Talking Chop

Praying, hell...

They’re straight cutting chickens’ necks at the altar of Joboo, leaving gifts of rum and cigars all amidst a ring of black candles.

I’m game for trading for this guy even if it costs us some good prospects. The problem remains, what do we have now that is valuable and tradable? Our valuable and obvious trade chips of Morton, Gorkys, Flowers, etc are all rightfully used up. Does KJ have enough value left?

I’m not trying to rosterbate here but I’m just wondering what do we have left (that can be let go of) to deal for anything?

bbxxj - July 28, 2009 reply

This guy is stupidly sick. I watch a ton of OAK games, and Wuertz has nasty, nasty stuff.

bye bye

Cole Rohrbough and Cody Johnson.

BlueVol03 - July 28, 2009 reply

Have you read something or are you just guessing? Because that actually seems like a pretty decent deal to me, at least at first blush. A little bit of a shame to sell low on Cole, but Beane loves power-happy OFs and live arms, and the Braves get a very nice bullpen piece for the next two years, and a little bit of Medlen-insurance should he stumble as closer next year.

Wow...

“Should Medlen stumble as closer?” Given that he’s, umm, fallen on his face every time he’s come into a game that was anything near close, I’m thinking I don’t want him as a closer next year, or, frankly, ever.

while i agree that he shouldn’t be closing next year, let’s not say a player can’t fill a role just because he has struggled in his rookie year

and i meant fill the role down the line. Don’t really see Medlen ever being a full time closer but let’s not base that off of a few short months in the majors

Medlen actually came up as a closer in the minors until the last year or so

yondaime4 - July 29, 2009 reply

And how many successful ML closers were in that role coming up?

Not many.

Someone is going to have to close once Soriano and Gonzalez are gone. I share some of your concerns about Medlen, but the reality is that he’s probably the internal odds-on favorite for 9th inning duties next year, if the two guys at the back end walk.

This is precisely why adding a guy like Wuertz makes sense.

Sorry, I do not see that happening in the slightest.

Why would Bobby not go to Moylan first? He certainly trusts him more, and he’s shown to be a better MLB pitcher.

Even then

i doubt the Braves just let Soriano walk

drumzalicious - July 29, 2009 reply

As a closer on the open market, Soriano will likely fetch something like $18M/2. For a guy with his injury history, I think the Braves would be crazy to resign him.

then wouldnt it be crazy for another team to sign him to 18/2 with his injury history?

Swo12bv - July 29, 2009 reply

Yes.

But there are plenty of teams out there that have money like that to blow, consequences be damned.

Moylan has not been the same since Bobby thrashed his arm. Also, selecting GB pitchers with average K rates and poor command as closers is not typically a successful strategy.

I think you are overreacting to 37 major league innings in which ATL bounced Medlen around, asking him to do a little bit of everything.

He had good command in Mississippi and Gwinnett and better K rates than Moylan both in the minors and in his brief stint in ATL this year.

He would be a significantly better closing option than Moylan.

Really?

His ability not to walk minor-leaguers means he’s ready to be an MLB closer next year?

MichaelProcton - July 30, 2009 reply

God, you read way too much into what people write and are overly sarcastic.

That says a LOT coming from me!

justincredubil02 - July 30, 2009 reply

I just don't understand the logic or reasoning...

behind the original statement that Medlen is the best closer the Braves have under contract for next year.

MichaelProcton - July 30, 2009 reply

Didn’t say that.

Yakker - July 30, 2009 reply

Then what did this mean?

he’s probably the internal odds-on favorite for 9th inning duties next year

MichaelProcton - July 31, 2009 reply

Just

a guess. I actually pulled it out of nowhere but thought it would be a deal I’d do, for either team.

BlueVol03 - July 28, 2009 reply

Cody Johnson is the opposite kind of player the As like.

yondaime4 - July 29, 2009 reply

I’m not sure I like this. Why would the Braves trade a future starter and a project bat with super human power for a reliever?

I’d rather Hudson go to the pen or Kawakami.

Sparhawk - July 28, 2009 reply

I have a feeling that when Hudson is ready to return to the rotation the only place KK is heading is the DL with the “tired shoulder” he has been sporting for some time now. It appears he just isn’t physically capable of logging the innings of a full major league season as a starter, at least at this point in time.

