Holy crap! That was fast. Lots of early morning rumors surrounding Vazquez and now multiple confirmation about a deal:
The Yankees have agreed to trade Melky Cabrera, Mike Dunn and a minor leaguer to the Braves for Javier Vazquez and Boone Logan.
#yankees, #braves deal will send vazquez, boone logan to ny for melky, lhp mike dunn and a prospect. si.com story up soon
More to come...
[UPDATE 9:55am] My first impression here is mainly that of a money dump for the Braves in order to sign someone else, perhaps a big bat. Melky Cabrera will earn under $3 million in arbitration, and Mike Dunn replacing Boone Logan should save the Braves another million in arbitration. Subtract Vazquez' $11.5 million salary and the Braves save around $9.5 million on this deal. That's good money to go out and get a decent bat. This trade may also look a lot better depending who the unnamed prospect turns out to be. With this kind of return I would think it would have to be someone pretty good.
Here is Joel Sherman on who the other player may be:
I am hearing #Braves also are getting RHP Arodys Vizcaino, who impressed at short season Staten Island
While he may be young, Kevin Goldstein just ranked him as the number 2 prospect in the Yankees system!
[UPDATE 10:00am] The trade is confirmed by the NY Post's Joel Sherman. Good work by him on getting the scoop on this deal.
so the trade is vazquez and boone logan to Yankees for melky cabrera, mike dunn and arodys vizcaino, that is now confirmed by Post
Prepare for backlash, Frank Wren. Even with a high-ceiling prospect in the trade, we are essentially swapping a power pitching ace for Melky Cabrera, who is barely a rung above fourth outfielder status, and might be a rung below Jeff Francoeur status. WTF?
[UPDATE 10:10am] David O'Brien chimes in with ths:
Braves are not going to pay any of Javier Vazquez money in this deal.
So this is clearly more of a desperation move to clear salary in just about any way possible.
[UPDATE 10:30am] Another update from DOB, shedding more light on the decision to move Vazquez vs. Lowe:
I’m told the Braves exhausted efforts to trade Lowe and didn’t think they’d be able to deal him now or later without eating a chunk of the contract. Thus, they reluctantly returned to moving Vazquez, knowing they could get plenty for him. Which they apparently are from the Yankees.
I kind of figured this was the case. Three years left on Lowe's deal at $15 million per is an albatross of a contract to try and move.
[UPDATE 12:15pm] Hey! Buster Olney says we also get $500,000 in the transaction... way to squeeze those Yanks for every red cent.
0 recs | 610 comments
Sigh, I wonder if I can learn to NOT hate Melky Cabrera. I put so much effort into Yankee hate that its rough one gets traded to Atlanta.
cgilmo78 - December 22, 2009
Wow, just wow...
for one, because the Yankees wanted Javy back. B) For the deal itself. And fourthly, I guess this means there was absolutely no market for Derek Lowe that didn’t involve us paying some of the salary.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
Melky is the big bat we need?
Argh.
Anyone know if the Yankees even have a prospect that would make this palatable?
HailStonz - December 22, 2009
No, we can now manuever for the slugger...
Melky is the 3rd/4th OF to fill a spot until Heyward and Schafer are ready, or perhaps perform well enough to play alongside those two going forward.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
4th, Melky is not better than Matt Diaz
JD-ATL - December 22, 2009
sorry, Matt Diaz and possibly comparable to Jordan Schaffer without a wrist injury
JD-ATL - December 22, 2009
Melky Cabrera couldn’t hold Schafer’s jock.
bigjoe - December 22, 2009
WORD
SmithnCompany - December 22, 2009
Assuming Schafer and Heyward start in AAA...
who would be 3rd with McLouth and Diaz to push him 4th?
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
Just because someone is starting doesn’t make them a starting outfielder.
bigjoe - December 22, 2009
Honestly?
how do you even respond to that. They might not be deserving of a starting job, but I think you just contradicted the definition of the words.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
The Braves could put me in left field on opening day. That doesn’t mean I have the talent to be a starting outfielder, it just means some people are fucking retarded.
bigjoe - December 22, 2009
But if you are standing in LF, on opening day...
with a glove and jersey on and not streaking the field, then by definition of the term, you are a “starting OF”. Gregor Blanco sucked ass, but for a year he was our “starting CF”. Ability and job title are different things.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
You’re missing the point, so I’m gonna leave it at that.
bigjoe - December 22, 2009
No, I got it a while ago...
Cabrera sucks. But if he is in the starting lineup at RF, CF, or LF, then by definition of the term he is a starting OF. You can say Cabrera stinks, he’s Gregor Blanco with more power and less speed, that he doesn’t deserve a starting job or is a drain on the lineup as a starter. But if he is on the field when the game begins, by the actual meaning of the damn words, he is a “starting outfielder”.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
That’s just a semantical technicality though.
cbwilk - December 22, 2009
But it is the definition of the term...
starting OF is not indicative of talent or ability. It’s status. You are either starting in the OF or not. Ability has nothing to do with job title.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
I think you’re attempting to willfully misunderstand the point.
cbwilk - December 22, 2009
Disagree...
call it semantics or a technicality if you will, but starting OF is an easy definition. You can say he isn’t good enough to be a starting OF, we need a better starting OF, or any of a number of ways to say it. But to say Melky Cabrera is “starting but not a starting OF” would be ignoring what words mean.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
See, that’s what he was saying with the meaning. And you knew that’s what he was saying, but instead of just accepting it and moving on you decided to make it a semantical debate. That’s just silly.
cbwilk - December 22, 2009
but who's silly?...
me for expecting him to use words that make sense, or him for not just using the proper words.
I’ll admit though, you are correct.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
You, for expecting him to use the exact phrase that you want to hear. He did use a words that made sense, otherwise you wouldn’t have been able to articulate such a coherent argument about how they didn’t.
cbwilk - December 22, 2009
I can be an ass, agreed...
but back on the real discussion below.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
And as I've learned,
technically correct is the best kind of correct.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
Back on point of the people who actually play in the OF...
the Braves are now going into the year with a starting OF that will combine for less than $10m—McLouth, Schafer, Cabrera, Diaz, and Heyward. That quintet combines for probably over 450 of the 486 total OF starts at that $10m fee, and leaves us plenty of money for a pair of risk/reward big bats at 1B. We get the aforementioned flexibility with the roster, plus two good young pitchers. Not a terrible deal.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
Following up…is it possible we’re getting Montero and then we’ll flip him for a big bat? Then I could live with this…
HailStonz - December 22, 2009
Apparently not.
We got a really young, high upside pitcher (the third-best in their system, although you know what that means.)
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
I am so fucking pissed. So. Fucking. Pissed.
bigjoe - December 22, 2009
Well said
except I would’ve added about a thousand more fucks. But I’m too busy puking right now, so thanks for talking for both of us.
Lizziebeth - December 22, 2009
ditto.
Jareth Cutestory - December 22, 2009
This
blitzerlover - December 22, 2009
If Javy comes back to earth this year, this deal could be ok. If he’s the ace he was last year again, I hate it more than I hate Philly fans(and that’s a whole lotta hate!)
Rhyno18 - December 22, 2009
this is a horrible deal. if it was swisher i would be ok with it. i hope melky doesnt pass his physical
longshotsmith - December 22, 2009
Agree
Swisher is about 25 pts below Cabrera in BA but Nick has a lot more power.
blairblink - December 22, 2009
but we don;t need anymore guys like that. Thats what we have in Prado, McClouth, Escobar…we needed the power bat to go with them
JD-ATL - December 22, 2009
Horrible!
awoods187 - December 22, 2009
What.. The.. Hell? Really? That’s the best we could get for Javy and Boone?
Griffon - December 22, 2009
We also get
Arodys Vizcaino
blairblink - December 22, 2009
Fucking whoopee, how in the shit does that help us NOW?
bigjoe - December 22, 2009
Frees up cash...
and gives us the OF to bide time until the two kids are ready from AAA. Now we just need 1B, and that’s about it other than fine tuning the bench with cheap deals either internally with a kid or with a vet that gets no interest come the end of January/early February like Eric Hinske, Ryan Garko, or Xavier Nady.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
This is what you’re having problems understanding. Melky Cabrera is NOT a stopgap. He is a horrible baseball player with no power. He is a fourth outfielder on a good day.
bigjoe - December 22, 2009
So we have different opinions on Cabrera, OK
I’m not saying it’s a great deal, but none of us know what else he had on the table.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
We have a full $10 mil to spend on a 1B.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
WOOP DEE DOO
You’re telling me we might have enough to get Russell Branyan? OMG how exciting is that
SmithnCompany - December 22, 2009
Horrible deal again Wren.
DrB - December 22, 2009
Wren is an idiot.... enough said...
I am beginning to hate Wren…
fizzbot - December 22, 2009
You have always hated him and looked like an idiot in the process of doing so.
justincredubil02 - December 22, 2009
This trade
is about as awesome as shoving tree bark down my pee hole.
rbratt3 - December 22, 2009
So I guess the confindence rating will drop once more.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
DOWN your pee hole?
Jareth Cutestory - December 22, 2009
WREN=MORON!
Seriously? Horrible. Now what do we do with Lowe? Have him pitch for us even though he knows Wren was trying to trade him and he is not wanted here? Ya that works!
McCannsMuscle - December 22, 2009
You think he's going to just quit?
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Doubt it
But that does not mean he would not cause some problems within the clubhouse.
SmithnCompany - December 22, 2009
Yeah, it’s just hard to imagine him pitching “inspired” after all this. The message Braves sent indirectly to Lowe through the media was “this guy was a total flop for us, and we spent way too much money on him. We’d love to dump his salary for a player worth a damn.” Then apparently the entire league agreed that he wasn’t worth what he was being paid, and now we’re stuck with him.
Now go get ’em, Derek!
KoKo the Monkey (T-Bone) - December 22, 2009
The Red Sox did the same thing to him, and he pitched just fine after that. No worries about Lowe
Bmacbandwagon - December 22, 2009
Melky
I’m already looking forward to one you elite posters to give us a breakdown on Melky. For now, I’m not impressed with Melky based on my limited research this morning.
Who else is NOT looking forward to “Got Melky?” signs at Turner Field?
KoKo the Monkey (T-Bone) - December 22, 2009
He has no power.
bigjoe - December 22, 2009
But he has a “great” arm. Wait, didn’t we have an outfielder like that before? ….
SmithnCompany - December 22, 2009
he has no speed
a hay - December 22, 2009
not a bad trade..
this just means there is no market for lowe.
SidKotchman - December 22, 2009
atleast not one where were eating alot of money.
