Talking Chop

We will miss ya, Kelly… standing O for the effort.

He’s one of the best streaky players we’ve ever had.

+1 perhaps the best we ever had

He may be one of the best...

…streaky players we ever had, but he certainly isn’t the best streaky player we ever had. Andruw, take a bow.

I don’t know that he was “streaky.” I’d say he was a great player and then took a turn for the worse. But I felt like he was fairly consistent up until his downfall.

a great player?

No way. Albert Pujols is a great player. Alex Rodriguez is a great player. Hank Aaron was a great player. Kelly Johnson is not even close.

I think he is referring to Andruw

blitzerlover - December 12, 2009 reply

oh okay

i see that now. well then yes, I agree

He was streaky as hell.

Remember he started his best season on a 0-26 or 0-28 slump. I am not talking about his current decline, I am talking about when he was good. He was always crazy streaky—-one week, he couldn’t hit a beach ball and wiffed all week. The next week he bats .500 and is crushing everything. He was the ultimate streaky player.

THIS REALLY SUCKS.

Long live Martin Prado!

When Prado’s July-Sept become the norm, I’d better not hear you complain once.

When Prado tears it up in 2010

I’d better not hear you bitch about how KJ is better.

Fair enough. I think we don’t have to worry about it though.

Assholes are my favorite

jesus dude, chill

Asshole?

How am I an asshole? Because I like Prado? Ha. Sorry your boy KJ is gone. Don’t get all pissy at me for prefering Marteeen to KJ.

I’m sorry, that was uncalled for. Saying “Long live Martin Prado!” when someone on your team is released seems a little bit low, no matter who it is. But I’m pretty sure you didn’t mean it like that, so I’m sorry.

Well, in all fairness, I hope Prado lives a long time too. I just wish we had KJ at 2B instead – life expectancy aside.

Ya

I don’t dislike KJ at all. I wish him the best. Prado is just one of my favorite players and has been since 2007 or so

Certainly understandable

KJ is one of mine, so I’m shedding some tears

Kelly was my favorite beginning with his 0 for 27 streak, I think at first because I thought that a guy having the name Kelly was kinda cool. It just kinda sucks that he had to go this way. This is like a eulogy haha. I’ll be pulling for both of them now, like I have been. And Mr Wren, know that I hold nothing against you.

Holty_Panthers_Fan - December 12, 2009 reply

Bye Bye KJ, go mess up another teams bench.

KJ sucks and Prado at-least can contribute on a regular basis; KJ is going to end up with a team for sure but his lack luster play is their problem.

Non-tendering him is a great move by Wren and I could not be any happier and really I wish we could have found a trade partner and got something for him but the ATL Braves where afraid of Johnson’s salary through arb salary and nobody was going to trade anything of value for him b/c now they can have him for next to nothing.

The Cards I think may pick him up as a Derosa replacement as stated on here a few days ago.

To all the fans that backed him hmm; You where all wrong Kelly is garbage and that is why he is gone he is simply not worth anything over $1mil.

Go Braves.

why is this dude allowed to post?

One of life’s great questions.

Should have had a troll tag attached...

…after he commented that Mike Cameron was the same as Garrett Anderson.

You seem knowledgeable. Care to share your wisdom?

Why is he gone? Because most other teams know that they can have him for free instead of trading for him.

You are an idiot.

He's not necessarily gone.

The problem was that he (in the eyes of the Braves and apparently potential trade partners) wasn’t worth the salary he would get in arbitration. Now he is a free agent—-Wren has said we would be interested in him for a lesser cost, but it seems likely he will sign where he can get more AB’s.

FWIW, I am ambivalent about this move. I like his bat and last year he was injured. However, he was a butcher at second and his bat as an outfielder wasn’t so great. Was he worth the $3.5-$4 million he would have gotten in arbitration? I don’t know. Close call.

MichaelProcton - December 16, 2009 reply

A butcher at second?

Nah. He made a few bad errors (mostly early), but he’s got good range, and he’s certainly been better there than Prado over the course of his career. That guy plays a bad second.

Ughhhh. I don’t like it.

So you're telling me

We couldn’t get anything for KJ? Nothing at all? Hmmm…

not if anyone realized we were going to do this...

Yeah, I guess so.

Oh well. That’s another $6MM off the books from KJ and Churh. If we can deal DLowe, we’ll have some serious cash money.

We’re not gaining money by non tendering them. They weren’t signed for next season, we just don’t have to pay them.

Yeah, but weren’t their contracts figured into next years payroll? Or not?

They probably planned for them being with the team but I would guess that Wren made up his mind that neither were going to be back at the end of the season. Some of the money that was set aside for them probably went into signing Wagner and Saito.

Not sure how that works. Wagner and Saito are essentially making what Soriano and Gonzalez did this year. So yes, this can be considered a gain in salary, because no one has been added yet that accounts for the 6 million or so that they paid Church (but really Francoeur for the first half) and Johnson.

I think we have about $5-7M to spend. Do you think that’s about right.

