From K-Ros this morning, perhaps another outfielder we are looking at adding:
The Brewers' quest for pitching could lead to renewed talks with the Braves, who in the past have targeted Brewers right fielder Corey Hart. The Braves would need to clear their own right fielder, Jeff Francoeur, before acquiring Hart, and no team is hot after Francoeur.
The problem for the Brewers in trading Hart is their lack of a suitable replacement. Still, the Braves are deep in pitching — and could get even deeper if right-hander Tim Hudson returns from Tommy John surgery in mid-August.
Like Francoeur, Hart is in his first year of arbitration and signed to a similar contract. Surely the Royals would take him if we just sort of gave him away.
The Braves apparently inquired on Hart back in early December at the Winter Meetings, though there is some debate as to whether they did or not. Hart is a somewhat similar player to Francoeur, though he may be realizing more of his potential at this point than our current right fielder. Here is a comparison of their stats:
He certainly offers more in the extra base hit department, but with the need for pitching on some other teams, I would think we could get more for a starting pitcher if we choose to trade one.
We'll keep an eye on these rumors as they come out, and I believe we'll see more and more the closer Tim Hudson is to returning. His successful return allows the Braves to make a big move.
0 recs | 281 comments
Wow, if we got Corey Hart we would be alot better off than we are now.
He’s more consistent than Frenchy, anyway.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
Is this your form of sarcasm?
Jay212033 - June 24, 2009
I hope so
Hart isn’t that good and isn’t the answer.
Zeus12888 - June 24, 2009
is it because he hates baseball?
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
Hart isn't that good?
Do you follow baseball?
Sorry about the sarcasm, but Hart is very good.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
Aside from Frenchy's cannon.........Hart is superior.
I could see him really getting on a roll with a team like Atlanta.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
This
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
Zeus usually knows what's up.......
but trust me on this one. Acquiring Hart would be like a shot in the arm.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
Thats cool
I sometimes get a little over-sarcastic. Some people take it for me being mean-spirited, but we’re all on the same side here.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
………….most of us. I think a few people are here just to try and dampen our spirits. I don’t even have to name names. But nobody takes those “people” very seriously.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
I appreciate the vote of confidence chief.
Granted, I dont see how he can be worse than Frenchy, I just dont see him as the answer to all our problems.
Agree to disagree, I suppose
Zeus12888 - June 24, 2009
I just don't understand the logic of a lot of fans on here
It seems like every time a name gets brought up, it boils down to someone saying, if we don’t get a really good player, then it’s not enough of an upgrade over Francoeur to matter. There is a middle ground between god awful and all-star.
was385 - June 24, 2009
There has to be a midde ground
Braves can’t afford a star (budget or prospect wise)…
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
I completely agree
and we have a very strong 1-5 as well as our fantastic pitching staff, so all we really need is someone to not suck in the back of the order.
was385 - June 24, 2009
THIS
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
THIS
bbxxj - June 24, 2009
agreed.
Smoltz's Beard - June 24, 2009
I agree too. I figure whoever we get is going to have blemishes. So anything would be an improvement.
dunnytwogloves - June 24, 2009
I'm OK with standing pat
We aren’t scoring a ton of runs, but our pitching has been lights out.
Corey Hart may be the type of player we can afford. I don’t think you lose any defense putting him out there. He and Francoeur are in the same ball park statistically though Hart possesses the one thing Francoeur doesn’t….consistency.
kalesi - June 24, 2009
I agree
but, if we have an opportunity to basically swap FYF for Hart, count me on board.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
Doubtful
I’m with you, but I doubt they would make a straight swap because that does not help their team. Maybe we could get the deal done with Jo-Jo and Failcouer, but I think they are probably looking for more than that. I think we see if we can pick up a few games on the Phils and Mets over the next two weeks and make a move after the break. Any news on when Infante will return?
gutisking - June 24, 2009
Just made a fanshot about it...
He’s just about to start treatment (out of the cast?), and they had no ETA other than “after the AS break.”
MichaelProcton - June 24, 2009
Sorry
I wasn’t talking about trading FYF straight up for Hart. I was talking more about trading FYF to someone for relatively a good bargain (KC?) and then turning around and getting Hart.
Maybe making it a 3-team deal would be the easiest way.
But, I digress into rosterbation at this point…
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
Bah
+
=
Logic fail.
fphjr01 - June 24, 2009
Huh?
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
I wouldn’t worry too much about it. He’s a “glass half empty” kind of fan.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
oh boy
i can already see him trying to start a flame war with you like he did with me yesterday…apparently, i am a jerk because I post here everyday and I point out when people are wrong and question why they think what they do…
It might be best to just ignore him…maybe he will go away.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
PS
it takes two to tango in a “flame war”. Blame me if you like, but you’re the one who butted in with comments, and then admitted later you had no idea what you were talking about.
fphjr01 - June 24, 2009
whatever helps you feel like a winner.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
returning after the trade deadline
to do whatever doesn’t allow the team to make a big move, unless you plan on counting your chickens before they hatch, which everyone is doing right now with Hudson — i.e. he’s going to come back, pitch 9 innings a game, and strike out 27 every time (ok I exaggerate).
Alls I’m sayin’ with Tim is, let’s see the man pitch (and start?) before we start making “big moves” assuming he’s gonna be the same or better. Call Pete Moylan or Mike Gonzalez to see how that worked out right after they came back.
fphjr01 - June 24, 2009
exactly
I know pitchers make it back now at the 12 month mark post TJ, but it’s becoming really obvious they don’t return to pre-surgery form until 18 months post TJ (see Moylan, Gonzalez)
ghost of tom thobe - June 24, 2009
I’d be down with some Hart action, he’s MUCH better than FYF.
Smoltz's Beard - June 24, 2009
Hart isn’t much better than French, and I agree that we could get more for our great pitching depth, even if what we do is stick one of our starters in the bullpen. Does anyone think Hudson would mind being our closer?
SunDolphin - June 24, 2009
Explain how FYF is even in the same neighborhood as Hart.
Smoltz's Beard - June 24, 2009
Looking at the stats, I only see a few more extra base hits, and I don’t think that’s enough of a difference to ship off a starting pitcher who could help us more by going to the bullpen. It’s not like Corey Hart is the greatest right feilder in the game.
