A couple of disappointing and revealing tweets from David O'Brien about the Braves direction post Vaz-trade (first):
[Matt Holliday is] too pricey for Braves, but there's at least a slim chance they make a run at [Jason Bay].
And second:
Scratch that Bay possibility for Braves. I was just assured that Braves are out of that pursuit.
"Assured!" Nuts! This just puts the dagger further in this already disappointing day. We've got the dough to go after Bay... well, that's only somewhat true. I've taken a realistic look at the Braves salary situation, and we've got the dough this year to go after big-money free agents, but after this year we start to get hamstrung with our salary commitments. In 2011, Yunel Escobar, Martin Prado, and Jair Jurrjens all enter their first arbitration year. That same year, our currently signed stars, Brian McCann and Nate McLouth, see big raises in their salaries. All of this with virtually no money coming off our books from any other players.
If there's one thing we're about to learn from the way in which the Braves conduct themselves throughout the rest of this off-season, it's that they are very aware of this fact, and they're not going to commit any more long term money to free agents. I believe all that we're going to get this off-season are one-year stop gap fillers until Jason Heyward and Freddie Freeman are fully ready.
This is why I expect the Braves to sign Xavier Nady before the end of the year, and maybe one other small to medium sized free agent, but we're not getting into the big names or even the second tier names since the players in both of those categories would require deals of more than a year.
It's a cold reality Braves fans, but we pretty much have our team, save for one or two more folks, none of whom will be big names.
0 recs | 372 comments
No need to worry, here is our big bat....
FreeBarryBonds - December 22, 2009
Holy hell
Unbelievable.
hoboken_wood - December 22, 2009
HEY!!
It’s a dickhead in a box!
bravos1984 - December 23, 2009
This trade
probably removes the Braves from being favorites for the WC.
vr, Xei
Xeifrank - December 22, 2009
Were we ever?
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
Yes
nick9314 - December 22, 2009
Hard to see how we were favorites before the rosters were even set, but, whatever.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
Yes, I think so.
I’d say….
NL East: Phillies (solid fave)
AL Central: Cardinals (heavy fave)
NL West: Rockies/Dodgers (toss up)
WC: Braves & Rockies/Dodgers….. Next likely Mets, Giants, DBacks
vr, Xei
Xeifrank - December 22, 2009
And just how does getting rid of a 6th starter to free up money for a 1st baseman make us a worse team than before?
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
Because he was the best of all our starters last year. Sure, he could have regressed dramatically while still a Brave, but I don’t see why. When getting rid of an extra starter, all starters are not equal, even if the ones left are still pretty good.
Sir Stealth - December 22, 2009
Agreed.
But I don’t think we are much worse with Huddy in there instead of Vaz.
Our rotation this year will be almost if not equal to the rotation last year.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
that's all fine and dandy...
to be better than last year, but the margin could’ve would’ve been wider with Vazquez. If the extra money is used to improve another position then sure that changes things a little… but until then.
Most of the improvement upon last years rotation will be just having Hanson up for a full year.
vr, Xei
Xeifrank - December 22, 2009
Most of the improvement over last year is not having Garrett Anderson and Jeffery Francoeur in the lineup every day.
justincredubil02 - December 22, 2009
yeah, that def helps...
… I was talkin starting rot.
vr, Xei
Xeifrank - December 22, 2009
Like FW said, the difference between Vaz and Huddy is not that great…in fact, Huddy may be the safer option at this point.
This coming from one of the biggest “DO NOT TRADE VAZQUEZ!” guys on this blog…
justincredubil02 - December 22, 2009
2.0 to 3.0 WAR difference
for likely 2010 output. Agree to disagree.
vr, Xei
Xeifrank - December 23, 2009
WAR is a nice tool but not the end all be all, Vazquez is a guy who consistently puts up stud peripherals but doesn’t get the results. I agree his peripherals, and in turn WAR, will likely greatly exceed Hudson’s but in terms of actual results I wouldn’t be surprised by Huddy turning in a better season of actual performance
McCann's the Man - December 23, 2009
and a hurt center fielder.
vooodooo - December 23, 2009
Yuck
I’m seriously pissed about this turn of events. If we couldn’t get anything better for Vazquez, we should have kept him. The production of Melky is available on the scrap heap at almost anytime.
El Bravos - December 22, 2009
Yeah, because Vaz would have made one hell of a 1st bagger.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
You’re right, Melky is miles ahead of Vaz over at first base. WTF were we thinking?
J-Freak - December 22, 2009
Yes, he is.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
F- the Braves
After trading JV I was dissapointed like I said in my previous blog. But then I wondered and said to myself,“In Frank we Trust”.
Now I hear that the cheap Braves are not even going to consider going after the big bat that we’ve been chasing for a year and a half? WTF!. I am
so discusted about this team right now and not even sure if I want to even watch a team that features an Xavier Nady or Dan Uggla play first base. Please. This
Team is built to play 6 games over .500. I live in NY and I am listening to the radio and there calling this a steal. “What where the Braves thinking giving up JV for Milky and not even go after Bay or Holliday”
Not looking forward for the season.
F- You Frank!!!!
AlRoBraves95 - December 22, 2009 via mobile
"What where the Braves thinking giving up JV for Milky and not even go after Bay or Holliday"
Because they don’t $200+ million to spend.
You shouldn’t let talk radio sway you too much.
get swoll yunel - December 22, 2009
AND YOUR FAMILY!!!1
justincredubil02 - December 22, 2009
A discusting turn of events, indeed.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Silver lining of that-
We won’t get stuck with Jack Cust, obviously…
J-Freak - December 23, 2009
Well played.
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
+100
Smoltz's Beard - December 23, 2009
what about Arodys Vizcaino???
I mean didn’t people say the same when we traded Edgar for a “stupid” prospect called Jurriens?
jvvenez - December 22, 2009
What’s funny about that one is that I was actually more excited about Gorkys at the time than I was about Jair. :-\
get swoll yunel - December 23, 2009
I was too. Gorkys was coming off an outstanding season and Jurrjens looked like a nice player who’d probably need some time in AAA. Nothing wrong with having an appropriate reaction at the time.
cbwilk - December 23, 2009
THIS
If we already knew we’d getting a couple cheap-o bats of the Nady/Delgado/Glaus/Byrd variety, why the hell not just stand pat with the pitching surplus, and not move them until we could get something useful? Surely there’d be a team incontention in July that would have been happy to take a starter off our hands for us that would have sent a useful piece back.
“Make one more run for Bobby” my ass. Wren has all but ensured a thrid place finish again.
J-Freak - December 22, 2009
Because we couldn't afford...
….Delgado/Glaus/Byrd without moving a pitcher?
cavebird - December 22, 2009
Hey now, that logic has no place on these boards.
Smoltz's Beard - December 23, 2009
That’s why I don’t necessarily agree with gondee’s unhappy assessment.
We now have the financial means and tradeable pieces to go acquire a longer-term asset / better bat via trade than by FA. For Wren to not go shopping for something better, before settling on Nady or the like, would not be smart at all.
fandave - December 22, 2009
Well said...
and as I said before we got a top prospect in return
jvvenez - December 22, 2009
Ouch, my soul.
!Vive la Francoeur! - December 22, 2009
THANKS FOR A GREAT CAREER BOBBY.
-FRANK WREN
someguy917 - December 22, 2009
I really don’t blame Wren. This is what happens when you are owned by a company based in Denver.
someguy917 - December 22, 2009
Particularly one that runs you as a line item in their budget.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Yea!!!
We have officially made our team worse and the Phillies and Metros are better. Here’s to another year of not making the playoffs…….***clap***clap***
Tomahawk Tide - December 22, 2009
Ahhh
The pain of rebuilding.
Sucks.
BeantownVol - December 22, 2009
The thing is....
We are not committed to rebuilding or winning. We are stuck in the perpetual neutral mode for the foreseeable future.
Tomahawk Tide - December 22, 2009
THIS
This was our year to commit to winning.
alligatorimpersonator - December 22, 2009
WE'RE STUCK IN INDIANA PACERS MODE GODDAMNIT AND I CAN'T TAKE ANOTHER ONE OF MY TEAMS SETTLE FOR MEDIOCRITY!!!
Mark Lempke - December 22, 2009
*settling
Mark Lempke - December 22, 2009
Carlos Delgado, Troy Glaus, and Xavier Nady still are out there and while none are the big name anyone around here wants, they are all productive hitters. Putting Delgado at 1B and Nady in a corner to go with a full year of McLouth would certainly make us WC favorites
McCann's the Man - December 22, 2009
So we just release Cabrera...or?
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Or use the versatility...
Cabrera can play any of the 3 OF spots, Diaz RF or LF, McLouth CF or RF, Nady LF or 1B, if Glaus 1B and perhaps 3B while Delgado would just be 1B. Either way, you’d have enough versaility there to work in guys as you’d like/matchups dictate.
Mr. Sanchez - December 23, 2009
And we keep the kids in AAA all year?
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
the kids would be cheap...
and it’s not like that’s an awful idea given the # of at bats both have above A ball. Of course, you assume one if not both of Schafer/Heyward will see time in Atlanta, but Freeman is down all year. Say it’s Glaus, if he’s healthy, he can work in at 3rd when Chipper is out for his month or two, perhaps might miss a month himself, same goes for Nady or one of the 3 OFs. Basically, it plays out similar to the starting pitching last year. May as well overstock if you can afford it, considering there is a good chance one or more get injured for a month or more, or that one or more may underperform and deserve to be dropped, and at worst you can try to find a deal if there is excess.
Mr. Sanchez - December 23, 2009
Also, considering the injury past of...
Nady, Glaus, and Delgado, it might be better to sign two if possible, in case one goes down. Glaus could also cover a possible long term injury to Chipper, or Nady possible injury to an OF.
Mr. Sanchez - December 23, 2009
No proof Glaus' shoulder can hold up at 3B at all.
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
And haven't we just learned that dealing from a "position of strength" that you can't use is a difficult thing to do?
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
if they are one year deals...
it likely reduces the difficulty, or at best reduces the problems next year. The problem wasn’t our excess starters last year, it was that they were all under long term deals once Hudson was extended. Sign Lowe and Kawakami to a one year deals, and we’re not in this mess.
Mr. Sanchez - December 23, 2009
Sign Lowe and Kawakami to one year deals...
And we’re looking for starters again this year.
