Lennox - July 31, 2009
I bet it'll be like the Francoeur deal.
They’ll pay to flip the salaries back.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Kotchman was batting .280 with 6 HRS and u think hes Albert Pujols LMFAO
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
LMFAO @ you thinking that.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
who?
who said OH NO WE LOST KOTCHMAN HE’S LIKE ALBERT PUJOLS!!!!
No one, right?
RichmondBraves - July 31, 2009
No1 did I am just saying you cant be too mad about this trade we upgraded at 1B in the power department. 1B and RF needed to be improved good job FW once again.
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
well see about that
in about a week after you’ve had watching laroches long ugly swing wear on you for a while
bravesguy95 - July 31, 2009
compared to Kotchmans slapping the ball oppo for a single.
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
Dude!
Those are the most valuable hits in the world!
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Sure, we upgraded in the power department, but we downgraded in EVERY OTHER department.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
If it’s true we got some serious cash out of this deal, I think I’m fine with it. The only way it really didn’t make sense for me was the big control/monetary difference.
Still, I’d rather not see Freeman starting next year.
Bronn - July 31, 2009
Prado.
He’s a good defensive 1B, and his bat is consistent enough to play there.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
not in team chemistry and a great clubhouse guy. His 2nd half numbers are great and he can pick it at 1B. Maybe none of you watched the Braves when he played for us.
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
You mean back when he was in his prime, and cheap, and under control? Yeah, I watched the braves back then too.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
hes only 29 not 40
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
so he is 29…past his prime, more expensive than Kotchman and a FA in 2 months.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
just say....TYPE A
apoxonbothyourhouses - July 31, 2009
…or B…
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
Not even a B
http://www.scribd.com/doc/17870577/Rankings-073009
Stephen Schmidt - July 31, 2009
if im reading that right… GA is really close to being a type A..whic would be awesome…
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
We won't offer him arb.
It would be really stupid.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
touche
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
and that certainly sucks… for those wondering LaRoche is on eth AL list there.. playing for Boston
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
I thought 26-31 was prime, with 28 being the most primed season…I know LaRoche’s best year was when he was 26, but he got traded afterwards to one of the worst places possible. A trade like that could surely explain the decline from age 26-29. Maybe a trade back to Atlanta can increase his spirits enough to put him back on track to how he played when he was younger.
bwellnjonesco - July 31, 2009
hopefully. I just don’t see it though. 06 was his year and I don’t think he will come close to that again, regardless of where he plays.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
His decline wasn’t that severe. He hit more doubles the next year, the new terrible team can explain atleast some of the decrease to the rest.
bwellnjonesco - July 31, 2009
27, actually.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
You must have only watched them when there was no possibility of grounding into a double play or striking out with less than 2 ours and a guy on third.
Sir Stealth - July 31, 2009
Kotchman grounds into far more DPs...
He runs like a snail.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
you didn't say it at all that way
And it depends on if you don’t value defense at all. If you don’t then yeah Adam LaRoche is a god.
RichmondBraves - July 31, 2009
………………lol
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 31, 2009
It’s not that we downgraded at first base, but we traded a guy who’ll be cheap for two more years to add a guy in his walk year. And the guy we got might be worse if you incorporate defense.
Bronn - July 31, 2009
Well Freeman will start next year with Heyward in RF we are loaded.
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
Freeman shouldn’t be ready for next year. I wouldn’t want him starting. ideally, he’d be a midseason or September call-up next year.
Bronn - July 31, 2009
Barbaros.
The way Wren is going……only he knows what’s next.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 31, 2009
BRING UP THE YOUNG GUYS!!! THEY ARE READY!
WHY DO YOU THINK WREN HASN"T ADDED THAT BAT YET???
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
NICE
+1 for using my signature
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
it was in honor of you!
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
The 19 year olds? Yeah.
Lennox - July 31, 2009
I seem to recall this 19-year-old kid named Jones who did ok as a starter.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
So what were we going to do with Kotchman at $5 mil next year...
When Freeman is ready to take the job in July?
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Trade him for Adam LaRoche?
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
Peavy to the White Sox...again?
WTF?
Scott Coleman - July 31, 2009
I hope he vetoes it again
Sid Bream's Moustache - July 31, 2009
what? Is he even playing ?
ATLDuck - July 31, 2009
As of a few weeks ago...
He was 50-50 to play this season. Obviously, that goes up if he’s got a postseason to play with.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Go pitch for Obama, Peavster!!! Oh, no wait…..don’t!!! No wait……do!!!!
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 31, 2009
Nice
Yakker - July 31, 2009
If this trade works out then Wren really will be a genius, because right now no one who witnessed Ladouche actually play could like this trade for us. Yes, I know what his second half numbers have been. But I also watched the games. If it’s a clutch moment, he hits into the double play. If you just need him to make contact, he strikes out. When we played the Pirates earlier in the year and LaDouche would come up in a key moment, I laughed and felt very confident….and then he’d hit into a double play, just like he would for us. I loved it when we traded him for Gonzalez and don’t even feel that confident in Gonzo….basically I am just not a fan
Sir Stealth - July 31, 2009
This is so far off-base
In 2006, he had a 1.002 OPS in late and close games, almost 100 points over his total OPS for that season. He had an .892 OPS in games where the score was within four runs and that got better as the game got closer, up to a 1.134 OPS for tie games. The year before he had a 1.117 OPS with 2 outs an RISP and in late and close games his OPS was .973.
was385 - July 31, 2009
Thank you.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
This is the Guy I remember!
HEYJUDE - July 31, 2009
it is funny though that the pirates have come full circle and gotten nothing out of that trade
cirela20 - July 31, 2009
You guys are hysterical
It’s funny how everyone on here hated the guy when he was with us because I remember him being very well liked when he was a Brave the first time around. He put up a .915 OPS with 32 homers the last time he was in Atlanta, including a 1.042 OPS in the second half. Every year this guy hits like a top 10 firstbaseman in the second half and yet the sky is falling.
You all castrated Wren when he acquired Kotchman because he didn’t hit that well and defense at first base wasn’t that big of a deal. Now we’ve got a better hitter (at least in the second half) and a pretty good defensive firstbaseman, and all of a sudden that defense is worth pure gold.
was385 - July 31, 2009
Don’t lump me into that group. I wasn’t a member of this blog then, and I am sure most of the people in here right now weren’t either….
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
LaRoche
is not a pretty good defensive 1B, let’s get that straight once and for all.
Also, I was a huge Kotch fan at the time of the deal and have stuck w/ him all the way, even when the majority of the guys here were trashing him in March.
Yakker - July 31, 2009
cheer him on the pine then lol
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
he really is though
He’s not as good as Kotchman and his range isn’t very good, but he turns a ton of throws each year that would get away from most firstbasemen into outs.
was385 - July 31, 2009
Eyes vs. stats
Yakker - July 31, 2009
first of all, I really don't subscribe to defensive metrics
because two or three years ago, people were berating me and telling me how I was an idiot not to use defensive metric A and now the same guys are saying that metric A isn’t good and metric B is now the one that is absolutely correct.
Second, which metrics determine a guys ability to scoop balls at first?
was385 - July 31, 2009
D metrics aren't perfect
but they’re the best we have. Certainly better than ad hoc visual observation by a (no offense) non-professional.
Yakker - July 31, 2009
UZR is pretty good for outfielders. I really don’t like it for infielders, and it’s near useless for 1B. The entire thing is dependent on range for players who are moving back toward first base on 95% of all plays in the field.
Bronn - July 31, 2009
Well
I don’t have access to +/-, but I’d bet Dewan grades out Kotchman as a better 1B there too.
Look, I get that defensive metrics aren’t perfect, but they’re our only common ground for discussion. Some guy telling me on the Web that he played 1B for a few years and LaRoche is a good 1B means absolutely zero. There’s no common ground for discussion.
Yakker - July 31, 2009
true story
cirela20 - July 31, 2009
no offense taken
but I’ve played the position for ten years, stopping last year after my senior year of high school. I’ve got a pretty good knowledge with that amount of experience and studying of the position to understand the defensive requirements of the position.
was385 - July 31, 2009
whoa, whoa, whoa….
you are counting 6 years of AAU (AT BEST) experience in your argument???