I guess I’m not as eager to oust French as a lot of other fans are, and to me, if Jeff can cut the atittude and reach his potential Hart wouldn’t have anything on him. That’s not saying I wouldn’t love to trade him and a few other players for a great outfielder, but the player coming in must really be great. A straight up trade, French for Hart, would even be good, but I wouldn’t give up anything that we can actually use, and lose more than gain.
SunDolphin - June 24, 2009
A few XBH? There’s alot more there that you’re missing if that’s all you see.
Smoltz's Beard - June 24, 2009
true that
double the amount of walks. I’ll take those extra SOs for those walks man…..
traphicg - June 24, 2009
If getting Hart means unloading Frenchy and Acosta in a trade, I say do it.
Hart is a key player.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
The would want a major league starter...
Not a crappy one…
bwellnjonesco - June 24, 2009
I meant starting pitcher...
bwellnjonesco - June 24, 2009
Do any of you realize how under-rated Corey Hart is?
Obviously some of you do, but some seem to not realize how good Hart is.
He has been a 20-20 guy the past 2 years. He is only 27. He may or may not be as naturally gifted as Frenchy, but in terms of how they have developed Hart is way ahead of the game.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
yes
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
I Read your posts
You seem to get it, but I keep reading others say “Hart isn’t much better than Frenchy”. Right now, he is exponentially better.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
Some fans are idiots. What are you gonna do? lol 8 )))
Hart has always reminded me of a “mini-Mac.” Hart is much, much better than Frenchy.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
I like the mini mac comparison
They are similar players. Hart is 1 step away from being a big star.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
I think I’d want to see another month of Hanson and Kawakami before I’m ready to gamble on trading Vasquez for Hart and hoping Hudson can fill the void. Starting pitching is the Braves’ main strength and I’d be reluctant to trade it away in pursuit of a bat. I’d do Medlen and Francoeur for Hart though, but I doubt that’s what Milwaukee is looking for.
redwards95 - June 24, 2009
If we trade JV
we’d better get a hell of a lot more than Hart right now.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
this
Smoltz's Beard - June 24, 2009
We shouldn't trade him at all.
If we had a 6 man rotation, including Hudson (who will be fine), we could be unstoppable.
And IF we can unload Frenchy, and come away with Hart somehow…………….yeah.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
Exactly
I don’t want to trade JV at all…but I have had that discussion ad nauseum, so yeah…FYF flipped for Hart = good things.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
But the Brewers aren't interested in trading their crap for even worse crap.
That’s simply illogical to think they’d even consider that trade.
And honestly even if we did trade for Hart I’d want to DFA him in the winter. No reason to pay him north of $5 MM with Schafer and Heyward just around the corner.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
Not a straight up trade. I agree, that would be stupid. Word is that KC wants FYF. We give them FYF in exchange for a sack of castrations and in turn, give something else up for Hart.
IMO, this is a really viable solution to our OF/RF problem. Hart + McLouth > Schafer + FYF
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
Your logic baffles me
You DFA Hart because you have Schafer trying to RE-PROVE himself, and you expect someone in A ball to contribute in the Majors next year? Really?
Even then why not have an OF of McLouth, Schafer, Hart.
drumzalicious - June 24, 2009
Because pitchers aren't creatures of habit or anything...
MichaelProcton - June 24, 2009
I'm pretty sure they would be down.....
Kawakami with an extra day’s rest……………..fuggedaboutit.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
I gotta say that I think the whole 6-starter idea wouldn’t work. Not in the NL, not with BC calling the shots, and anyways why would we want to take starts away from Vaz, Lowe and JJ to accomodate for Kawakami and Hudson.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
That.
MichaelProcton - June 24, 2009
Screw Hart.
That’s like trading for the old Francoeur. Hart’s just not that good, and neither would we be with him.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
lmao
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
Well anyone is an upgrade over FYF
Heyward is the next crime dog - June 24, 2009
what does Hart’s contract look like?
scottsharp76 - June 24, 2009
Arbitration eligible until 2012. Rotoworld works, for future reference.
Smoltz's Beard - June 24, 2009
Best and most consistent place for contract info on the web.
MichaelProcton - June 24, 2009
I personally like COT.
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/milwaukee-brewers.html
But both do the job.
soup du jour - June 24, 2009
Cot's is good
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
Yes...
I meant for all sports, but that does seem to be more detailed for baseball. I’m all about one-stop shopping.
MichaelProcton - June 24, 2009
no trade
I dont like the idea of making a minor upgrade in RF at the expense of part of a pretty dominant pitching staff.
I can hear the, “Here’s the Frenchy apologist again” comments, but look at the stat comparison. They are pretty similar other than OBP and Slugging.
CornerThug - June 24, 2009
Are you looking at career or this year
Because career wise, Hart is MUCH better.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
Other than OBP and SLG?
What else is there to look at?
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
his OBP and SLG are so much better than FYF’s that you cannot possible consider him a “minor” upgrade.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
LOL…other than OBP and Slugging, the two most important things a hitter can do, they’re very similar!
And as stated below, if you take the time to look at their careers numbers it’s not even close.
Smoltz's Beard - June 24, 2009
Yeah, but is he someone who is going to lead this bunch of losers to the post?
Probably not.
He’s a below average bat for his position who is about to start making too much money in arbitration. He’s at $3.25 MM this year, and I’d expect him to make > $5 MM next year. There’s a reason the Brewers want him gone, because he’s not worth that kind of money.
I’d hate to see this team give up a valuable young, cheap arm like a Medlen for someone like him, because it would just be a mistake. Especially if Schafer can get healthy.
A healthy Jordan Schafer should solve the Failcoeur problem, anyways. And most certainly should by next season.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
Ugh reply button fail.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
He doesnt have to be
Chipper and Mac and our SPs are the leaders…we just need someone who can adequately follow right now.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
This
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
That may be, but this team needs a lot more than a Francoeur to Hart upgrade to become a contender. Jeff’s not the only huge hole in the lineup, and Hart is still a below average bat no matter how big of an upgrade he is over Jeff.
I just think we’ll have better internal options for RF very soon, so why bring in someone who’s expensive? Unless we’re bringing in a world-beater to drag us into the post it’s not worth it.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
BELOW AVERAGE BAT????!!!!
Career .803 OPS. Nuf Said.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
Which is tilted by one big year… He’s regressed since ‘07, much like the man he’d be replacing.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
Give me a regressed Hart over a regressed FYF anyday…
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
Agreed.