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
(ignoring the fact that they wouldn't have signed at all for one-year deals)
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
that's the important fact they wouldn't have accepted 1 yr deals,...
but no, we’re not looking for starters. If Lowe and KK were agreeable to one year deals, but everything else remains the same, you still have the last year on Vasquez’s deal as he’s not a necessary trade, plus Hudson’s extension, Hanson and Jurrjens, and you’re left with a need for a 5th starter, that could easily be filled by Kris Medlen or a resigned KK. At worst, we’re looking for a 5th starter, but even that can be filled internally by Medlen, if not a resigned KK.
Mr. Sanchez - December 23, 2009
How many damn times
have I heard on this blog and many, many others this comment:
“Man, if we had a full season of Prado, LaRoche and Mclouth, we’d been in first place!”
Well, fuckers, that is what we have for 2010: almost same rotation except put Huddy in for Vaz… ain’t that much different.
Bullpen – same amount of question marks as last year, but I feel soooo much better about our depth than this time last year with Medlen, Moylan, Minor etc. etc. I’ll say this is actually an improvement over last years staff.
Outfield – improved. Mclouth > Schafer, Melky = Frenchy, Diaz > FUGA. Won’t put up the huge power numbers, but, hell, the defense will be pretty decent and we have some really good depth when compared to last year in AAA. Overall, better than last years.
Infield – Almost same setup as last year, except we now have the money to bring in Rochy and/or Delgado, Nady, Glaus, etc., all of which are better options than Crotchman in my opinion.
So, there you go. We have a chance to make the playoffs with our current team setup barring catastrophic injuries (most of which we now have some type of backup for), which is all the fuck we can ask for from Wren: an opportunity to compete.
So, if most things on the team are equal to or better than last year, WTF do you guys keep saying we are destined for failure?? I just don’t understand that. Sure, we don’t have the “big bat”, but I think we are still a very solid team that could wipe the floor with the one we ran out of Spring training last year.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
Here's my opinion why:
Javy held down the rotation in my opinion. Without him, I don’t feel great about our rotation like I used to.
Lowe could very easily struggle just like he did last year, Jurrjens has been outpitching himself, Hanson could have a sophomore slump, Huddy is returning from Tommy John, and KK struggles to go deep into games.
The only guy I felt good about was Javy, who finally lived up to his ace potential that he has always had. He eats innings and is extremely durable, and he was happy in Atlanta. And now he’s gone.
alligatorimpersonator - December 22, 2009
And
Lowe could very easily bounce back, JJ keeps doing what he has always done and pitch well, Hanson could win the Cy Young, and KK does just fine.
100% confident Vaz was going to regress. That was a career year for him.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
100% confident?
I don’t know about that. He may regress with the Yankees, but with the Braves I think he would have had another great season.
Maybe it’s just me, but I never thought Lowe was that great. His last two years in Boston he posted ERA’s of 4.47 and 5.42, then went to LA where his numbers look decent, but remember he moved from the good-hitting AL East to the light-hitting NL West in a pitcher’s park.
alligatorimpersonator - December 22, 2009
I think he would have another great season, too, but I don’t see him putting up the same numbers, just because he had a career year last year.
He won’t put up the same numbers with the Yankees. Remember this is the same guy that everyone was down on last year because he couldn’t perform under pressure. Well, he just got thrown into the pressure cooker again, and the first time around with the Yankees… he didn’t do so well.
Lowe is a better pitcher than he was for us last year.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
I used to think the same about Lowe, but when you look at the stats...
in his last 3 years with L.A., Lowe consistently posted ERA’s above 4.00 on the road away from the pitching-friendly Dodger Stadium.
Lowe may be a little better next year than he was for us this year, but I fully expect Lowe to put up a 4.00 ERA.
alligatorimpersonator - December 22, 2009
If he does, that is ok, too
His production this year was disappointing, but it wasn’t devastating.
I know ERA is not the best stat to use here, but, since you brought it up:
Who posts up a lower ERA next year? Vaz or Lowe?
I’d pick Lowe. Vaz will beat him in almost every other category, but Lowe will probably put up the less ERA.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
You can’t compare their two respective ERA’s when Javy is in hitter-friendly Yankee Stadium in the AL and Lowe is in neutral Turner Field in the NL.
And still with that big difference, I expect Javy and Lowe to post similar ERA’s. But, who will pitch more innings, have more complete games, and shutouts? Javy.
alligatorimpersonator - December 22, 2009
The comparison you have to make here
is Javy to Huddy, not Javy to Lowe.
Yeah, I’d take Javy over Lowe any day. I’m not trying to compare the two.
But you threw out ERA, so… yeah, my point was that wasn’t a good stat to use.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
Sorry, I'm just all upset today...
Frank Wren has rendered my Vazquez Braves t-shirt useless.
alligatorimpersonator - December 22, 2009
This is why I never buy shirts or jerseys attached to specific players.
bravos1984 - December 22, 2009
I still wear my Rocker T with pride.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
as you should!
:)
justincredubil02 - December 22, 2009
haha
Smoltz's Beard - December 23, 2009
Vazquez outpitched himself.
By miles and miles and miles. That’s not repeatable as a guy in his mid-30s.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Well there are a couple things...
…one, we haven’t signed the first baseman yet. And honestly, I question whether Nady is much of an upgrade on Kotchman. If we get Delgado or LaRoche or even Glaus, I’ll be happier. The second thing is that the Phillies have added Halladay. True they lost Lee, but they didn’t have Lee until we had out full team last year. Comparing the upgrades from the start of last year to now, the Phillies have upgraded more.
On the positive side, we do have Heyward coming at some point—-something you didn’t mention in your post.
cavebird - December 22, 2009
AAA Depth
Is where I put Heyward, because that is where he should start the season.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
But he won't end the season there.
He will be up by June at the latest, and hell, who knows where he should start. I don’t. Some guys thrive early, others need more time. You just don’t know until it happens.
cavebird - December 22, 2009
don’t forget Heyward
McCann's the Man - December 22, 2009
Yeah, I’m more than mildly put off by all the doomsday over-reactions that are being spewed all over us today.
No. 1: Wren is not finished and we can’t very well expect him to have publicly announced his plans at this afternoon’s presser Whether its a FA or two or another trade or two, the opening day roster is not yet exactly set in goddamn stone.
No. 2: KBJ is spot on in saying that we are very solid, will have an improved, significantly superior 25 man roster than we had starting the ’09 season, and should certainly be in a very good position to contend for at least a WC berth into the playoffs.
No. 3: We have some great talent on its way up from the farm. Personally, I expect Heyward to make big contributions next year and wouldn’t be at all surprised to see several other young guns make very helpful contributions, but regardless I’m 100% supportive of not gutting our system in a short-sighted WS or bust approach.
No. 4: None of us are privy to top management intelligence as to budgetary issues or have any basis for even intelligent speculation as to whether an extra $10M or whatever could possibly be available for a mid-season trade deadline move if we are in the thick of the race, the economy has improved and/or Liberty Media has had big profits during the first two fiscal quarters of 2010.
Finally, as fans, it just sucks to be so hyper-critical and pessimistic in the middle of the winter. I have no respect for that.
fandave - December 22, 2009
I actually 100% agree with you…first time for everything!
:)
justincredubil02 - December 22, 2009
Hey, I won’t argue with you. People are talking like the season is over before it’s started because we’re “stuck” with Lowe and we traded Vazquez for “only” Melky Cabrera and two excellent prospects. Cut Wren some slack. He’s not done yet.
John Holton - December 22, 2009
Sense…it is not allowed!
justincredubil02 - December 22, 2009
Glass is half full!
I am really looking forward to this season. I don’t necessarily like everything from this off season so far, but I do think we are positioned to be better than 2009. I am not a Wren apologist nor am I a fan of his tenure so far. I think the jury is still out. I will say if you look at where we finished 2008 vs. 2009 you see we got much better in the W/L column.
2008: 72-90
2009: 86-76
A 14 game increase in wins is nothing to sneer at, and I think we are even better at the moment than we were in 2009. With the rumors now that we are going to sign Glaus at 1B it could get even better. We may not be good enough to take the east away from Phillies (although I am not at all ruling it out), we should be good enough to get the wild card.
First post on talkingchop.com. Been reading comments for a week or two and this seems like a great community for the Braves fan. Keep up the banter!!!!
demsei - December 23, 2009
Welcome.
Best blog I’ve been a member of, hands-down.
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
AGREE
I am posting a lot on this tread because I don’t understand the negativity. We got a good outfielder a GREAT prospect and free up money to sign a 1B. What else did people wanted? Puljos for Vasquez???
jvvenez - December 22, 2009
Sense…it is not allowed!
justincredubil02 - December 22, 2009
I'll buy into this thinking...
+ slow 1st half in 2009.
Jaghomer - December 23, 2009
great job Frank Wren now we are WS favorite [ sarcasm ]
Kobe:The Legend - December 22, 2009
Well
This is my first comment on the trade and personally I like it. Who knows what Vazquez is going to do this upcoming season and to get a good 4th OF guy who can play all three OF spots and is a switch-hitter, a younger, white version of Mike Gonzalez in Dunn and the #3 prospect according to BA, high upside arm in Vizciano. The Braves also dump about 8-9 mil in this deal as well. Who knows maybe Vazquez didn’t want to extend with the Braves and we all saw how the arbitration thing played out this season so the Braves couldn’t bank on that again.
As fans we need to just let the entire off-season play out first before we pass judgement. I know we all want things to happen quickly including myself but we have to give Wren time. Who know there maybe another trade in the works for that “big bat” since we have some more prospects to possibly deal.
Jay212033 - December 22, 2009 via mobile
Javy said
he’d like to continue playing with the Braves. I’m sure he would’ve liked an extension.
alligatorimpersonator - December 22, 2009
maybe he can get it...
if it’s easier to move a starter next winter, he’ll be a free agent.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
And if that's true...
He can sign with us next year. His value will surely be depressed by the shitty season he’s about to have.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
maybe that is part of FW’s evil genious plot???
justincredubil02 - December 22, 2009
Cubs
I still wouldn’t be surprised if FW flips Melky + prospect(s) to the Cubs for Derrek Lee. Even after this conference call. Maybe I’m just being optimistic.
coldriver10 - December 22, 2009
I wouldn’t mind Melky for Vitters or some form of that. Dropping another $3 million in Cabrera’s salary could go a long way in signing that big bat.
waysouth - December 22, 2009
Well
Jason Heyward better tear it up for us from day 1.
Scott Coleman - December 22, 2009
haha
I like your changed signature.
alligatorimpersonator - December 22, 2009
Thanks man
not sure if I like it lol. I wish I could go back to liking him…but I just cant right now.