I played SS for 9 years (and quit after HS). That doesnt make me an expert on how to play defense at SS. (Oh, and I was a pretty damn good defensive SS too – state awards, etc).
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
I've been eating pizza for 20+ years.
And I still make the mistake of ordering Pizza Hut.
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
yeah I am
I’m not just some bum who’s never played and just watches the game. And you know what, you probably know a hell of a lot more about playing SS than me and most of the other posters on this site.
was385 - July 31, 2009
I doubt it. Playing a position in HS and LL doesn’t make one an expert on MLB-level talent or skill requirements.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
they may be better at it
but it still takes the same fundamentals
was385 - July 31, 2009
I don’t deny that. But, I would think that MLB-level talent has the fundamentals pretty much down. It is the other stuff that seperates them from each other.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
I agree with you on that at just about every position
but not first. First is not an athletically challenging position, what it does take is really good fundamentals and footwork. Go watch Keith Hernandez in his playing days, I can’t think of anyone better ( I hate the guy as an announcer, but boy was he amazing at first). I don’t think you will ever see better footwork around the bag and especially on bunts. The position is all about fundamentals.
was385 - July 31, 2009
I don’t think it is any different. Every position requires a player to be fundamentally sound and have great footwork.
But whatever. This conversation is going nowhere fast. lol.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
Andruw Jones has amazing instincts, footwork, and fundamentals
but he is a fatass now and I’m sure is pretty bad defensively at this point in his career. That’s the point I’m trying to make, if you have mediocre range at most positions, you really can’t be a good defender there, but that’s not true at first.
was385 - July 31, 2009
UZR
Actually thinks Andruw is super in his limited OF opportunities this year. It’s mostly in left, but a guy on FanGraphs was speculating that Andruw could still play a decent CF.
Bronn - July 31, 2009
UZR
everyone is pretty useless in small samples. He may because of his instincts, but I don’t think he would because his knees and he is so slow, but as a DH for a team I rarely watch, I haven’t been able to see him in the field in a while.
was385 - July 31, 2009
Hey that’s all fine and well, but it really doesn’t mean much to me. I’ll stick with the metrics, you stick with your personal impressions.
Yakker - July 31, 2009
is there a metric that accounts for a firstbaseman's ability
to field throws from the other infielders? I’m completely serious on this, I do not believe UZR is but I’m not sure about some of the other ones because I’m not using my experience to say that he’s a great defensive first baseman, I’m using it to say that playing a good defensive first base is a lot more about footwork on throws and scooping balls (something at which Laroche is one of the best in baseball). Range is part of it but a ball that doesn’t get scooped generally has the same effect as one that the first baseman doesn’t get to.
was385 - July 31, 2009
Don't know
But how do you know that LaRoche is “one of the best in baseball” at scooping throws? Do you watch all 30 teams on a daily basis?
This is fundamentally the problem with visual observation of one’s home team player, even if it’s done regularly. Frankly, I think your AAU time may actually be a disservice when it comes to evaluating this skill. Most major-league 1Bs are probably exceptional compared to your experience.
Yakker - July 31, 2009
I agree that they are, but what are you talking about?
How would having a good knowledge of proper footwork or what it takes to be a good defensive first baseman make me know less than you? You and the other guy I’m discussing it with seem to think that defense completely changes in pro ball compared to amateur ball. It really doesn’t and considering that first base has a ton more to do about good fundamentals than most positions (which are a lot more about instincts or athletic ability), I would argue that it gives me a pretty good knowledge of what the requirements are.
And how do we know that Yunel has one of the better arms in the game? Do you watch every team on a daily basis? How did we all know that Andruw Jones had some of the best instincts in the game? Did we watch every team every game? You can raise this question from almost everything. But I watch pretty much all Braves games and I watch a lot of Yankees and Mets games, and just random games, so I see a lot of different first basemen. That’s how I know. We’ve been spoiled with Kotchman, LaRoche, and Teixeira, but there are a lot of first basemen who really do have a ton of trouble at scooping balls.
was385 - July 31, 2009
but you werent even playing amatuer ball…you were playing little league and highschool. there is a huge difference in skills at the next levels.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
do you know what amateur means?
I don’t know if you think amateur means minor league but that would be considered semi-pro.
was385 - July 31, 2009
I do
Amatuer does NOT mean little league or highschool. It generally refers to summer leagues for college players, independent leagues and other such leagues. Not highschool or little league.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
that is part of amateur ball
but amateur refers to anybody not paid. Regardless, this is pretty much a moot point, but thanks for being obnoxious about it just for the sake of it even though you knew exactly what I meant.
was385 - July 31, 2009
Semi-pro?
No, the minors are pro, period. Every player on the roster is paid.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
No, but guys who do that (scouts) said as much.
I have yet to hear of a scout saying that Laroche is a good defensive 1B.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
oh, so you have talked to scouts who have told you this?
was385 - July 31, 2009
nope. But I have read scouting reports and listened to them comment on TV and radio.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
During his Braves days, I heard numerous accounts that he was one of the better firstbasemen at handling throws on TV.
and btw, here you go:
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/playerScouting?categoryId=154555
http://www2.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/players/Adam_LaRoche/
http://www.fenwaywest.com/2009/07/411-on-laroche.html
In fact, the only place I saw a negative report on his defense was from BP, which I’m sure they just took from a metric, which I don’t believe includes anything on his ability around the bag.
was385 - July 31, 2009
Wow...interesing highlights:
That non-slug part, particularly, is a big upgrade.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Because you evaluate off a baseline, yours. What seems exceptional to an AAU player isn’t really that special for a major league 1B.
And I know absolutely nothing about playing 1B. Not a thing. But that isn’t the argument.
Yakker - July 31, 2009
and you're evaluating off what exactly?
Stats? You admitted yourself that you have no idea if a first baseman’s ability to field throws at the bag is included in any defensive metric (Which I’m arguing is the most important skill), yet you’re telling that he is absolutely not pretty good at the position based off of those metrics. How exactly does that work?
was385 - July 31, 2009
I'm w/ justin
This isn’t going anywhere, so my last post on the topic, then I need to get some lunch.
Look, I admit I cannot visually determine on an ad hoc basis which ML first basemen are defensively superior to the others. I am not a professional scout. (Unless, I missed something, neither are you.) That is why I rely on metrics.
I have no idea whether LaRoche is among the best in the majors at “scooping,” nor whether that is as important a contribution to a player’s defensive WAR as you claim.
My only point was that your decision to ignore defensive metrics because they may/may not include scooping and to go with your visual observations is imprecise, at best. How do you know LaRoche is among the best in the majors in scooping? I’ll ask again, do you watch all 30 teams on a regular basis
Yakker - July 31, 2009
I'll answer again
Between watching mets, braves, red sox when I’m at school, Yankees games, and nationally televised games, I’ve probably seen close to every first baseman for at least a little and most for a pretty significant amount of time. Just like I know that Yunel and Furcal before him had amazing arms, Jurrjens has a very good change, and Lowe has a real good sinker, I know that Laroche is very good at picking balls out of the dirt at first. And if metrics don’t include the guy’s ability to field a ball, then I’d argue they should be as useless to you as you think my point is because they are incomplete at best.
was385 - July 31, 2009
If you are readily admitting that you don’t know anything about defensive metrics and how they work, then why are you even commenting on whether they are effective or not?
What offensive metrics adjust for quality of fielder? They aren’t perfect either so I guess we just shouldn’t bothering recording anything.
VictorW - July 31, 2009
I know how they work
I just don’t use them or really take that much out of them because in two years, there is going to be a new metric and anyone who still uses UZR is going to be called an idiot because it’s not a good stat, just like all the other old defensive metrics (Rate2 anyone?). And again, how does something like UZR account for the first baseman’s ability to scoop balls or his footwork on balls around the bag. I played first base for about ten years, I’ve got a pretty good feel for the defensive requirements of the position.
was385 - July 31, 2009
he is a below-average defensive 1B.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
I never liked Laroche
and I will admit, I dumped on Kotchman for a while.