But we’re not trading Francoeur straight up for Hart, we’ve already agreed on this.
The Brewers would want something they can use.
Would you give up Medlen for Hart? That’s a more appropriate question.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
Yes
assuming we keep JV for next year.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
JV is under contract next year isn't he?
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
yes
I am talking about trading him either during the season or in the offseason as some have speculated we are going to do
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
See I’d rather see us move Vaz, because that frees up some money for next winter.
Plus his value is sky high. JV could score us a big-time prospect bat, or just a really good hitter period.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
I'd rather
not pick up Huddy’s option and keep JV. JV is one of the top 5 pitchers in the game this year.
I am amazed at how quickly people want to get rid of what makes us even half-way decent right now. We targeted JV in the offseason. We wanted him. We gave up big-time prospects to get him. If we treat him as trade-bait now, I will have some serious contention with the FO.
JV will be our Ace if we keep him.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
I won’t.
Not if we can get more out of him than what we gave up. Which I think we can do.
Buy low, sell high. That’s how winners are made.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
winners are also made by having good SP – and JV is our best.
Besides, we didn’t really “buy low” on JV. Flowers may be the next Mauer.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
Mauer is a horrible comp just because of the defense.
I agree that we gave up a lot for Vaz… But I know that we could get a lot and even more for him if we moved him right now.
Flowers is going to be a full-time DH and take Thome’s job. And I think he’ll do it rather seamlessly and be in the heart of the ChiSox order for most of the next decade.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
Agreed
I was talking purely about offense. I think we all know that Flowers isn’t going to be anything special behind the plate.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
I think you should look at it as trade your guys at peak value for guys who aren't at theirs...
Flowers was likely not going to be any hotter of a prospect after his ridiculous AFL season. Vazquez wasn’t exactly lighting the world on fire last year, either.
MichaelProcton - June 24, 2009
very true
yet at the same time, it isnt like Vasquez was John Garland. I think Ozzie completely ruined JV. Vasquez is one of the most electric pitchers in the game, and it was obvious that he needed to be somewhere different. Whether that was just a different team, or a different league I don’t know, but I do know this: He is our best pitcher right now.
I do not want to take away from what we do best (pitch) by trading away the best guy at doing what we do best…unless he lands us Pujols. Then, I’d be ok with it.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
But the problem with that is that "what we do best" hasn't gotten us where we need to be.
MichaelProcton - June 24, 2009
it could
if given the proper support (ie. anyone other than FYF)
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
HE HAD A 20-20 SEASON LAST YEAR
Wrong again. No regression, just a slow start.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
Wrong.
He tanked in the second half last year.
He had a .659 OPS after the break.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
Still a 20-20 season
He is on pace for a 20-15 season again this year.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
FYF is on pace for…DFA or non-tendered.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
This
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
Counting stats are pretty much useless unless you also present the opportunity. He had over 650 PA so the HR total isn’t really impressive, though he does have pop it’s mostly wrapped up in his doubles.
He had a 96 OPS+ last year. That’s pretty awful for a corner outfielder.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
And Frenchy's was...
60 something OPS+?
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
72…
This isn’t argument for Jeff, it’s an argument against Hart. One doesn’t equal the other, because we’re not going to be trading Jeff straight up for Hart. If it were as easy as that, Jeff would be gone already.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
Yes
but we are talking about improving an OF that sucks, so the comparison is relevant.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
I just think Heyward-McLouth-Schafer-Diaz can form a productive OF as soon as next year. And I don’t want a tweener like Hart blocking the best prospect bat in the game.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
Heyward
is still in A ball. I don’t think you can count on him next year at all. Diaz is a great 4th OF to have. By the time Heyward is ready to come up, Hart can either be moved or left for the FA market….
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
I do.
He’s just that special.
He won’t open the season with the club, but I definitely think he’ll make a positive impact next year.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
You’re crazy if you think Heyward sniffs anything more than a September callup in 2010.
cbwilk - June 24, 2009
Oh, and
Thats right, the 60 something OPS + is this year last I checked.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
Also,
counting stats like RBI’s are useless. HR’s and Steals you do yourself by getting yourself on base and hitting good pitches. Not all counting stats are useless…
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
Also
that was mostly the result of a horrendous september. He is a bit streaky…
But yet again, still much much better than FYF.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
I still believe in KJ. He is the only other “weak” spot in the lineup right now. I think his BABIP indicates that he is running into some hard luck, but I am not sure if his LD% or his FB% support this argument.
We do have internal options that will be ready soon – but not sooner than 2010. By then Anderson will need to be replaced, and the next year, McLouth will be. Hart may be only a rental or we could go to arb and bring him back, but your assumption of $5M is a little high I think – especially given the landscape of the baseball market at this time.
And even if he were to get $5M, I don’t really consider that expensive at all when you consider that we are paying FUGA $2.5-ish this season.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
Ummm… Garret Anderson still blows.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
ummm….not lately. He has made a huge difference in our lineup in the past couple of weeks.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
Until he gets the OBP over .330 and the SLG over .400 I reserve the right to bitch.
Because he’s certainly not helping us in the field either.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
well, he played injured for the first month of the season, so I think that he has made vast improvements towards getting those numbers up.
He may not be a HR hitter anymore, but he can still slap the ball around.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
Agreed
though I also agree with Timmy, his defense is terrible.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
and i agree about his D.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
wow.
your just off on everything.
GA Sucks and Hart Sucks.
Oh and Heyward will be in the Majors next year full time.
drumzalicious - June 24, 2009
Not to mention
a second competent bat in out otherwise blek outfield.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
harsh, anyone?
timmah!!!!!!
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
Hart would be worth 3-4 million a year (unlike Frenchy)
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
He’ll be making more than that next year.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
that’s an assumption though. He may or may not make more than that.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
He made $3.25 MM last year in arbitration. Unless he completely falls apart and can’t even match his production from last year, he should make greater than $5 MM.
Trust me, if you are wanting him to be a Brave, than you’d also want him to be getting that much in arb, otherwise it will mean he completely sucked it up. He’ll definitely be getting a decent raise regardless.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
I am thinking
it will probably be somewhere around $4M-$5M. That is a bargain for a player of his calibre.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
I struggle to get behind guys who can’t even draw 30 walks in 650+ PA. Hart is an outs machine at his worst, and an adequate RF at his best. He’s usually somewhere in between but he’s just not that good.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
He is also only 27
and pretty close to putting it all together. As I said before, he is streaky…
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
I will say
I understand your thoughts, but I disagree on the future potential of Hart.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
In arb
Players generally win, but it depends on how much he asks for.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
Reply fail
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
don'tcha hate replying to the bottom post?