Mountngrown - July 28, 2009 reply

This a hundred times over.

Because neither features in the Braves long-term plans, and Billy Beane isn’t going to trade away an effective, cost-controlled reliever for some magic beans.

Either/Or.

I’d be willing to consider trading either of those guys for Wuertz, but not both…

Anytime anyone trades good prospects for relievers I always have fears of what the Mariners did in the 90’s, getting Heathcliff Slocumb for Jason Varitek and Derek Lowe — one of the worst trades evar. And they also traded Jose Cruz, Jr. for Dan Plesac. You can’t make panicky trades for relievers.

gondeee - July 28, 2009 reply

Larry Anderson for Jeff Bagwell

buzzdeadwax - July 28, 2009 reply

Horacio Rameriz for Rafeal Soriano

bwellnjonesco - July 28, 2009 reply

Minor Leaguer John Smoltz to the Braves for Doyle Alexander

BeantownVol - July 28, 2009 reply

to Be fair Doyle Alexander was traded for the stretch run for Detroit and they made the playoffs with him going 9-0 and they won their division. John Smoltz was a 20 year old getting hammered in the eastern league at the time.

yondaime4 - July 29, 2009 reply

We SOOO won that one!

Titansfan9 - July 28, 2009 reply

Doyle had a great year and won them a division title. They got what they wanted

graf - July 28, 2009 reply

She was talking about Raffy.

Check that up button.

It’s debatable whether Cole and Cody can still be considered good prospects. Cole hasn’t looked much better repeating in 2009, and Johnson has serious flaws in his game. I trust ATL’s scouts to know whether these guys have a future in the organization or would be better as trade bait.

But Johnson has improved those flaws so much.

Are you willing to deny that?

K rates

2008: 37.8%
2009: 37.6%

I don’t see the “improvement.”

Everything else has gotten better.

Contact rates, BB%, EYE ratio. Strikeouts are a bad thing, yes, but if he’s not going to be able to fix that, progress in the other areas makes him a more realistic shot to one day make the majors.

Guys who strike out nearly 40% of their ABs in High A ball aren’t good bets to produce in the major leagues. Could it happen? Sure, it could. But you’re better off letting someone else make that bet. Thus, trade bait.

Maybe the A’s would be interested in getting the “great” Kelly Johnson in return?

RaffyGonzo - July 28, 2009 reply

Doubt it

They are pretty high on Eric Patterson and don’t really need another 2B project.

Some of the guys on AN are looking for Jordan Schafer. LOL.

I gotta agree with Jayson Stark here; trading for a relief arm is pretty hit or miss, because you’re trading for someone with a lot of innings on his arm already and probably isn’t fresh. We need to be leery and only trade someone of consequence if we’re convinced that this relief arm is indeed what we’re buying.

soup du jour - July 28, 2009 reply

If the price is right

OK.

PWHjort - July 28, 2009 reply

I wonder who this “under-the-radar” arm might be?

Mountngrown - July 28, 2009 reply

Julio Franco

No one would expect that.

i dotn care what we have to give up… Im all for it

Tony Pena, Jr.

gondeee - July 28, 2009 reply

Ron Gant?

For the record

Go Dan Haren! Beat Da Phils!

yeah, really....

sddbaker - July 28, 2009 reply

I'll be there again tonight

And I’m stoked to see Haren and Hamels pitch

Scott Coleman - July 28, 2009 via mobile reply

Please don't trade Kelly Johnson.

I’m going on record here, which is very unusual for me. Kelly is going to be very, very good, and if we trade him, we will all be sad at some point in the future. I will be sad now.

sddbaker - July 28, 2009 reply

Me too

but we are in the minority here…

WeNeedDavidJustice - July 28, 2009 reply

Add me to that list…

Mountngrown - July 28, 2009 reply

4thed

PWHjort - July 28, 2009 reply

+10

Titansfan9 - July 28, 2009 reply

+11!

+ a bunch

We’re better with than without him.

Plus, his trade value has to be at an all-time low this year, between the injury and the poor production. Worst time ever to trade him. Don’t do it.

+110

yes sir

yes ~~sir~~ ma’am

FIXED

mvandonsel - July 28, 2009 reply

thanks lady.

he was being polite SDDBaker is a female

i know. and i know. it was sarcastic, since i know he is a male.

fail…on me…

What ever happened to

Will Startup?