You can take the relievers as a wash, take out Anderson and Norton’s contracts, which is what, 3.5 million together?, take out Johnson and Church, say 6 million, take out LaRoche, which probably really amounted to something like 4.5 million between him and Kotchman for the year. So right there that’s taking about 14 million off the roster. I’m not sure who all’s getting a raise, it seems like you’re more up on it than me, but I know Moylan and Logan are getting raises, I’d assume McCann and McLouth are getting a little more, and I’m sure there are a few other guys, so yeah, probably something like that.

if i remember you dont combine Laroche and Kotchman (the Red Sox threw in money so that our payroll didnt increase by adding LaRoche).

so Kothcman made less than 3 last year (if i remember correctly)

Yep, that sound right. I’m not a money expert, that was just off the top of my head. Sounds like that makes it a lot closer to what jack dein had.

Gonzo and Soriano’s contracts in 2009 were almost identical to Wagner and Saito for 2010. I have the total committed payroll for 2010 about 4-5 mill below 2009 levels… and that’s before incentives (Wagner has about 1.5mill possible, IIRC).

And to answer an earlier question, I found 2 sources suggesting that the 2010 payroll will remain near the 2009 levels.

yeah, Schultz, one of the AJC sports commentators, said the same thing in a column today, but did not indicate, of course, where he got the word. So, to me, its just a guess.

Yes we are...

He was part of $95-96m of payments last year. Now he won’t be. My projections are now that we’re currently down about $4-5m from last year’s players.

He also wasn’t signed for this year. Of coarse he was in the payments last year he was on the team. I figure right now the Braves have roughly $88M committed including Lowe’s $15M.

We’re in the same neighborhood – I’m figuring in a few bench players and AAA guys, so I have it at about 90-91.

We have a little to spend but not much. It depends to on who we bring back for Lowe and how much of his deal we have to eat.

I cant help but wonder

what tricks Wren has up his sleeves with all this freed up money and Liberty increasing payrolll…..hmmm

Got a quality link for the “Liberty increasing payroll” mention?

no, sorry

but i remember hearing it a few times on big name sites…but i could be mistaken.

Albert Pujols! I’m on the bandwagon and I’m not getting off!

:)

We won’t have a chance at Pujols till he’s 45 and can only hit the ball 200 feet.

That’s still better than Greg Norton.

Only because Pujols at least will make contact.

We won’t have a chance at Pujols till he’s 45 dead and can only hit the ball 200 feet.

Fixed.

buzzdeadwax - December 14, 2009 reply

No plenty of teams offered really good players

But FW just said “Eff it”

…and how exactly do you know this? Aside from baseless speculation?

ur sarcasm goggles were clearly off on this one CB

Maybe. I’ve never seen this guy’s name before. I figured he was so distraught by the news he joined the site to vent about it.

negative, it was sarcasm

I am firmly in the “I have faith in Mr. Wren” camp

Ah. Good deal. Big internet bear hug to you then.

haha consider it returned

lol.

Fuck this shit

Ha, and you call me an asshole. Riiiight.

This just in

KJ signs with the Royals

j/k

Slee - December 12, 2009 reply

$5 bucks he does.

I’m thinking the Nationals.

NOOOOOO KELLYYYY DON'T GOOOO

Crying Hysterically

Trust me

I’m right there with you

me too

I really don’t see the big deal. It was clear he wasn’t going to play anyway so why pay a guy $4M to sit on the bench.

T
th
thi
this!

Long live Martin Prado!

your new sig should now be “Long live martin Prado!”

Holty_Panthers_Fan - December 12, 2009 reply

Prado is better and cheaper

Long Live Martin Prado should be a fanpost on here everyday until all of the KJ stuff is over and done with. Me & mvhsbball among others agree and for some reason all of you KJ supporters want to pay a guy what $4 million to be a bench player and spot starter ? We already have a spot starter in Infante for the IF and some OF work as well. Prado is going to be the 2b and Cox said that at the end of the season.

Prado rules and KJ is and was always garbage, good bye now post alot of things here how KJ was great, use some very common cuss words and language to make yourselves feel bigger and better and go on with you pathetic lives. I just think it is so funny that their are some many posts on this with all the stuff going on in the world let alone MLB.

Go Braves. Long Live Martin Prado.

I never said KJ was garbage, for the record. And I really wish we could be like the Skankees and have unlimited resources so we could keep KJ around for 2010.

However, money is tight and we still have a big hole at 1B and possibly a corner OF spot to fill. It’s hard for me to justify paying a guy $4-5MM when we already have a guy, Prado, who’s totally capable of playing the position well.

" I just think it is so funny that their are some many posts on this with all the stuff going on in the world let alone MLB."
You do realize that you are posting on this you raving idiot?

lol. Also no not $4 million to be a bench player. $4 million to be a starter.

I was going to say this exact thing, but you beat me to it!

FWIW, I don’t want to pay him $4M…I was thinking more like $3.2M or so.