I do that all the time. lol
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
Yeah, me too
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
Me three
MichaelProcton - June 24, 2009
Really?
I’d say the team and player settle at the middle as often as it even goes to arb.
MichaelProcton - June 24, 2009
Sometimes
but because of some bad contracts, arb was going to the players, at least for a while (Like the Zito contract). It meant that agents could argue that, if player x was making this much, my younger player with similar numbers should be worth that much. It may slow down now that the market has shifted.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
What's your Zito reference about?
MichaelProcton - June 24, 2009
Zito's contract was horrible
and it allowed other pitchers whose numbers were similar to reach for similar horrible contracts, and arb hearings guage teh market on those contracts. It was just an example.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
You may notice
that lots of players don’t get taken to arb for that reason:
Andruw Jones when he left the Braves was a prime example. If the Braves offer him arbitration, he could have ended up being a $18 million dollar player that season.
Bobby Abreu was in the same boat this year.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
I kind of had a feeling that if Frenchy started turning it around we would move him and bring in a guy that has similar stats.
Granted the OBP is much better in Hart but overall I wouldn’t care for the move. Jeff seems like he has been turning a corner over the past few games and I would hate to trade him just as he was getting hot. Hart isn’t the answer IMO.
Fischerking - June 24, 2009
I agree. Frenchy has been getting into some deeper pitch counts.
Hope isn’t COMPLETELY lost, but believe me, he still has alot to do, to prove that he still belongs with the Braves.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
Fixed
he still has alot to do, to prove that he still belongs
with the Braveson a major league roster.justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
this
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
hahaha. nice
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
Hell...
I’d be glad to get rid of him just so we didn’t have to hear about how he’s “turning a corner” every time he gets five hits in a two- or three-game span.
MichaelProcton - June 24, 2009
YES
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
This
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
Corey Hart really isn't that good
He had one good year (2007) and has regressed since.
Someone mentioned earlier that he is much like the old Francoeur, but really, he’s even worse than that.
2008 Corey Hart – 612 AB – 20 HR – .268 AVG – .300 OBP – ONLY 27 BB – .759 OPS
2007 Francoeur – 642 AB – 19 HR – .293 AVG – .338 OBP – 42 BB – .782 OPS
So someone tell me why, when most everyone agrees that even 2006 and 2007 versions of Francoeur sucked due to OBP and OPS being so low, would we want a player who has shown the same exact knack for low OBP, low OPS, no patience, and mediocre defense?
If a move is going to be made, my God, get someone better than Corey freakin Hart
ATLandUNC - June 24, 2009
This may be cruel, but I laugh out loud whenever I see Prince Fielder running the bases.
I think Corey Hart needs a change of scenery. And I just have a feeling that he would find success with the Braves. (more-so than Failcour)
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
Aberrations
Same thing, if you count 2007 as an abberation for Hart’s entire career so far…
Notice that he wasn’t that bad in 2008 until a HORRENDOUS month of September.
Other than that, he is pretty consistent. Including consistently above a .300 OBP. Career .803 OPS might I add…and 2 straight 20-20 seasons. All of this has been mentioned before.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
Sense
this makes too much.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
indeed
drumzalicious - June 24, 2009
Yeah...
His .323 OBP and .729 OPS are really blowing people away this year. Good thing last year was an abberation, hes raised his OPS 10 points since…
Not to mention his SLG% has actually DROPPED 13 points since last year.
When did everyone get such a boner for Corey Hart?
ATLandUNC - June 24, 2009
Also
How can you call it an aberration that he had a bad year, when hes only going into his 3rd full season? Seems to me like if you have ONE good year, and then 1 and a half mediocre ones…that makes the good year the aberration.
ATLandUNC - June 24, 2009
Going back to the Frenchy comparison
Frenchy has had 1 1/2 good seasons and 3 bad seasons. I’d take Hart, he is at least productive for 3 full seasons….
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
Please
point to Harts 3 full good seasons. I would love to see them.
ATLandUNC - June 24, 2009
“he is at least productive for 3 full seasons….”
were my exact words.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
And he hasn’t be productive for 3 full seasons.
So…that makes no sense
ATLandUNC - June 24, 2009
1/2 2006 productive
2007 productive (really productive)
2008 productive except for 1 month
1/2 2009 prodictive
3 seasons it total
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
Your excusing 2008 for one bad month is a joke.
2008 month OBP
June OBP – .292
JULY OBP – .301
AUGUST OBP – .310
Sept OBP – .192
THAT ISN’T ONE BAD MONTH.
ATLandUNC - June 24, 2009
But his season OBP
would have been over 300 until September, when it really really dropped. Not excusing the whole season, but he was still productive. You really can’t deny that.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
A .300 OBP is not fucking productive. Neither would his .310 OBP before September have been productive. Anything below .330-.340 is ugly.
ATLandUNC - June 24, 2009
It is
if you are able to score 80 runs and 80 rbis with it… he obviously did well with chances he had. its not spectacular, and I certainly would like to see those numbers up, but its a heck of a lot better than what we have.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
Is there a serious reason why you handpicked Corey Hart’s worst year and Jeff Francoeur’s best year for your comparison? It’s not like you were trying to pull out years where they were the same age, since Jeff was 23 in 2007 and Hart was 26 in 2008.
Think you just were cherry picking to prove your argument.
Bronn - June 24, 2009
Exactly what I was thinking.
Smoltz's Beard - June 24, 2009
I stated at the very beginning
Someone compared him to 2007 and 2006 Francoeur. So I chose Harts most recent full season (logical) and compared them.
ATLandUNC - June 24, 2009
But not Frenchy's
last full season?
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
God..
learn to fuckin read.
The point was comparing Hart NOW, and recently, to the old Jeff. People on here always say that the old Jeff still stucked, even when his counting stats were good. And if people hated Jeff then, they would hate Hart now. He is no better than 2006 and 2007 Jeff Francoeur.
ATLandUNC - June 24, 2009
Didn't hate FYF then
I actually thought he was very promising. But he never put it together. 5 seasons in the bigs. 1 above average. Hart, 3 or so full seasons. all about average or above average. Frenchy has really really really regressed. Hart may have regressed a little. Both are young. I like Hart’s potential more.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
Even the 2007 Jeffy would be a huge upgrade over the current one.