SidKotchman - December 22, 2009
Explain how its not a bad trade. We just traded our best pitcher for a fourth outfielder.
bigjoe - December 22, 2009
THIS
We just traded a power pitching ACE for junk… Wren is an idiot…. he is killing out team, and still, NO BAT!
fizzbot - December 22, 2009
our best pitcher who had an above himself year.
i like javy..but he played above his actual talent last year..why i have no clue..he’ll flop in a yankees uniform..al east bats will love his fastball.
SidKotchman - December 22, 2009
THIS
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
you gotta be joking
Vazquez didn’t play above his actual talent at all; he fully realized his potential and kicked ass. Javy has always had ace stuff, and when he is comfortable in Atlanta and finally lives up to his potential, we trade him for Melky effing Cabrera. Embarassing.
alligatorimpersonator - December 22, 2009
I don’t think a 33 year old can technically finally “realize their potential”
I am the biggest Vazquez guy around here, and hate to see him go, but I think Wren did a pretty good job on this one.
justincredubil02 - December 22, 2009
Sorry, but a career year with the best stats of his life across the board doesn't mean that's his talent level.
It’s called a fluke. I guess you really wanted Gary Matthews when he was an FA.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Very Unimpressed
And I’m being extremely nice when I put it that way.
Travisio - December 22, 2009
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
bpk228480 - December 22, 2009
Wow.
Wow, this is all we can get? Seriously? I highly doubt it, and I’m extremely suspect of Mr. Wren’s negotiating prowess.
Mark Lempke - December 22, 2009
P.S.
I just (finally!) got a job this morning! Everything’s been going my way. Got some booty coming home for Christmas, finished Christmas shopping early, both my fantasy football teams won and are going to the championship to play for big $, and now this shit. RUINED my spirit. Fuck’n Frank.
— By the way, anyone interested in adding some extra yards to your wood play (Wood play in a golf sense), check out Krankgolf.com!
Mark Lempke - December 22, 2009
It is absolutely shocking that this is all we could get for the Braves BEST pitcher last year. I realize this could be considered a salary dump, but come on! Surely we could have gotten better players!!!
THIS IS ABSOLUTE HIGHWAY ROBBERY!
If it wasn’t bad enough, getting Vasquez AND Boone Logan who has been looked at by several teams as a hidden talent??!! He didn’t do that well for us last year but I’ve heard good things. This could turn out to be a terrible deal if Vasquez turns in another good year and Logan provides great lefthanded relief!!
BUT who knows, Vasquez could revert back to his 4.00+ ERA days… Wouldn’t that be hilarious? Vasquez falls back and Lowe has a career year?? HAH!!
Okay, that doesn’t help. Crap… :-(
proeye - December 22, 2009
lowe can redeem himself.. vazquez can't get any better than last year..
SidKotchman - December 22, 2009
Then we better hope and pray… ;-)
proeye - December 22, 2009
lowe can right himself from shocking decline at 38
yeah I guess so
a hay - December 22, 2009
A "shocking decline?"
Please. He had a bad half a season.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Ha...Boone Logan, a hidden talent?
You do realize that he couldn’t get out of Gwinnett last year, right? That he’s been awful over four seasons and 125+ IP in the majors?
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
So you're saying
That the Braves are a better team after this trade goes through? I seriously hope not.
SmithnCompany - December 22, 2009
depends on the 1B signing...
while we all know who pitched better last year, Derek Lowe has the stuff to turn it around and Vasquez pitched better than he ever had. We could have easily kept the better P, and I’m willing to be put down as saying Derek Lowe will outpitch Javy Vasquez in 2010.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
dilusional perhaps?
You realize Javy has always been a strikeout pitcher with great peripherals, but when he returned to the NL, his numbers really started to shine. Lowe on the other hand, well I don’t want to waste my time explaining why he’ll be an albatross to the Braves for 3 more years.
SmithnCompany - December 22, 2009
And Vasquez has pitched much worse in New York,...
with his propensity for HRs being an issue there. While Lowe pitched better than his base #s last year, and could easily be due for a second year bump up ala Tim Hudson.
Let’s just add this to the list of predictions my crusted memory needs to recall…
Derek Lowe will outpitch Javy Vasquez in 2010
cb and I wagered a “I was wrong” post on Neftali Feliz or Elvis Andrus making an All Star team in 2010, 2011, or 2012
And then there was one more I’ve already forgotten.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
Vasquez might bomb in NY in that park
But if he remains a Brave, he would pitch better than Lowe with both hands tied behind his back
Well almost :-)
a hay - December 22, 2009
Thank you for your insightful conjecture.
Your well-thought analysis is much appreciated.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
They have the potential to be a better team.
Where exactly did Vazquez’ stud pitching get us last year. But I don’t have any idea how commentary on Logan suggests I think “the Braves are a better team after this trade goes through.”
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
No you didn't exactly say that
But you did basically insinuate that Logan was just a throw-in and not worth much. However, who’s to say that the return Atlanta got is worth much.
SmithnCompany - December 22, 2009
He was, absolutely.
And we got back a younger, cheaper replacement with more upside.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Rediculous. Terrible. Melky is garbage. What the hell is Wren thinking?
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
Agreed completely.
Oh yeah and ridiculous is with an “i” instead of an “e” :)
alligatorimpersonator - December 22, 2009
Fire Wren!
This is so un-fucking believable. I wake up to this? I’m seriously thinking of boycotting the Braves next season. Frank Wren is a complete abomination on this franchise!
BravesFan - December 22, 2009
+1
My friend and I said the same thing!
McCannsMuscle - December 22, 2009
Rotation
So Hudson, Lowe, JJ, KK, and Young Thomas? That still seems like a very good rotation to me, assuming Lowe picks it up a bit.
KoKo the Monkey (T-Bone) - December 22, 2009
Yes, our rotation is fine, but we got absolute junk back for Vazquez when we should’ve gotten something that would help our ball club.
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
$10 million to spend on a 1B?
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Who? I keep hearing mention of this mythical first baseman who’s gonna be worth signing to a $10MM a year contract, but for the life of me I can’t come up with the name. Like I said…if this is the only value we get for Javy (yes, money included) then we’re far better off having him pitch for us.
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
The rosterbation post has been cleaned up to reflect the changes...
we have 4 spots now, with anywhere from $10-20m to spend on it. Assuming one bench spot and the last reliever are filled by minimum salary internal options, that leaves us two spots for the remaining money. And yes, we can sign a pair of risk/reward bats hoping at least one pans out and can be the slugging 1B we desire.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
Barry Bonds, duh
Bmacbandwagon - December 22, 2009
lol, I’d pay money for tickets to see his gigantic head rolling around and the fans yelling obscenities at him for sullying the house of Aaron.
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
that seems like still an awesome rotation to me..
kk will be alot better this year after a year under his belt.
SidKotchman - December 22, 2009
DOB tweets
that Braves will not pay any of Javy’s salary. God, I would hope not.
KoKo the Monkey (T-Bone) - December 22, 2009
hope there is still a prospect to be named later...
Arodys Vizcaino is a very interesting arm. Good young 18 year old righty said to have a mid 90s heater, and plus curve as well as a change. Seems similar to other prospects we have in Robinson Lopez and Julio Teheran.
Booner Logan and Mike Dunn seems a wash. So we’re looking at Vizcaino and Melky Cabrera for Vasquez. Not a great ideal, and we all wanted more like Lowe for Swisher. But clearly the Yankees weren’t gonna do that.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
Logan and Dunn is a talent wash...
But Dunn is younger, cheaper, and has a higher ceiling. Logan’s already proven he’ll never be even an average MLB reliever.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Well, the trade obviously accomplished its goal.
We are trying to win the NL East this year, we are trying to win the Sally League. Rome is going to have one kick ass rotation this year.
cavebird - December 22, 2009
Have the Braves gotten the upper hand on any deal in the last 5 years?? I SWEAR TO GOD, it is unbelievable how many times the Braves have GIVEN away talent because of their 1) Idiotic strict payroll, and 2) Their telegraphing that they MUST trade players away. It is so aggravating that we have to take every deal in the shorts every single time.
WE BETTER GET BACK GONZALEZ, BAY, OR HOLLIDAY OR THIS DEAL MAY TURN OUT BE THE WORST DEAL IN ATLANTA BRAVES HISTORY ONLY SECOND TO THE TEXIEIRA DEAL.
Maybe the hated Melky can be traded along with 3 other players for Gonzalez…
DAMN IT!!
proeye - December 22, 2009
We’ve got no hand. No Hand!
bpk228480 - December 22, 2009
Actually the time we acquired Tex along with trading him away was highway robbery… Now we have this??? DAMN!!!!
proeye - December 22, 2009
The Jurrjens deal was a flat out robbery.
bigjoe - December 22, 2009
It was
But this deal for ATL was the complete opposite.
SmithnCompany - December 22, 2009
I think the feeling on this trade will be different 10 months from now
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
THIS
Bmacbandwagon - December 22, 2009
How is it going to be different "10" months later?
Is Melky going to magically put up Miguel type numbers and be the answer to the Brave’s powerless lineup?
SmithnCompany - December 22, 2009
If...
Lowe pitches better than last year (which he probably will)
Vasquez struggles in NY (which he almost certainly will)
and the two young arms show promise
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
Nope…we’ve lost every trade ever.
Smoltz's Beard - December 22, 2009
LaRoche for Kotchman?
Church for Francoeur?
Todd Redmond for Tyler Yates?
Infante AND Ohman for Ascancio?
I guess I could keep going, but that’s just the last two years.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Michael, are you suggesting that some our fellow TCers’ negative reactions are a bit extreme?
fandave - December 22, 2009
I didn’t even recognize it was his post without the subject line
bpk228480 - December 22, 2009
I couldn't think of one?
Maybe…
Wrong.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
at least he's timely with his critique
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
I'm not even suggesting it...
Saying it. ;)
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
and this
+1
ROBravo - December 22, 2009
this
+1
ROBravo - December 22, 2009
Ho-Ram for Soriano
hurts just to type that.
Omerta - December 22, 2009
Now we're in more trouble
We need the power bat even more now that Lowe will still be here serving ’em up to Howard and co.
JD-ATL - December 22, 2009
You got it.
Ryan Howard vs. Derek Lowe: 4-25, 2 HR, 4 RBI, 2 BB, 5 K. That’s a slash line of .160/.222/.200/.422. Add that to his 2-0 and 1.37 ERA with 13 Ks and 3 BB in three starts against Philly, and I’ll take what he’s serving.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
that may be true,
but I’m more concerned with all the OTHER performances we got from Lowe. Our problem wasn’t our performance against the Phills, but against other squads, and Lowe was simply not very good after…what? June or so last year? I am so mad at this franchise right now…well, namely FW.