Scott Coleman - December 22, 2009
If he can hook us up with a formidable lineup that is low-risk (not Nady for God’s sakes), he can earn some cred back…
alligatorimpersonator - December 22, 2009
I'd not be happy if Nady is the biggest signing...
but if we can get Glaus or Delgado, and Nady I’d be happy. I’d be hesitant putting all our eggs in his basket at 1st, but he’d be great on a Garrett Anderson size deal as backup 1B, possible corner OF, spot starter/injury insurance and pinch hitter.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
if nady is our biggest signing i will not pay attention to the braves the whole 162 games this season or until they fire wren
Kobe:The Legend - December 22, 2009
If we don’t get Delgado or Glaus and put Nady at 1B instead, I don’t see the Braves winning more than 85 games.
alligatorimpersonator - December 22, 2009
If we get a biggish 1B bat, we don't need Nady.
The third/fourth OF is just there as a bridge to Heyward, who, in all likelihood, will be up playing every day by June at the latest. With Cabrerea in the fold, there is no need for Nady. Just get the best 1B we can at this point.
cavebird - December 22, 2009
Nady can be injury insurance for Glaus/Delgado...
considering the trio’s recent past, you assume signing two can get you at least one healthy season. Plus if they are both healthy, at least Nady could help in the OF some.
Mr. Sanchez - December 23, 2009
if he can any way send us to the playoffs i am going to begin liking him again
Kobe:The Legend - December 22, 2009
Everybody used to like Frank Wren until today – THE DAY WREN DOOMED US! will be forever remembered in hell
Kobe:The Legend - December 22, 2009
its kinda sad
cause I’ve been a huge FW supporter sine day one.
Scott Coleman - December 22, 2009
maybe a mass suicide would be just the thing.
fandave - December 22, 2009
lmao. you guys are nuts. Patience. It’s not just a virtue. It’s smart.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - December 22, 2009
What? Are you seriously not advocating immediate mass suicide?! WTF?!
fandave - December 22, 2009
I’ll bring the Flavor Aid. :P
bravos1984 - December 22, 2009
Maybe . . .
I would love to see Lee from the Cubbies at first. Does anyone know when his current contract is up? Melky will spell Diaz, McLouth, and Heyward in the OF so that is not so bad. Remember people, Vazquez had a career year last season and did not want to sign an extension. Lowe hopefully will find what his issues were last season as well.
Don’t want Delgado unless it is a one year incentive laiden deal. Would rather have LaRoach back in the house if that is the case. As for Logan, Braves did not use him a great deal last season and will find a suitable replacement for him.
GeneN - December 22, 2009
no way we get Lee. He is under contract for $13 mil. through this year. Way too much money for a non Ted owned team…. oh and he has a no trade clause so i wish we could get him but it will never happen.
ChipperForManager - December 22, 2009
Thank gawd the Braves won’t overpay for Bay or Holliday. Whoever signs those two, will regret giving them 5 or more years in about year 2.
I almost say bring on Nady. The Braves seem to help resurrect other people’s careers from the graveyard. I wouldn’t mind Delgado or Glaus as well.
Sparhawk - December 22, 2009
If those three are truly the only options, and that might very well be the case at this point, I go Glaus over the other every day of the week and twice on Sunday. He’s younger than Delgado, far more talented than Nady, and less of an injury risk than either. No way I get one of the other two before absolutley exhausting all efforts to land Glaus. And no, talking to him on Monday night and suddenly switching and signing Nady early Tuesday morning doesn’t count…
J-Freak - December 22, 2009
I would go Delgado.
We aren’t looking for long-term so the age isn’t as big an issue. But Glaus is right-handed, so I can understand that choice, too. Both have high power potential.
cavebird - December 22, 2009
I wasn’t thinking of age for short/long term reasons. I was thinking about how hard Delgado slumped to start 08 before coming on like gangabusters in June and wondering how much longer it will be before health and age gang up on him to turn that two month slump into a six month one. With the market the way it is Glaus should come on a short one or two year deal; ideally a one year deal with plenty of incentives so that he can try to prove to the world he’s healthy again and have one more shot at a lucrative 3 or 4 year deal.
J-Freak - December 23, 2009
So how does that explain his 914 start last year...
when he was playing pretty much every day?
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
You mean before or after he went down for five months?
J-Freak - December 23, 2009
You said age means he's going to slump early.
Except he hit huge last year when he was healthy right out of the gate. If he’s healthy (and I’d hope we wouldn’t sign him if he wasn’t), there’s no reason he shouldn’t be a solid hitter.
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
That’s actually not what I said. I said I feared age and health combining to take the oomph out of his bat. He’s shown signs of both in the past couple of seasons, for all intents and purposes he’s just been out a full year, and he’ll be thirty-freaking-eight. I think expecting him to come in and be the 30+ HR 100+ RBI guy he used to be is a tall order considering recent history. I’m smart enough to know that that simple number (38) doesn’t automatically equal suckage, but when considered as one piece of evidence in a larger body of factors, and considering that the other biggie, his health, hasn’t been real promising lately either, the conclusion I draw is he’s just too much of a gamble.
J-Freak - December 23, 2009
For what its worth...
…I have just heard that Delgado’s delay in playing in winter ball is indeed due to injury and he isn’t going to play until mid-late January now. He might be to hurt to look at. (And since we have apparently signed Glaus, it is all academic now, anyway).
cavebird - December 23, 2009
With both, the biggest question would what the FO and team doctors...
think about their health. The side of the plate they hit from isn’t that big a deal considering the power both bring (that no one else available besides the much more expensive and more years of Bay or Holliday can bring).
Mr. Sanchez - December 23, 2009
everyone seems to forget...
that at the end of last year, we were a playoff caliber team and were even predicted to go pretty deep if we made it…
this move improves our one weakness, our offense…if we get nady, glaus or delgado or laroche our offense is better than it was at the end of last season..
and if we do make the playoffs, i feel pretty damn good about a postseason rotation of lowe, huddy, jj, and hanson with KK likely moving to the pen.
vazquez has been absolutely horrible in the postseason…lowe has been very good in the postseason…even if lowe is our 4th or 5th best starter next year, you gotta like our chances with his postseason experience and success…
Hcgadawgs - December 22, 2009
+1
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
How does this improve our offense? All it does is make our pitcher worse.
Lennox - December 22, 2009
an extra $10M to spend on the offense is now in hand. you do understand that, don’t you???
fandave - December 22, 2009
So, that there’s a theoretical possibility that Wren, at some point in the future, might possibly use some of this money to improve the offense = “This improves the offense!”?
Lennox - December 22, 2009
Yes, because you can’t have one without the other.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
What?
Is the offense right now, today, better than it was yesterday?
No.
For all we know Frank Wren is going to spend the money to open his own theme park with blackjack and hookers …
Lennox - December 22, 2009
Make up your mind
First, you say no improvements are made. Then you say:
Explain to me how the scenario above is NOT an improvement?
buzzdeadwax - December 22, 2009
LOL
Touche!
jvvenez - December 22, 2009
Jeez, I'm glad someone appreciated that
buzzdeadwax - December 23, 2009
Today is not the first day of the 2010 season either.
fandave - December 22, 2009
And how does that change the fact that this deal has not yet done anything to improve our offense? All you have is the theoretical possibility that Wren might do something good in the future. He might not. Nobody knows.
Birds in the hand.
Lennox - December 22, 2009
you’re right! it is definitely time to go batshit insane! now!
fandave - December 22, 2009
Right, because pointing out that this trade has done nothing to improve our offense is “batshit insane”.
The sane people are all looking in to the future with their crystal balls so they can judge the trade based on how we sign next week.
Lennox - December 22, 2009
You really can’t ever judge a trade the day of. Frankly, trades are all dependent on what happens after the trade, not before, so the only way we’ll truly know if it was a good thing is to wait a year or more. Sure, in the end the actual trade might not be great, if you take out the context of the money the Braves have freed up then it’s fairly likely that Vazquez will be more valuable to the Yankees in 2010 than Cabrera will be to the Yankees, and who knows what will happen with Vizcaino, but you can’t judge it today.
And anyway, all you ever have is a negative stance on things. I swear I don’t think I’ve ever read one of your posts where you had a positive spin on something.
cbwilk - December 22, 2009
THIS!
justincredubil02 - December 22, 2009
Agreed.
get swoll yunel - December 22, 2009
And yet the statement that this trade makes our offense better is pure speculation and should be treated as much.
Sorry to rain on the Pollyanna parade.
Oh, and thanks for the psyche evaluation, Doc. Shockingly enough I’m negative about this team because they do precious little to be positive about.
Lennox - December 22, 2009
1. Chipper Jones – Probably one of the last great player to spend an entire career with one organization, and one of the greatest switch hitters of all time.
2. Brian McCann – The best offensive catcher in the NL. An all-star every year of his career.
3. Yunel Escobar – one of the best upcoming stars in the game and a phenom defensively.
4. Jason Heyward – The top prospect in baseball
5. Thomas Hanson – One of the best young pitchers in the game. Finished 3rd in Rookie of the year voting last season
6. Jair Jurrjens – Another one of the best young pitchers in the game today.
7. Our starting pitching – tops in baseball
8. We have a ton of money to spend now, and are one of the only teams that can say that.
But you are right…there is nothing to be positive about with this team…
Just remember, it is down the road and not across the tracks.
justincredubil02 - December 22, 2009
Sigh
I thought it was rather obvious that I was talking about the direction of the team as a whole, not saying there are no good players on the team.
In fact, when I see a good young (cheap) group like Hanson, JJ, Heyward, Mac, and Escobar, along with a great veteran like Chipper coming to the end of his career, I’d really like those players, especially Chipper, to be on a team that has a shot at winning the WS.
It’s just my nature that if I see someone saying something that I believe is untrue, I’ll say something to counter it. If someone is saying that Player X sucks when I think he’s a pretty solid player, I’ll say so. If someone says that the we just made an awesome trade, when I think the opposite, I’ll say it then too.
When I agree with what most everyone is saying, I generally let the statement speak for itself.
Lennox - December 23, 2009
Oh, and to continue on the ghouth I said above, I want this team and those great players to win a WS, when a move is made that I think hurts those chance, then, yeah, I’m negative about it.
Honestly, I wish that I thought this was a great move that was punching our ticket to a division title, I just don’t see it.
Lennox - December 23, 2009
It was never going to be that kind of move.
No move involving a dump of Lowe or Vazquez would have been. But it’s not even Christmas yet! There’s still lots of offseason to go before even early boarding starts for the division flight.