But the fact of the matter is, he increased his performance level to the point where I consider him a better 1B then Laroche.
Sid Bream's Moustache - July 31, 2009
Well, everybody can speak for themselves I guess, but he sure as hell wasn’t well-liked by me when he was a Brave the first time around. I have no confidence in him putting up those big numbers with anything meaningful on the line, and I definitely did NOT castrate Wren for salvaging us a decent hitting great fielding first baseman for Tex the first time around. I do not believe that LaDouche will hit better than Kotchman from here on out (the D just makes it worse).
Sir Stealth - July 31, 2009
Really?
I will bet my shirt LaRoche OPSes higher and has better run-producing rates than Kotchman does over the rest of the year.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
if you havent noticed your sentiments are in the minority
so perhaps you are the one who is hysterical
bravesguy95 - July 31, 2009
The guys are pretty much dead even in terms of their offensive impact (Kotchman has been pretty hot lately…LaRoche not so much) and one guys is controlled for a much longer period of time more inexpensively.
We made a move that’s basically equal value for THIS season, and loses value greatly following this year.
Bronn - July 31, 2009
Every year
the guy hits like a top 5-10 first baseman in the second half. It’s not some one year anomaly that made his numbers shoot up. From 2006-08 his numbers were always significantly higher the second half. I will pretty much guarantee that Laroche hits much better for us than Kotchman did.
was385 - July 31, 2009
Every year?
His career OPS in July is .908.
This year his July OPS is .504. That is a HUGE difference.
Trends are not absolute proof.
Bronn - July 31, 2009
Also 2005
FWIW
Yakker - July 31, 2009
I guess I just have faith that he will hit
was385 - July 31, 2009
So wait...
A hot streak by Kotchman means that’s how good a hitter he is?
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
When we’re talking about a time-frame of just two months, who’s hot will have a great bearing on which is the more valuable of two guys who basically equal hitters.
Bronn - July 31, 2009
So two weeks of good hitting...
Implies he’s going to be great over the next two months?
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Also
People who believe LaRoche will outproduce Kotchman are absolutely COUNTING on him getting hot.
Bronn - July 31, 2009
Oh...
And freeing up $5 mil has plenty of value.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Peavy to Sox, Halladay to Angels?
Peavy…Has to approve it.
Halladay…Not liekly.
Scott Coleman - July 31, 2009
halladay was not traded
according to MLBTR
Andy Braves Fan - July 31, 2009
ya...
but Peavy is close to finalized.
Scott Coleman - July 31, 2009
Looks like Poreda in
Yakker - July 31, 2009
Casey Kotchman is a bench player at best along with Ryan Church why dont u think the Red Sox will put him on the bench.
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
what?
Casey Kotchman is going to be on Boston’s bench because Victor Martinez and Kevin Youkilis and Mike Lowell are all better 1B.
RichmondBraves - July 31, 2009
Lowell is a better 1B thats funny he plays 3B and he is injured.
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
yeah he plays 3B.
Also 1B. You see, some players can play multiple positions.
RichmondBraves - July 31, 2009
don’t bother. You are talking to someone who thinks it was a mistake to trade Frenchy.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
Go look at his Fangraphs page and tell me how many innings he’s logged at 1B
bigjoe - July 31, 2009
you seriously need to stop posting.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
I wasn't gonna say it
but thank god someone else did
bravesguy95 - July 31, 2009
because u r the man
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
u r the man
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
yeah…..no errors in how many games…….well, yeah. technically. lol
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 31, 2009
this would be a fun lineup for tomorrow
McLouth
Prado
Chipper
McCann
Esco
GA
LaRoche
Heyward
You guys feel me?
Scott Coleman - July 31, 2009
yea we will probably see Heyward in AAA very very soon then in sept call him up
bravesfan1047 - July 31, 2009
with Connie on the bench and no Norton!?!? yay!!!
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 31, 2009
this
Gage23 - July 31, 2009
can I this this too?
NCChopper - July 31, 2009
no
Why rush Heyward. Makes no sense.
RichmondBraves - July 31, 2009
this
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
Yeah.
Speculative rosterbation=rushing a prospect.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
if that was the lineup tomorrow that would be rushing a prospect. Which was the point i made. successfully.
RichmondBraves - August 2, 2009
is it rushing when a guy is hitting .450?
yondaime4 - July 31, 2009
Also, this.
If he’s ready, it’s not rushing him.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
but thats kinda a hindsight sort of situation…we only know we rushed him if he fails…so isnt it better to err on the side of caution
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
Not really.
If he’s not ready, we move him back down. Do you think Schafer is destined for failure forever because he didn’t hit well for a few months?
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
no because he “failed”…because he is a badass and didnt tell anyone he wrist was essentially worhtless… he didnt “fail” cause he couldnt hit he “failed” becuase he was hurt…
and i dont think him struggling and getting sent down is a destiny of failure… but id rather a player stays up when he gets up (hehehe, i shouldnt make that joke as a guy but its funny)
By bringing him up, him struggling, sending him down, and bringing him back up…. even if he is at the same level as compared to just letting him develop a little longer… you have lost sme time in his career… a month or two isnt a big deal, but it could be for one season.
I always err on teh side of caution on bringin a prospect up… esp when they are a cant miss.. as Heyward is…. im all for promoting him to AAA by AUG 15th and seeing how he does there and if he still rakes then its something we need to consider..
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
Right...
So you give him a shot at every level and decide if he seems ready and feels comfortable himself.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
welll it seems everyone wants to being him up today… in 2 weeks if he hasnt shown any signs of slowing down at AA… promote him to AAA… he still hasnt shown that power we hear about… its doubles right now… I know those turn into HR… but itd be nice to see him hit for a bit more power outside of BP
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
He's 19.
It’s obviously a small sample, but his time in AA projects to 77 doubles and 23 homers over 162 games.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
like i said… he needs to work on some things
/sarcasm
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
I'm happy to have LaRoche
But I’m upset it cost us Kotchman. I thought the deal was great, but when I learned Kotchman was leaving I wasn’t a fan of the trade anymore.
Time will tell
RichmondBraves - July 31, 2009
If it’s more or less an even trade, could this simply be for team chemistry improvement with money to boot?
I’ll admit that I always liked LaRoche but I’ve also come to admire and appreciate Kochman.
I’m just gonna have to trust Wren and the Braves know what they’re doing and hope we get more details soon.
NCChopper - July 31, 2009
It’s basically even for the balance of this year…but we gave up a player we control next season for a player who’s going to be a FA. That’s why I don’t like this trade. We gave up a bit of long term stability…for what? We didn’t upgrade the position.
Bronn - July 31, 2009
Yes we did.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
+1
award6 - July 31, 2009
Probably just shooting the breeze, but how hard would it be to sign LaRoche for one year or before (basically before FF gets the call)? FW and the Braves went out and traded back for him. After his issues with the Pirates and now that he’s a Brave again with Chipper, Mac, McLouth, etc…would he be willing to sign at a discount from his current contract?
award6 - July 31, 2009
Probably not hard, but would still cost more than Casey’s arbitration. It’s a rather costly lateral move.
Bronn - July 31, 2009
Yeah, I preferred Casey, but I’m hoping Wren has something thought out for beyond this year…
award6 - July 31, 2009
Prado at 1B.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
So what do we do...
with Kotchman under control and Freeman ready to start in July?
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Why would he even consider a one year deal?
Lennox - July 31, 2009
Everyone who is sitting around screaming ZOMG FREEMAN IS GETTING THE CALL NEXT YEAR…you’’re having one crucial oversight.
Barbaro Canizares.
bigjoe - July 31, 2009
Barbaro/Kelly
on the right side of the infield. Woof.
Yakker - July 31, 2009
yeah. I’m not all that worried about the future of 1B in Atlanta.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 31, 2009
I’d be worried about the prospect of Barbaro being our answer at 1B next season.