Last I heard he was still rehabbing w/ mark prior.

And I have no idea why his name came to mind.

Chesterhighwater - July 28, 2009 via mobile reply

Last I heard....

….Startup was substitute teaching in Cartersville, GA. No kidding. I’ve asked on the Padres blog (Gaslamp Ball), and nobody has any idea about him. I’m hoping he’s still pitching and will be back with the Padres maybe next season.

secondbass - July 28, 2009 reply

His brother teaches and assists the baseball team there so that wouldn’t be too far fetched. Crazy delivery.

Chesterhighwater - July 28, 2009 via mobile reply

Numbers look good, but he seems to already have a lot of innings and outings on his arm.
Which means he’d fit right in!

award6 - July 28, 2009 reply

I don’t like trading with Oakland. See: Devine.

And yes, I know he’s out this year.

TradeAndruw - July 28, 2009 reply

I Do.

See: Hudson, Tim.

POW!

Seriously, we kind of owed them

buzzdeadwax - July 28, 2009 reply

Nice.

I’ve always liked Wuertz and would be thrilled to add him to our ’pen in a fair deal.

http://www.willlaurenstartup.blogspot.com/

will startup

will is the man been throwing 100%

TMAC85 - July 28, 2009 reply

I guess it depends on if you believe that Wuertz’s control this year is for real. He is averaging about 1.5 BB less per 9 this year compared to his career avg. Using the excess value chart on Beyond the Boxscore, a fair offer is one of Johnson/Rohrbough and a C grade pitching prospect under age 22 or 23 (cant remember which). Obviously I think Oakland asks for Johnson given his power numbers and Rohrbough’s struggles. So Cody Johnson and a C grade pitcher for Wuertz, who offers approximately a 1 win improvement from here on out, is a fair offer. I just think another team would be ready and willing to match that offer

I could live with that offer. I have this vision of Cody growing up to become another Ryan Klesko, mashing homeruns with a low OBA… but totally lacking his overall awesomeness and camouflage pants.

The king had a career .370 OBP. You must be thinking of the wrong Ryan Klesko

bigjoe - July 28, 2009 reply

The king?

Well damn… I stand corrected.

But I still don’t see Cody having that kind of success at the major league level. Not sure if that puts me in the minority here…

I just think another team would be ready and willing to match that offer.

And that’s why Rohrbough/Johnson is probably necessary to get it done. Some people might cringe at that price, but it’s not crazy.

If the Braves scouts have serious reservations about Rohrbough and Johnson reaching their potential then it wouldn’t hurt as much but if we still view them as on the track to the major leagues then I can’t see us making that offer. I have doubts about both, Rohrbough seems like the pitcher where you wait for the numbers to match the talent but it never does and Johnson’s K rate scares the **** out of me. I’d have more of a problem trading Rohrbough, maybe a different pitcher (not teheran, spruill, or kimbrel either)

Fair points

Waiting on Cole is like waiting for a flush on the river. If it comes, it pays off big, but you’ll go broke waiting.

Wuert'z slider

is the most whiffed upon pitch in baseball this year.

VivaLosBravos - July 28, 2009 reply

B/c no one is whiffing on Smoltz's slider this year?

No, seriously… I have no idea. I haven’t seen him pitch this year, but the stat sheet is brutal. Always seems to come down to those big innings, two outs, then BAM! Life’s tough in the big market, but I really wish him the best. Unless, of course, it’s an Atlanta-Boston World Series this year.

Thread-jack ended.

This would be an even better deal than when the Braves acquired Tom Martin as their situational lefty in 2005, or 2004. Whenever…..

2004

Anyone have some Brain Bleach I can borrow?

i hesitate to trade more prospects… i still worry about what tyler flowers and all those guys we sent to texas are going to end up as, e.g. when we watch them play in their first all star games

fizzbot - July 28, 2009 reply

Flowers didn’t have a spot on this team and he got us a helluva pitcher, not to mention we’ll get some nice prospects in return if we trade him this off season.

Feliz or the SS (blanking on the name) could be really good one day, but that’s baseball. Teams win trades (JJ and Hudson) and lose trades (Tex and Wainwright).