Starter on the Nats maybe…

leaving everyone’s “pathetic lives” out of the discussion would be nice, especially since you have no idea whatsover about any of these fine people. unless, of course, you actually want to be hated.

He's certainly never cared.

long live poor grammar!

10-4 - December 13, 2009 reply

Good point.

Yes, Johnson was definitely always garbage.

You can tell the way he OPSed 795+ two years in a row over 1000 ABs and played solid MI defense after learning the position after he got to the majors. Nobody in their right mind would want a player like that.

But he wouldn’t sit on the bench because he’s better than Prado

Yet somehow he did…even though Prado was there…hmmm…

Funny how that works..

Ryan Church and Matt Diaz sat on the bench behind Garret Anderson too….so, that pretty much shuts that argument down.

Not really, cause Prado actually played better than Kelly.

Diaz and Church played better than Anderson…

Church was always hurt and Diaz started basically every game in RF once FYF was traded

The point is that they actually got it right with 2B, the better player, the guy who was performing better, actually played. Just because the OF was wonky doesn’t mean the correct decision wasn’t made at 2B.

It also doesn't mean it was.

Wren is trying to put together a championship team.
KJ is a quality player, albeit streaky, but just didn’t fit to the master plan at the projected cost.
Too bad a trading partner couldn’t be located.
Hopefully, KJ can go somewhere and actually play up his potential, and then have a long, solid career.

This makes me so happy.

someguy917 - December 12, 2009 reply

Any reason why?

Because he is scared that KJ is actually better than Mr July.

Think of it this way...

even if KJ of old is better than Prado theres no way in hell he’s 10 times better, which is what we would have been paying him after his arb. hearing.

No bones about it, Prado @ approx. $400K a year > KJ @ $4 mil a year, and theres no way you can argue that.

cirela20 - December 12, 2009 reply

That’s why you lock one of them up, or else, we are going to be DFA’ing Prado in a couple of years because we have some other guy who we only have to pay $400K to.

that makes no sense whatsever… if we have aguy in 4-5 years who can do Kj or Prado’s job for 400k then we dont need to lock anyone up now, bc we have cheap talent on the way in unnammed player X and cheap talent in Prado.

u need to leave thsi thread ur too emotionally invested.

But when there is evidence that one player has a much higher ceiling and may just be flat out better, but you go with the cheaper option in a cost-saving move (and it is really only a small percentage of the total team budget that we are talking about), thus weakening your depth and getting even weaker in a place where we are VERY thin (the infield) it seems to be a bad business model.

he's been declining for 3 straight years...

and wasn’t hitting that well before his injury, while Prado on the other hand has improved during every extent of his playing time, save for his last injured stint as well (thats right Prado was also injured last season and for whatever magical reason managed to OPS over .700)

KJ does not show any of the promise you claim he does, and it’s questionable that he’ll even reach the promise that reasonable people project for him (a max 20 HR – 20 SB #6-7 hitter, with average defense at either 2nd or LF who strikes out 100 times a season.

cirela20 - December 13, 2009 reply

So, he has cut down on his strikeouts, is walking more and showing better plate discipline, but he is declining?

Hmmm…

Come on:
07: .276/.375/.457/.831
08: .287/.349/.446/.795
09: .224/.303/.389/.692

his BABiP fell precipitously in 09, i really dont think we should use that year and put a ton of emphasis on its nrbs (whihc i realize isnt statistically appropriate)….

however, i agree Justin has made his conclusion and will not see the reality that is KJ

tht said, lets not pretend Prado is the answer to our offensive woes…KJ and Prado are essentially equals. Prado is a better hitter, KJ has better plate discipline. Prado may be better defensively and is definately more versatile, KJ has more power.

Neither is incredibly great, both are above avg.

The reason they cant keep KJ is he costs 4M (most liekly)…and Justin stop acting like 4M isnt a big deal , cause it is… its not 4M out of 100M, its 4 out of w/e our budget is this year… Prado can play 2B, he may not hit as well as KJ, or he might hit better. but he saves us money that can be better used elsewhere.

The only way we lose here is if Prado bottom out and goes back to his minor league nbrs (OPS around 700, but he has shown two years in a row he isnt that player anymore) AND KJ rebounds back to 07 form, with improved defense and we could have signed him for 2-3M (which i dont think is possible)

I’m a KJ fan. I’ll miss him on our team if we can’t sign him for less. But this is the most reasonable argument I’ve seen in this thread so far.

Gage23 - December 13, 2009 reply

sorry i didnt intend to be reasonable…thats not allowed in this thread

Prado's DEFINITELY not better defensively.

Have you ever watched these guys play?

that said...

07 and 08 isn’t that significant of a decline except obp, before 09 fell off a cliff early without enough at bats late to pull it up. His numbers are better than Mark Derosa, and while I’m not opposed to the non tendering if we can keep Kelly for a cheaper deal, I certainly would like to see him retained and battling Prado for the starting job all spring on a smaller salary than what he’d have gotten through arbitration.