So now we lose our best pitcher from last year AND non-tender KJ when we have NO depth @ the middle infield positions. What’s next…moving Brian McCann because David Ross had a higher HR/AB ratio?
Jareth Cutestory - December 22, 2009
Hey, I wasn't responding to his overall performance (which, yes, left something to be desired...)
Just the complaint that he was bad against Howard and the Phils. And no, I don’t think we need to move McCann because he’s under a reasonable contract at a position that’s not overloaded. Neither Lowe nor Vazquez can say that.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
I'm sure we're on the same page here
I just REALLY hope Derek bounces back. Yes, he had 15 wins, but he had a pretty righteous run support.
Man, I’ll miss Javy. He won’t be as good in pinstripes as he was for us, but I think he would have had a similar year for us as he had last year, and now we don’t have that guaranteed quality start.
Jareth Cutestory - December 22, 2009
Look at it this way guys.
Tyler Flowers, Jon Gilmore, Brent Lillibridge, and Santos Rodriguez for Melky Cabrera and Mike Dunn.
Sounds like a fantastic deal to me!
bigjoe - December 22, 2009
Are you telling me Wren got ripped off in the end?
Now that is just nonsense…….lol
SmithnCompany - December 22, 2009
You also have to add in Vizcaino and a year of Vazquez. It’s a lot more even after that, particularly considering that Lillibridge has pretty much no value now and Gilmore may or may not be a total bust.
cbwilk - December 22, 2009
And we got a pretty dominant year of Vasquez...
who likely goes backward in New York, and if we work a deal including a current starter next winter, and if this move didn’t upset him too much could be had as a cheaper FA option.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
he may go "backward" in NY
because he’s pitching in the AL again, in which it is tougher to win games. He probably would have had a similar year for us.
Jareth Cutestory - December 22, 2009
Agree he would pitch much better in ATL than NY...
park factors and league including among the reasons why.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
Might have.
Probably’s probably stretching after a career year across the board.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
probably true
but I guess we will never know!
Jareth Cutestory - December 22, 2009
Stats
in 2009, Melky hit 13 home runs with 68 total RBIs. Jeez, if that’s all we were looking for, might as well have kept that Jeff guy…
first time caller - December 22, 2009
and that’s playing half his games in Williamsport.
bpk228480 - December 22, 2009
He had a .142 ISO last year.
Thats a career high.
FUCK. MY. LIFE.
bigjoe - December 22, 2009
yeah in a launch pad
where Damon hit 28 HRs
a hay - December 22, 2009
Maybe, just maybe
we all think a lot more of Javy than professional baseball people do.
That said, I would have thought we could have gotten more for him.
blairblink - December 22, 2009
been shopping for three weeks. Seems by now Wren would know what the market is for either pitcher. This might have been the best available option.
kalesi - December 22, 2009
Let's Wait and See
Vazquez came to the Braves with some question marks. More question makrs than did Lowe. 2009 may have been a strange year for both. Braves still have a fine rotation.
Before we crap all over this trade, let’s just wait and see.
kalesi - December 22, 2009
I don’t think we need any time to think this one over.
Isolated, the Yankees got at least double the value in this trade than we did. We should’ve been able to extract a hell of a lot more value from Vazquez…this is the kind of deal I would expect from Lowe.
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
Basically, the Yankees got one fantastic pitcher for basically NOTHING.
proeye - December 22, 2009
the Yankees had him before...
he wasn’t “fantastic” then.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
We can only rate this according to what we had. Maybe he will tank. But he performed GREAT for us and he may have performed like he did again in 2010. If the fails in New York because of the environment, that doesn’t help the Braves. He may very well fall flat on his face there because of past performance in the American League. Still doesn’t excuse getting crap back for him.
proeye - December 22, 2009
To only look at this from our perspective...
we need to know what other offers Frank Wren had involving Lowe or Vasquez.. That is information we don’t have, so a lot of people are assuming things based on retarded rosterbation, like Lowe for Swisher straight up with no money changing hands, and blasting Wren with incomplete information.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
One year does not fantastic a pitcher make.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
agreed.
i’ve been sitting here saying..lowe can actually improve upon last year..and vazquez can’t..he played his best year of his career and more than likely won’t have another.
SidKotchman - December 22, 2009
Factor in also that Vazquez has one year left under contract. You are paying Lowe a lot of money, but you have him for three more years. Vazquez you likely can’t afford next year anyway.
kalesi - December 22, 2009
Geez, that’s an odd twist… For the longest time we have been talking about the reverse…
proeye - December 22, 2009
excellent point.
fandave - December 22, 2009
Uh, no, that’s not how it works. Even if we get Gonzalez back because of the salary dump, it doesn’t excuse the TRADE ITSELF.
Don’t consider anything else. You have to rate this on the players involved. Period.
proeye - December 22, 2009
I was pissed when I heard the Braves traded Edgar Renterria (who had a great year) for two minor leaguers I’d never heard of.
I mean, really, how may “terrible” trades have the Braves ever made? You have one of the best front offices and scouting groups in baseball. I learned a long time ago that these guys know more about baseball than any of us ever will. Just let it ride and see what happens.
kalesi - December 22, 2009
this this this and this
Please this and +100000000000 to the nth power
ROBravo - December 22, 2009
in a lot of those games, against the Mets, Orioles, and Phillies are three i really remember Lowe looked down right confused out there it seemed to be more than a mechanical issue that can be fixed in an off season, those starts seemed to have a Francouerian affect on his psyche
JD-ATL - December 22, 2009
If you ask me, Lowe needs another pitch. I’d like to see him throw a change up. Just taking a bit off that sinker will really throw guys off.
proeye - December 22, 2009
You mean the pitch he's thrown 10% of the time in his career?
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
My thoughts as well.
KoKo the Monkey (T-Bone) - December 22, 2009
Arodys Vizcaino’s stats look quite good. He could be a Neftali Feliz type throw in.
heapofoatmeal - December 22, 2009
Yes, there looks to be a LOT of talent there. He may bounce up into our top-5 prospects, but he doesn’t help us for several more years.
gondeee - December 22, 2009
Exactly. This is Bobby’s last year…we have (had) the staff to dominate, we needed help NOW. And we get fucking Melky Cabrera. Unbelieveable.
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
Unless we flip him or another of our pitching prospects for something nice...
Easier to do that with more depth.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
This.
I think it would make sense for the Braves to trade Melky to someone else for a bigger outfield bat. He really doesn’t have a place on the Braves, unless the Braves want to move McLouth to left field and play Melky in center.
blindsided789 - December 22, 2009
So does this mean Nate moves to left? If so that can only help his health come late season…
AirHawksnumberonefan - December 22, 2009
The sad part is, McLouth is probably the better defender. If THE MELKMAN played center like Franklin Gutierrez, we could talk. But he doesn’t.
bigjoe - December 22, 2009
I think if we had gotten Gardner instead of Cabrera, the deal would still look lopsided.
SmithnCompany - December 22, 2009
I’m thinking this is an extremely dubious assertion.
fandave - December 22, 2009
solves outfield issue..
now we have roughly 9.5-10 million to get a 1st base bat.
SidKotchman - December 22, 2009
YAY
Now we can go get the "great’ Branyan…..
SmithnCompany - December 22, 2009
Hey, we can bring back Mr Second Half!
bigjoe - December 22, 2009
I have goosebumps, what to do?
SmithnCompany - December 22, 2009
MF
If this was a salary dump to sign LaRoche, I fucking quit. Seriously I quit.
Mark Lempke - December 22, 2009
Terrible deal
… unless we flip Melky, Dunn (who was originally part of the Granderson deal) somewhere else for a slugger?
I’d swap Cabreras with Detroit.
playertobenamedlate - December 22, 2009
Cubs are still looking for a center fielder as well as the Royals. At least we can always get the better part of a deal with the Royals. Are the Tigers already gonna play Jackson or would they be interested in Cabrera?
Dutch Braves Fan - December 22, 2009
you mean
get some of our own players back
SidKotchman - December 22, 2009
Not good...
We should have definetly gotten more for Javy. No doubt, why would you trade your best pitcher last year and not get the power hitter you want? Even if you sign whoever is left out there with the money, you still lost your best starter last year. This probably means we will resign LaRoche now for a one year contract till Freeman is ready.
Gjmoody - December 22, 2009 via mobile
Javy? Noooooo!!!!!!!!!
(face palm)
Chief Noc-A-Homa - December 22, 2009
And another thing…why would the Yankees want Javy back? They know he hated it there and his performance suffered. I don’t get it.
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
Cabrera’s got a lower career ISO & OPS than Francoeur. Think about that for a minute, folks.
bigjoe - December 22, 2009
Are we hitting him 5th or 6th?...
making him the face of the franchise? So comparing him to French is a useless discussion.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
No
But instead we’re relying on a starting pitcher who has already spoke his mind about the management that he works for currently.
SmithnCompany - December 22, 2009
In a heated moment...
I’d assume that can be fixed by spring. Lowe, Hanson, Hudson, Kawakami, Jurrjens, isn’t a bad rotation.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
It's not a bad rotation
But when it could of been Javy, Hanson, JJ, Huddy and Kenshin, it’s definitely a downgrade. So much imo, that I think our rotation is just average right now and that’s not good when that was suppose to be the team’s strength.
SmithnCompany - December 22, 2009
Disagree on that being "just average"
especially if Lowe rebounds, and the other 4 pitch as effectively as they did last year.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
Just average?
Ha. At worst, that’s two #2s (Hanson, Jurrjens) and three #3s (Hudson, Lowe, Kawakami.) At best, it’s a couple of #1s (Hanson, Jurrjens), a couple #2s (Hudson, Lowe) and a #3 (Kawakami.)
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
If any Brave's fan has to think about that
Then they also probably think this deal is good for ATL.
SmithnCompany - December 22, 2009
And if FW could have clicked his heels three times
and magically conjured up a ML team that would have taken Lowe and his $45M contract and given us back a top prospect or a middle of the lineup big bat, oh, what a day that would be … we could all stand outside with our mouths open wide … lalalala.
fandave - December 22, 2009
I BET THIS THREAD ENDS UP HAVING THE MOST REPLIES IN THE HISTORY OF TALKING CHOP.
proeye - December 22, 2009
I disagree....