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
Not really
I agree you sound really negative. Having good cheap players is having a good direction. We increased the chance of having another yough cheap player with this trade. We also gained flexibility. I think there are a lot of positives and not that we can not disagree with the move but to make it sound like it was an stupid move I think that is too much.
jvvenez - December 23, 2009
Yeah, negative me, not viewing Melky Cabrera and the possible addition of a Xavier Nady to be the salvation of our offense.
Lennox - December 23, 2009
The trade was about Vizcaino
Not Melky.
cavebird - December 23, 2009
Even if another trade isn't on the horizon...
what’s to say we don’t take the now open $15 mil, maybe sign some minimum salary vets in January if there’s some we like, but otherwise throws say 1 yr, $7-8m + incentives for games played to Delgado or Glaus, and balance that with say $3-5m for 1 yr of Nady or even lower if he won’t take a possible bench gig and have to go for a little cheaper Garko, or another 1B/OF that are out there. We get insurance in the Nady/Garko if Delgado/Glaus go down, or veteran bat to work in the bench, and a potential 30+ HR hitter for the 4 spot in Glaus/Delgado.
Looking at a lineup of…
McLouth
Prado
Jones
Delgado/Glaus
Escobar/McCann
McCann/Escobar
Diaz
Cabrera
that’s not bad, especially with a healthy Glaus/Delgado and a return to form from Chipper.
Add a bench of Ross, Infante, Nady/Garko/other, and then two cheap options from within or late signee off the scrap heap
A rotation of Lowe, Hudson, Hanson, Jurrjens, and Kawakami is as good as it gets in the NL if healthy. Wagner, Saito, Moylan, O’Flaherty, Medlen, and two more cheap arms from the dozen or so options of Dunn, Abreu, Chavez, Valdez, Hyde, etc. That’s as good a bullpen and staff as it gets in the NL.
If we can sign Glaus/Delgado and their potential 30+ HRs, as well as another decent, but cheaper, veteran bat to limit any injury risk involved with those two, we’ve got our lineup questions solved.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
...
I wish I could be as positive as you Mr. Sanchez
jeramy576 - December 22, 2009
Again with the ‘not so bad’. We weren’t so bad last year – we were essentially average, and in 3rd place.
Also, does anyone else throw up a little whenever the read the headlines, “Yankees add innings eater Vazquez!”, and then below it “Send Melky to the Braves”?
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
haha
yes all day
alligatorimpersonator - December 22, 2009
i threw up all the house
Kobe:The Legend - December 22, 2009
I agree with the BP guy's twitter thing
Any comment about the trade with Vazquez and Melky as the only ones in the headline without mentioning Vizcaino is silly. The best player we got back is Vizcaino, not Melky.
cavebird - December 22, 2009
This.
justincredubil02 - December 22, 2009
Right! And that’s almost the worst case. We may score a longer-term asset / big bat via an unexpected trade that is totally not our speculated rosterbatoried horizon.
fandave - December 22, 2009
*crosses fingers*
C’mon LaRoche and Derosa, I don’t see how these two won’t have to come down on there asking price and when they do I hope that Wren signs them both up, I believe Derosa has already dropped his asking price a bit.
Magoo12218 - December 22, 2009
I also already knew we weren’t going after Bay or Holiday and anyone that believed that is delusional.
Magoo12218 - December 22, 2009
yeah...
but wouldnt it be fun to get in on the bidding for bay just to drive the price up so the mets have to pay more then they will end up getting.
ChipperForManager - December 22, 2009
If anyone here can fill the Braves power need without costing too much, raise your hand
ATLandUNC - December 22, 2009
HAHA. YES. BRING ME DANNY UGGLAAA
nick9314 - December 22, 2009
The Braves are the team he has homered off the most, so he might not like his favorite punching bag hiring him.
bravos1984 - December 22, 2009
You really think uggla would be an upgrade anywhere?
He doesnt want to move from second base. Unless you think Prado can play first? We can sign someone who actually plays first and a power bat in our lineup.
Lewisjsl - December 22, 2009
Please name the player with more power than uggla who can play 1st
ATLandUNC - December 22, 2009
Carlos Delgado
alligatorimpersonator - December 22, 2009
By power, do you mean slugging %?
Albert Pujols
Prince Fielder
Ryan Howard
Mark Teixeira
Miguel Cabrera
Adrian Gonzalez
Kevin Youkilis
Joey Votto
Justin Morneau
Carlos Pena
Lance Berkman
Kendry Morales
Derrek Lee
Billy Butler
Adam LaRoche
Nick Swisher
Garrett Jones
Todd Helton
Paul Konerko
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
Fuggla got owned
alligatorimpersonator - December 22, 2009
That was to name a few. Delgado would be in that list, too.
As well as 2008 Nady and 2008 Glaus.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
Yeah, try naming free agents at 1B smart ass.
I would take Uggla over a 38 year old Delgado anyday.
ATLandUNC - December 22, 2009
Hey KBJ, who on that list could be had in a trade we would realistically make and be able to fit in the budget? Other than Uggla, of course.
And I agree that Uggla would be a far superior addition to a hope and a prayer for one good year out of Delgado.
fandave - December 22, 2009
Seriously? With 15 million?
Miguel Cabrera
Adrian Gonzalez
Kevin Youkilis
Joey Votto
Justin Morneau
Carlos Pena
Lance Berkman
Kendry Morales
Derrek Lee
Billy Butler
Adam LaRoche
Nick Swisher
Garrett Jones
Paul Konerko
We realistically could trade for all those guys… the cost on some of them would be outrageous, but theoretically possible.
And, just for the record, I’d take Uggla over Delgado, too, for the same money and prospect cost for both, but that isn’t what was asked.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
I thought the implication that I meant who could be aquired would be provide more power than Uggla made it known I meant feasible, not 38 year old options.
also, 15 mil is not nearly enough for Miguel Cabrera
ATLandUNC - December 22, 2009
And my thinking is too cluttered to type a proper sentence.
ATLandUNC - December 22, 2009
My bad. He made $14,383,049.00 last year.
He makes 20 million next. Yeah, take him out of the list.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
Yeah
It’s realistic to believe that
Youkilis!
Morneau
Votto!!!
Berkman!
Lee!!
Morales!!
Gonzalez!
and
Cabrera
all all available via trade. That’s totally reasonable.
Bronn - December 22, 2009
Yes, it is.
Berkman, Lee, Cabrera and Gonzalez have been batted around all winter.
Morneau, Votto, Morales would cost a fortune, but could be traded for.
Youk… ah, take him off if you want, but he could definitely be traded for.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
I think our idea’s of “Tradeable” are vastly different. Sure, maybe we could have acquired Lee, Votto, Morales, or Morneau, and only at the cost of being remotely competitive at any time in the near future. So therefore, what’s the point?
Bronn - December 22, 2009
The point is...
that there are much better options for 1st than trading for a 2nd baseman.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
There is not a single first base free agent out there that provides better power than Uggla. Unless Delgado has a miracle and his rickety old knees hold up for 150 games,
ATLandUNC - December 22, 2009
LaRoche, Blalock and Branyan, to name 3.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
Blalock??
Branyan????
Wow, I guess I’m wasting my time debating with you, ha
ATLandUNC - December 22, 2009
Their slugging % are higher. You said this was about adding power.
Not to even mention that Uggla might be horrible at 1st and would cost you much more to get him.
Trading for Uggla and moving him to first makes him lose all of his value, because that can be replaced with much cheaper options…. like Blalock and Branyon. That is my point.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
PRADO CAN PLAY 1ST!
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
There are no good options, period.
I agree that Uggla isn’t the answer, but if trading Vazquez for Cabrera was supposed to free up payroll for us to make a move on Delgado, this move is still insane. There’s no way that Delgado should make a contract over $10 million.
Melky Cabrera + Any free agent 1B << Vazquez. We lost value for next year, and it’s upsetting. We’re requiring on a high A prospect giving us value down the line in order to balance this trade out.
Bronn - December 22, 2009
I think the trade was made so we DON’T have Delgado for next year.
Huddy + Laroche > Vaz + trash heap pickup
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
When, exactly
Was Hudson’s status on this team next year in doubt?
Bronn - December 22, 2009
mmmmm
After the World Series, when they chose to pick up his option.
We knew then that we’d have to trade a pitcher. That signing put us in this position.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
And then we signed Hudson to an extension
And we knew we’d have him. For whatever reason, Atlanta decided that KK wasn’t tradeable, and we couldn’t get anyone to take Lowe off our hands.
(personally, I wouldn’t have minded $5 million of his salary-better than paying $15 of it).
Bronn - December 22, 2009
So...
We are back to trading Vazquez. Welcome to Frank Wren’s shoes.
How do they feel?
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
And, reportedly
The Braves don’t want to give LaRoche the years he wants. We’ll see what happens, but giving long contracts to him while we still have Lowe’s $45 million on the books doesn’t seem like the right way to play for the future.
Bronn - December 22, 2009
2 years, 20 million
and see if he bites. He isn’t exactly in high demand right now.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
He will be
He’s the best free agent 1B on the market right now.
Bronn - December 22, 2009
Your "point" is smartassery.
fandave - December 22, 2009
Ok, but that isn't what you asked.
Adam LaRoche
Hank Blalock (Same %, actually)
Russell Branyan
Jim Thome
Carlos Delgado
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
I’d like LaRoche back, but would almost prefer Uggla in that he is a young, healthy, consistent and very legit RH 30 HR guy to protect Chipper and Heap.
fandave - December 22, 2009
Considering what Uggla would cost in a trade
I think he has much more value at 2nd than 1st, which is the point of all of my smart ass responses.
If you could sign LaRoche instead of trading for Uggla, I think you’d be better off in the long run. A trade for Uggla should mean Uggla is your 2nd baseman, not an outfielder or 1st bagger. Those can be had for cheaper than what he’ll cost ya.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
I’d rather have Uggla at 2B and Prado at 1st then Prado at 2B and Laroche sucking for the entire first half.
ATLandUNC - December 22, 2009
Did I say Prado at first? Nope. You still need a 1st baseman in my opinion.
I just think you lose alot of value to trade for a high slugging 2nd baseman and move him to first, especially when he wouldn’t even as good as some of the FA options out there.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
I dont think it matters where the power plays, its power.
Uggla playing CF would still be 30 HR power, and thats what the team needs. Ugga at 2B and Prado at 1B would be fine by me. Prado could still bat 2nd and Uggla could move into 4th
ATLandUNC - December 22, 2009
Uggla in CF?
Has he ever played there? So you are going to trade for a 2nd baseman and put him in CF? That doesn’t make sense.