They've already said they're just going to hand Prado the job.

Hope he doesn’t show a single trace of streakiness, or people better be killing him.

And yes, I am emotionally invested. I have wasted far too many hours throwing the numbers around to simply go out like this!

:)

Holty_Panthers_Fan - December 12, 2009 reply

LOL

Man reason the Braves haven’t won a world series since 1995’ we operate on a limited budget and focus really in our history on SP, going cheap in the bullpen (except the past couple of years) and trading for our big bats or developing them.

So we haven’t won a World Series since because we don’t get big bats through Free Agency? Does “focus really in our history on SP” mean we focus on our SP of old too much or that we invest in pitching like we did when we were going to the playoffs? You also realize that we went to the WS the year after and the playoffs every year from 1991 until 2005, right?

Um…most WS teams focus on SP, go cheap in the BP and either trade for their big bats or bring them up by developing them.

i am so tired of you using a shitty argument as your main means of hating on Prado. Look at Johnson’s OPS every year month by month. He always has one or two months of good production and 5 months of Jeff Francoeur production. While Prado will have one month of bad and 6 months of quality production.

Prado costs less and is just as much of a defensive liability. Prado is scrappy and looks like hee is enjoying the game. He involves everyone on the team which makes me feel like the team is well, a team.

Meanwhile KJ has done nothing to impress me. Had he not had a really good September last year after he would have had an OPS of around .721. And that September is long after the Braves missed the playoffs. So lots of good that did. He also dropped the ball during the game against the Phillies and I will always associate that with the season being scrapped.

So I like Prado more than KJ and I am not the least bit sad about him leaving, because I am tired of you constantly posting things about how we need to keep him around on the off chance that he is able to win back the starting job and go back to poor production most of the year and a few months of streak. Just because I don’t like him doesn’t mean that every time I comment about him, you have to come riding to his rescue.

Also Prado’s OPS in July was only .859 while his April OPS was 1.035. So if anything he would be Mr. April.

So, you like prado because of his scrappiness and he somehow involves everyone on the team?

What, does he throw around the horn to get a guy out at 1st or something?

(PS, when comparing stats like OPS by month, you may want to take a gander at how manny ABs someone has in each month too…it’s called “sample size”)

Not gonna lie, that would be an awesome way to get someone out. Also someguy, your argument is really not better in any way.

I’m not arguing with anyone. I don’t have and argument. I am just trying to defend myself from the KJ patrol that is justincredubil02. I like a player that plays for my team and apparently that means I have to constantly get attacked from other fans of my team.

Yes, I like players for things that go beyond stats. I like Prado because he earned his way onto the team. I respect that. The gets the team involved was a reference to all his handshakes and other things he does. You don’t have to like him. You don’t have to like this move, but stop ruining it for me.

I really don’t dislike you in any way. I just want to like Prado in peace.

PS, the only sample sizes that were small come from 2009 and 2005. You can kindly ignore those years and my argument still holds true. If you disagree you will be arguing that KJ isn’t streaky and that’s plain foolish. Look at 2008, which was apparently a good year.

I don’t dislike Prado at all. Ask anyone in the game threads, I cheer just as loudly for Prado as anyone else. I just happen to think KJ is better.

When you say that having a certain player cut from our team makes you happy, that is not you supporting Prado, but rather you hating on KJ. So please, spare me the drama of “let me cheer my favorite in peace”.

Regarding small sample sizes, I am talking specifically about the months that you listed in your previous post.

Liking a player because he gets the whole team involved in handshakes is…um…a reach, at best? I mean, do you seriously think Prado shakes hands better than KJ or something?

I have never once stated that KJ isn’t streaky. I think he is one of the streakiest players I have ever seen. But, it is ironic that you bring that up, since most of the Prado supporters ignore the fact that he too is streaky and has benefitted greatly from an abnormally high BaBIP.

Alright this is my last post.

Prado brings the team together and makes it look like they are having fun. I like that. I go beyond stats. I make no apologies for that. The unique handshakes for every member of the team is just part of it.

I also don’t know what the issue with the sample sizes is as I thought I already addresses that, but its not important. Just disregard whatever I said that was using a small sample size.

I don’t want some internet fight here. I didn’t mean anything that bad to KJ. I never really liked him that much, but I never hated him. I just felt it was poor judgment to offer arbitration and I like this decision. I apologize if I offended you or KJ. See you in another thread.

maybe he likes it cause he doesn’t really like KJ, just like you dont like this move about non tendering him cause you ARE a big fan of KJ. Sounds pretty simple to me. I like KJ and wished we could have gotten him but cant say im surprised about this move…

Kept him*

How could you like the idea of anyone getting fired? Which is essentially what this is.

Ummmm lets say Greg Norton was arb eligible and we non tendered him, im pretty sure alot of people would be sayin heck yeah great move Wren i love it and stuff like that, and you might be one of the same ones sayin that, just think about that…

Yeah I mean it would be the right move, but I just don’t think it’s right to feel happy about it. I don’t know maybe I’m wrong.