Bronn - July 31, 2009
I’m not. If we don’t resign LaRoche, I think Barbaro will be fine for one season. He puts up good numbers at every level of minor league ball.
secondbsmn - July 31, 2009
He’s been old for every level of minor league ball.
Bronn - July 31, 2009
will Laroche be a type A?
that would make 6 picks in the first 2 rounds of a DEEEEEP draft next year.
apoxonbothyourhouses - July 31, 2009
He’d be type B.
Bronn - July 31, 2009
Do you have a recent projection?
Just curious.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Wrong...
http://www.scribd.com/doc/17870577/Rankings-073009
Stephen Schmidt - July 31, 2009
Whose list is this?
WTF is scribd?
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Law fed some info to a guy who figured out the rankings formula
MLBTradrumors has been using it for about a year (thats where the link is from). It was dead on last season.
Stephen Schmidt - July 31, 2009
Those rankings are from ELIAS
they’re legit
VivaLosBravos - July 31, 2009
Just checking...
The link just weirded me out.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Actually, no.
Elias doesn’t release mid-year rankings.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
It is the elias formula
and it was updated last night
Stephen Schmidt - July 31, 2009
...Someone's approximation of their formula?
Also, given that the rest of this year will be about 20% of that value, and his typical second-half splits, I’d say he has a chance to improve that ranking.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
I have to imagine that the Braves will make....
re-signing one of Gonzo and Soriano a priority. Probably Soriano…
Andy Braves Fan - July 31, 2009
Prado, anybody?
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Peavy will be a white sox now, he waived the trade clause, but not up to the comish to approve it
bravesfan1047 - July 31, 2009
wow…Sox rotation now: Buerhle, Washburn, Peavy….others.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
Contreras?
Andy Braves Fan - July 31, 2009
washburn went to detroit
but white sox still look nice
shariyar - July 31, 2009
oh yeah…ooops!
thanks!
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
Word is Padres got Richard and Poreda and more
Yakker - July 31, 2009
Dexter Carter and Adam Russel… if its not already been said
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
I think I am sad....
and I know Garret will be. He’s losing his Angel-buddy.
sddbaker - July 31, 2009
we're fucked
apoxonbothyourhouses - July 31, 2009
LaRoche next year
It doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me, but the only thing I can think is that Wren thinks that “Bert” (our nickname for him back in the day b/c he looks like Ernie’s friend) will hit like the Crimedog for two months. Then we’ll offer arbitration which if he declines we’ll get a sandwich pick. If he accepts then we’ll have him for one more year and then Freeman will be (hopefully) ready.
13thieves - July 31, 2009
I seriously don't know how I feel.
This deal is bittersweet for me. I was a LaRoche fan from the beginning, and was quite sad when he was sent to Pittsburgh after a 32 HR, near 90 RBI season, only to be replaced by Scott Thorman & Craig Wilson. Sure, we eventually got TEX, but how did that work out?
And I’ve liked Casey Kotchman since we got him, except for his apparent lack of pop. But I LOVE his glove, his patience at the plate, and he has shown some recent signs of adding that much-needed power. I like his attitude and his overall play.
But this trade confuses me. I don’t see the logic on either side of the deal. On one hand, I’m glad we got Adam back but NOT at Casey’s expense. I’m trying to keep an open mind and hope that Adam can get us 12 homers or so down the stretch.
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
Lineup next year
trade chipper to the astros for geoff blum and hunter pence
mccann to rangers for saltalamacchia nelson cruz and feliz
mclouth and mike gonzo to the mets for francoeur and carlos beltran
resign laroche
2b Prado
SS yunel
cf Beltran
lf Cruz
RF Pence
LaRoche
CF schafer
C Saltalamacchia
3b Geoff Blum
DAMN WERE GONNA BE GOOD
bravesguy95 - July 31, 2009
Um...I'll pass. But thanks for the input!
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
this is very important
PUT DOWN THE ALCOHOL
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
Wren will be on buck and kincade at 5:30 (680 the fan)
anyone know if he’ll talk earlier?
StottsEra - July 31, 2009
No Impact until next year
I really don’t think that this trade will impact our team for the rest of year very much. I do think that this, coupled with not dealing for a outfield bat is probably a sign that we are going to go with the youth movement next year with Heyward, Freeman, and maybe Schafer again. We have to remember that Soriano is a free-agent and he will more than likely need a pay raise from his 5.5 million for this year. And we need him.
michaelcooksey - July 31, 2009
soriano is making 6.1 M this year
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
Does anybody see Hohn actually being reprimanded by MLB for his shittiness? Or is justice in MLB a lost cause?
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 31, 2009
The latter.
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
supposedly, they asked for the braves to send them the tapes. They are at least looking into the situation.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
The fist bump was the tip of the fucking iceberg. If that STILL warrants no action, then the system is fucked.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 31, 2009
good
hope they make him shave or be suspended.
jjb5574 - July 31, 2009
I’m sure he’s got a “guy on the inside” (which is a joke in itself), who equally hates the Braves, and will let him off with a “stern warning and fine.”
lmao
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 31, 2009
That was in the afternoon.
By the evening, the crew chief said it had already been looked into.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
I hear we're trading Laroche for Pujols
bravesguy95 - July 31, 2009
i just knew Wren would find a way to turn this into a good deal
bravesguy95 - July 31, 2009
HAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHA BAHAHAHAH
oh wait that isn’t funny.
RichmondBraves - July 31, 2009
this coming from the guy with a campaign for langerhans as mvp in his sig? reality check man, were all just messing around.
bravesguy95 - July 31, 2009
then we flip Pujols for FYF, right?
jjb5574 - July 31, 2009
and luis castillo
bravesguy95 - July 31, 2009
Naturally.
The Keith Lockhart Era - July 31, 2009
Sorry for this
http://www.talkingchop.com/2009/7/21/957315/who-are-your-favorite-non-braves#18504189
I somehow feel responsible.
jug - July 31, 2009
WTF! I let the dust settle and this is what I get?
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
UUUGGGHHHHHH!
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
HAHAHA Jake peavy is a white sox again
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
Are you guys serious?
Everyone’s saying bad trade, bad trade. It makes perfect sense to me. The thing that was most missing in our team was power and Laroche gives us that. We don;t need Kotchman’s .280 average and 8 home runs a year, even if he is the best defensive 1B in the league. I’d rather have a guy who hits .240 and 25+ HR’s with plenty of doubles. That is what we need. Not to mention Laroche ALWAYS turns it on in the second half and he’s close with Chipper and Bobby. I think he’s going to do well for us.
pancanbra - July 31, 2009
Depends on how many more games we play with Hohn’s crew. They could seriously take us out of the Wild Card race, and fist-bump about it with MLB behind our backs.
far-fetched? I wish….
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 31, 2009
Damn straight
Laroche is not a 40 HR guy, but I’m gonna guess he has a good chance at hitting for more power than Kotchman, especially now that he’s back in Atlanta where I would think he’s wanted to be all along. I like this move. It shakes things up a bit. Sitting on our hands would not have gotten us into the playoffs, imo.
Bobby Cocks - July 31, 2009
I really do hope you’re right. I can picture it working out and him turning it on. I really just think it’s gonna be a lot more brutal double plays though.
Sir Stealth - July 31, 2009
Kotchman hit a few of those too, he’s pretty slow. The one thing people fail to understand that singles don’t do anything if there’s not a guy on 2nd or 3rd. We have a lot of guys that hit singles and we constantly end up with guys on and nothing to show for it. Also, rallies in the later innings and with 1 or 2 outs generally requires power. Not conesecutive singles.
pancanbra - July 31, 2009
This is true….but as someone who watches just about every game, LaRoche was a guy who always gave you that feeling that if it was a clutch situation, he was gonna do the worst thing possible. I remember rooting for him to strikeout time after time rather than hit into a double play, and he would always hit into a double play. I admit that my perception is largely subjective, but I just am not happy to see the guy back. I of course hope to be proven very wrong.
Sir Stealth - July 31, 2009
Your feeling is stupid.
His close and late splits are great.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
+A million!