As long as the prospects arent Schafer, Heyward, Freeman or one of our better young pitchers (Spurill, Teerahan, etc) in the minors, im fine with a deal.

Elvis Andrus is really good right now.

He’s the best defensive SS in baseball, and he hits just fine for a rookie middle infielder.

yes, i know. i just didnt know the name.

You also said could be one day.

I think that day is already here.

Really?

I don’t know much about UZR, but both Wilson and Hardy rated out significantly better than Andrus in that stat. Actually, Elvis and J.J. have identical WAR.

Eh...

I ‘spose that’s true statistically, but I seem to recall Andrus worked through some rookie jitters early. Say what you want about the value of FP and errors, but the kid doesn’t have a single error this month (after 12 March-June…sure wish there were fielding logs) For as good as his arm and range are, that’s kind of scary.

Andrus.

No doubt he’s great in the field, but I just don’t know about that bat. He has never displayed any sort of power and lacks the average or on-base skills to balance that out. I also don’t know what to make of a career 71% stolen base success rate in the minors suddenly nearing perfection (90%) in the majors. I believe I’ve read comps to Omar Vizquel and, even if he is a bit better, that mold seems to fit.

well

in a SS you dont really look for any real power its more of a plus if you have an SS with power

drumzalicious - July 28, 2009 reply

Yes, the bat is a concern.

Then again, he’s also a 20-year-old middle infielder in the majors who never even saw AAA. If he can pull his OPS up around 750 (which, I’ll admit, he rarely saw in the minors), I think his defense alone makes him a top 10 MLB SS.

I guess

you don’t know about a guy named Escobar in Atlanta, I’d take his defense over Andrus’s

Ninerballin - July 28, 2009 reply

And this is why you are not a major league scout.

Yunie makes more boneheaded errors than almost anybody.

This

was true until Bobby took him out to the woodshed. Although Bobby’s woodshed usually holds a candlelight dinner for two and a fine wine selection compared to most other managers. But getting pulled out in the middle of the game sent a message, and I think Yunel’s game has improved because of it.

Might be the hitting too.

Sometimes, success/comfort at the plate will lead to enhanced focus and play in the field (or so I’ve heard it spoke.)

we won on both trades the Tex and JD Drew…because we got exactly what we wanted… we wanted a mashign 1B who could protect Chipper and fix a glaring weakness in our offense.

In Drew we wanted a guy with good pop and ridiculous on base skills…he had his best year ever. We gave up prospects…it justs so happens in both cases the prospects panned out really well. Id make both trades again. Im upset the prospects we gave up ended up being so good… but they just as easily could have failed miserably (see. Tim Hudson for dan meyer, charles thomas and juan cruz).

When you trade prospects for proven players you are getting what u want the proven player nad hoping that the prospects you traded dont bite u down the road…but if they do u still got what u wanted for the deal.

Damn its friggin annoying explaining this constantly

the drew trade is fine with me, he led us to the playoffs. We didn’t make the playoffs with Tex and that makes it a loss imo

this

that’s a ridiculous notion… By this logic we lose every trade that doesnt result in us winning the WS. Teixiera probably exceeded our expectations that year… the reason we didn’t make the playoffs was we didnt have the starting pitching. the Teixiera trade had nothing to do with us not making the playoffs. We weren’t have been anywhere near the playoffs w.o him… and we thought we could win in 08 with him (as we remember the season tanked with the patchwork pitching and FYF downward spiral, but again none of that was teix’s fault).

Could our resources been better used to acquire pitching instead of a slugging 1B? Thats a legitmate argument…but our offense wouldnt have been good enough to take us anywhere. The front office was trying to continue our streak of division titles and we moved some prospects for a piece we needed. It didnt work out but that doesnt make the trade a bad deal.

Also, we got Ron Mahay who bolstered our bullpen and pitched pretty well in 2007. which turned into a second round pick.