"rockybull" are u commenting towards me?

Because if yo are, I think you misunderstood…
I’m not a KJ fan, in fact I was actually commenting in favor of Prado.

Even if there is a small argument that can be made for KJ being a better player or having a higher talent ceiling there isn’t a chance that he was worth 10 times more Prado ever, especially not now.

Baseball is a game of numbers, and I think we all forget sometimes that a players price tag is one of thos numbers.

cirela20 - December 12, 2009 reply

no im not commentin towards you. Press the up button and you can see that im replyin to “aciemvp” comment sayin “any reason why?”

gotcha

thanks

cirela20 - December 12, 2009 reply

Yeah cause now this debate is over and hopefully it will go away.

Well, as of right now...

… Heyward (RF), Schaefer (LF w/Diaz), and Freeman (1B) are all making the squad. And before I get lambasted for that, recall that there is no wiggle room until Lowe or Vazquez gets moved.

I did a rough calculation and came up with about $88M that is committed for next year. That gives us about $5-7M to spend. Of coarse through free agency that gets you 1 guy so Lowe has to be moved. Also McLouth would play LF and Schafer would play CF.

Yeah, I was waffling over LF/CF mixing in Diaz/Schaef/McLouth.

Schafer is a much better defender but he needs to spend the year at AAA after missing much of 2009. It wouldn’t hurt Heyward to start at AAA either.

Definitely not gonna argue those points, except to say that at the moment, there are no bona fide LF (with apologies to MDiaz), RF, or 1B players signed. Things are starting to look a little thin.

Right now your right. I just hope that that isn’t how we open the season. I’m Wren will do something.

Someone talk me off this ledge…HURRY!

Heres one for you...

Prado’s BA > Kelly’s OBP last year. Just roll with what works.

That doesn’t work for me. I can explain that KJ had an injury that required him to be DL’d, resulting in his poor numbers, but it doesn’t matter now.

I can only hope that we sign him to a lesser contract?

Please God

There is.

But that’d require nobody else wanted him for more. I doubt getting let go particularly endeared the organization to him.

Life is pointless and you favorite player is gone! Jump!

Chipper is my favorite player…I just think KJ is better than Prado. KJ gets an unbelievable bad rap and ridiculous accusations against him (like how he is always hitting into DPs, etc) that I feel obligated to try to set straight.

As with the usual case, its probably somewhere in between. I don’t think he’s as good as you’re making him out to be, and I definitely don’t think he’s as bad as others think he is. All in all, though, I agree with Wren in that he’s probably not worth 4MM.

soup du jour - December 12, 2009 reply

finally, a comment i agree with

Nevertheless, JUMP!

Wow first time that i have seen the dark side in CB :)

Which is pretty funny, cause away from baseball it’s almost all dark side. I’m almost a decent human being when I’m around this game.

I lol’d.

Lizziebeth - December 17, 2009 reply

lol

And your friends have left you
You’ve been dismissed
I never thought it would come to this
And I, I want you to know

Everyone’s got to face down the demons
Maybe today we can put the past away

I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend
You could cut ties with all the lies
That you’ve been living in and if you do not want to see me again
I would understand, I would understand, I would understand!

soup du jour - December 12, 2009 reply

LOL

+1 for 3rd Eye Blind ref

Sadly, 3rd Eye Blind got non-tendered by their label too…

haha also the yes, man reference

I’ve been thinking that i really need to get real with them again.

Damn, that song still sucks as much as it did the first time I heard it.

DON'T JUMP....

I don’t want to have to go to another dry suicide prevention briefing.

bravos1984 - December 12, 2009 reply

I'm in the Army

A-men to that

hahahaha…i usually fall asleep during those…ok, i kid, but seriously….

justin

Just saw you were in texas, are you at Ft. Da Hood?

No, thankfully. I would hate to be anywhere near that place.

I am at Dyess AFB.

That’s good man, I was at Hood for a little bit, luckily they sent us up to Ft Carson Co this past June

Woah! Look who shows up again

GoBravesNY - December 13, 2009 reply

Yeah. I’ve been busy moving from Turkey to England. Very cold here…

Lakenheath?

Yeppers. Nice to be in a place where the locals can’t switch languages on you. Unless of course you count British English as a whole different language.

cool, i guess, to an extent. Hey, at least you get actual snow

GoBravesNY - December 14, 2009 reply

Man, I tried to forewarn you, get you emotionally prepared, all that stuff. Alas, it didn’t seem to help much.

Off topic

I enjoyed this blurb from MLBTR

Raise your hand if you’re an arbitration-eligible Marlin who has been tendered an offer. Not so fast, Alfredo Amezaga.

This one from the comments section has me wondering if we should enact some sort of litmus test required before people procreate:

Brooks Conrad is a much better hitter, fielder, and all around better baseball player and I think he would be a great upgrade over Kelly

I would lol if I had it in me. I don’t.

Unbelievable.