The thread where Frenchy got traded has far more replies than this one ever will.
dragonhawk26 - December 22, 2009
We’ll see…
proeye - December 22, 2009
What a good day…
Gage23 - December 22, 2009
If the A’s are willing to pay $5mil for coco crisp, who is to say what we can flip melky for.
heapofoatmeal - December 22, 2009
It obviously better be worth what we could’ve gotten for Javy, for Wren’s sake.
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
Everyone here seems to have overvalued the career year that javy had. He has a history of being league average, he was signed for 1 year, and the trade market really isnt there this year.
heapofoatmeal - December 22, 2009
If this is all we could get then his value is much much higher actually pitching for us rather than being traded.
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
This, a billion times over.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
I'm trying to rationalize this, and I just can't
golfballs03 - December 22, 2009
There’s no way man… Salary dump all the way…
proeye - December 22, 2009
Needed the salary freed up...
and no other offers were better. Rationalizing done.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
But at the same time… Jesus, man, you know teams NEED pitching. Why could we not have gotten more for Vasquez??? It’s truly shocking.
Halladay gets the farm for him but Vasquez gets crap??? I don’t get it. I realize they are not exactly the same but Vasquez did put together a pretty good year and you would think that a team would have paid more.
APPARENTLY NOT. Not arguing that Wren is stupid—just shocked that this is all we could get.
proeye - December 22, 2009
Vazquez was solid through September in a penant race last year what meaningful inning has Halladay pitched past May?
JD-ATL - December 22, 2009
And I felt the same on Soriano...
but apparently, this is all we could get. Shocking or not, so be it.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
I swear you like to argue devil’s advocate every time…
proeye - December 22, 2009
could be.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
he’s a one year rental for any team that couldn’t afford to re-sign him to a 3-4 year deal at FA rates after next season and he had a NTC as to west coast teams. And we certainly couldn’t trade him to the Phillies or the Mets.
fandave - December 22, 2009
uuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhh
fuck
atl192485 - December 22, 2009
this
nuftjedi - December 22, 2009
Trying to close the bold
Try
gondeee - December 22, 2009
FRANK I HOPE YOUR READING THIS THREAD!
McCannsMuscle - December 22, 2009
nice prospects. love Arodys Vizcaino. however, as people are noting, melky is junk. i’ll reserve scrutinizing judgment for the end of the offseason — obviously the big bat is still out there.
brndn - December 22, 2009
And let's not forget
how pissed Derek Lowe is for basically being ignored for the last month. Now he’s going to be part of the rotation.
blairblink - December 22, 2009
Yeah, he’s irked as he should be…but he’s a professional, and one who probably wants another contract after this one is up. He’ll man up and perform.
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
The comments Lowe made mean nothing. It was frustration pure and simple. He’s not stupid and he knows the team needed to dump salary. Just frustrated that he was targeted.
proeye - December 22, 2009
Yea. Lowe can suck it the fuck up. If he pitched like he got paid last season this wouldn’t be a problem.
McCann and McWill - December 22, 2009
Who cares?
He’s being paid $15 mil to do a job. One would assume he will.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Trying to close the bold
again
gondeee - December 22, 2009
DAMMIT
gondeee - December 22, 2009
Is there a silverlining?
Okay, now that we dumped salary…
Let’s see what transpires in the next couple of days… Who knows what’s going to happen, but I would not be surprised to see us pick up Nady. That’s not much in return for dumping $11.5 million.
Could we see a big trade involving Melky? Turn this guy around and dump him on someone else? Hah, doubt it.
proeye - December 22, 2009
I love Javy, but the only silver lining I could think of was maybe Javy has a bad year.
McCann and McWill - December 22, 2009
I think now that he’s on to the NYY he’s going to have a subpar year because he HATED it there. He’s a comfort pitcher and this takes him outside of his comfort zone. I feel sorry for the guy.
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
Yeah, agreed. He may end up having a bad year. But that doesn’t mean he couldn’t have had another GREAT year for us.
So again, unless we get something GREAT in return for dumping the salary, it’s going to make me sick for years to come. That is unless Vasquez ends up with surgery in spring training. ;-)
proeye - December 22, 2009
So wait, we get Melky out of the 3 outfielders they have to trade. Not Swish, not Gardner, we end up with Melky. With Gardner we could actually steal a base or something. Ridiculous.
McCann and McWill - December 22, 2009
ugh
Chief Noc-A-Homa - December 22, 2009
I'm officially depressed
This is the WORST news I could possibly get before Christmas….(well outside of my regular life, haha).
SmithnCompany - December 22, 2009
everyone keeps saying
that we have $$ to spend on a 1B or OF. Who? There aren’t really any wonderful FA options out there and trading for someone good requires dumping current assets. It’s not like the Pads are gunna trade us A-Gon for Melky straight up.
MLT - December 22, 2009
Pick a combo...
Troy Glaus, Carlos Delgado, Russell Branyan, Adam LaRoche, Xavier Nady, Ryan Garko, Mike Jacobs, Eric Hinske, Jonny Gomes, etc. Some options are better than others, more expensive than others, but we have plenty of options, including a prospect deal for a 1B, perhaps including Melky or any recently acquired piece.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
Be nice if we could get someone like Adam Dunn for nothing.
Son of a…
proeye - December 22, 2009
Hey we get 500,000 dollars sent to us too.
You guys no what that means?!?! PIZZA PARTY.
Someone invite Pujols.
McCann and McWill - December 22, 2009
I updated the story:
[UPDATE 10:30am] Another update from DOB, shedding more light on the decision to move Vazquez vs. Lowe:
I’m told the Braves exhausted efforts to trade Lowe and didn’t think they’d be able to deal him now or later without eating a chunk of the contract. Thus, they reluctantly returned to moving Vazquez, knowing they could get plenty for him. Which they apparently are from the Yankees.
I kind of figured this was the case. Three years left on Lowe’s deal at $15 million per is a albatross of a contract to try and move.
gondeee - December 22, 2009
Yeah, I just figured Frank could hypnotize somebody or something.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - December 22, 2009
Maybe a Jedi Mind Trick.
“This is not the pitcher you are look for (waves hand)”
McCann and McWill - December 22, 2009
lol. roight.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - December 22, 2009
“Thus, they reluctantly returned to moving Vazquez, knowing they could get plenty for him. Which they apparently are from the Yankees.”
Very non sequitur of you, regarding the ‘get plenty for him’ part.
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
Yeah, they got PLENTY for Vazquez.
bigjoe - December 22, 2009
I'm not totally down on this trade...
But I would hardly suggest we really got “plenty.”
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
finally we can agree on something
SmithnCompany - December 22, 2009
I'm gonna laugh
When Wren signs Holliday or Bay with our new freed-up salary and everyone jumps back on the Frank Wren-bandwagon. There’s a reason he’s a General Manager and we aren’t… let him do his job.
BigG1392 - December 22, 2009
Were not mad about what he is gonna do with the money, but even you have to be slightly irritated that this is what we got for Javy.
McCann and McWill - December 22, 2009
Yeah, I just wanted Javy to stick around. Not only was he the shit, and could bunt, but he seemed to be pulling Yunel towards maturity.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - December 22, 2009
How do you figure?
Why would you credit Vazquez for that?
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
He and Yunel were always hanging out in the dugout. Always talking it up. It was like watching a kid hanging out with an older, wiser kid.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - December 22, 2009
Exactly. You can’t evaluate one trade without context. The offseason is a process with each transaction just one part of the whole thing.
Sweatsack - December 22, 2009
even if we dumped Lowe we wouldn’t have the money for Bay or Holliday, especially since we need a first baseman as well.
JD-ATL - December 22, 2009
Ren already made it clear we will not be in the running for either.
MattDiazFanClub - December 22, 2009
That was eight figures in payroll ago.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Verdict Still out for me
Okay, so maybe Mekly isn’t what we wanted, but we got $10 million back in this deal. From what I had been hearing prior to this trade we have somewhere in the 5-7 million dollar range to spend on the OF and 1B before any trades. So doesn’t this mean that we have 15-17 million to spend now on Free Agents. Can Melky play 1B? Does anybody know anything about whether he has before, in the minors or majors? Could we shove him at 1B for a year to wait on Freeman and then give Bay or Holliday 15 mill per? That would make sense to me if my numbers are correct. Or we could have Diaz play 1B and Melky play LF. Anybody got anythign on the available $$$ total left?
michaelcooksey - December 22, 2009
Come on, now.
That bat at 1B? Ugh.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Even the forum is pissed. It’s like, “ALL BOLD, DAMN IT!!!!!!”
Chief Noc-A-Homa - December 22, 2009
lol, I see now.
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
I’d laugh if I wasn’t fuming. ok, I laughed a little.
Lizziebeth - December 22, 2009
Oops
It’s going to be an awkward spring for Derek Lowe.
I wonder how long it will take the trainers to remove his foot from his mouth?
Sweatsack - December 22, 2009
Nice one
I would think a lot of other teams would have given up more to get Vazquez alone, not even including Logan. I mean seriously, how can a pitcher get 4th in Cy Yong and then get flipped for Cabera? Ridiculous.
MattDiazFanClub - December 22, 2009
This is hard for me to say, but, Big Picture. More moolah. More prospects.
le sigh
Chief Noc-A-Homa - December 22, 2009
I think part of our problem with trading either one of these two ended up being that teams knew we had to get rid of one to fill voids and thus that put us at a disadvantage in trade negotiations…Sux
michaelcooksey - December 22, 2009
Because career years are an aberration.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Wouldn’t it be ironic if Lowe bounced back next year?
Something to hope for. He’s a competitor, and I’m sure he feels like he has something to prove now.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - December 22, 2009
It's not ironic,...
it’s actually expected he’ll pitch better.
And the Vizcaino kid in the deal seems like a good one.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
Summing up the Braves' moves
We sign a 39 year old closer coming off of injury for the amount being paid to Soriano.
We cut our fourth outfielder, who we traded for last season. We then swap out best LHRP for a cheaper rookie and trade our ace for a prospect and an outfielder marginally better than either of the right fielders we have either traded or cut. We’ve also upset our 2009 opening day starter and not offered arbitration to our previous first baseman, leaving Glenn Hubbard to man the bag.
All the while, missing out on other FAs and trade targets.
Wonderful. I have defended Wren over and over, but this is tough.
playertobenamedlate - December 22, 2009
We couldn't trade Lowe...
So Vazquez had to go. I’m not sure what people were expecting.
mdhenshaw - December 22, 2009
What do you mean man? We really need six starting pitchers.
Sweatsack - December 22, 2009
I highly doubt this move was to conceded next year to rebuild
BeantownVol - December 22, 2009
It certainly wasn’t a move forward, unless Wren has some amazing plan to score a worthy OF or 1B.