We made the trade thinking it would get us to the playoffs, it didn’t. That’s what you call failing. Maybe it isn’t Tex’s fault but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t a bad move.

when you get a superstar like Tex if you don’t make the playoffs, it was a bad move. Getting a guy like McLouth can still be a good move if you dont reach the playoffs but a superstar has to take you to the playoffs. If the Phils got Halladay and still missed the playoffs they would be pissed not happy if he pitched well but the rest of the team was terrible

so the Teixiera trade the Angels made was bad for them?… they traded Kotchman a releif prospect for the best 1B not named Pujols… he catapulted them towards the best record in baseball and then they didnt win the WS.. so its obviously a bad trade

Please don’t open this up to discussion over whether that was a bad trade for us.

Swo12bv - July 29, 2009 reply

No.

They gave up relatively little for a guy who helped them hold their place as the best team in the regular season. We gave up a ton for a guy who did not get us into the playoffs.

Circular reasoning. The Tex trade had nothing to do with the final outcome. The Tex trade was a win, simply because he put up monster numbers for us. How was it a bad move? Would NOT trading him have resulted in a playoff trip? Almost certainly not!

No we wouldn’t have made the playoffs but we would have been better served keeping some of the players and then trading a couple of the others for more controllable players

What would be the point of having lesser players who are more controllable? I’d rather take my shot with a great player over the next 2 seasons (remember, he had a year and a half left) than mail the season in and build for the future with lesser talent.

Obviously it’s hindsight 20/20 but I would’ve kept Feliz and Andrus (at least for a little while longer) and then packaged the other pieces of the trade for Nate McLouth type players, cheap, young, talented but controllable. I thought we would have done better to just rebuild then make a last ditch effort at another division title, if you looked at our staff you knew the problems went beyond 1B

But when you "take a shot" and don't make it...

You’re left with nothing but a gutted farm system and a new hole at 1B to fill.

yeah. That gutted farm system has really been a drag on our team lately.

It's certainly been a drag on our overall organizational depth.

No denying that.

I was being sarcastic…that Tex trade has not hurt our farm at all…if it did, we wouldn’t have been ranked the 3rd best system in the majors by BA.

justincredubil02 - July 29, 2009 reply

Fixed

if it ~~did~~ didn’t, we would~~n’t~~ have been ranked the ~~3rd~~ best system in the majors by BA.

it did hurt our system..becuase we would have those players… but thats not even the point

the point is that the trade was made and we got what we wanted… it stupid to look back at trades and say whether they were good or bad becuase of the outcomes produced.

the only bad trades are ones where u trade too much for a guy who is shitty. like if we traded Escobar and the prospects for Peavy (im not clling Peavy shitty, but the taltent isnt balanced in the deal)… that would have been a bad trade…

Swo12bv - July 29, 2009 reply

Exactly...

If the final outcome was to be the same those two years, why not keep those great kids in the system?

because we had a shot. we took our chance and missed. Not because we traded for Tex, but in spite of that fact.

Sorry, man...

I just don’t see it that way. It cannot be a successful deal having not led to success on the field.

well

actually it did lead to success. We had a great lineup. the only problem was the pitching was terrible.

Tex did his job when he was here he cant help the fact that basically our whole team last year was on the DL. thats not his fault thats not the organizations fault either. No one saw that coming AT ALL.

If we had Tex in our Lineup right now it would be completely different but who’s to say that our rotation would still be this good.

point is there are to many variables to point and say that we should have never traded.

I mean if we had NOT made the trade and still didnt make the play offs the last to seasons you would be mad about it.

We would have a blocked Catcher, a Blocked SS, only thing we would have of value would be Feliz

drumzalicious - July 29, 2009 reply

you stop with all that logic and good sense!

Not exactly.

We lose every trade that guts our farm system specifically for the purpose of acquiring a player who will put us over the edge and get us to the playoffs.

this

...that does not result in us getting to the playoffs.

Sorry.

This would be a hela good addition to our pen

nick9314 - July 28, 2009 reply

yezzzir.

Would Seattle’s Mark Lowe be considered “under-the-radar”?

RaffyGonzo - July 28, 2009 reply

i would guess so. i thinking an “under the radar” type reliever would be a young kid who could project as a 8th or 9th inning guy. But im not so sure i wanna give up more prospects to add one reliever.

Holty_Panthers_Fan - July 28, 2009 reply

I am game !!

I would only offer them Kelly Johnson an some junk arm that has no chance of making it to the major league level. Their is no doubt we need another arm but at not a very high cost; Kelly needs to be gone an so does his salary. We have Prado, an Infante and at-least one more year (Infante). Make this deal or another but don’t sell the house or farm to do so.