Here’s what I don’t get: The Braves, as an organization are weakest at the infield positions…that being the case, shouldn’t they be willing to overpay a little for a very good middle infielder with above average pop???

No.

So we should be willing to save a few dollars and stick with our weak organizational IF depth?

I don’t get it.

It’s more than just a few dollars. Its $4M. That alone doesn’t get us much on the free agent market but it adds to the money we already had.

$4M out of a $100M budget is nothing.

Besides, the contract would have probably been in the $3-3.5M range anyway.

Still a lot to pay to a bench player who really can only play 1 position.

SS, LF, 2B is more than 1, and I am assuming that he could probably play 3rd too. I don’t know how his arm is after the surgery to say that he could play RF too, but there is always that possibility.

KJ is anything but a 1 position player.

Yes, but he’s also a fairly mechanical fielder and wouldn’t be that good at any of those positions. He couldn’t play RF with that arm but I guess it would be servicable in LF.

Right. And he wasn’t exactly Ozzie Smith at 2B, either.

Yakker - December 12, 2009 reply

His UZR for his time in LF is actually quite good.

Lennox - December 12, 2009 reply

Yeah, in 2005. It’s been awhile since he’s been out there.

KJ at shortstop???

LOLOLOLOL.

Apparently, someone doesn’t know their Braves players…

Look at jack dein below, it’ll have been 7 years since he played there.

I know, but to laugh at the thought of KJ at SS is ignorant. He was drafted and came up as one.

Just because the Braves have used him in other roles doesn’t mean he can’t play the position. He will not be Jose Reyes out there, but he would be serviceable.

The point is, he is not a 1 trick pony.

He could probably fill in at 3B and LF for a game but he’s a limited option. Infante can play all OF position plus the infield except 1B, P, and C for a game or two.

I don’t understand how Infante (a career journeyman, btw) is all of a sudden better at every position than KJ.

Isn’t Infante getting something like $3M this year?

He just is better. He’s more versatile and he’s shown a consistent ability to play off the bench.

I won’t argue that KJ could probably play a little SS, but man it would be ugly. Anything other than 2B, 3B, 1B, and LF would be bad, and none of those are gonna be pretty.

there was a reason he changed positions...

Keep in mind that he changed from SS to outfield in order to make it to the majors, and usually that means either there’s a top prospect or star ahead of you at your position or that your defense is flat out bad, (in this case the latter is definitely true.)

Anyone who has seen KJ try to field a ground ball to his backhand side should be scared to death of him playing any amount of games at shortstop

cirela20 - December 13, 2009 reply

He’s getting $2.225M and Infante is a utility player. Infante is a high avg. high OBP guy who is at the very least serviceable at all those postions. I also wonder if Johnson being arb. eligible for 2011 also hurt his value. He made $2.8M last year and would have made around $4M this year. In 2011 he would have made around $5M and with Prado set to start at 2B he likely wouldn’t have been given the opportunity to play regularly.

apoxonbothyourhouses - December 13, 2009 reply

actually

he was a SS until surgery. then he was a LF.

No, that’s inacurrate.

he was drafted as such…he wouldnt be that good, be either is Infante at SS…he could play SS like CHipper could play SS (although ebign as KJ is more athletic he probably would be better than CHipper).

He hasn’t played SS since 2003 at AA. I don’t know if I want to put his arm back in the OF. He could probably play 3B for a game but when you have Infante whose a better hitter and can field all those positions why keep him around.

Theoretically, David Ortiz COULD play SS

That doesn’t mean he will play it well…

There is a difference in someone theoretically playing a position and someone actually being drafted, groomed and paid to play the position.

Have you seen Kelly at 2B? If so, imagine that range at SS. Pretty scary.

Still does not make your comparison any more relevant

I have, and I have seen him with some pretty good range at 2B, so I don’t know what you are talking about.

Kelly made errors, sure. But he didn’t make that many. He made BIG errors that stick out in people’s minds, which is why he is labeled as a “bad defender” when he is actually pretty good.

his range is actually quite bad… ur slipping bro. His athleticism saves him but his instincts at 2B are for shit.. his range was the worst in all of baseball in 08 for 2B

stats/pics or it never happened

according to fangraphs

his defensive rating in his last full season was a -10.6…he was -.1 last season…take that to mean whatever you want

I think the recent results would be more relevant.

The guy only learned the position three years ago. And this year’s range component was 1.4, a decent bit above average (particularly when Prado’s been negative his whole career and is lauded as a defensive wizard relative to KJ.)

His range is fine.

It’s above-average, and it’s certainly better than uber-hero Prado.

That's quite the assumption.

He hasn’t played any of the above other than second since TJ.

This, for 4 million you can sign 3 or 4 guys who can produce the way Kelly did this year and increase your IF depth.

Everyone is getting wrapped up in KJ’s 2009. Why? Do his other years of above-average numbers not count now that he had a year in which he was injured?

Saying you can sign 3-4 guys with KJs contract money is absurd too, in that you can only replace him with 1 player on the roster.