LaRoche would bring more production that Uggla and wouldn’t cost you prospects. I fail to see where you are coming from with this Uggla bullshit.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
“LaRoche would bring more production that Uggla "
LaRoche has ONE 30 HR year, and that was in 2006. And he is*awful* in the first half.
Uggla has hit 30 HR every year for 3 straight years.
umm, what?
ATLandUNC - December 22, 2009
Guess who is who?
BA HR RBI OBP SLG
.243 31 90 .354 .459
BA HR RBI OBP SLG
.277 25 83 .355 .488
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
Guess who is younger, cheaper, and doesn’t blow total chunks from April – July
ATLandUNC - December 22, 2009
Cheaper in prospects or cheaper in salary?
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
The Braves now have 3 new young players that give them a lot more flexibility to make a trade. Uggla would not cripple our farm system
ATLandUNC - December 22, 2009
No
He would just cripple our ability to field a ball at 1st base.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
the problem is power, not defense
Prado would field fine at first
ATLandUNC - December 22, 2009
We should sign Barry Bonds and trade for Dunn, put them both in the outfield. Imagine our power then!!
mvandonsel - December 22, 2009
See above.
I can’t think of a worse defense on that side of the diamond in the major leagues.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
Prado would be adequate at 1B, and Uggla has improved a lot the last few years. People that still think he is the butcher he was in 2006 arent paying attention.
ATLandUNC - December 22, 2009
Actually...
If you look at his page on fan graphs his fielding in 2009 was still as bad, if not worse, than it was in 2006-2008.
mvandonsel - December 22, 2009
Prado's actually a well-above average defensive 1B.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Prado's better there than anywhere else.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
But that is...
…because you are wrong. (Taking Uggla over Delgado any day). Sorry. You have a right to your opinion no matter how wrong it is.
cavebird - December 22, 2009
Prado can certainly play first.
It’s his best defensive position.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
I wouldn’t bother anymore if I were you. Most of these people are nowhere to be seen during the season, but the moment some trade happens, they all come out of the woodwork to bash it and talk about how stupid Frank Wren is.
Then, they shut up when the players actually perform the way Wren thought they would.
justincredubil02 - December 22, 2009
its an interesting thing … the occasional, but avid naysayers.
reminds me of that Jim Morrison/Doors song, “People are strange …”
fandave - December 22, 2009
Here's hoping
Jason Heyward breaks into the big league roster by May, and provide a Hanson-like impact.
Bronn - December 22, 2009
May?
He’s going to be on the opening day roster starting in right field.
Magoo12218 - December 22, 2009
You think so?
If that’s the case, why bother trading for Melky Cabrera? So he make $3 million on our bench?
Bronn - December 22, 2009
Personally
I just think that Heyward is going to come to spring training and just flat out outplay Melky and Diaz, therefore they will have no choice but to play him. Melky makes 3 mil, he can play all three outfield positions, he has a pretty good glove and is a great 4th outfielder for those reasons, he and Diaz will wind up battling for the left outfield spot though I really believe that the Braves will sign someone to make my last point(Diaz vs. Melky) mute.
Magoo12218 - December 22, 2009
Spot on.
But you missed that Melky is a switch hitter. Even better for a fourth OF.
cavebird - December 22, 2009
No, Melky is a great fourth OF.
If we don’t sign another OF, I assume Heyward, if he has a good spring, will be the opening day starter in right. Melky’s value is that he can play all three OF positions and is a switch hitter, making him great to spell Diaz against tough righties and McLough against tough lefties.
cavebird - December 22, 2009
So we're not forced to start our three starters for 150 games each?
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
If FW didn't view Cabrera as a viable starter
Then we don’t make this trade, I don’t think. There were plenty of free agents who cost next to nothing and provide enough defensive value to serve as a quality fourth OF (Endy Chavez, for one).
What we got instead was someone whom he can use as a placeholder until Heyward is “ready” (ie, until we’re far enough into the season that he avoids super two status).
And, if our three starters are good enough, I don’t really see a problem with them each starting 150 games. Isn’t that ideally what you’d want? If someone gets hurt, we’re certainly going to employ Schafer or BJones at some time anyway, despite the Cabrera addition.
Bronn - December 23, 2009
God I hope we don't use Jones.
He’s awful.
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
Conspiracy theory time...
I submit that the “higher ups” demanded this trade to slash payroll. Kinda like the Padres owner last year…
Any takers?
nick9314 - December 22, 2009
Totally disagree.
Just as likely the exact opposite is true, that is Wren has or could get authority to push payroll up to $110 or so if it actually made good sense to do so.
fandave - December 22, 2009
It’s not impossible, but I think that “just as likely” is a very big stretch. Nothing makes good sense about trading your best starter, even if you have 6 starters. If the we had any payroll flexibility, we would not have made this move.
Sir Stealth - December 22, 2009
Just wrong. Vasquez had a big contract, as did Lowe. A contract needed to be moved in order to create sufficient flexibility in the budget to add offensive players. Lowe was effectively untradeable. Therefore, the trade made a great deal of sense. If you do not understand that, you are not being sensical.
fandave - December 22, 2009
Vazquez’s deal for next year was great value considering how he pitched last year. Lowe’s was not, and is made far worse by the fact that it is for 3 years and he is 36 years old. Those are not even in the same ballpark. If we make some big signing or trade where we use all this cash that we are supposed to have on hand now, then the Vazquez trade will make more sense. However, I am extremely pessimistic that we are going to make anything better than moderate additions from here on out, and some holes will probably be filled from the bargain basement. We were not barely making ends meet with our payroll before today, and could probably still have afforded the types of offensive additions that Wren seems to have in mind.
Also, wasn’t your entire statement above saying it was much more likely that we actually had additional money to spend? How is it so sensical to simultaneously say that it is likely that we have all this extra money and that we absolutely had to dump Vazquez’s contract
Sir Stealth - December 22, 2009
can you not read very well? I said no such thing.
fandave - December 22, 2009
“Just as likely the exact opposite is true, that is Wren has or could get authority to push payroll up to $110 or so if it actually made good sense to do so.”
-you at 3 p.m.
“A contract needed to be moved in order to create sufficient flexibility in the budget to add offensive players.”
- -you at 5 p.m.
[Sean Connery voice]: You’re playing both sides.
if we get someone that costs so much that the extra payroll was needed, then the trade and your comments make more sense. However, if we just fill our holes with players that could have fit within the money we still had pre-trade or just a little bit more, then in no way did we have to unload our best pitcher. And if what you said above is true and we could push the payroll to $110 million if it made sense, then we really, really didn’t need to unload Javy, wouldn’t matter how good a prospect Vizcaino is.
Sir Stealth - December 22, 2009
Sir you are still not getting fandave's point
He said is NOT true that Wren can push payroll up to $110 mil. Again can NOT. Sorry to be a smart ass but well… you were being one too.
jvvenez - December 23, 2009
He said that it is just as likely that Wren could get the authority to push payroll up to $110 as it is that the ownership demanded that payroll be cut. Now, I understand that trading a player to make room for signing another and dumping a player just to cut salary are two different things. I don’t know how much we’re supposed to be paying Glaus yet. However, it seems to me, based on the breakdowns of our payroll and money that had already been freed up, that we should not have had to unload the fair contract of our best pitcher in order to make room for this signing.
I think it is more likely that we just had too many pitchers as determined by number of starters, not by payroll, and wanted to get value for an extra ones. If this is the case, I do not think that Cabrera/Dunn/Vizcaino is fair value for Vazquez. Even if he was the only one we could trade, I do not think that that’s worth it based on his value to this team.
Sir Stealth - December 23, 2009
Why would you think that?
The print industry is even more of a disaster than the overall economy as a whole.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Liberty Media is a very diversified, very big holding company, controlled by a very savvy and aggressive wheeling dealing Chairman of the Board who was nicknamed DarthVader because he’s such a fucking badass. They seem doing very well indeed and have lots of pending stuff based on my very latest very superficial, non-expert, quick look see.
You have any particularly good reason to think they couldn’t come up with a lousy $10M for anything at all, anytime they chose to do so?
fandave - December 22, 2009
The trade that was made today was a great reason to think that. Trading a Cy Young candidate from last year for a 4th outfielder, a very good prospect, and an ok prospect in order to free up money in the hopes of adding offense is proof that they won’t just kick in another 10m. Our best pitcher’s salary minus Melky Cabrera’s salary is just about exactly that amount.
Sir Stealth - December 22, 2009
They don't give a shit about the Braves and there's no reason to think that would net them any sort of increased revenue at all?
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
There would seem to be no known facts and no rational analysis to support that theory, and to me, both past history and basic understanding of the business dynamics of professional sports suggest the opposite.
I will briefly elaborate:
Since Liberty came to be our corporate overlord, they have been completely supportive supportive of the Braves, as evidenced by the Braves having remarkable continuity of top management, stable and/or slightly increasing ML payroll, expensive upgrades to Turner Field, stable or expanding farm programs, stable or expanding scouting, etc. AND (importantly) never have I read a word – not one word – where any Braves official has made a single negative comment about Liberty. Never ever.
Next: How do MLB clubs make money by maintaining or expanding advertising, merchandising, and broadcast rights revenue? How do they put paying customers in the seats at events? Winning baseball games. Being in races. Making the playoffs. Being champions.
It is a classic spend money to make money proposition. And even if Liberty is “emotionally” detached and not really so keenly interested in the Braves and, therefore, would actually prefer to sell them off to Arthur Blanks (or whoever), all the above is very likely even more true, because they need to have a successful, well-polished shining product with lots of short-term upside to sell at top dollar value.
And again Liberty seems be doing very well financially and have extraordinarily savvy management.
fandave - December 23, 2009
Really? You think the staff's going to complain about the company signing their paycheck?
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
I'll make a deal with anybody/everybody who is bitching and moaning about this trade...
If the Braves don’t make it to the playoffs next year, I will never post on this website again…
If the Braves do make the playoffs next year, none of you ever post on this website again…
Just sit back and see what Frank Wren is going to do next. None of your complaining is going to bring back Vaz, nor is it going to get rid of Melky, so please just chill the F out!!
mvandonsel - December 22, 2009
must…restrain…joke…chill…eskimo…
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
LOL…nice one
mvandonsel - December 22, 2009
I just blew up on my friend for something that he didnt do. He was like, “dude, wtf. Why did you just blow up on me.” I was able to collect my thoughts, and i said, “I’m sorry, its not you, its Frank Wren.”
nick9314 - December 22, 2009
“Where did you get those socks?!”
“I dunno…”
“I think those are MY socks!”
“How are these YOUR socks?”