Because the A's would definitely make that deal!!!

(Sacrasm)

While we're at it

Let’s send Shayne Moody and Jeffrey Lorick to them for Trevor Cahill. We get a great SP prospect under long term control, and they get a pair of guys who’ll never be any good!

I like your thinking

they we will trade James Parr and Brandon Jones to the Padres for Adrian Gonzalez. It would be sooooo easy…

Parr coming back to the pen should help as well.

graf - July 28, 2009 reply

Actually...

The outrageous Adrian Gonzalez trade proposals were much better before he fell off the face of the Earth…

BURN HIM AT THE STAKE, HE’S A WITCH

bigjoe - July 28, 2009 reply

Make Texas trade us Feliz back!!!

That a boy - July 28, 2009 reply

i read something the other day saying they were promoting him to the majors as a reliever to get him there faster.

looks like that never happened lol

drumzalicious - July 28, 2009 reply

Feliz.

While he’s still an impressive prospect, he’s slowed down some this year in AAA. He’s a reliever now, and though I’m sure that’s meant to be temporary, we’ll have to wait to see what happens with that. He still hasn’t done anything at the major league level…

He's 20.

How many pitchers are in AAA by then at all? If he were still down in AA repeating what he did last year, would that somehow be more impressive?

He's 21

and has been since May 2.

Not sure what you missed in the post above but it’s clear Feliz hasn’t been as impressive this year (for whatever reason). No, repeating with similar numbers at AA would not be more impressive but neither is his increased hit rate at AAA. Nobody said the kid isn’t a special talent, in fact ejruiz very clearly said he is still an impressive prospect, but taking issue with saying he has slowed down is a bit ridiculous.

scstrato - July 28, 2009 reply

I'm suggesting none of that should have been unexpected.

I’m sure you can look one up, but can you think of a (barely) 21 year old who has dominated AAA?

gooden, sutton, palmer, ankiel, king felix, phil hughes … to name a few.

You basically just said the same thing ejruiz said yet you somehow took issue with his statement.

scstrato - July 28, 2009 reply

Actually...

Gooden and Sutton never hit AAA by the time they were 21, going straight to the majors. Palmer got slapped around there in a couple of starts before being promoted anyway. Hughes was good there at 21, but he only had five starts. Frankly, I think Feliz could be putting up a mediocre line in the bigs as a starter or reliever, but they’re choosing not to rush him. The point I disagree with is that I have very little doubt he’ll be an exceptional major-league pitcher for years to come. I don’t think he’s a guy we’re going to need to wait and see on for anything other than injury concerns (although those are certainly present.)

Braves fan since 1966 - July 28, 2009 reply

Sorry, I'm not for trading

a first round draft choice from 2006 that is only 20 years old quite yet. For anybody, much less a 30 year old relief pitcher. IMO Cody needs to be given a couple of more years to see if he can fix his strikeout problem. He has 10 years on Wuertz plus the fact that he effects games EVERY day as a position player.

Most baseball people cite AA ball as the rung on the ladder that separates the men from the boys. I’d like to see Cody given a year at AA before a decision is made to keep him or trade him.

He’s a terrible defender with a huge strikeout problem. If you think that he has a better chance of fixing those problems than falling off the map, you’re way overvaluing johnson. I don’t want to just give him away but for a dominant lefty like Wuertz who would be under our control for 1.5 seasons and potentially draft pick compensation I think you’d have to consider it.

Not sure if you know this and that was a typo but Wuertz is a righty.

scstrato - July 28, 2009 reply

Thanks for the catch

He's not a terrible defender.

He’s a bad one. And he’s still learning to play the OF.

I’m not saying that he can’t improve but let’s not make him untouchable just because he shows amazing power

Wait a minute, now.

There is a difference between making a player untouchable and not wanting to trade him for as little as a setup man.

I wasn’t talking specifically to you with the untouchable comment, some people seem unwilling to move him, at all. I’d deal him for Wuertz if I didn’t have to give anything else up of value. Wuertz is an excellent setup man, is closer insurance if we lose soriano and gonzalez, and could possibly net draft pick compensation. Obviously I wouldn’t start with Cody but I think that’s where things would inevitably progress too