You’re the one worried about depth. And I only care about 2009 because we don’t play the game in the past. 2010 is coming up and if I’m building a roster I’m not looking at who was good in 07 or 08, I want guys who seem like they’re going to be good in the future. I know you love him, but KJ’s percentages have dropped 3 years in a row. That’s not a guy I want to invest money in. I wouldn’t buy a stock that had been consistently losing.

I would buy that stock…depending on the circumstances of course.

When that stock is going down, there is never a better time to buy.

When that stock is going down, there is never a better time to buy.

thank god ur not in the financial sector

buy low, sell high.

It has worked for my stocks. I had a 19% profit over the past year – even with the “recession”.

you're not buying low if he costs 4 mil

I’m sorry, maybe my analogy wasn’t full. You have one company, an established company, it’s seen it’s production decrease for three straight years. You have a second company, that sells the exact same product as the older company, it’s younger and less proven, but it’s production has been better than the older company for the last year. The stock for the older company is ten times more expensive than the stock for the newer company. Which stock do you buy?

Thats about as easy a decision as they come ESPECIALLY during these times…

If you "don't play the game in the past"

Why does the 2009 season matter so much? It, too, is in the past, no?

I suppose it’s because stats get wiped clean but medical records don’t.

bravos1984 - December 12, 2009 reply

Now you’re just being difficult.

I was waiting for...

…the linguistic explanation of why 2009 wasn’t in the past. ;) (sorry, couldn’t help it, just having fun).

I’m sure there was a linguistic definition but it was 3 am and I was like, come on, really?

Thanks Kelly

Enjoyed having KJ around. Good ball player and seemed like a nice fella.

I agree with Wren, though, 4 million is a bit steep for a back up second baseman.

kalesi - December 12, 2009 reply

Everyone needs to take a chill pill...

For better or for worse, Wren has made the call…there’s no sense bickering over it now. Root for the players we’ve got now, and trust that FW knows what he’s doing

I concur. Us yelling and cussing won’t change FW’s decison.

Agreed

Circumstances dictated this move, I don’t think it was a vote of no confidence in KJ. I like KJ alot, but now we should all be pulling for Prado to tear it up.
Let’s not forget that we all pull for the same team

Nobody is rooting against Prado. There is just a group of us who feel the Kelly is the better player

that’s fine, but why argue heatedly about it? The decision has been made

If that’s the case then why argue about anything on here because we have no real input to the team?

Point taken

I just don’t get why get so upset here

No reason to argue...

Prado IS better than Kelly. In almost every way, sans maybe sprinting.

8 )P

and sans baseball, but I guess that is another discussion…

Haha it seems easy for you to say when you’re supporting the move… lol

Still Crying Hysterically

“Nick! Nick! Where are you?”

“Ahhhh! I’m in a glass case of emotion!”

and the reference of the day award goes to mvhsbball!

I need a new player to love now…

Join the Schafer bandwagon!

They call us Schafer’s Chafers. So far there’s one member

He would have been my pick. My top 3 Braves were Chipper, Kelly, and Schafer. I guess Schafer gets the promotion

Schafer’s Chauffeurs? is that what u are aiming at there

Yeah, chafer puts a bad image in my head

Chauffeurs is an option but no it is not what I was aiming for

gotcha..i wasnt sure if that was a spelling error or if u intended that you like jordan and have some sort of rash

Chipper's Dippers

We also endorse Skoal smokeless tobacco

haha. yess.

winner winner chicken dinner

McCann and McWill - December 12, 2009 reply

I heard we have some right fielder coming up from the minors. He sounds like he may be likable.

This Lowe thing better go right. In a really good way. That’s really all I have to say.

Good-bye Kelly Johnson

Hello Garrett Atkins?

SmithnCompany - December 12, 2009 reply

I sure hope not.

Atkins is not a good player. He has never hit outside of Coors, and in 2009 he couldn’t hit there either.

Mistake

I think this was a big mistake….both from a financial and baseball perspective….

1) I think he is a pretty good ballplayer and he will end up cathing on and doing well this year. He is a guy that the Giants, Twins, Royals, Pirates, Marlins…maybe even the Dodgers will jump on. He will end up being a .270/.350 guy …hitting 20 hrs. That will make him an acceptable option at 2B given his defense and it could make him an accetable option in the OF for some team as his OF defense is good and offense will be so/so. So I think losing him from your team at a low point is a mistake baseball wise.

2) His and Church’s removal from the roster…with nothing in return hurts our depth. I wonder how much we will have to spend to sign free agents to fill those hole?

3) I think this could have been avoided….given that the Braves knew they were going to come to this…why wasn’t he traded early in the offseason. Getting to the last couple of weeks every team that was probably interested…just decided to wait…and see what happens rather then give up prospects.

4) I know people like Prado…and I do as well. However, I just think we have seen his ceiling….now if he can maintain that for a while…..fine. However, my fear is that he will level off a little bit and see something closer to a .270/.320 hitter….which may not seem like a lot but is a big drop off from the .300/.360 we have been seeing. That being said…he does profile well as a #2 hitter.