Right now Hart is having a terrible year, struggling mightily. His OPS+ is still 102…that’s above average.
Jeff’s OPS+ is 64. He’s barely better than your average pitcher.
Bronn - June 24, 2009
He isn't off to the best start this year
but he is still on pace for a 20-15 season….and he still gets on base better than another right fielder we know well….
I would expect a .380/.340/.460 year out of him with 20 HR’s and 20 steals again. Just watch…
He seems to be a guy who could benefit from a change of scenery.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
.280 avg
fail
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
But why
would we simply want someone who is better than FYF? That is setting the bar ridiculously low. We could place Zach Galifianakis in RF and he would probably outperform FYF. The point should be to get a GOOD player that will help the team this year and possibly several after…not just someone who is mediocre but slightly better than Jeff.
Good young pitching should get someone better than Hart.
ATLandUNC - June 24, 2009
What good young pitching
can be moved? The Braves need serviceable OFers out there, they don’t have many. Hart is that. He is also close being a really really good player.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
Yes. Hart would be a "fit" with us.
If some people don’t understand this, then so be it.
BUT IF FRANK WREN HAPPENS TO SKIM THRU THIS…………………..GET HER DONE, BOSS.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
What does it take to qualify as a “fit”?
Low OBP, low OPS, and meddling power?
If so, hes a perfect fit.
ATLandUNC - June 24, 2009
All numbers aside....
I’ve watched the two of them play, and Cory is a better player (in general) than Frenchy. In all areas, minus the cannon from right field.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
And with our pitching AND offense starting to click right now.....
We could use a guy like Hart more than a guy like Frenchy. It would only lead to more Wins.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
ughh
But EVERYONE is better than Jeff. How does that even qualify as an argument for Hart? All I’m saying is that there has to be someone better than Hart that could be acquired for the Braves pitching.
ATLandUNC - June 24, 2009
depends
on what is traded. If it is Javier Vazquez, of course. Nobody would argue that. But as OFers go, Hart is a decent one with upside, and his “regression” isn’t off the cliff like FYF’s. Both could turn it around, Hart is closer to doing so than FYF. Who are you talking about trading?
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
Hart is posting numbers that are above league average. He’s better than many of the options that are out there.
Bronn - June 24, 2009
I love this argument…
Numbers don’t matter, because I’ve seen this guy play before.
Apparently seeing a handful of games a guy has participated in is better evidence than multiple years of hard data.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
All this is speculation anyway...........
Whatever happens, happens. And after Wren got McLouth, I can say that he has our best interests and will make a good deal, if there is one to be made.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
this
nobody is saying sell teh farm for the guy, but if a good deal can be made, why not?
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
I just don’t think Hart really fits into our long-term plans. And I don’t have any faith in this team to win this year, barring a major offensive addition that isn’t going to happen.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
Why
Mets are a stack of dead bodies, Phillies are on the ropes. Only 4 games back and lacking any offense…
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
Garbage at 1B, garbage at 2B, garbage in both OF corners…
We’re getting .683 OPS production out of first base and no one seems concerned about that. It’s hard to win with that much lack of production at first.
We’re fielding 4 winners, but we’re also fielding four major losers. We’re so .500 it’s not even funny.
And that’s before we’re reminded that our two best hitters won’t be in the lineup every night.. And that’s just a reality.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
garbage at 1b? really?
Garbage in LF? really?
and when our 2nd best hitter is not in our lineup, our 3rd best hitter is, so there isnt too much of a drop off there.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
If .683 OPS out of the easiest defensive position in the field isn’t garbage than I don’t know what is…
And Ross isn’t a better hitter than McLouth or Escobar… Not in this life anyways.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
Kotchman may not have the highest OBP
but the guy is def clutch. he just came back from injury and he was starting to heat up before then so i have no doubt that his numbers will start to climb.
Our LF platoon is def not Garbage with how GA has heated up.
drumzalicious - June 24, 2009
well, i must be in a different life than you
Ross – 295 .402 .551 .953
Heap – 328 .416 .534 .950
Chip – .295 .410 .488 .898
Infante – 349 .389 .430 .820
Esco – 296 .353 .437 .790
Nate – 267 .329 .453 .783
But stats be damned, you are right.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
Small sample size warning.
If Ross was that good do you think he’d be on the bench anywhere?
The guy has a .315 OBP for his career. He’s an adequate backup with lots of pop, and I think he’s been money well spent.
But to suggest he’s a better hitter than Nate McLouth or Yunel Escobar because of 93 good PAs is a bit ridiculous.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
He wasn't on the bench in Cincy
and so far this year, he is a much better hitter than anyone on this team that isnt named chipper or mccann
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
No GM deserving of a job would make the argument that Ross is a better hitter than any of our starters not named Francoeur.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
agree to disagree.
Ross can rake and has been all season. Granted, he may end up like Norton and just have one flukey year, but as of right now, he is one of the best hitters on the team.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
yeah, we all got that
I think you’re wrong though, holmes.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
Basically we’re all so tired of watching Jeff suck that some are ready to make a poorly thought out trade just to get anyone else in RF. I’d highly suggest that we look internally, especially with the direction that this season is headed. Being a buyer at the deadline would not be advantageous for us.
Some food for thought…
Matt Diaz ’09: .274/.345/.427 105 OPS+
Corey Hart ’09: .259/.323/.446 102 OPS+
Now I’m not saying Diaz is better, but he’s pretty damn close.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
Diaz
Defense would be ugly in right. Diaz also gets the advantage of a platoon, he isn’t really all that great against righties (though not terrible either). his OPS+ would drop if he saw more of them.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
I love Diaz’s defense in LF… He used to suck but he’s improved a lot, and his arm is respectable. I don’t think he’d hurt us any more than Jeff has out there.
And his platoon splits are certainly an issue, but he’s still getting on-base enough to fill a spot at the bottom of the lineup vs righties.
I think it beats us trading away another good young arm. Bringing in Hart would only be an upgrade for this year, and part of next until Heyward is ready to go.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
It has improved
but McClouth is only decent in Center, and Frenchy’s range is decent with his cannon arm. Hart would increase the range slightly allowing McClouth to cheat left a bit, but he won’t have the cannon arm. It would probably even out.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
Harts UZR/150 is -1.9
Jeffs UZR/150 is -3.1
AKA, they both suck in the field this year so far.