“I dunno, but those are my socks! I had a pair just like that with the blue stripe and now I don’t have them anymore!”
“Oh yeah, that’s right, you fell asleep one day on the sofa and I took them off your stinkin’ feet, they looked so good to me, I just had to have ‘em!!!
“Yeah, well, they’re MY SOCKS!"
“They’re my socks!!!”
coldriver10 - December 22, 2009
So the best case scenario for next year
is that we added Melky Cabrera and cleared up enough money to add Carlos Delgado?
We clearly, clearly lost value there, unless Delgado rebounds into 2005 form.
Glaus, if Glaus comes back healthy and in 2008 form, might be able to even things out. But his status makes him a bit tough to view as a viable solution.
Bronn - December 22, 2009
Unless Delgado rebounds to..
…2008 form would work.
cavebird - December 22, 2009
No, it wouldn't break even
Vazquez = 6.6 WAR
2009 Melky = 1.7 WAR
2008 Delgado = 2.9 WAR
6.6-4.6 = 2 WAR
I don’t think there’s a decent chance that Cabrera transforms from a 1.7 WAR player to a 3.7 WAR player.
Bronn - December 23, 2009
...because Vazquez is a lock to match his stats from last year, and Cabrera has no chance to improve.
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
damn, I guess that’s it then. we are soooo doomed.
fandave - December 22, 2009
Is it still too late to trade Lowe for a stick in the eye?
I mean, we’re still stuck with his $15 million for 2011 and 2012…moving Vazquez helped clear some payroll space for all of one season.
Bronn - December 22, 2009
With trades like this we are running out of eyes to stick.
Sir Stealth - December 22, 2009
But if he improves even a little...
He’ll be more attractive as a trade piece next year.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
very good point.
fandave - December 22, 2009
We couldn't get ANY interest in Lowe
That’s like giving the ugly chick some lipstick.
Bronn - December 23, 2009
Maybe we can now trade Lowe for Vazquez. Their salaries are close.
Sparhawk - December 22, 2009
What happened to Swisher?
Someone made a valid point that with a lot of guys eligible for arbitration next year the Braves may be hesitant to commit money long term…but isn’t Swisher only a one year deal? I would have rather taken on Swisher contract and not taken Melky.
calbers - December 22, 2009
Do you have any reason to think Swisher was offered by the Yankees or are you merely referring to a rosterbatory fastasyland point?
fandave - December 22, 2009
Beyond the fact that there's no sort of proof whatoever that he was ever offered...
He’s under contract for the next two years, with a minimum of $16.75 mil due.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Well Wren had better spend on SOMEONE to improve the offense. With Javy gone, four of our five starters now pitch to contact. There will be days where those groundballs find a few more holes than normal and we’ll need the offense to step up on a more consistent basis.
bravos1984 - December 22, 2009
THIS
Is soo true.
nick9314 - December 22, 2009
Let me ask this question...
who felt 100% comfortable with our team before the Vaz trade???
mvandonsel - December 22, 2009
Almost no one
And this has not helped anything in that direction.
Bronn - December 22, 2009
I disagree…we have a finite budget, correct?
We tried to move Lowe, that obviously couldn’t and didn’t happen. Vaz had an excellent year last year, I have always been a fan of his, we sold high. I believe that FW got what he could for him and saved money to sign a first baseman.
What other option did we have? I believe that people are pissed because we didn’t fleece the Yankees. The simple fact of the matter is that fleecings don’t happen very often. The market dictates what you can get for players.
mvandonsel - December 22, 2009
are you comfortable with it now?
will you be when the Braves sign garbage like Nady?
ATLandUNC - December 22, 2009
See above...
I believe we will sign LaRoche.
If you were GM what would you have done?
mvandonsel - December 22, 2009
So we traded Javy for Laroche and a prospect who is years away from the big leagues. I wouldn’t have done that.
MatM - December 22, 2009
That’s not really what I asked…I asked what would YOU have done. Lots of people are complaining and not offering any alternative suggestions.
Frank Wren does this for a living. I am sure that he considered all of the offers and made the move that he thought would be best for the team. He sold high, saved money to sign another player(s), and got a highly regarded prospect. What more do you want?
mvandonsel - December 22, 2009
I would have waited, he didn’t have to pull the trigger as quickly as he did.
MatM - December 22, 2009
So
You’d have waited until the FA market completely dried up and traded Millwood for Johnny Estrada?
I mean, Vazquez for pieces of shit?
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
EXACTLY…beat me to it…
mvandonsel - December 22, 2009
there is no reasoning with this crowd. they have all hit the crazy button.
fandave - December 22, 2009
As opposed to trading him now for Melky Cabrera? What’s the difference? We could get prospects at anytime, we did get a good prospect, but “the big bat” is Melky Cabrera.
MatM - December 22, 2009
Umm...and a player who's viewed as very similar to our #3 overall and #1 pitching prospect.
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
Waited for what? Waited for the FA 1st basemen to be signed by other teams? What if he couldn’t get the same return for Vaz down the road?
In my opinion, the longer FW would have waited, the more desperate the situation would have become, thus increasing the chances of the Braves getting screwed over by another team because they know we HAVE to move somebody.
It is easy to second guess somebody when there are no consequences for your actions…
mvandonsel - December 22, 2009
Our team is now worse than it was, I understand the clearing salary concept, but for one of the top 5 pitchers in the league he should have got more, Wren got hustled.
MatM - December 22, 2009
In my opinion you cannot look at the move in a vacuum, because there is a forthcoming move (the signing of a 1st Baseman) that could not have happened without this move occurring first.
I don’t think that Wren got hustled at all. He could have demanded ARod and Tex in return for Vaz but he wouldn’t have gotten it.
mvandonsel - December 22, 2009
And you say this as an experienced expert at making trades with other professional GMs of MLB clubs?
fandave - December 22, 2009
I would have not signed one of Lowe or Kawakami in the first place, thus preventing this situation before it ever happened, then I’d have used the money to sign a good hitter instead of running GA out there, either Dunn or Abreu most likely.
Lennox - December 22, 2009
Now that is a very valid argument (touche); however, realizing that we cannot go back in time to change that what would you have done yesterday instead of the Vaz trade?
mvandonsel - December 22, 2009
Well, it’s hard to say what could have been done with everything about the negotiations having been kept pretty well under guard.
I’d have been willing to eat up to $3 MM a year of Lowe’s deal and pushed that, as a ground ball pitcher, he’d be a good choice to pitch in their wind tunnel.
IF I was willing to deal Vazquez, I’d probably let it “leak” before everyone went to bed, in the hopes that someone would call and make a better offer.
Honestly, I really think a Lowe deal would have been better for both teams.
End of the day we put ourselves in a bad financial situation, and this may have been the only move available (who knows_, but it certainly seems like a light return for Vazquez to get a 4th OF, a middle reliever/LOOGY upgrade, and an A ball prospect (albeit a good one, it seems).
Lennox - December 22, 2009
All valid points…I don’t know. I guess I can’t be too hard on Wren until we see who our first baseman will be.
I do think Vaz will get rocked in NY, kind of sad, I like the guy.
mvandonsel - December 22, 2009
Dude, guess what? In reality, the Yankees wanted Vazquez, not Lowe.
And since you were unfortunately not privy to all the discussions and negotations, although it may be hard for you to accept, your specific critique about how Wren should have played it out is completely, totally misplaced. He very likely did all that and more.
fandave - December 22, 2009
Yes, that’s pretty much exactly what I said. Thanks for repeating it back to me.
Lennox - December 23, 2009
brilliant! of course, with the crystal clear benefit of hindsight.
fandave - December 22, 2009
Right
I said as much at the time when we signed Kawakami. Didn’t like going for a 3rd pitcher (an older, unknown quantity from Japan) over going after a bat.
Looks like I ended up being right about that one.
Lennox - December 22, 2009
Of course you did
If you go against every move the Braves make you surely will get a few right. Sorry Lennox but your neggativity is getting to me
jvvenez - December 23, 2009
So sorry that my negativity is getting to you, chap.
Lennox - December 23, 2009
So we would have thrown Parr/Reyes/Medlen in the 3/4/5?
Boy, that would have been awesome.
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
Uh, it’d have ended up as a rotation of Vaz/JJ/Hudson/Hanson/(Lowe or KK or other pitcher).
Yeah, that does look pretty awesome.
Lennox - December 23, 2009
No, it wouldn't...
we waited on Hanson until May/June (although who knows if we do that without the luxury of Lowe and KK joining JJ and Javy), and Hudson wasn’t going ready until August/September, if then considering the unknown of his rehab in spring. So who fills those spots until they arrive? Reyes then Medlen for TH, sure, but how about the Hudson spot until late August/early September?
Mr. Sanchez - December 23, 2009
I mean, you realize that Wren himself was ready (to the point that he’d signed and faxed the offer sheet) to give Furcal $10 MM a year to add a bat to our lineup, that surely would have taken away our ability to add both Lowe and KK.
So say we sign Lowe. We have Lowe/Vaz/JJ as our top 3. We get two of the AAA guys a shot at the bottom of the rotation, and see how they pitch, once Hanson is deemed ready (his arbitration has been delayed), we call him up. Now we’ve got whichever other rookie is pitching best in the 5th spot until Hudson is back.
And, again, meanwhile you’re replacing GA (-1 WAR) with Abreu (2.5 WAR) or Dunn (1.3 WAR).
Maybe we’re better, maybe worse, maybe the same. But we don’t have to deal away our best pitcher to free up money either.
I mean, we finished in 3rd place last year, it’s not like I’m suggesting making a change to the ’95 team.
Lennox - December 23, 2009
You said there was no Lowe.
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
No I didn’t. I said I’d only have sign one of the two.
Lennox - December 23, 2009
Huh?...
why is Anderson replaced by Abreu or Dunn. And Furcal? You do know he had a pretty bad year, much worse than KJ/Prado did here.
Mr. Sanchez - December 23, 2009
In his scenario...
You use the money saved on not signing KK or Lowe to get one of those guys.
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
Abreu cost less than GA I thought...
was Dunn much more? Both were signed to pretty low deals, and we could have pursued any of the 3 if we wanted them, but we wanted GA most of the 3.
Mr. Sanchez - December 23, 2009
Nope.
Anderson was $2.5 mil
Abreu was guaranteed $5 mil, but had performance bonuses that took that total up to $6.5 because of hitting the highest PA incentive.
Dunn got $8 mil last year and will get $12 mil this year.
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
Sigh
I said that Wren was willing to get Furcal over a pitcher.
I would have done something similar, except that I wouldn’t have gone after Furcal as my bat of choice.