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
I agree, but you know he had to make so room in some way.
BeantownVol - December 22, 2009
The plan from the beginning – at least plan A – was to dump a pitcher’s salary (Lowe’s or Vazquez’s, one or the other) to maximize the opportunity to acquire a big bat. There was no market for Lowe.
So, the plan seems on track.
Now, back to the regularly scheduled wailing, bitching and moaning …
fandave - December 22, 2009
this
and i lolled
ROBravo - December 22, 2009
whats funny is the Yankees comments on MLB.com, they feel like they got jobbed, the grass is always greener…
JD-ATL - December 22, 2009
Fans always think their players are worth more than market price.
mdhenshaw - December 22, 2009
because they remember how Vasquez looked...
the last time they had him,
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
Haha, this.
Smoltz's Beard - December 22, 2009
How would you rank the OFs?
McLouth > Diaz > Melky > Garrett > Frenchy > Church?
That could be one way to look at a minor upgrade in the outfield. Unless you think any of those guys are better than Melky
KoKo the Monkey (T-Bone) - December 22, 2009
Well, take Garrett out. Take Frenchy out. Take Church out. Plug in B “Swagga” Jones….
Chief Noc-A-Homa - December 22, 2009
yeah, I know they’re not on the roster anymore if that’s what you mean. just trying to compare how our outfield might look compared to last year when you include this trade. forgot about swagga
KoKo the Monkey (T-Bone) - December 22, 2009
And he's at the bottom of the list.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Goddamn you people are so fickle
Yeah this move sucks on the surface, but let’s see what else Frankie has up his sleeve. The oscillation between Frank RULZ and Frank SUX here is the craziest.
No one loved Javy more then me, but I am just going to choose to have faith that this is a precursor to a major move. Frank Wren isn’t stupid, Javy was one of the 5 best pitchers in baseball last year. There has to be a next move.
If we go into camp like this, then we can start calling for heads.
Sid Bream's Moustache - December 22, 2009
THIS.
BigG1392 - December 22, 2009
I hate this trade, but I’m not saying I hate Wren yet (although the moves this offseason have been very poor). My faith in his ability to get the job done has been reduced, for whatever that’s worth.
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
It’s not even oscillation. There are a select group of posters you never see unless something they hate happens. They don’t come on here and post in the good times, they only come by to write “Wren Sucks”.
cbwilk - December 22, 2009
Fizzbot is the president of that club.
justincredubil02 - December 22, 2009
It'll be interesting to see the reaction...
if we can add a pair of potential power bats for 1B by the new year with the money now freed up.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
I don’t think anything else is gonna happen by the New Year. So some folks will have shitty Xmases and New Years. I’m not exactly jumping for joy over the trade, but I’m adult enough to merit my emotional reaction with a logical one and wait a bit, rather than freaking out like a three year old the second I hear the news.
cbwilk - December 22, 2009
XMAS IS RUINED!!!
but yea, I’m down with waiting. Just a little disappointed.
McCann and McWill - December 22, 2009
Bobby said a while ago how we had a bat lined up...
perhaps it was Glaus, Delgado, LaRoche, or whoever they had in mind, but we were just waiting on the money to clear up. I now the time of the year and all usually means quiet, but I get the feeling we wanted salary freed up asap to go ahead with plans that are already in place, and a free agent bat is brought in relatively soon.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
“I
nowknow the time of the year” typo fixedMr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
Good for you.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
I think it’s going to have to be a friggin’ miracle to pull off a great return after this.
Hope it does not involve giving up more of our good minor league talent but what else can we do? Why the hell can’t we trade Melky for Uggla??? Doesn’t ever seem to happen for the Braves. The last time I can remember where it was highway robbery in the Braves favor was when we got Fred McGriff and that was a distant memory…
proeye - December 22, 2009
Why do you want “highway robbery”? That’s a weird way of looking at trading. The ideal baseball trade is one that’s beneficial for both teams. A good example is the Vazquez trade last year. This trade doesn’t look outstanding at the moment, but it does look like a good baseball trade.
cbwilk - December 22, 2009
It was in jest…
proeye - December 22, 2009
Hard to tell, you’re so negative all over the rest of this page, it seemed within the context of your argument.
cbwilk - December 22, 2009
That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. I said Melky for Uggla… Don’t you get it???? It’s a joke. Has nothing to do with being negative Mr. Koolaid.
proeye - December 22, 2009
Didn't sound like a joke
Sounded like you were pissed off and grumpy… which is in line with everything else you’ve said.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
….in every thread you’ve ever commented on.
Yes, thanks KBJ.
cbwilk - December 22, 2009
This trade could be bad for both sides...
considering Vasquez’s lack of success in New York.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
Vaz is a flyball pitcher
In that stadium… I think he’s gonna get rocked.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
Vasquez, Renteria, etc...
we’ve had some pretty lopsided deals in our favor since McGriff, although that one is as good as it gets.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
I'd hardly call the Vazquez deal lopsided.
Flowers is going to stick for years as an ML hitter. We got one year out of Vaz and whatever comes of this.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Flowers as a DH, what are we gonna do with that?
We got a near Cy Young year from Vasquez (who could even return next year, possibly cheaper), and in return the OF filler (if not more) pre-Heyward/Schafer, another potential big time starter for down the road, and a probable improvement in lefty reliever.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
Once again… taking the other side… doesn’t make for a very good argument…
proeye - December 22, 2009
No, this one is a good argument...
McGriff was a great deal, but we’ve had some swipes since. Jurrjens and Gorys Hernandez (flipped for McLouth) for Renteria. Vasquez for a potentially good DH and some guys who likely never make the bigs. Those two since 2005 alone are some great deals that are very lopsided in our favor.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
Kotch for LaRoche straight up....
that was a GREAT deal. There’s 3 deals that could easily be considered robberies and very lopsided in our favor.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
How is Melky better than Church?
BravesFan - December 22, 2009
He's always healthy enough to play, for one.
A 25-man roster spot held by a guy who waves the white flag three days a week is tough to work around.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Don’t like.
Smoltz's Beard - December 22, 2009
Give Wren a day or two
I think that we need to give FW a day or two to see how this turns out. We need to wait to see what he does with the money. We know from last year that all the pitching in the world couldn’t win us close 4-3 games. Its more about balance. The teams from the 90’s always had a bopper that hit 35 home runs, Gant, Justice, McGriff, Justice, Chipper, Andruw, all these guys could come up and tie or win a ball game in one swing of the bat. We had nobody that could do that and that is why we lost the close games last year. We need it again. If FW can do that from this trade I don’t see how we’ll be worse. Jurrjens is gonna get better, Hanson will get better, Lowe can only get better, KK can only get better and I expect a big year out of Hudson. If we can get a bat then we should be solid.
michaelcooksey - December 22, 2009
Jurrjens is gonna get better, Hanson will get better, Lowe can only get better, KK can only get better and I expect a big year out of Hudson.
thats pretty fucking ignorant, they all could have a set back…
Hcgadawgs - December 22, 2009
To each his own I guess, but in the overall progression of young pitchers i guess ASSuming that Jurrjens and Hanson get better would be a stretch. Then again before last season began expecting Javy to have the season he had would have been a stretch too. Based on what we got from Hudson last year (virtually nothing), saying that we’d get more this year I guess if pretty “fucking ignorant as well”. Then again, maybe I’m not the ignorant one…
michaelcooksey - December 22, 2009
Tommy Hanson just about has to have a set back even if it’s just a half step, thats just the way of it when breaking in to the league.
JD-ATL - December 22, 2009
Kawakami "can only get better"
Wow…that seems like a bit of a stretch for a 34-year-old who pitched pretty darned well last year.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
I was mainly referring to record and endurance wise. I know he had a pretty damned good ERA for his 1st year in the states, but the problem was that he couldn’t pitch too late in games.
michaelcooksey - December 22, 2009
I somehow don't see his stamina improving at his age.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Everyone calm down
1. Melky is just filler: He is a nice average overall player with no glaring holes in his game. If he was all we got I would be superpissed.
2. The real prize in this deal is Vizcaino. He recieved a four star grade (the same grade Freeman recieved last year) from BP and ranked him their #2 overall prospect. He is only 18 but has heat that is only projected to get hotter, a plus curve, and a change. This is a Teheran type level of upside starter.
3. I don’t know too much about Dunn but I know he has a great slider and is a LHP.
In all, we tried to trade Lowe (obviously) we could’t so we got as much value as we could for ONE YEAR of Vazquez while not paying any of his salary.
bbxxj - December 22, 2009
Thanks for the info. #2 and #3 intrigue me…
Chief Noc-A-Homa - December 22, 2009
Dunn held lefties to around a .150 last year at AAA.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
I'm here for you...
sddbaker - December 22, 2009
Lol nice
BeantownVol - December 22, 2009
Hey Justin!
I heard we traded Vazquez for Dunn!!!!
sddbaker - December 22, 2009
hahahaha….nice!
justincredubil02 - December 22, 2009
+1
Smoltz's Beard - December 22, 2009
FUCKIN SUCK MY TITS AND CALL ME A BITCH
What the fuck. Where’s Jeff Blauser when you need him.
secondfh - December 22, 2009
slurp slurp, bitch
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
hmmm same thing i said about the chip news
Slee - December 22, 2009
Chip calling games next year is much worse news than this trade, IMO.
KoKo the Monkey (T-Bone) - December 22, 2009
I like Chip ok. There. I said it. Whatever little credibility I had is now gone.
Thank you. Come again.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - December 22, 2009
THAT'S A STRONG OPINION! I COULDN'T AGREE MORE!
Caught. I don’t agree at all.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
I like Chip too. You are not alone.
cbwilk - December 22, 2009
Word and a half.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
+1 million
jwrocks - December 22, 2009
It's fine.
I think we got more for Vazquez than we did for Millwood while primarily being in the same situation.
If we be honest with ourselves we knew we weren’t trading Lowe. Lowe is NOT a bad pitcher, and I think we’ll come out ahead on this deal.
I’d rather have Lowe and a first baseman than Vaz + 1/2 of Lowe’s salary and trash on first.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
Plus, if we were to move Lowe, we would likely have to eat close to four a year and so we are saving just about the same amount with a MUCH higher return.
I HATE seeing Javy go but I like the return.
bbxxj - December 22, 2009
I think that is how you have to look at this deal. It is probably the best he could do.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
Hmm…good take on the situation.
Smoltz's Beard - December 22, 2009
I would have prefered to start the season with all the starters than to trade Vazquez.
Wren better be on the phone working out a deal to land Adrian Gonzalez.