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Like the kind Kotchman grounds into 33% more often?
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
I’d like to say, how is laRoche a big bat? He wasn’t 3 years ago, so how is he now?
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
32 HR & 90 RBI isn't big enough for you?
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
okay, didn’t know his stats
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
No prob... =)
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
His last year in Atlanta.....
32 homers, 90 RBIs.
.285 .354 .561 .915
Dandrews - July 31, 2009
Hey remember that brief sec when we thought FW flipped LaRoche for Votto?
That was awesome.
Yakker - July 31, 2009
I SOO wish that happened. THat was awesome
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
FYL
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
that was one of the best 30 seconds of my life
bravesguy95 - July 31, 2009
Seriously
I nearly wet myself. I just wish the fake deal didn’t have Schafer in it, then I would have seriously blown a wad.
Yakker - July 31, 2009
dude i was ready to run through the streets naked screaming in joyous victory at the thoguth of Votto on our team…
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
mmmm
you naked….
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
I'm obviously missing something
Yakker - July 31, 2009
if you haven’t seen swo naked then, yeah! You are missing something!!!
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
Sounds like somebody needs to fanshot
Yakker - July 31, 2009
That was a good few seconds before reality snapped back
award6 - July 31, 2009
i was laughing at all the idiots believing it.
RichmondBraves - July 31, 2009
^^^
Internet cool guy
bravesguy95 - July 31, 2009
yeah
It was really believable that the Reds traded Joey fucking Votto for Schafer and some scrub.
RichmondBraves - July 31, 2009
considering Schafer has pretty high upside and Laroche fills in at 1B.. and i beleived there would be more to the deal… like a pitcher from us… its at least conceivable… I mean the Reds are kinda dumb
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
this bat Taveras first every game he plays and he cant crack 330 OBP
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
Plus
We know Dusty likes his vets, and they just dealt a heapload of talent for Rolen. Yeah, it was a well-executed fake out, for sure.
Yakker - July 31, 2009
thats what im saying… it is a conceivable fleecing
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
wow nice grammar u asshole
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
Because LaRoche is a scrub...
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
in comparison to Votto
yep
RichmondBraves - August 2, 2009
One more time
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
Kotchman Quotes.....
“You’ve been traded already so you’re a little more used to it,” Kotchman said. “I’m a little surprised but not overwhelmingly surprised.”
“It’s been a privilege to play for Bobby Cox and his staff,” Kotchman said.
Dandrews - July 31, 2009
COME BACK!
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
He really got into a few this last month too…..but he really is hot as much as he’s cold (not defensively, obviously)
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 31, 2009
Agreed
I won’t miss his bat. I don’t care what he’s done this last month.
pancanbra - July 31, 2009
a lot of ppl are talking power upgrade
ROBravo - July 31, 2009
That's because it is
pancanbra - July 31, 2009
oops
to finish, a lot of ppl are talking itsa power upgrade, but is that really a necessary thing at this point? I mean, Kotch was starting to heat it up and while he prolly won’t hit 20 HRs, as long as ppl are on base and he continued to hit 2Bs, doesn’t that score runs too? Am I mistaken that, other than the FLA series, we’ve been doing fairly well outscoring our opponents since the ASB? I’m simply not sure that i really like this move. Other than making room for Prado to man 1st or maybe Freeman next year, it seems fairly even. No real upgrade. Give up a few BA pts for a 12 more homers this year. Just IMO. I’ll need more time and info to really judge how i feel.
ROBravo - July 31, 2009
I think it is a big power upgrade and that is what we need on this team.
pancanbra - July 31, 2009
Kotchman would have been lucky to finish with 15 HRs.
That is not acceptable for a 1B. Oh, and as for how well we’ve been outscoring our opponents:
—O’Brien
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Thank You
Man, I feel like the only person saying these things.
pancanbra - July 31, 2009
Yes.
Pretending there is nothing wrong and we’re going to win every one of our games the rest of the way in spite of our recent issues seems to be the TC way. I’ve been yelled at for suggesting we might have problems.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Here's a question that should have been asked a lot earlier in this thread
Why did we make a marginal at best move, when we still have Kelly Johnson on this team and could have moved him for something we needed. I guess his value probably isnt real high right now but other than that i see no reason.
bravesguy95 - July 31, 2009
maybe because we see him as our future 2b.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
Then why post?
It seems you’ve answered your own question. I, for one, am glad we still have KJ. And I don’t care if I get flamed for it.
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
why trade KJ when hes good and young
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
Prado Maybe?
if you have two talented players at one spot and a lack of something else it makes sense to trade one to get the other.
bravesguy95 - July 31, 2009
Prado can play anywhere.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
(almost)
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
cant play SS, I dont think
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
Not much or very well...
But he has done it.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
I don't think anybody wants him
He’s incredibly streaky and still has pretty shoddy numbers for this year. People aren’t sure if his wrist is still hindering him. Not to mention that we’re still pretty far out of the playoffs so I don’t know if it would be wise to sacrifice a lot to make a push.
pancanbra - July 31, 2009
pretty far out of playoffs huh i doubt it
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
We are pretty far out of the division race and there are quite a few teams above us in the wild card race, which makes the games back much more daunting. Especially if we can’t win series’ against teams we’re competing with like the freaking Marlins.
pancanbra - July 31, 2009
7 games out of the east with 9 left vs the Phills we can make it up
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
4 games out of wildcard behind teams we are better than maybe u will change ya mind after the sweep of LA
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
i like your optimism
but your typing and grammar is downright painful
bravesguy95 - July 31, 2009
i didnt know this was a school project
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
It's not,
but your comments and opinions are better respected when you present them in proper fashion. I don’t know if you care about other poster’s respect, but it helps if you are grammatically/mechanically correct.
You’re still okay with me, though.
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
**correction**: posters'
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
okay thanks man
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
+1
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
yeah
We sure proved we’re better than Florida
pancanbra - July 31, 2009
Soriano blew a save he was due and it happens and we cant win when Bill Hohn umpires. R u a closet Phills fan?
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
Nope. Die hard Braves fan who apparently is the only one that sees holes in our offense.
pancanbra - July 31, 2009
at what position? wow i only see a small one in RF.
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
Chipper’s been inconsistent, Mclouth is struggling, RF is mediocre, a complete lack of power across the board. Did everyone just forget what our offensive numbers were before the breake?
pancanbra - July 31, 2009
that was when KJ was starting at 2B over Prado Schafer in CF over McLouth and Francouer was slumping in RF. But Chipper has been hurt for awhile but hes a great hitter I would not worry about 3B.
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
Clearly.
Because not rationalizing a series where our only win came in extras makes you a Phillies fan.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
this feels weird
but +1
RichmondBraves - July 31, 2009
Better than?
How do you figure? We obviously don’t have a better record.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
There are only 4 teams ahead of us.
And in the WC chase, that is not many. Just one or two good weeks and we can easily be at the top. A far cry from a couple years ago when we were 6 GB in the WC with about 8 teams ahead of us. The WC is still very doable. The East, not so much, but not impossible when we play the Phillies 9 more times.
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
It means that all four of those teams will have to lose 5 games more than us over the course of the end of the season. It’s more daunting than it sounds. There’s a reason no one is picking us as the favorite to win it.
pancanbra - July 31, 2009
Okay...3 good weeks.
I don’t want to get into semantics with you, but remember that the Mets gave up how many games in 3 weeks for the past couple seasons? My point is that it can be done, and it is not far-fetched.
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
Agreed.
I still have faith. I honestly think we have just as good a shot at the division as the wild card. But I dont think the wildcard is as close as people think.
pancanbra - July 31, 2009
FWIW, some of the guys on ESPN were picking us before the Marlins series.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
...And then that series happened.
What’s your point?
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
my point
was that some people ARE picking us to win the wc, contrary to what the poster whom I was replying to said.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
WERE
if we’re using capital letters in the proper tense.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
we lost two of three
THE SEASON IS OVER WE ARE HORRIBLE LET’S GIVE UP.
Because one series=the whole season.