ATLandUNC - June 24, 2009
I’d love to just plug Diaz into right field, but if it hasn’t happened yet, it’s not going to happen. It’s going to take sending Francoeur out of Atlanta to get him out of the line-up.
Bronn - June 24, 2009
Agreed. Bobby will keep playing Jeff everyday, because Bobby is more interested in that than winning… It’s just unfortunate that the better player gets benched.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
Because it would IMPROVE THE TEAM
MichaelProcton - June 24, 2009
Barely
ATLandUNC - June 24, 2009
You don't need much to make up four games over the course of 90.
MichaelProcton - June 24, 2009
more than barely
he is a major upgrade over FYF.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
OBP is great, but it doesn’t always tell the whole story. It’s important to look at stats like BB%, K%, BB/K, ISO, etc.
FYF
2005: 4.1 BB%, 22.6 K%, 0.19 BB/K, .884 OPS, .249 ISO, .341 BABIP
2006: 3.4 BB%, 20.3 K%, 0.17 BB/K, .742 OPS, .189 ISO, .286 BABIP
2007: 6.1 BB%, 20.1 K%, 0.33 BB/K, .782 OPS, .151 ISO, .342 BABIP
2008: 6.1 BB%, 18.5 K%, 0.35 BB/K, .653 OPS, .120 ISO, .277 BABIP
2009: 4.5 BB%, 14.5 K%, 0.32 BB/K, .617 OPS, .090 ISO, .274 BABIP
Hart
2005: 9.5 BB%, 19.3 K%, 0.55 BB/K, .683 OPS, .175 ISO, .205 BABIP
2006: 6.7 BB%, 24.5 K%, 0.29 BB/K, .796 OPS, .186 ISO, .341 BABIP
2007: 6.7 BB%, 19.6 K%, 0.36 BB/K, .892 OPS, .244 ISO, .327 BABIP
2008: 4.2 BB%, 17.8 K%, 0.25 BB/K, .759 OPS, .191 ISO, .298 BABIP
2009: 8.7 BB%, 25.1 K%, 0.38 BB/K, .769 OPS, .187 ISO, .313 BABIP
Do me a favor and look at that. Compare. Contrast. Whatever. There are several issues that jump out at me, and you should be able to see them as well.
Smoltz's Beard - June 24, 2009
What exactly is ISO?
And whats a good number for BABIP
drumzalicious - June 24, 2009
A good BABIP
Average is around .300. Most players regress to the mean by the end of the season.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
And thats just measuring how many balls they hit are put into play right?
drumzalicious - June 24, 2009
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BABIP
Smoltz's Beard - June 24, 2009
ISO is SLG – AVG. It measures the players ability to hit extra base hits. Slugging does this to a large degree, but SLG also takes into account total bases (i.e. singles), so subtracting out avg gives you a raw power number.
soup du jour - June 24, 2009
what essentially is a good ISO then?
drumzalicious - June 24, 2009
League average ISO is .155. The league leader is (surprise!) Pujols with a whopping .385, almost .040 points higher than Ibanez and Ben Zobrist (wtf). Really bad ISOs are in the .06 – .09 range, with Frenchy, Magglio, David Eckstein, etc.
soup du jour - June 24, 2009
thanks for the info
drumzalicious - June 24, 2009
get those facts outta here
this is an irrational discussion that has no room for logic and reason!
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
I'm marginally in favor of picking up Hart
Here’s a good primer article on Corey Hart over at fangraphs:
http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/corey-harts-hacking-ways
For the tl;dr variety of you guys, it basically says that in ’08 Hart struggled because his walk rate dropped precipitously (from a bad 6.7% to a horrid 4.2%) in 612 ABs. He also started swinging a lot more at pitches seen: 45.1% in 2006, 50.3% in 2007, and 54.7% in 2008. His O-swing (swings at outside the strike zone pitches) went up all three years from 22.3% to 25.7% to 31.7%, while his O-contact went down. All of this combined into a disappointing .268/.300/.459 line from last year which is what people are hesitant about.
That article was written at the beginning of this year. In comparison, here’s this years percentages in 251 AB:
BB%: 8.7%
BB/K%: .37%
.259/.323/.446
O-swing: 24.4%
O-contact: 50.8%
At first blush, it seems he’s getting his hacking under control. His O-swing rates are right about league average. This probably goes hand in hand with his almost doubled walk rate to an acceptable value. His O-contact is still abysmal (league average is 62.5%), so its good he stopped swinging at pitches outside the K-zone. His slash stats aren’t that impressive, and its not like he’s getting unlucky: .313 BABIP. His ISO right now is .187, a little lower than his career average at .205, and a lot lower than his peak at .240 in ’06. This worries me, as he should be getting better on the power end, not worse.
So what to make of all this? While Hart is a decent player who I think might do better with us, I hesitate to think of the price. If they want pitching, I don’t know if I would want to trade for a contending team’s starting OF – they’ll want pieces that can help them now to push for a playoff spot. I think that would mean at least Medlen and Reyes.
But there’s this other guy rotting on the Nationals team named Josh Willingham, who sports these numbers (in 126 AB):
BB%: 14.9%
BB/K%: .71
.246/.379/.516
O-swing: 18.0%
O-contact: 56.3%
One thing to note as well is that he has a TERRIBLE .256 BABIP, and has a wOBA of .385. He’s a righty, has an increasing ISO from .198 (‘07) to .211 (’08) to .270 (’09). His defense is pretty average as well.
I realize that this is a decently small sample size in 126 at bats, and I don’t think his power numbers will be sustainable (especially an ISO of .270), but I DO think that he’ll get on base more as BABIP regresses to the norm. AND I think he’ll cost much less than trying to get Hart from the Brewers.
tl;dr: Don’t worry about Hart, get Willingham at a cheaper price.
soup du jour - June 24, 2009
interesting tid bit on willingham
drumzalicious - June 24, 2009
I wouldnt mind getting Hart
But not only him for Vazquez. If we are parting with Vazquez it needs to be even.
As in someone is getting a dynamite pitcher with instant impact we need someone dynamite as well.
What would go guys think of Hart batting 2nd between McLouth and Chipper. Then drop Esco to 6
drumzalicious - June 24, 2009
I understand Atland's and Timmy's arguments
AtlandUNC seems pissed off at me, but I really do understand.