Lennox - December 23, 2009
Wren wanted Furcal. I was using that as an example that Wren was clearly ready to add a bat over a pitcher.
I’d want a bat like Abreu, Dunn, or (top choice) Swisher from the White Sox, if we could have moved on that before the Yankees did.
Lennox - December 23, 2009
So you'd have been happy with 60 wins last year while we waited until August for that rotation to actually appear.
Got it.
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
LOL
Yeah, a rookie in the 5th spot while we’re waiting on Hudson to get back, meanwhile replacing GA’s negative value with an actual quality bat every game, would surely doom the team to 60 wins.
Lennox - December 23, 2009
So who's in the fourth spot? And the third until Hanson came up?
Without Lowe or Kawakami, we’re looking at Jurrjens and Vazquez as our only reasonably decent starters.
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
Sigh
Once again, I never said that I wouldn’t sign both of them. I said I’d have not signed one of the two, then used the money to go after a bat instead, much like Wren was gonig to do with Furcal, though I’d have gone after a different hitter than Furcal if it were up to me.
Yes, you have two months of two rookies getting a shot in the 4/5 spots until Hanson is ‘ready’, then whichever rookie was pitching best gets the 5 spot until Hudson is back.
People were raving about our AAA rotation at the start of the year, I’d have favored giving the kids a chance at the bottom of the rotation over committing that much money to a guy like Kawakami to work at the bottom of the rotation, and improving the offense instead.
Lennox - December 23, 2009
I am even less comfortable now
We just traded our best pitcher from last year for a good prospect and a pile of 4th outfielder crap
UltimaParadox - December 22, 2009
See above
mvandonsel - December 22, 2009
Trading Vazquez
I am ok with trading JV…he has a great year last year and while I think he can repeat ..he hasn’t had a track record of that kind of success. However, in that scenario you have to assume that you are selling him at his high mark…that his value right now would be the highest trade value for him. He had a great year…he has great peripheral numbers…is durable….fairly inexpensive etc. Given that we get this trade from the Yankees? I am not really sold that we got top value for him. You are telling me that there isn’t another team out there that would have given us a little more …that could contribute now….for him?
Yes…the trade frees up some money…but that money isn’t enough to get a top end guy like a bay…or a holliday and this off season there is not a glut of productive corner guys. Therefore I expected us to solve this problem through a trade.
If we were in desperate need of a CF and the take was that Melky was a really good defensive CF…then I could bite…but the reality is that he is a slightly below average…maybe to average CFer and doesn’t hit all that much. He may get better….and I happen to think that he could get better with some conditioning…. but that is a lot to give up for SOME upside.
I am really confused as to what the thinking is on Nady? Nady is a lesser version of Matt Diaz…only he can’t stay healthy and would cost alot more money. Nady’s career OPS is .792 vs Matt Diaz at .812. Yes Nady can play 1B..but for the offense you are getting little in return at a offensive premium position.
If the Braves are really that tight on money they are going to have to get creative and take a little risk…going after a Glaus or Chad Tracy would be examples…as I would think the Upside is much greater then that of Nady..and we need upside. We don’t need a “professional hitter”..ie a marginal hitter that has a longer career. Have enough depth to the line up from 1-8…we need a big bat.
calbers - December 22, 2009
Nady has also compiled those numbers without the benefit of a platoon and tons of rest for the majority of his career.
Diaz’ career high in PAs last season would be Nady’s fifth-best.
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
I hope were not done
That wouldn’t make any sense to be done. We’re the same team from last year, actually we’re probably worse. Our bullpen maybe a little better, not dramatically though. Our outfield, until Heyward arrives, is, at most, just slightly better. We don’t have a first baseman and our rotation without Javy is much weaker.
Jurrjens is likely to regress slightly, his FIP is about a run higher than his ERA, Hanson could face some common 2nd yr issues and Hudson’s health is still a concern. Lowe should pitch better, but the improvement will be nowhere near enough to replace the departure of Javy.
Another thing, while I love pitching and Vizcaino looks like a very promising prospect, our need in the farm system is infield, I would’ve preferred to get a top 3B or SS prospect.
MatM - December 22, 2009
Plus, instead of Yunel getting to hang out with Javy, he’s going to be goofing around with Melky. Hopefully Prado and Infante keep ’em straight.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - December 22, 2009
Why is Hudson's health a concern?
How many pitchers immediately blow up upon returning from TJ? Some, sure, but not a ton.
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
Oh...
And can’t we flip Vizcaino or another of our good pitchers for an INF when the time comes and we really need one?
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
Anyone else think...
…that Wren is just saying this to stay away from the media? Last year was a complete disaster (Peavy/Burnett/Furcal, etc…). I think he’s just keeping quiet so no one will take things out of context… I don’t believe that they aren’t AT LEAST asking what Bay or Holliday’s price is… I’m all for forcing Prado to 1B if we’re gonna spend the money on one of them .
BigG1392 - December 22, 2009
No.
Agents are the ones who lie, not GMs. If he was truly interested in Bay and/or Holliday he would just stay quiet about it, not lie completely. Holliday is far beyond our price range and Bay is getting too big of an offer from the Mets who need to make a splash…………in….the…Bay. DOH!
pancanbra - December 22, 2009
So we’ve downgraded our offense by dropping LaRoche and adding Melky. This is in addition to depleting our pitching (SP and RP). Isn’t this a “win now” team for next year? Guess we just hope for multiple career-years and a breakout from Heyward.
TradeAndruw - December 22, 2009
We haven’t downgraded our offense yet…geez!
I am glad that I am not a building contractor that works for you guys.
I can just see it now!
You guys: Hey, we hired you to build a hotel here! Why are you tearing down this building that was currently on this lot???
Me: Well, I have to tear this old thing down, because it doesn’t serve the purpose you want.
2 weeks later…
You guys: HEY! What are you doing??? THERE IS A HUGE HOLE IN THE GROUND!!! You are supposed to be building an awesome hotel, not digging a huge hole!
Me: Well, you gotta lay a foundation ya know…
2 weeks later…
You guys: HEY! This big empty building with no walls and windows doesn’t look like the hotel we told you to build! There aren’t any doors or carpets! Not even a swimming pool yet!!!
Me: WOULD YOU PLEASE JUST LET ME FUCKING FINISH AND LEAVE ME ALONE!!! When I tell you I am done, you can criticize my work. Until then, STFU!!!
justincredubil02 - December 22, 2009
That sounds good, but there are strong hints that the building that will be put up in its place is gonna be a HoJo scrapped together on the cheap. Obviously, time will tell, and I don’t think that anyone who is complaining about the trade is saying that it will be a bad trade if we use the space to really improve our offense. But, barring an unforeseen trade out of nowhere, all the signs are pointing to us filling our holes with guys who just aren’t that good. Will you feel good about this trade if our big bat acquisition is Xavier Nady?
Sir Stealth - December 22, 2009
Did you listen to the interview with Wren on 790? He guaranteed that there will be more moves made, and that they will improve the offense.
I am thinking a run at Gonzalez is in the works….
justincredubil02 - December 22, 2009
I caught the end of it driving in my car and I admit that it did sound very good. Whenever I’ve thought about who I’d want the Braves to get, Adrian Gonzalez has been at the top of my list. However, when they asked Wren about Laroche, he specifically said that their first choice would be to get a right handed bat, and Adrian Gonzalez is left-handed.
Sir Stealth - December 22, 2009
Yeah. That part kinda interested me too. Wren basically said that LaRoche is not an option at this point…
But, the rest of the interview definitely should set some of ya’lls minds at ease. He talks about how Huddy is now in the rotation, so Vaz really won’t be a huge loss, and he also brings up the fact that many people were mad that he traded for Vaz last year, but then that worked out ok, so all the haters should just stfu. lol.
Slee made a fanpost with a link to the audio…
justincredubil02 - December 22, 2009
Wren is right to to defend himself with good moves that he’s made in the past. I was surprised how frank he was when talking about how they seemed to consider that Javy had a career year last year and might not necessarily be expected to repeat that. There is some validity to that reasoning, but I think that a lot of people who knew more expected Atlanta to be a good fit for Javy and to lead to better results for him.
I’m holding out hope for a big offensive addition just like everybody else. I am just worried, based on an overall feeling about names that have been linked to the Braves, that the kind of player Wren has in mind as a “big bat” is not quite up to par with what people would be hoping for.
Sir Stealth - December 22, 2009
I think all of this Nady talk is a smoke screen…Bobby alluded to the idea that we were looking to trade for a big bat and had a deal in the works. I think we had to clear some salary first, and now that is done.
I expect a big trade soon…please, baseball gods, let it be Adrian.
PS….how freakin hilarious would it be if we got Pujols!
I would love for that to happen (obviously) but not for a baseball reason…just so Frank Wren can stick his middle finger up at all of these haters coming out of the woodwork today.
justincredubil02 - December 22, 2009
I will feel good about this trade if Vizcaino proves to be a stud.
justincredubil02 - December 22, 2009
Which hints are those?
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
Question for the people who hate this trade completely.
Are any of you people who say that Terehan should be untouchable? Because Vizcaino is pretty much the same thing.
cavebird - December 22, 2009
Aaaaaaaand…..
You know.
justincredubil02 - December 22, 2009
No. I would be very willing to include Teheran right now for the kind of offensive addition that people are holding out hope for in the wake of this trade. I’m glad that we got a good prospect, but top prospects are still just people you are praying will some day live up to the kind of potential that can produce the caliber of season that Javier Vazquez just had. Obviously, if we unload the payroll to improve our offense, then it makes getting somebody like Vizcaino along with it fantastic. But until that happens, you can’t prefer Vizcaino down the line to Vazquez right now when we are supposed to be trying to contend.
Sir Stealth - December 22, 2009
I always thought that Vaz was the guy on the move
It makes sense to trade someone at the heigth of thier value. However, I did expect to get something more in return. Next year’s offense is set somewhere between shitty to average. Depending on whether Chipper gets back on track and few others shine.
Note; This post just took all the fun out of the off-season!!! :(
Trek - December 22, 2009
So who is the big bat we are looking at now >
B/C if it is not A. Gonzo from the Padres or D. Uggla from the Marlins then we are screwed going in.
Diaz/Mclouth/and it better be Heyward to start the season in RF and not Melky b/c he is not a everyday player but a decent-good 4th OF.
Go Braves and FW you better have something else up your sleeve.
Holty_Panthers_Fan - December 23, 2009
I wonder how Derek Lowe is feeling now?
Bluechips85 - December 23, 2009
Probably still whiny.