So let me get this straight. The Braves just traded their ace for a backup OF and another pitching prospect.
facepalm
Currently, I’m hating this deal. Wren’s been good, so I’ll try and have patience and just vent my frustration on Talk Chop. Better to get it out than let if fester.
Sparhawk - December 22, 2009
If Wren gets Gonzalez to play first…………(passes out)
Chief Noc-A-Homa - December 22, 2009
+1
BeantownVol - December 22, 2009
-1
No, it would not be good because we would not longer have a minor league system… ;-)
proeye - December 22, 2009
If Wren could somehow manage to ship Cabrera and the new pitching prospect as part of the deal…that would save some of the Braves minor league system.
Sparhawk - December 22, 2009
Isn't going to happen.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
depends on what the trade is...
what if they’d foolishly take Melky, Freeman, Robinson Lopez and one of our other MLB ready arms not named Hanson, Kimbrel, or Jurrjens.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
HAH! Yeah riiiiight… They don’t have to get rid of Gonzales which is why we WOULD have to give up a ton.
proeye - December 22, 2009
And tons of payroll space.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Teaser Time...
ESPN insiders get to read the rest, but I’m putting 2 and 2 together just to fuel the fire (all of these now on espn.com):
carpengui - December 22, 2009
4/60 is as high as I would go. NO fifth year please or make it a team option with a nice buyout.
bbxxj - December 22, 2009
No no no please no Jason Bay! His knees will give out year #2!
McCannsMuscle - December 22, 2009
Stark even said Bay is too much for Braves
Who aren’t looking to pay 15 mil/year.
danielduello - December 22, 2009
These little money whores need to chill the hell out. Bump Holliday, Bay, Boras, and all their ilk(.)
You’re not THAT fucking good. You have to catch those pop-ups, Holliday.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - December 22, 2009
And where would we put him?...
Has he ever played 1st? Cabrera, Diaz, McLouth, Heyward, and Schafer all seem better options defensively in the OF than Bay.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
Yeah, he would have to agree to play 1B. But frankly, it’s not that difficult of a position to play given that a lot of players have gone there to die…
Sure you can benefit by having a stellar glove there but it’s not a requirement. Just have to be able to move a little. Catching the ball is 95% of the work.
proeye - December 22, 2009
from the insider piece
atl192485 - December 22, 2009
Jason Stark seems like an idiot here.
Why get another OF for big money when we don’t have anyone who plays first on our roster?
cavebird - December 22, 2009
So help me, if we sign Damon…
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
THIS
please Wren, stay the GM of last year, and not the one from Baltimore.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
What bat?
The problem is I don’t know where the bat we need is going to come from? Bay and Holiday are too expensive. Damon is not a big bat. Guerrero can’t move anymore in the outfield. The only choice is to trade for a bat…
danielduello - December 22, 2009
I agree. No way I want the Braves to over pay just to get Bay or Holliday. Not worth it in my opinion.
Sparhawk - December 22, 2009
Damon isn’t even an option now. There’s nothing he does that Melky Cabrera doesn’t for a lot less.
cbwilk - December 22, 2009
Damon has the ability to hit for some power, plus he’s got much better plate discipline. Not advocating signing him, but he’s much better than Melky offensively.
Smoltz's Beard - December 22, 2009
He’s better, mostly cause he’s a decade older and thus more experienced. I thought it was funny that Damon was one of Cabrera’s most similar by age on baseball-reference.
And we both know Damon is likely to play much worse away from that Yankee stadium.
cbwilk - December 22, 2009
We are up to 255 comments and it’s only been 1 hour. How far will this go? Hummmmmm….
proeye - December 22, 2009
Bay and Holliday aren't coming, guys
There is no place for them to play!
This is IT! We sign LaRoche, and these are your 2010 Atlanta Braves. Help me with the starting lineup:
McLouth – RF
Prado – 2B
Chipper – 3B
LaRoche – 1B
McCann – C
Escobar – SS
Diaz – LF
Cabrera – CF
Lowe – P
???
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
No way Lowe is the opening day pitcher
danielduello - December 22, 2009
AGREED!
McCannsMuscle - December 22, 2009
Disagreed!
We’ll have to wait and see, but it might be a way to bring Lowe around that we need him, more than ever, to be the ace we are paying him to be.
Consider that his fruit basket.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
Still have Bobby
To ease the way for Lowe. I’m not worried about that. And Lowe knows he disappointed in the second half. I think he was venting some of that frustration in reacting to the trade talk. He doesn’t need a fruit basket. Pencil in Huddy.
danielduello - December 22, 2009
Why not?
It’s exactly the kind of thing Cox would do for a vet to help smooth things over. Not that it will happen (Huddy’s the true sentimental pick), but it certainly could.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Lowe or Hudson, I'd guarantee barring injury
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
Cabrera would play RF, he has a good arm, McLouth has a wet noodle.
cbwilk - December 22, 2009
I just threw up……..AGAIN!
McCannsMuscle - December 22, 2009
you aren’t the only one.
Sparhawk - December 22, 2009
McLouth is a lot of things… a good lead-off hitter is not one of them.
mdhenshaw - December 22, 2009
Melky? Diaz?
We don’t really have a prototypical lead off man on the roster.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
Infante is probly the best “lead-off” guy we have.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - December 22, 2009
But we know he'll never get on the field again with the great Martin Prado at 2B.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
He'll play 20-30 games at Third
You know Chipper isn’t making it the whole seasson
danielduello - December 22, 2009
I know.
Just playing with the Odarp serohw.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
If only the NL had the DH. (can’t believe I just typed that)
Infante – 3rd
Prado – 2nd
Chipper – DH
Chief Noc-A-Homa - December 22, 2009
Someone PLEASE POST SCOUTING REPORT ON THE PITCHING PROSPECT
Not just a crappy one, one from insider please.
fizzbot - December 22, 2009
ajcbraves
Vizcaino, who turned 19 in November, was 2-4 with a 2.13 ERA in 10 starts at short-season Class A , with 48 K and 13 walks in 44 innings.
mdhenshaw - December 22, 2009
(Before this year from http://baseball.realgm.com/src_fromtheupperdeck/111/20090323/prospect_report_arodys_vizcaino_new_york_yankees/ )
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
sounds a lot like...
Julio Teheran and Robinson Lopez, who are both top 10 in our system
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
I agree.
Having three guys like that makes for a nice future trade package if you want.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
He gained a few inches, he’s 6’2" 195 now.
cbwilk - December 22, 2009
maybe a little tmi
bpk228480 - December 22, 2009
Nice.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
short one from reading a bunch of them
19 yr old RHP
low to mid 90’s heat with a projection to pack on more velocity.
Plus to plus-plus changup
developing curve
pitching acumen above average for age
So a young starter with a great FB and a plus secondary pitch with a ton of projectablity left. I think he is like Teheran 1b.
bbxxj - December 22, 2009
Here's another thread with lots of info...
http://www.dailysportspages.com/forums/showthread.php?p=878855
And midseason this year:
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
MELKY? REALLY?
I thought if we were moving Javy we would have gotten a legit bat in the outfield or first base. Instead we got a below average outfielder. i honestly kept telling myself we would trade Javy for Adrian Gonzalez and eat some of Javy’s money for the last year. The padres are looking to move money and since Javy only had one year remaining i thought that would be a great deal and Adrian only gets paid 6 mil. I would have been willing to have Adrian for that. This deal with the Yanks Blows….
BravesFanScout - December 22, 2009
We came out with 10 mil to spend. I wouldn’t say it “blows.”
Sorry, Javy. If you couldn’t tell, we all would have taken a bullet for you.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - December 22, 2009
This is what I don’t understand, If we did a similar trade, but insert Lowe and pay $5mill of his contract, don’t we still end up with $10 mill to spend? There’s got to be something more coming with this. FW has to have something up his sleeve and must have known that he needed to act fast on the other move, and working to trade Lowe wouldn’t have happened quick enough. I have faith.
michaelcooksey - December 22, 2009
We're also stuck paying that $5 mil the next two years when he's not on our roster.
We don’t have that problem with Vazquez.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
This. Paying money for players not on a team’s roster is not something most anyone is willing to do.
cbwilk - December 22, 2009
Your first mistake was thinking we would get someone like Adrian Gonzalez for Javy.
Smoltz's Beard - December 22, 2009
I don’t know how to feel.
McCann and McWill - December 22, 2009
I can’t believe we traded Javy…He might not have the same season in NY as he had in 09, but I would bet good money that he would have repeated it in ATL.
We got 500K too? We must be saving up everything we can for somebody expensive, but probably not…
bwellnjonesco - December 22, 2009
What really should piss us all off.....
Is that we could have had Vaz with the money that Wren is now paying Huddy after coming back from TJ.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
I agree.
That’s the move that upsets me.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Yessir
That money would have been so useful
BeantownVol - December 22, 2009
The same could be said of Wagner and his money, rather than Soriano + our first rounder.
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
How?
We’d be paying Soriano or Wagner either way.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
I was referring to the injury situation (both he and Hudson are coming off TJ).
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
And Soriano's hurt every other year.
After his ridiculous overuse last year, what odds would you give me of a “sore elbow” by May.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
We came out ahead in this
We have the same amount of $ AND Cabrera, Dunn (assuming he’s at least as good as Logan), and that “electric” pitching prospect. Do you honestly think that the difference in performance in 2010 between Vaz and Huddy will have more value than those three players?
buzzdeadwax - December 22, 2009
There is nothing good about this.
What does Melky solve. Yes we need a RF, but power bat is much more of a need. Swisher for Javy, and i would be pissed, but not this bad. Why Javy…….Lowe for prospects has such a nice ring to it.
JKowalek - December 22, 2009
He solves the problem of having six starters on the 25-man roster and too much money committed to them.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
I just hope Lowe bounces back
BeantownVol - December 22, 2009
………..from a 15 W season with little run support……..LMFAO. let’s fucking hope so. haha
Chief Noc-A-Homa - December 22, 2009
Swisher for Javy would have pissed you off?
Smoltz's Beard - December 22, 2009
Fuck this.
Frank, I used to really like you. Now, you’re pissing me off.
Jesus Christ.
Scott Coleman - December 22, 2009
I don’t even want Melky. WTF?
TradeAndruw - December 22, 2009
If I had to guess, Frank views the Melk Man as a “piece.”
Chief Noc-A-Homa - December 22, 2009
I think he is a solid Church replacement, but def. not what we need at all…
bwellnjonesco - December 22, 2009
I’m thinking Melky may make Nate a trading piece.
fandave - December 22, 2009
I wanna hit something.