But, our RF is a black hole. Nobody is saying “deal hanson for Hart” or something ridiculous like that. I and others like his potential, and thats really all tehre is to it. If a good deal can be made, would you be pissed taht the Braves pick him up?
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
Who would you give up for Hart?
What would be a reasonable package for him in your opinion?
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
I'm not sure
If Morton were available, that would be a good solid move, but obviously he now plays for the Pirates….maybe a AA position player that we couldn’t use along with Morton to sweeten the deal.
Jo Jo lost all of his value… Medlen comes to mind… not sure if he is too much, but then I have a feeling that the Brewers would value him less than we Braves fans do.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
as i said if we trade Javy it better be someone Dynamite we are getting in return.
Hart is good. Better than Frenchy but not dynamite. So it would have to take a good prospect attached to balance out the deal.
I would love to some how get Gamel but i doubt it happens.
What if we constructed a deal of
Javy + Piece/Pieces
for
Hart AND JJ Hardy.
Plug JJ Hardy in at 2B and hope he gets better
drumzalicious - June 24, 2009
I dont want Hardy
I’d rather just deal FYF to KC, then deal Medlen or someone like that to Mil (if that would be enough.)
No starters on our end get traded (except FYF)
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
i understand what your saying. i was speaking about if they felt like they could deal Vazquez
drumzalicious - June 24, 2009
We need to hold onto Medlen. Otherwise our bullpen is going to be a mess next year.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
Medlen
isn’t a BP guy. He is a SP and other teams know that. I wouldn’t be shocked if teams are calling and asking about him already.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
If he’s not a BP guy then we need to get his ass back to Gwinnett so he can start.
This whole letting him rot and pitch like once a week thing is ridiculous…
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
I couldn't agree more.
I have no idea why we are wasting him…maybe just to hold the spot down until Campillo comes back.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
I wish they’d just stick Bueno there. He’s on the 40-man and can pitch a bunch of innings if need be.
Medlen getting jerked around isn’t helping him though, and the fact is because he was a position player as an amateur, and a reliever in the minors he doesn’t have many innings under his belt.
Getting him opportunities to pitch is only going to make him get better.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
again
I am right there with you.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
Lol. I needed to get on that soap box for a minute.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
Medlen is absolutely a bullpen guy. His stuff doesn’t translate into a starter at the major league level.
cbwilk - June 24, 2009
Granted
I only saw him in his few starts with the MLB club this year, but he looked pretty solid to me. He is at least better than what other clubs are throwing out in their 4th and 5th spots, right?
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
Theoretically. I don’t think he could hold up over a whole season as a starter, physically, or stuff wise.
cbwilk - June 25, 2009
This thread is making me dizzy, and timmy and fpjrtyh need to team up.
They are both pissed off at the Braves equally.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
I’m hardly pissed at this team, but I can tell a contender from a pretender… And this team is the latter…
Nothing wrong with that, I think we’ll be in great shape for next year and the years ahead… But I’m not going to support mortgaging that in hopes we can somehow get Bobby back to the postseason.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
We've been screwed out of a couple of games due to "anti-Braves calls" from umps
and our record really should be over .500. I know that none of this really “matters,” I’m just saying that you aren’t giving us enough credit. There isn’t ONE team in baseball right now that I would dread playing.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
this
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
Who knows? Maybe we have a run in us… I doubt we do, because this team can’t seem to string together more than 3-4 wins at a time, and hasn’t been able to for awhile now…
And if I’ve learned one thing in my life, it’s that you can never blame the umps for a lose. They may have blown it in a couple of instances, but there’s always going to be another instance where you have an opportunity to win as well. Good teams win in spite of bad calls, average teams let that stuff beat them.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
I watch alot of games.....and umps have missed calls with us that they just don't miss with other teams.
I’m with Chipper on that one, all day long.
But you’re right, we need to step it up so those blown calls don’t sink us.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
The only thing this team needs is for the offense to be consistent and its not just one persons fault. it seems like everyone slumps at the same time. or everyone is hot. the last two games were good though. Mac was 0-4 against the cubs but everyone else picked up his slack. then last night Mac was dominating and there were some others who werent as hot but it played a balancing act.
if we could do that more often we would have been above and beyond a .500 team by now
drumzalicious - June 24, 2009
What the Braves need to truly be contenders is a big bat. Not 20 HR player with low OBP and OPS killing rallies and stranding runners. Not to mention Hart’s defense isn’t all that good and hes played long enough that he should have reached his max potential by now.
The Braves need someone better than Hart to reach the postseason.
ATLandUNC - June 24, 2009
or just an adequate bat
like Hardy. That would make a world of difference.
We do not NEED a $18M addition. Just an upgrade over what we have currently.
If we are a .500 team right now, any sort of upgrade should translate into a >.500, right?
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
I think this is another place we disagree
The Braves don’t need (and can’t afford) a really big bat (Holliday, etc.). Everything is fine up until after McCann, then things get ugly. A guy like Hart slots into the 5/6 spot nicely so that the lineup always threatens.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
i would actually consider hart in the #2 hole in front of chipper. hopefully he will get more pitches to hit. then put esco 6th
drumzalicious - June 24, 2009
notably
Hart has a .374 OBP in the 2 spot this year.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
that solves it!
lol
seriously tho
Mclouth
Hart
Chip
Mac
GA
Esco
Kotch
KJ
we look good all the way down to KJ
drumzalicious - June 24, 2009
Any team
that has a SP staff like ours is no pretender. No matter how bad our offense is, our SP will make us able to win any game.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
Consider
15 – 31 record scoring 4 runs or less
6 – 29 record scoring 3 runs or less
and you might change your mind about “how bad our offense is…”
fphjr01 - June 24, 2009
so we have a losing record when we score very few runs?
I fail to see your point here.
Our SP is giving up very few runs, meaning that we are in just about every single game and have a chance to win each game. We are just falling 1 or 2 runs short most of the time. When we replace the Black Hole in RF with an adequate player, we make up those 1-2 runs and start winning the 3-2 games instead of losing them.
Like I said, we don’t need a monster bat, just an adequate one.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
it kills us though...
that our middle relief is pretty weak.
I think our record is probably right where it should be, especially just looking at our runs scored vs. runs allowed. We’ve allowed more than we scored so theoretically, we should be below .500.