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
hmm
wonder if we would trade mclouth. or atleast be more open to it
drumzalicious - December 23, 2009
Why trade Javy?
If this is the case, then why trade Vazquez at all? He had a 1-year contract. If you aren’t gonna spend his money on something else, why even do that trade. This is the most depressing week ever as a Braves fan in my memory. We have basically entered full rebuilding mode.
thebert99 - December 23, 2009
Because you might as well get something for a guy who might well not come back when you have six good starters.
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
It seems to me that this is definitely why we did it, more so than freeing up the cash. It seems like we would have already had the payroll flexibility to sign Glaus before trading Vazquez. If this is the case, then I cannot understand why people would think it so senseless or negative to disagree that the value we got for Vazquez wasn’t worth it.
Sir Stealth - December 23, 2009
You think we're done?
I’m nearly certain we’ll sign somebody else between now and ST who’ll have an impact on thist team.
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
Maybe not, but I don’t think that it will approach using the amount of money that we would seem to have available after trading Vazquez. I wouldn’t be surprised if we got a guy like DeRosa who can play all positions, but the team looks pretty filled out to me at this point when you consider that Heyward is likely to play a big part. I don’t think we’re done done, but it would seem that anything that’s left to happen will be of less impact than the Glaus signing. Even if we do add someone else, it probably will be a situation where their salary plus Glaus’s would come close to the money that we seemed to have available as it was.
Sir Stealth - December 23, 2009
And the money can help once the season starts, too.
If we don’t spend it now and we need to add salary to upgrade at corner OF or elsewhere in a trade, we can do it. That’s a pretty helpful thing in itself.
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
*sigh….
justincredubil02 - December 23, 2009
Troy Glaus will be our first baseman according to Ken Rosenthal via Twitter
Dutch Braves Fan - December 23, 2009
Come on K Ros, get one right
Mr. Sanchez - December 23, 2009
Great. Now it will never happen.
justincredubil02 - December 23, 2009
Hopefully we'll get a tweet later today...
saying it’s not gonna happen, and they can announce later tonight with an official PC Monday. Give me Glaus, and then a good injury insurance with Nady, Jacobs, Garko, or another option among the many out there, and then just wait until Jan/Feb to pick up a couple cheap scraps off the minimum salary pile and get to work. As I’m sure some have noticed by now, Glaus would be the ideal 1B if healthy. He has a pretty good glove so shouldn’t be a problem flipping sides of the diamond, would likely be a good clubhouse fit (Cardinals seemed to like him, and I see us with a similar locker room), and can straight mash when healthy to 25-30+ HRs from the right side. Perfect in the middle with McLouth, Chipper, Escobar, and McCann around him.
Mr. Sanchez - December 23, 2009
The best part is
By March 29th, regardless of this team’s structure, so many of you guys will be as excited as an eight year old on Christmas Eve, who knows his Nintendo 64 is under the tree, for some meaningful baseball, and there will be optimism in the air all over again.
royhobbs - December 23, 2009
Indeed.
justincredubil02 - December 23, 2009
Yeah too bad it’s 2009 and we’re the kids just getting a N64.
AirHawksnumberonefan - December 23, 2009
I still play mine pretty regularly.
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
Conker’s Bad Fur Day. Best. Game. Ever.
cbwilk - December 23, 2009
Any chance the team gets sold soon?
It would be really tight if Blank bought it, he would be the Lord of Atlanta!
fizzbot - December 23, 2009
It all makes sense!
Finally it all makes sense I never could figure out why the Braves didn’t offer LaRoache arbitration seemed like a good deal to me 1 year until Freeman is ready now I know why his name is Adrian Gonzalez. The Braves have the prospects that the Padres can afford the Padres would never take Lowe or Vasquez way to much money but now its a perfect fit. Frank Wren make it happen. Merry Christmas Braves fans 1B for the Atlanta Braves Adrian Gonzalez.
Fear The Turtle - December 23, 2009
Troy Glaus?
Please say no! Please.
Fear The Turtle - December 23, 2009
It appears to be Glaus.
And if he is healthy, he is a good fit. Right-handed, and definitely a power bat.
cavebird - December 23, 2009
why not?
Mr. Sanchez - December 23, 2009
I was just hoping for so much more. This is not an upgrade over last year lateral at best. I’m starting to lose hope that Frank has bigger plans. When is he going to spend all of this money he is saving on Vasquez.
Fear The Turtle - December 23, 2009
This is why the “just wait til part 2 when we use the new money” crowd never won me over. Glaus could be a fine addition for us, but I never got the feeling Wren had any more than this in mind. We traded Vazquez to get whatever we could get for one of our 6 starters, but all of these starters are not equal. Vazquez was the best one last year – you can say that he wouldn’t have repeated it, but our rotation does not seem quite as great now. I think that he may just take the extra cash and stick it in his pocket. or maybe he gave Glaus a ton of money, who knows.
Sir Stealth - December 23, 2009
Yes, Wren surely gets to pocket any freed-up money.
Is that like a bonus program?
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
C’mon man, you know that’s not what I meant.
Sir Stealth - December 23, 2009
You do know it's December, right?
There are over three months until real baseball starts.
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
Glaus is most definitely an upgrade over Kotchman.
justincredubil02 - December 23, 2009
what?
Glaus is a bat that has hit close to 30 HR’s in every full season he has played if not more. He came back from injury playing 3B and playing it well. Even if he gives us .250/.350/.450 w/ 25 HR’s thats still an upgrade over Kotchman and likely what we would have gotten out of LaRoche going by his career numbers except the difference is:
He is a RIGHT HANDED bat which is something we need.
He is CHEAP (2mil plus incentives) and he still will barely make what Adam is asking.
He wont block Freeman from starting in 2011.
Also trading Javy was needed because no one wanted Lowe and the ppl that even thought about it wanted us to eat HALF of his salary. HALF and we still prob wouldnt have gotten anything of value back.
Trading Javy gave us a good 4th OF’er who has been very good in clutch situations meaning that coming off the bench he can actually help us out in a PH situation. Also we got a power LH reliever to go in our BP who will be an upgrade over Logan. Him and Kimbrel will both learn A LOT from Billy Wagner and hopefully become our 8th/9th inning team for years to come. Last but not least the centerpiece of this deal was Vizcaino. The young fireballer who is almost another Teheran. Throws a little softer but same stuff as Teheran (mid 90’s FB, Power Curve, Developing Change). In 2-3 years you will be loving this deal. We will have a dominant back end of the Bullpen lefty and one of the top pitching prospects in baseball knocking at the rotation door along with Teheran.
I mean if you want to be honest.
Glaus will give us almost the same power production as Bay if he is healthy. He isnt a defensive albatross in the field. And he is here for one year, not blocking prospects and cheaper. Holliday is someone who has yet to show an OPS over 850 from Coors. He is a good 3rd hitter but I honestly believe he is a RH Brian McCann looking at both of their stats. The difference being the base stealing ability.
Both of those guys would have created a log jam in our outfield next year and been expensive for years to come seeing as how we are still on the hook for 15mil a year to Lowe.
Mike Cameron is a guy who is 37/38. We just signed two relievers in the same age bracket and have a 3B thats in that same age bracket not to mention one of our starting pitchers. In other words he is too old and his power numbers would not have been what we needed. Yes he would have been an upgrade but not as big of one as we were seeking.
Other than that who are your RH options that were FA?
Jermaine Dye? the guy who has never really played 1B in his Career and is on the decline?
Mark Derosa? Where does he play when Heyward, Schafer, and Freeman are starting next year? What do we do sit Prado?
I mean come on.
drumzalicious - December 23, 2009
I agree with much of what you said...
But it’s very unlikely that Dunn ever becomes a setup guy or closer. I’d also say that it’s pretty impossible to tell whether Glaus will be bad on defense or not. The 10 or so games he’s played at first don’t exactly give him a huge advantage over Dye.
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
true
I was saying that based off of Glaus playing a solid 3B and translating some of that athleticism to 1st. Dye would have been my choice after Glaus or Nady.
From what I have read on Dunn he has some very good stuff just some control issues. Which is the same thing said about Kimbrel and the same problems that Wagner had coming up. It was just speculation of the effect Wagner could have on these young guys.
If you can’t tell I’m really excited about our bullpen. I really hope the team let’s Medlen develop more as a starter.
drumzalicious - December 23, 2009 via mobile
ARTHUR BLANK SAVE US
WE NEED NEW OWNERSHIP
fizzbot - December 23, 2009
Yeah! Damn those guys who give us the 11th highest payroll in the game!
justincredubil02 - December 23, 2009
Troy Glaus
Wife isn’t that hot. Don’t know if there is a sex tape like Melky.
TradeAndruw - December 23, 2009
Damn.
He could do better.
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
we're not the Yankees
Its frustrating to read all the posts about the Vazquez trade, especially from those people who believe budgets do not matter. We are operating under a constrained budget, and no amount of whining is going to change that. So until an owner who is willing to lose money on the Braves steps up, that is the reality in which we will live. Several folks on here seem to understand this, and view this as a decent trade, especially in that light.
It is also frustrating to see the complaints about Lowe’s contract. Wren completely rebuilt a rotation last year. He did not have the luxury of assuming Hudson would return strong from tommy john surgery or that Hanson would not only be ready for prime time, but that he would dominate.
Its easy to complain, but I think its hard to make the case that the 2009 Braves were worse than the 2008 Braves. And I suspect it’ll be hard to make the case that the 2010 Braves are worse than the 2009 Braves. Fantasy trades are considered fantasy for a reason — and we should not hold the Braves to that standard.
Okay, my appeal for reason is complete. Please go back to your normally scheduled rants.
hollerin' brave - December 23, 2009
I really haven’t seen too many posts like the ones that you describe (maybe you are talking about the DOB blog, which I never read anymore because of the abundance of what you are describing). There are plenty of reasonable reasons to disagree with the Vazquez trade without thinking that we have any extra money to spend. It’s a lot easier to get high and mighty about it than to debate the points though I guess. I understand why we made the move, I just don’t think that all of the context justifies the end results in this case. Doesn’t mean we can’t still have a great team this year.
Sir Stealth - December 23, 2009
Good god, this.
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
Thank you.
justincredubil02 - December 23, 2009
IM HAPPY...
…with what we’ve got on opening day right now. Diaz, Mclouth, and Heyward in the outfield (and I believe FW has every intention of putting Heyward on the opening day roster, barring a horrific spring training) and now our infield looks set with a legit 30 homer 100 rbi guy when healthy at first. We’ve got a great shot at the WC, if not the division
Brave Neander - December 23, 2009
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