Scott Coleman - December 22, 2009
Smack my bitch up.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - December 22, 2009
Nice Prodigy reference.
ChrisK562 - December 22, 2009
Is there any poor Prodigy reference?
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
It's fine.
Take a couple of deep breaths, count to 10, and try to think about who we can sign with 11.5 free now.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
please tell me who
Jareth Cutestory - December 22, 2009
+1
danielduello - December 22, 2009
LaRoche?
Nady + Glaus?
DeRosa + KJ + Nady?
IDK.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
for $11.5M?
don’t you think that’s a bit optimistic? I’d be happy with getting LaRoche & KJ back, though =)
Jareth Cutestory - December 22, 2009
You could do that with 11.5.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
I agree.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
why?
so we could be a left-handed heavy lineup again?
I’m fine with Roachy. I wouldn’t take KJ back unless its for less than a million or so.
Scott Coleman - December 22, 2009
if we brought back KJ i would sell my tickets, why don’t we just sign KJ, then we can package Hanson, Jurrjens, and Escobar to the Mets for Francouer. Then send Lowe, and Chipper to Seattle for Ryan Langerhans, and where is Kyle Davies these days?…signing KJ is like going out to the trash and finding the sandwich you threw out yesterday to eat for lunch today.
JD-ATL - December 22, 2009
It's no secret that I'm a huge KJ fan,
but putting my bias aside, I think we need someone like KJ for depth purposes. Marteeen is very good, but he’s got a lot of nagging injuries. Omar isn’t an everyday player. Who do we get to play SS/2B if Esco is down for a week and Marteeen is hurting? Diory (or did we move him)? I hope not!
Jareth Cutestory - December 22, 2009
Diory's still around.
But Joe Thurston is probably our guy in the IF. He’s got pro experience at all four.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
i think Omar is capable of filling in at second for a week or two when need be. Also I don’t know why the Braves seem reluctant to use Brooks Conrad as a utility infielder, he was impressive in the time he was called up.
JD-ATL - December 22, 2009
Really?
You were impressed with a 666 OPS?
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
it was a small sample size, you can’t always go off the numbers when that is the case you have to look at the situational hitting. The Braves obviously don’t have the big bat they need the guys to knock in runs and Conrad had his share of clutch hits in the short time he was here
JD-ATL - December 22, 2009
Clutch hits in 5 clutch ABs are a total fluke.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
But KJ at $4MM with the budget apparently THIS tight doesn’t make sense.
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
You're definitely right.
Johnson is awful. He fluked his way into two years as one of the best hitters at his position in baseball.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
not sure if this was sarcasim or not BUT look at the turn around after they rid themselves of KJ and Francouer, no coincidence
JD-ATL - December 22, 2009
The team was better with Johnson starting after he came off the DL than Prado.
No coincidence.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
you sound like Bobby picking favorites, Francoeur had 4 doubles the night we traded him I guess we should get him back to
JD-ATL - December 22, 2009
Plus the fact that they signed a utility infielder in Thurston AND have Mitch Jones with a chance (though a long shot) to make the roster, along with Infante, signing Kelly Johnson would be nothing more than a move to appease his prepubescent female fans.
JD-ATL - December 22, 2009
FYI
I am male and twenty-something!
I heart KJ
Jareth Cutestory - December 22, 2009
I am female...
but am far from prepubescent, and I heart KJ, as well. I don’t even think he’s that cute.
sddbaker - December 22, 2009
Do I?
Because I cited just as relevant an argument as you did.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
You don’t really understand why KJ was let go, do you?
Smoltz's Beard - December 22, 2009
I hope we don't sign anyone
If anything we make a trade where we take on salary. The free agent market is either too expensive or too old.
danielduello - December 22, 2009
Like who?
Mark DeRosa? Adam LaRoche? Bay makes FUGA look like Willie Mays in the OF. Matt Holliday wants a billion dollars. Who else is there? Carlos Delgado? Are we gonna empty the farm for Adrian Gonzalez.
I just don’t get this deal.
Scott Coleman - December 22, 2009
Don't know...
It was supposed to be a calming exercise, but I’m having trouble making the puzzle fit, too.
Makes me want to hit something….
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
sorry, not trying to rant
I’m just pissed. Javy was a personal favorite and has been for years. Him for Melky Cabrera, some LOOGY and a 19 year old? Hell no.
Scott Coleman - December 22, 2009
Someone had to go...
and no one wanted Lowe.
What was he supposed to do?
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
Maybe the Vizcaino kid will become the greatest pitcher ever…then Wren would look like a genius…
bwellnjonesco - December 22, 2009
ranked #2 of Yankees prospects…….pretty good “maybe” there.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - December 22, 2009
being ranked #2 in the Yankees system isn’t all that much to write home about.
Scott Coleman - December 22, 2009
But look at the reports on him...
combine him, Teheran, Lopez, Spruill, Devall, Minor, Ortegano, and the plethora of others in A and rookie ball for us, plus of course Hanson and Jurrjens, and we’ve got a pretty good chance of forming another decade-long top 3 rotation. Not only that, but they’ll be cheaply under club control for several years of that decade.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
Truth.
But he does seem pretty good independent of that.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Yes, he is the real wild card here, but this offseason was supposed to be about this year, with it being Bobby’s last year, Chipper on the downslope, etc. Not that I want to go all for broke, but an 18 year old project is not what I had in mind.
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
We needed another young A arm though…
bwellnjonesco - December 22, 2009
Sarcasm 8-ball reading says...
Reply hazy, try again.
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
Would you have rather picked up a AAA reliever who could have made the starter?
You take the best deal for the present and future. Doing otherwise would be shortsighted and dumb.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Looks like we’ll have to wait at least 4 years to see how this trade turned out. Unless more trades are coming.
Sparhawk - December 22, 2009
I don't even care anymore
We were horrible in 2008. We were good, tho inconsistent, in 2009. This team had the potential to be great in 2010. Right now…we’ll be lucky to catch the Marlins.
I just pray FW has something up his sleeve.
Scott Coleman - December 22, 2009
Is it really windy up on that ledge?
I seriously don’t think it is that bad.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
the way I see it:
Our lineup is still weak as shit (unless Jason Heyward goes crazy next season).
Our rotation is good, but has many questions. Huddy is coming off major arm surgery. Hanson is going into his first full season after throwing the most innings of his life. Jurrjens is fine. DLowe was so damn incosisten last season. KK was good, but also struggled at times and didn’t pitch the whole year.
Our bullpen looks good on paper, but we have a 38 and 40 year old as our 8th and 9th inning guys.
Scott Coleman - December 22, 2009
I’m just happy we have Medlen, I think he is going to be a great long inning/spot starter in case any of those issues arise in the rotation.
bwellnjonesco - December 22, 2009
Agreed.
Although, haven’t we been saying that we’d made the post season with LaRoche, Mclouth and a FUGA upgrade for a whole season??
Well, now we have a chance to prove that theory!
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
Didn't Hudson ALREADY come off of major arm surgery?
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Oh, and those 8th and 9th inning guys were perfectly healthy last year.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
that doesn't mean anything
Huddy was healthy in 2007…and got hurt in 2008.
Just cause you were healthy the year before doesn’t mean anything…
Scott Coleman - December 22, 2009
So why sign anybody?
Soriano and Gonzalez are certainly injury risks in their own right.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Man, you really need to just calm down.
Think of it as a three level chess game. You have the next year, future years and payroll levels.
The grandmaster GM needs to be thinking 3 or 4 moves ahead at each level.
If you don’t appreciate that Frank Wren is proceeding tactically on multiple fronts and intends to make additional moves, you are missing the entire point of this move.
fandave - December 22, 2009
Well we didn’t pick up the big RH bat we needed via our SP surplus, so Wren must have an idea of who he wants FA…
bwellnjonesco - December 22, 2009
If its a free agent, we’re in trouble.
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
I'm just trying to figure out
which FA is worth trading Javier Vazquez for.
Mark DeRosa? Adam LaRoche?
I just dont get it.
Scott Coleman - December 22, 2009
This reminds me alot of a trade that was made a few years ago when we traded away our All-star SS, Edgar Rentaria for some kid named Jurrgjgjgjgjens.
justincredubil02 - December 22, 2009
Reminds me much more of the Millwood trade
When everyone wanted to kill JS.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
Jurrgjgjgjgjens was pretty much ML ready.
bwellnjonesco - December 22, 2009
So is Melky though!! It fits!
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
Has
Any one decent came out of the Yankee minorleague orgainzation in a long time? I sure as hell cant think of too many….. But alot are hyped up. God this was a bad trade
auskip07 - December 22, 2009
How can you say that? We have no idea how these guys will perform.
justincredubil02 - December 22, 2009
Because
I know how Javier Performed last year
auskip07 - December 22, 2009
Do you also know...
How he’ll perform next year?
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
My guess is poorly, since he’s out of his comfort zone mentally (he’s never been really strong in that regard), plus he’s a FB pitcher going to the bandbox called Yankees stadium. Yikes…
Which is why I question the deal for the Yanks too. Lowe would’ve been preferred for me in their case as well.
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
Typical Barner Logic
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
Dude?
Did you even graduate from Alabama or are you a sidewalk fan like most of the losers. Atleast i graduated from the school i pull for
auskip07 - December 22, 2009
Also
i wouldnt have made this trade in my fantasy league would you? from a player to player standpoint bad deal
auskip07 - December 22, 2009
Wait...
Your fantasy league includes rookie-league players? Weird. Any open spots?
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
I think most fantasy leagues have minor leaguers, sometimes A ball guys. They have keeper leagues and all that where it pays to build year after year.
cbwilk - December 22, 2009
Most? I think that's a huge stretch.
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
Auburn sucks.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
fuck you
auskip07 - December 22, 2009
Roll Tide
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
And your moommma!
Go close your barn door. The cows are getting cold.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
Go Big Orange
BeantownVol - December 22, 2009
wooooo
Rocky Top!
sddbaker - December 22, 2009
What bowl you guys going to?
Papa Johns or some shit?
Sit down.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
Chic-Fil-A
VaTech.
We’ll have a kicker next year so you’ll against a team with special teams.
BeantownVol - December 22, 2009
If your coach cared more about his football team that his hair and what came out of his mouth...
I might actually be worried about that.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
Ugh...have you seen Saban's mop.
You’re an idiot
BeantownVol - December 22, 2009
Saban's mop
just proved my point.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
?
nm
BeantownVol - December 22, 2009
But they have that awesome song!