RichmondBraves - August 2, 2009
Hasn't that happened twice in a row now?
MichaelProcton - August 3, 2009
we lost two series in a row
THE SEASON IS OVER OMG ABANDON SHIP
RichmondBraves - August 3, 2009
Kelly and Martini are the freaking ying and yang. It’s unfair that we have both as is. Which makes me happy.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 31, 2009
Final thoughts...
If we get “normal” second half LaRoche numbers this year (big if) this trade could work out for us. He is obviously a defensive downgrade, but most people consider 1B the least important defensive position on the field. If we don’t get the “normal 2nd half LaRoche” I think we got screwed and we’ll have to start from Square 1 this offseason to find a new 1B. Either way, I don’t think this is a monumental swing either way. Both players are basically mediocre players.
LaRoche’s pre and post all-star splits over the last 3 years.
Pre – .247 .326 .449 .775
Post – .314 .374 .578 .952
Dandrews - July 31, 2009
Waiting patiently for sarcastic remark from....
justincredubil02
Dandrews - July 31, 2009
Why? Why was that necessary? If you present a well-though-out idea like that, I cannot disagree with it. I only disagree with people who obviously are lacking in the facts department.
For what it is worth, I agree 100% with your sentiment here.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
Just kidding man relax.
I like a good arguement with you.
Dandrews - July 31, 2009
.578 is huge
pancanbra - July 31, 2009
The 1B for next year is on the roster...
Martin Prado.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Gigantic.
952 isn’t bad, either. Especially if we’re paying Kotchman money for it.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Do you think he has enough power to be a full-time, "power-hitting" corner infielder?
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
that never stopped Casey Kotchman.
RichmondBraves - July 31, 2009
It stopped us from keeping him,
and from him finding a permanent home. I’ll miss him, though. I’m still cautiously optimistic about Adam’s 2nd half prowess.
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
His bat is consistent.
Moreso than Kotchman, IMO.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
and given that we've got plus power up the middle...
We don’t need quite as much from our CIs.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
sure thing
Yunel & KJ/Infante can make up for it
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
And Nate.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
w
we have plus power up the middle… since when?
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
In this day and age,
you still don’t expect a whole lot of power from SS & 2B. Yunel & KJ hit around 15 HR a year. It’s relatively plus.
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
As stated above and below...
Escobar, Infante, Johnson, and McLouth have above-average power for the position.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Ah yes,
how could I forget about Nathaniel?
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
wait….aren’t you the same guy who was with me back when Prado first got the starting job at 2B when we were warning everyone that his numbers would come down because he is not an everyday player??? what made you change your mind?
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
No, I believe they will.
I also believe Kotchman isn’t a very good hitter.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Further...
My main gripe with Prado as the everyday 2B is that his defense there is awful.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
is this a joke?
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
its true and he waived the no trade clause
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
i’m actually speechless
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
why
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
padres just got basically nothing AND peavy waived his no trade clause…
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
scratch that… half of what they could’ve gotten from us
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
So where in your deck of cards does LaRoche land?
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
ahhh.. that is a good question. I’m on it
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
Kotchman was the Jack of Clubs so I might just put him there, he does have some pop
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
But he has more pop than Casey
so maybe a Queen of sorts?
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
true… I’m revising the deck… some upgrades are needed
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
lookin forward to it
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
IDK
They obviously wanted pitching, and they got a metric shit ton of it.
Yakker - July 31, 2009
u realzie that Poreda is a pretty highly touted prospect..Carter is a good pitcher in the lower minors with high upside, and RIchard has pitched pretty well this year in his frist taste of the bigs.
Not to mention when we talked it inlcuded peavy with us fro 2009, which doesnt happen for this deal… so Peavy’s value is lowered.
The Padres got a pretty solid haul considering Peavy is on the DL..
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
Agreed
However, it’s a little odd for Towers to go for pitching given that Petco turns basically anyone into a solid #2-3 (Chad Gaudin, anyone)…
Yakker - July 31, 2009
im not saying its a great deal.. but its different than what we offered, because the sitaution is different. I like the deal for the Pads, becuase im high on Poreda and RIchard… I dont know enough abotu Carter to speak of his future.. but i know he has some nice upside.
I do agree that they were better served to add position players or at least 1 position player…but to each his own
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
Yeah, I pretty much agree with all of this. Richard has a sweeeeet arm, and Poreda’s no slouch either. I guess Tower’s really wanted pitching, or maybe Kenny Williams was the only guy who was willing to give up anything halfway decent for a guy who’s on the shelf with no clear timetable for his return.
Yakker - July 31, 2009
i like Poreda more than Richard… but thats purely because Richard is at best a 3 (which is still pretty nice)
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
Hmm
Yeah, I have a really good feeling about Richard, but the conventional wisdom on him is #3/#4 as a ceiling (I think we could see a nice K/9 jump when he switches leagues and the possibility that he morphs into a #2).
Poreda’s lack of secondary stuff could be his downfall.
Yakker - August 1, 2009
...and could be for the rest of the year.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
well they thingk mid Aug…. but ur absoltuely right with his injury he might be back… its a bad trade from teh CWS standpoint.. but w.e im not a sox fan so
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
The last update was that there was a 50-50 shot...
as of a couple weeks ago.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
they got alot and he was injured making lots of $$$
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
doesn’t seem to be
ROBravo - July 31, 2009
Nope
Quite a haul for the Pads.
Yakker - July 31, 2009
God clearly hates the trade… its been raining since news broke out that Klutchman was traded
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
raining here too lol
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
funny, the skies cleared as the deal was made.
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
Weather happens. Bring an umbrella.
8 P
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 31, 2009
where are you?
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
in boston
bravesguy95 - July 31, 2009
you poor soul.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
i was saying the guy who posted this is in boston
bravesguy95 - July 31, 2009
hence the reason for clear skies
bravesguy95 - July 31, 2009
i’m so sorry.. going to cape cod next sunday…. I’d take watching Kotchman any day over Frenchy
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
im in boston to from Dorchester u?
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
how u know I am in Boston
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
youre not getting it...the guy said "funny the skies cleared as the deal was made"
and i said “in boston”.i wasnt talking about you my friend
bravesguy95 - July 31, 2009
ok sorry
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
I’m catching up here, but I believe one area this trade will be a benefit to us is in speed.
I like Kochman, but I’m sure his speed was not bulleted on his “skills list” in the scouting report.
If most things are pretty much equal, at least we may gain more bases if LaRoche is on base and the guy behind him in the order gets a hit. I personally recall a lot of times Kochman got the stop sign at 3rd when another runner wouldn’t have.
NCChopper - July 31, 2009
Eh
LaRoche isn’t an upgrade in speed. He’s a slow guy too.
Bronn - July 31, 2009
yes, he is a speed upgrade,
but its like upgrading from a snail to a hermit crab
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
This post made me remember LaDouche slowly galivanting around the bases to get inexplicably thrown out at home to cost us a crucial run in the Houston series the last time we were in the playoffs. I know he hit a grand slam that game and I still hate him for it. The guy just always seems to do the wrong thing at the wrong time. Better power or second half numbers aside, a guy who does the wrong thing at the wrong time is not the thing you wanna add to a team that has been clicking very well for a while now. It’s like putting a hole right back into an offense that finally got going once rid of all its holes.
Sir Stealth - July 31, 2009
u have yet to post anything meaningful… only things that lack factual evidence…. complaining about his GIDP (despite the fact he does it less frequently than Kotchman)… and making a retarded nickname “LaDouche”… grow up and actual make an argument against the guy that is based on some information not third grade insults and ignorance.
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
Sorry to have offended you – I’m not trying to write a thesis here based on statistics, I’m just saying as someone who watched just about every game that the guy played for the Braves, I am not happy to have him back. Did you watch him play? Were you confident that he would do anything other than the worst thing possible when he came up? Will you be now?
Sir Stealth - July 31, 2009
well considering he had an OPS in the 900s im pretty confident in his ability to contribute offensively, based on his time as Brave… I think the trade is a downgrade… because next year we wont be as good… and our depth is reduced. I assume Prado will play 1B more, meanign we lose our second best bench player. Assumign KJ plays second. If KJ cant play 2B, cause he sucks, Prado will play 2B and we need a 1B.