Now the Marlins are always a team hard to figure out. They’ve allowed 31 more runs than they’ve scored, and they are at .500.
dunnytwogloves - June 24, 2009
they did that last year too
i just kept waiting for them to fall off and it never happened.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
its cause
the rest of the NL east is flawed. Seriously flawed. It is a war of attrition, and the Braves are very much in it. A bat like Hart’s (for teh right price) could make a huge difference.
Andy Braves Fan - June 24, 2009
YES
and come playoff time, if we can just win out the division, we will have one of the best chances to win simply because of our SP.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
My point was
we’ve played 68 games to date, and 35 of those games net the Braves 3 runs or fewer (i.e. bad offense). Going 1-5 out of 6 in those games isn’t getting the job done.
Your comment was
which isn’t consistent with the facts presented above.
fphjr01 - June 24, 2009
except it does
because as bad as our offense was, our pitching kept us in those games. How many of those games were decided by 2 or less runs? I would wager that the majority were.
Our SP is giving us every opportunity to win. Anytime a team can say that, they are contenders. The fact that we are only 4 games out with our atrocious (at times), inconsistent (at best) offense supports this.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
I have
4 posts (5 now) in this thread (out of 180+) and all the sudden I’m making you dizzy?
And while I freely admit I tend towards the sarcastic / snide side, no one really refuted my point that there’s a non-zero chance that Tim Hudson won’t come back immediately at 110%. But don’t let the facts get in the way of a good story.
I don’t hate the Braves either. But since we are grouping people together, by all means, you and Justin can continue to tell me and others what I mean and what I’m thinking when I post (and what I’m implying, lol), since you have a much better perspective on it than I do.
fphjr01 - June 24, 2009
don't constantly try to make yourself the spotlight, dude
I just said that you and timmy are of the same mind-set, in that you have 0 faith in the Braves right now.
The thread is “dizzying” because we don’t even know that any “potential deal” is in the works, and everyone is up in arms over whether Corey Hart is really “better” than Frenchy.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
try taking your own advice, dude
If you’re going to “call me out”, you should probably expect a reply. It’s not making myself the spotlight.
Again, you must be clairvoyant (sp?), b/c I’m not really sure about your 0 faith comment, other than you are prone to hyperbole.
fphjr01 - June 24, 2009
great......you in a flame war with someone else...............who would have thought?
You missed your true calling as a writer for the AJC, in that you seem moderately intelligent, and you kind of suck, in general.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
let's just chill with the ad hominem crap
and stick to baseball.
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
I'm with you..........
…..but anybody who says that Hanson going 3-0 is “luck,” is not only trying to push buttons (in a Braves forum), but is just dumber than a bag of hammers.
I only call out people when they deserve to be called out.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
If Hanson goes on a tear, we have a shot if we remove Jeff.
I’ll certainly concede that. There’s just so many variables that can go wrong, and we need everything to go right. Getting Hanson in, along with getting some production from 1B and 2B would be a big start though. And both KJ and Kotch have the ability to get it going.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
That's the spirit!
justincredubil02 - June 24, 2009
this dude already has more points than fpjeuetr01
He at least has a “bright side.”
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
Lets make sure our stories are straight:
My comment:
and your reply:
So, really, you are the one who made the comment re: 3-0 = lucky and not me (bag of hammers anyone?). I was referring to the supposition by the other poster that on the basis of his record he was coming along. And finally, if you think record and talent are in perfect correlation, you should talk with J Vazquez.
fphjr01 - June 24, 2009
chalk up another win for yourself dude, (sigh) you got me.
Go ahead and post again if you want the “final comment”
(bows at his feet)
You could do wonders for yourself if you weren’t such a calculating negative nancy. Have you ever heard that before? No? I don’t believe it.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
I’d say that while Hanson hasn’t pitched as well as the record suggests, we also haven’t seen his best stuff yet, and he’s getting out of jams like a vet…
And this team just seems to show up to the ballpark on the days he takes his turn, they don’t always do that the other four days. So he’s a shot in the arm if for no other reason that because these guys want to win for him.
It took THK a month or so to settle into Double-A too. Now AAA to MLB is a bigger jump than High-A to AA, but they’re both pretty big, and I’d say a month from now we’ll start to see what we really have with him.
I just think it’s going to be scary to see how well he does when his command actually comes with him and he’s throwing 96 and has his breaking stuff working.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
This thread is a goddamn mess.
Hart is a slight improvement over the right fielder, but not THE END TO ALL OF THE BRAVES PROBLEMS. He wouldn’t even be worth a win compared to Francoeur over the last 2 months of the season. I’d be all for acquiring Hart if it was for trash, like Reyes and Hernandez. But for a player who actually is good or might have a future? Fuck that.
bigjoe - June 24, 2009
This.
Lennox - June 24, 2009
Summed up my thoughts pretty well.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
thats what ive been saying
Zeus12888 - June 24, 2009
Anyone who says we shouldnt get Corey Hart is nuts.
While i agree we shouldnt give up a nice prospect for him like C. Johnson, he would still be a big upgrade over Mr. 6-4-3.
I would do Medlen, FYF and Acosta forHart in a "hart"beat. Get it?
Scott Coleman - June 24, 2009
LOL, FYF has negative trade value, you’re not getting rid of him unless you take a bad contract on in return.
Remember how everyone was all happy when we got a 25 year old A ball middle reliever for Josh Anderson? We’d be lucky to get that sort of return on FYF.
Lennox - June 24, 2009
All 3!?!?!?!?
I suggested Frenchy and Acosta earlier……but no way in hell I would throw in Meds. That really wouldn’t be fair. Acosta has good stuff.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
Like I said, FYF has no trade value, so what you’re asking is that the Brewers basically do Acosta for Hart straight up, and that’s not going to happen.
Lennox - June 24, 2009
as so many have pointed out........Frenchy's and Hart's numbers are "similar"
maybe we could get away with it
8 )))
Chief Noc-A-Homa - June 24, 2009
thats why i said medlen, francoeur and acosta.
Scott Coleman - June 24, 2009
Might as well keep Acosta and just cut Frenchy.
Lennox - June 24, 2009
Since when does CoJo have more trade value than Medlen?
I like Cody just fine, but if we’re going around talking about him like he’s some blue chip prospect we’re fooling ourselves.
timmy3 - June 24, 2009
I love Cody Johnson, but he’d definitely be a guy I’d be willing to trade while his value is high.
cbwilk - June 25, 2009
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