::spews bile on desk at the thought of that awful song::
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
are you referring to...
the BEST COLLEGE FIGHT SONG EVER?
sddbaker - December 22, 2009
Baseball is passionate, but mention college football (specifcally SEC) and the blood flows.
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
Yup.
sharpens blade
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
Just Wow...
I don’t know what else to say. I think I’m going to go sit in the dark and listen to The Cure for awhile. Seriously…. Melky Cabrera!!?!?
AuditDawg - December 22, 2009
I think everyone needs to chill the fuck out. Its not the end of the world. If Wren could have gotten a better return, dont you think he would have? Lets not slit our wrists just yet here
bravesguy311 - December 22, 2009
+1
10-4 - December 22, 2009
I'm calling it...
Jason Bay will be a brave by tommorow
Hcgadawgs - December 22, 2009
Hell no.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
Wren isn’t gonna do some shit like this without a bigger plan..
Hcgadawgs - December 22, 2009
The bigger plan was to free salary.
That is all. :(
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
So he's just going to sit on the cash?
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Nah, he’ll get it in 10s and 20s and make a swimming pool out of it like Ted did back in the day.
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
speaking of
how did scrooge mcduck dive into that giant pile of coins without hurting himself?
bpk228480 - December 22, 2009
It was a cartoon.
In real life, you bounce.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
I hate Launchpad.
TradeAndruw - December 22, 2009
ooo
kind of like a bumbles
bpk228480 - December 22, 2009
Because the awesomeness of the themesong protected him.
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
Ducktales! A-woo-ooh!
cbwilk - December 22, 2009
The one with the "fear cloud" spell was the best
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
No.
He’ll sign a first baseman, but there is no magical trade for AGon or Bay or Holliday signing or any of those things.
It just is what it is.
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
You gots to re-unite the Bucs in the outfield
BeantownVol - December 22, 2009
This is the best Wren could do?
I’m just seeing this deal and I’m floored that this is the best that we could do for a guy that just finished fourth in the Cy Young voting this year, even in a salary dump this is ridiculous. Unless your going after one of the big bats(Holiday or Bay, which we know isn’t happening) what is the point. All this talk of needing a power bat and we trade for Melky, while he isn’t terrible he certainly has little power. sigh Really, just really?
Magoo12218 - December 22, 2009
Didn't you hear? We are going to sign Bay now, in a few weeks..
bwellnjonesco - December 22, 2009
Sure we are *wink,wink*...
Magoo12218 - December 22, 2009
But where the hell do you put him? IB or the outfield??? Hah! Yeah… Okay.
proeye - December 22, 2009
Sarcasm leeks…
I was just referring to (and not responding to) a previous comment above…
bwellnjonesco - December 22, 2009
I think something important is being overlooked here...
The hotness of the Braves is going way down with the loss of Javy…..
and his George Clooney – like good looks. I don’t know what any of these other guys look like, but he’s going to be hard to replace.
sddbaker - December 22, 2009
WTF?
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
And Gonzo too (especially LIzziebeth’s avatar bling).
soup du jour - December 22, 2009
thanks Javy
for one fucking hell of a season. You were great to watch.
Scott Coleman - December 22, 2009
in more ways than one....
sddbaker - December 22, 2009
You and Javy’s picture need a minute?
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
I think they already had one…
bwellnjonesco - December 22, 2009
You do realize....
I am female? Just wondering?
sddbaker - December 22, 2009
Females need minutes, too….
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
Multiple minutes
MatM - December 22, 2009
You do realize he’s a Puerto Rican George Clooney?
bwellnjonesco - December 22, 2009
and?
sddbaker - December 22, 2009
Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
Kelly's Big Johnson - December 22, 2009
And I thought Lizzibeth was the only one. Huh.
I kid though.
Let me see, your avatar is a picture of a cat…yep, you are female. I’ll tell you though, nothing beats early morning breakfast and getting on Fark.com for Caturday.
Caturday and baseball rock.
Sparhawk - December 22, 2009
lmao
It’s always really weird to see what guy girls think is “hawt,” b/c to most of us…..they’re like, dudes.
This one’s for baker, and the ladies…..which is weird though, b/c I always assumed that baker was a dude, and that small, animal was a dog, but if it’s a cat, then, yeah.
The delivery that almost hurts to watch.
~
And speakin’ o’ pics, a little somem else.
All night long.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - December 22, 2009
sigh…I will miss him….
sddbaker - December 22, 2009
sddbaker - December 22, 2009
+1
atl192485 - December 22, 2009
well,
the posting has screeched to a halt.
Jareth Cutestory - December 22, 2009
i think
everyone went to cry / pray to their deity for a miracle
atl192485 - December 22, 2009
it’s like, OMG PITCHFORKS!! MARCH ON WREN’S HOUSE!!
After about 10 minutes we realize that we all have ADD and forget why we were yelling only then to get back to work. I think that’s how it works.
Sparhawk - December 22, 2009
whats this work thing you speak of?
bpk228480 - December 22, 2009
It's what I, for one, should be doing instead of posting on TC.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
I secretly hope that Cabrera’s medicals come back with something bad so the Braves have to cancel the trade.
Sparhawk - December 22, 2009
FanGraphs:
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Wow
This is a significantly better return than what Philadelphia got for Cliff Lee, for instance.
Mr. Sanchez - December 22, 2009
At least the Phillies got Roy Halladay, not Melky.
alligatorimpersonator - December 22, 2009
The Phillies didn't get Halladay for Lee.
You’ll notice Lee isn’t on the Blue Jays.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Frank Wren
Lennox - December 22, 2009
Don't rush to judgement
New guy here but I had to jump in on this one. While I love what Javy did for us this year, I think this deal is not as terrible as most do. Melky will have more success in the NL. I’m not going to pretend like he will hit for any power, but he is what he is- a fast outfielder who plays above average defense and hits for a pretty good average but not much else. A batter leadoff candidate than McClouth in my opinion. One year of Javy for Melky the placeholder, a decent future LOOGY, and a good looking prospect who looks like a pretty good future pitcher. I don’t love the deal. But I understand it.
mj10catchit10 - December 22, 2009
We are up to 539 comments!
proeye - December 22, 2009
People are nuts. I’ll admit I was tempted to believe, but only Jesus could have moved Lowe. This shit was….inevitable.
The return…..hmmm. Yeah. But….potentially big for us long-term. And 500 thou.
Chief Noc-A-Homa - December 22, 2009
I just hope Lowe’s frustration from all this doesn’t spill over into the season…
bwellnjonesco - December 22, 2009
Why would it?
He’s a vet and a pro.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
gotta agree...
He’s not going to let it affect his work.
sddbaker - December 22, 2009
Especially since he makes 15mil
no matter what he does and is 37yo
with clear decline for the last 3 year
a hay - December 22, 2009
So clear that he put the Dodgers on his back down the stretch in '08 and pitched very well for the first half this year.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
I hate that Javy's gone, but you speak in rational truths, as always Chief.
Zeus12888 - December 22, 2009
Got Melky? LOL
ChrisK562 - December 22, 2009
The Melkman delivers!
GoBravesNY - December 22, 2009
But....he was my favorite...
All kidding aside, Wren needs to do something big with that stack of cash he’s now sitting on.
bravos1984 - December 22, 2009
+1. He better have something up his sleve
GoBravesNY - December 22, 2009
LaRouche
is looking for $10 mil a year
a hay - December 22, 2009
I can't believe Wren made this stupid trade!
We better get Bay or Holliday now, to help offset this horrible trade.
deewill23 - December 22, 2009
What is horrible about trading from a position of strength, filling one of our MLB team needs, and also getting a top prospect in the process?
justincredubil02 - December 22, 2009
Do you really think Melky fills our need in the OF? Two different scenarios with slight changes to this deal would make sense to me.
1. Lowe instead of Javy and no Vizcaino
2. Swisher instead of Melky
Unless Wren has something up his sleeve, I think this is going to be bad deal, not horrible as some are suggesting, but for Javy we should have gotten more.
That being said, Vizcaino intrigues me, but this is a team that can win now, he doesn’t help us now. Dunn looks like he could turn in to a solid LH arm in the pen, definitely an upgrade over Logan.
MatM - December 22, 2009
It fills our need for another OFer. It doesn’t fill our need for power, but that can be filled at 1B with this extra money we just cleared.
Vizcaino looks to be a very good pickup, perhaps the centerpiece of the deal as far as Atl is concerned.
I wasn’t listening to Wren and Cashman’s conversation, but I can almost guarantee you that this started with Lowe for Swisher, or at least, that was brought up. Just because it didn’t happen doesn’t mean Wren didn’t try to make it happen.
justincredubil02 - December 22, 2009
oh good that make me much better
Wren: how about Lowe for Swisher
Cashman: no i don’t need a no 4 pitcher, i want an ace, how about Vasquez for, who don’t I need… umm a poor man’s Ryan Church?
Wren: Done
a hay - December 22, 2009
Cute, the way you neglect to include Vizcaiano, the key part of the return.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
So did Neftali Feliz help us "now" two seasons ago?
Just asking.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
Vizcaino
might be Atl Closer in 2012
He will be great, 1 year of Vasqual for 6-7 year of a closer and a poor man’s Ryan Church
is a good deal….. if Vizcaino developes
a hay - December 22, 2009
Yeah?
I’m thinking he might be a top-two starter in 2014. Six to seven years of a top starter is worth a hell of a lot more than one of a starter who could just as easily fall back to his career norms and be no better than above-average.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
So, is Vizcaino our new Hanson?
justincredubil02 - December 22, 2009
Well, he's our new Teheran.
Goldstein said that while Vizcaino isn’t as good, it’s very close.
MichaelProcton - December 22, 2009
I saw where K Law said we basically have 3 #1-#2 ceiling guys in the minor leagues right now…that doesn’t include Hanson or Medlen (obviously) or Minor. Then there is that Jurrjens guy….I love Frank Wren!
justincredubil02 - December 22, 2009
yeah protential ceiling guy
Oliver Perez, Mark Prior, Victor Zambrano, were #1 ceiling guy
a hay - December 23, 2009
Each of them was pretty good at their peak.
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
And actually, no, Zambrano was never a #1 guy.
He wasn’t even on TB’s top prospect list.
MichaelProcton - December 23, 2009
Let's get real!
It would be disasterous if Vazquez had years with us of Smoltz-like quality pitching. He has always been a middle of the pack pitcher who last year had a `career’ year. We gave up some salary, moved one extra pitcher we needed to move, got a player and prospects we needed. This isn’t our last move people. We still need a 1-baseman and we will get a left handed starting pitcher before the season starts. It is coming. Give this some time to register.
BobW - December 23, 2009
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