This year is a wash.. but i dont know what we are plannning for next year because i dont want to rush Freeman.
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
So you hoped Prado would stay on the bench?
If Kelly+Prado>Prado+Kotchman, why the hell not?
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
im not sure what you are asking… Im a beleiver in KJ’s track record… and i think Prado is most useful on the bench in terms of our depth..but if you can rephase ill answer better, hopefully
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
You want Prado on the bench.
But if he’s one of our best 8 hitters and he can capably play a position (which, strangely enough, he can’t at 2B), why wouldn’t you want him starting?
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
i dont buy his bat as much as others… he hasnt shown this ability before and i feel its a bit fluky… ill have to be convinced if he keeps it up… but id say Kotchman is better for a full season… and my biggest reason is
If Prado is playing first and Chipper goes down… who plays 3rd (infante, and we dont have any other utility guy to take over)… with Kotchman we can rotate Prado in and have him play 4-5 days a week at either 2B or 1B or 3B…he is still in the lineup almost daily and our bench depth is real strong…
Also, If Prado is our 1B, who plays 2B if KJ falters (i think KJ should be our 2B but i could be wrong)..
my reasoning is based off the contingencies of injuries and such… Ive like Kotchman all along… because im big on defense (although admittedly Prado is close to as good so )
in closing im talking out of my ass and will now stop
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
Conrad?
I mean, I really wouldn’t worry about bench flexibilty for ‘10 in July ’09 as one of your primary concerns. And hey, weren’t we a Kotchman or Jones injury from this emergency once Prado won the job? If we need to move Prado, shouldn’t we be able to bring up Barbaro?
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
i guess.. i was just a big fan of Prado playing the super utility role and im still gettin used to the idea of him as an everyday player… Conrad could be the next in line for the utility role, but he has never done it consistently in the majors…
and the reason we would be in the emergency is because KJ faltered… if that happens next year… wed be in a bit of trouble and id liek to prevent that as much as possible….
Plus as i mentioned im a fan of defense apparently Barbaro doesnt beleive in it .. .so im not as high on him
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
But...
The only reason Prado ever even had a shot at that super utility role was because Infante went down. He does the same thing really well. And I’m sure we’ll pick up his option at a $2.25 mil cost.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
it is crazy that we have two guys that good in that role.
yondaime4 - July 31, 2009
I concur.
Infante might have taken the 2B job before Prado if he had never gotten hurt.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
I watched him play.
I was confident he’d hit well on average (as his statistics suggest.) Given his history, I will continue to do so.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Hey, I certainly do hope that you’re right. Still hate the trade but I have been a big fan of Frank’s moves to this point so I do feel some reason to be optimistic about this one also. It is somewhat jarring when your team trades back for your (non B.J. Surhoff) least favorite player who you’d thought you were previously rid of
Sir Stealth - July 31, 2009
And I’m not sure what was so lacking in facts about that crucial play in the playoffs – did that not actually happen? I’d say as a response to anyone thinking that LaDouche is a speed ugrade, that’s pretty accurate.
Sir Stealth - July 31, 2009
A single instance...
does not tell the tale of a player’s overall ability.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
It wasn’t exactly out of character.
Sir Stealth - July 31, 2009
It's the only one you've pointed out.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Glad I used the word “may” – knowing that if I state anything I can’t back up with facts ….well you know.
I was hopeful LaRoche wasn’t as slow… oh well, I still like him being a Brave again and will be rooting for him to help us WIN.
NCChopper - July 31, 2009
He's not as slow.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
niiice
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
Has tonights lineup been posted yet ?
Wanna Hate 14 Straight - July 31, 2009
Wow, Bill Hahn is getting coverage on PTI for his actions against our Braves
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
THey're talking about the Hohn bump on PTI
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Wilbon is calling his participation enthusiastic and says he should be suspended
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
That was the first time I had seen Chipper's reaction
and it was priceless
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
Can’t get to a TV now, can someone post a link later?
blitzerlover - July 31, 2009
This
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
Not really link-worthy.
Kornheiser said he got caught up, Wilbon said his enthusiastic participation in the bump and his behavior should get him suspended and off of Braves games. It will be on at 6:37 on the Deuce.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
but suspension-worthy
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 31, 2009
excellent. points for saying "the deuce"
The Keith Lockhart Era - July 31, 2009
Haha...
I never refer to it as anything else. El OO is how I refer to the new college wing.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
CBWILK!!!
Dude you called it about 2 weeks ago, good call man.
rockybull - July 31, 2009
wait, what?
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
Cbwilk said that a LaRoche for Kotchman trade would be good and he said that perhaps the Pirates would buy into Kotchman cause he is there for a few years under contract. Obviously he said about the Pirates but still, the guy called it. He didn’t say that would happen but still.
rockybull - July 31, 2009
New Deck of cards
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
fail on the link: http://www.talkingchop.com/2009/7/31/971241/if-every-braves-player-was-a-card
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
So where's Adam LaRoche?
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
fuck. i new i forgot to change something
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
Personally I really like the move. I know Laroche is glad to be out of Pittsburgh and I don’t really think Boston was a fit for him. He’s gonna love being back with Chipper and Bobby and I really see him turning it on when he gets here.
pancanbra - July 31, 2009
I want your crystal ball.
I hope you’re right!
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
Plus
I don’t think any of you guys would be making this kind of fuss if Kotchman hadn’t hit the few homers and doubles he’s had recently. It’s like his last couple weeks made you all forget about his actual lack of power.
pancanbra - July 31, 2009
THIS!
+999999999999999999
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
this
this is honestly the only reason i’m upset, I can honestly say i hated kotchman up until the last few weeks when he started playing like he should be
bravesguy95 - July 31, 2009
I still wouldn't call it a lack of power,
because when he gets into one, he GETS INTO IT. I think “developing power” would be more accurate. I see Casey as a consistent 15-20 HR guy as he continues to play the game.
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
Well, having power and being able to hit homeruns are two different things. He still is more of a singles hitter than anything. He only flashed power during his rookie season and has yet to show the ability of hitting more than 10 homers in a season.
pancanbra - July 31, 2009
Fair enough
I actually liked LaRoche in ATL, and I’m glad to have him back. But like I said earlier, not necessarily at the expense of Casey Kotchman.
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
Sorry...
You don’t suddenly develop power at this point. It’s an approach and mindset issue, too.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
lol
funny, because I WAS defending him, even before his recent power surge. HRs are over-rated in terms of making a good hitter.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
Is SLG%? Is ISO?
Kotchman is a slap hitter. And 1B is not the place to put up with that.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
I do hope you’re right question my own reaction some because I am usually the eternal Braves optimist/positive guy – although it’s much more based on how much I did not enjoy watching LaRoche play in Atlanta than any tender feelings I had for Kotch.
Sir Stealth - July 31, 2009
I have to say Laroche frustrated the hell out of me too when he played here, but I honestly think he fits a need for us now.
pancanbra - July 31, 2009
will be some delicious crow for me if it pans out – and if not, he and Chipper can always go hunting afterwards.
Sir Stealth - July 31, 2009
How much cash are we getting in this deal?
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
I don't think the specifics have been officially released,
but people are musing about $4-5mil
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
ok
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
Yeah, they’re really gonna give us more than what his contract calls for
bigjoe - July 31, 2009
I must be confused...
and I apologize. People were discussing. He’s MAKING 5 million this year. I’m sorry.
Instead of sarcastically criticizing me, try just pointing it out in a sensible way, and then showing me the correct figure. I was only going on what others had been saying earlier, and I got my numbers mixed up.
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
a roll of quarters
bravesguy95 - July 31, 2009
no, that’s what we got in the FYF deal
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
?
We gave money in that deal.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
I would guess...
That we’ll get enough to cover the difference between Kotch and LaRoche. They’ve obviously got the cash.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
1.5M
Basically enough so that what we would have owed Kotchman we now pay LaRoche. We come out even on $ this year.
fphjr01 - July 31, 2009
http://bravesheart.com/2009/07/31/adam-laroche/
My analysis, which lacks people yelling at each other and being idiots….
bigjoe - July 31, 2009
if u dont have idiots why would we go there?… with no idiots… you can’t create inventive new ways to insult people and threaten their gentalia and thats my favorite part
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
+1
bravesguy95 - July 31, 2009
+1
The Keith Lockhart Era - July 31, 2009
+1 good read
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
what the heck are all these crazy stats?
ISO? UZO? WAR?
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
I like that analysis and pretty much agree with all of it, although I feel a great deal of personal emotional baggage with frustration at Adam’s play here washing back over me in waves today. I’m not sure I have much faith in his whole second half performance thing but would love to be wrong.
I wonder if it is in fact a possibility that we’ll shift Prado over to play first more, opening back up more playing time for Kelly while still keeping Prado in the lineup as a regular. My guess would be no for the most part – I think it’s more likely that Kelly will get a decent amount of playing time at Prado’s expense, which I disapprove of.
Sir Stealth - July 31, 2009
Interesting note about the Turner Field splits.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
wait, so does Barbaro come up for like a day. I feel so bad for him
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
see Connie/BJones/Blanco even
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 31, 2009
while we’re at it, why don’t we just send down Diory and DFA NOrton and bring up REAL players along the lines of Brooksy/Burke and those two or Barton
GoBravesNY - July 31, 2009
+1
pancanbra - July 31, 2009
Really?
Brian Barton and his 727 AAA OPS?
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
If the rest of the MLB like Norton as much as the Braves did he’d be the one traded for Laroche. What a waste. Same with Diory.
pancanbra - July 31, 2009
Has anyone already suggested...
starting Kelly at 2nd and platooning Prado and LaRoche?
VivaLosBravos - July 31, 2009
Not.
I don’t know that people are sold on KJ having it “back” yet.. But if Bobby thinks he does, the platoon splits for those guys suggest it could be a very good move.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
I like Prado at 1st or 3rd, over 2nd.
But once Infante comes back, it’s one of those “problems” that you can laugh at.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 31, 2009
Factual.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Gonna weigh in....
here. Hoooorayyyy. One of the sweetest swings in baseball.Big, looping, but my oh my when Adam is hot….he can carry a baseball team. Kotchman was solid, but could not , even when sizzling. I love this acquisition and think it is the best so far this year. Lefty bat or not, Adam is where he should be. Go Braves!!!! To all the wizards and their stats here… Frenchy is playing much better than Church, and Jason Bay is looking pretty bad these days……hope I spelled everything correctly
mikie baseball - July 31, 2009
I like your sense of humor (...wizards and their stats... / ...hope I spelled everything correctly)
But I share your optimism. I’ll just miss Casey. I don’t know if I’d go as far as saying Adam can CARRY a team, but he sure can be one of the main cogs in the machine. *fingers crossed*
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
Frenchy can kiss my ass. He would have never been playing the way he is in Atlanta. He definitely needed a change of scenery and probably needed to get away from TP. I still don’t regret the trade, because Church thus far has been an upgrade defensively.
pancanbra - July 31, 2009
TP had nothing to do with it.
He’s a little bitch. Neither Pendleton nor anybody else can change that.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Francoeur has had 50 ABs...
Let’s take a look in two months.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
CHIPPER on ESPN
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
Says he would vote in Barry Bonds for the HOF
because he would have been in Cooperstown, regardless. He however stated that when it comes to the guys that used the juice to elevate their game to become borderline HOF’ers, he would have a hard time voting them in. This was all in regards to Manny/Ortiz’s names popping up in the 2003 report.
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
Damn.
My recap was being typed. ;)
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
ha...we are right there.
pointing two fingers from my eyes to yours repeatedly***
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
That warms my heart.
No, seriously.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Laughing out loud.
Cool…it’s fun to have a PIC. I’m hoping we can get a win tonight to kind of lighten the general mood around the board.
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
From the DOB story
So we’re paying Kotchman money for LaRoche for the rest of the year.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
and so we are getting about $4 million from Boston.
So, my figures were correct earlier before someone rudely made fun of my comment. I feel vindicated! Ha.
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
Not paying for the full season though
Will only be the difference in salary for however much season is left I think.
Sir Stealth - July 31, 2009
True.
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
It's actually about $1.6 mil.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
And that's obviously prorated from the yearly salary, correct?
I think we’re speaking the same language, different dialect. I was speaking in terms of the whole season, while others are speaking for the 2nd half of the season.
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
Yes.
That is the difference between what he and Kotchman will get from now until the end of the season.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
So for those of you who caught it,
what do you think of Chipper’s comments on ESPN in regards to PEDs & HOF caliber players?
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
pretty accurate. I was HOPING they would do a segment on the ump situation….
This might sound fucked up, but if I was given the chance to plug Hohn with no evidence pointing to me……I would do it. Easily.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - July 31, 2009
It definitely sounds effed up.
Not sure I’d PLUG him (after all, it’s only baseball), but I could see myself hiring a professional, annoying person to forever harass him.
Jareth Cutestory - July 31, 2009
I don't think it'll hit SportCenter until and unless Hohn sees some discipline.
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Freeman
our starting 1B opening day, 2010. jeeesh…let’s hope the kid’s ready.
apoxonbothyourhouses - July 31, 2009
...or Martin Prado or Barbaro Canizares?
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
Laroche ADD
Lets hope Adam’s ADD has gotten better. He used to always make mental mistakes at 1B. I swear I saw him staring at butterflies once…
TheBraveDude - July 31, 2009
I think he's on a prescription at this point...
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
The Real Question
Will Bobby still have Laroche in a platoon!
MUWAHAHAH
UltimaParadox - July 31, 2009
Bad Move.
Look the year is over, I mean here we go again getting back our old players ??? Only good point of this deal is that LaRoche will hopefully be let go so we can go after a power hitting 1B in the off-season.
Bad move, but hey at-least he has 13 dingers to Casey Kotchman’s what six ???
Six freaking homers are you kidding me ??
Good bye Casey !
Holty_Panthers_Fan - July 31, 2009
"The year is over?"
How do you figure?
MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009
What a freakin day
Atlanta makes a move that has many of us scratching our heads, the Braves get shut out tonight, all of our Wild Card competition seemingly got considerably better…and for the nightcap? ESPNClassic is showing our 2004 game against the Diamondbacks – in which Randy Johnson threw a perfect game against us.
Awesome.
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
Great Trade
What the hell is Boston doing? Stocking up on 1B? They get Kotch & Victor today in Trades. 4 1B on their roster (Big Papi is a utility player though and Youk has been playing 3rd a lot lately).
I like this deal, Defense is overrated at first, and LaRoche can get the job done over there. Adam really wanted to return to Atlanta, and it’ll be good seeing him in a Braves uni again. The great thing is that we get 2nd half Adam, who should be launching balls into the Turner Field Pavilion for the next few months!
Ninerballin - July 31, 2009
Yes, because a 1 win swing on defense isn’t a huge deal at all
bigjoe - July 31, 2009
it what world is Bid Papi a utility player?… he cant field any position let alone multiple
Swo12bv - July 31, 2009
You know, DH and 1B…he is a multi-talented roid-user!
justincredubil02 - July 31, 2009
...allegedly.
MichaelProcton - August 1, 2009
I can see the reasoning...
LaRoche has more power, and power is the one thing our team has lacked. But I’m not sure he’s much, if any, upgrade over Kotchman because Kotchman will post a higher OBP and plays better defense. Plus, Kotchman’s under control for 2 years and LaRoche is a FA after 2 months. I guess that’s the organization putting their faith in Freeman, but ever since Scott Thorman, I’ve been afraid of rookie walk-ons.
But looking at it from a pure lineup standpoint, we traded a #7 hitter for a #4-5 hitter, so I guess it nakes sense in that regard.
FineHamAbounds - August 1, 2009
How about Hanson?
MichaelProcton - August 1, 2009
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