If he goes to the Dodgers....

I wonder if he could develop the way Either has developed…their numbers were similiar coming through the minors if memory serves me….Either was a 3B in the Oakland system before moving to the OF.

i certaintly dont think KJ has the power to be Ethier, however, if you are referencing Ethier blooming lat then its possible.

Kelly’s offense plays like someone with a switch on their back. You just never know if he’s on or off. Pretty precarious stuff.

More late bloomer offensively....

Ethier’s power was a surprise last year….so no…I don’t think that is likely. But I could see KJ hitting like a Ethier of 2007 or 2008. For the record…I was wrong about his IF experience…I could have sworn he played 3B at some point…but I was wrong.

I don’t even see how Ethier is a late bloomer. He’s the same age as Kelly and he started his pro career three years later. When you sign your first contract at 21 and turn into an All Star at 27, that’s a pretty regular amount of time.

Kelly Johnson develop into Andre Ethier?

Ha. Ha. Ha.

Neither here nor there, but didn’t Kelly get us a big homer in LA last year?

Si Senor

he did indeed. it was on a changeup and he pulled it down the RF line

I’m thinking it won us the game. And then, something like the next game in the series Ethier pulled the same thing on us.

If I remember correctly, we dominated game 1 of the 4 game series and then Ethier broke our little hearts and hit a walkoff.

The next night, KJ hit the homer in, like, the 12th inning or so.

The next night, we won again in extra innings.

The next night, Clayton Kershaw shit on us on national TV and the Dodgers won by a bunch

Roight.

20 home runs? How is a 28 year old who’s career high in the Majors is 16 (two years ago) and who’s only hit over 20 once in his minor league career, 23 in low a ball, all of the sudden going to become a 20 HR guy?

The same way Escobar is apparently going to hit 30 bombs in the future.

lol good response.

alligatorimpersonator - December 12, 2009 reply

20 homers for KJ?

considering in his two full seasons he combined to hit 28, I don’t see that happening

http://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-braves/johnson-a-free-agent-239305.html

FW open to retaining KJ, but at lower cost

(not placing any unnecessary blame here)…..

But I could see TP telling KJ to, “just stick with it.”

Dont even get me started on TP as a hitting coach.....

Not likely.....

If you are Kelly…if you are taking a pay cut…you are taking a 1 yr deal where you can start…so you can cash in in 2011.

YES!!! I was hoping this would happen!!!

I'll miss ya KJ.

I think my favorite moment was when he came off the bench and hit a pinch hit grand slam again the Mets. That, or the time he hit 2 bombs in a game…also against the Mets.

We never hit a grand slam in 09 did we?

2008

LOL...

Check out the star of that game.

Sure didn’t.

Sad day.

Gage23 - December 13, 2009 reply

It was a strange situation. At one point, we had the bases loaded. I remember Infante was on third, and made it home on a weird play. Then McCann came up and knocked one out with men on 1st and 2nd, just after Infante had come in from 3rd.

So, no, we didn’t. Technically.

I was at that game. It’s been a long time since we’ve had a grand slam

too long

Sucks to have a guy who came up through our system, was a top offensive 2B in the NL for two seasons, who supposedly had a lot of teams calling to ask about him, and to now give him up without getting anything in return.

Lennox - December 12, 2009 reply

Sad to see KJ go. The Braves never really got the most from him. I do prefer Martin Prado, but I have nothing against KJ.

Hopefully a change of scenery is all he needs.

So who signs KJ, the Royals or the Natinals?

Sparhawk - December 12, 2009 reply

Since no one on here listens without a fangraphs reference

In the “value” rankings fangraphs, for defense at 2B.

2008 – Kelly Johnson had the WORST fielder rating at 2B in the NL

2007 – Kelly Johnson had the second worst fielder rating at 2B in the NL, behind only the shell of Jeff Kent.

I get it, the guy had 2 decent seasons driven by hot streaks. But he was bad defensively and as of now Martin Prado is better.

He seemed like a nice guy, was nice to see him come through the system but this is not a big loss. Time to move on.

I give him ~~some~~ a lot of credit here: he came in as an outfielder and had to learn the 2nd base position – almost from scratch. He worked hard at it for a couple of years and did so well enough to hang with a major league roster.

He wasn’t actually an outfielder though, he was a shortstop, then a third baseman, then an outfielder, and then a second baseman. The guy has moved all over because he’s not that good at any of the positions.

2009 – Martin Prado was WORSE than Kelly Johnson in 100 less innings.

Fun that you forgot to mention that one.

bigjoe - December 12, 2009 reply

Martin Prado’s batting average was also higher than KJ’s OBP in 2009. You forgot to mention that one too.

I know it’s not about defense, but still…

and u forgot to mention even in a reduced injury plagued season.. KJ still ISO’ed more than Prado

we can do this all day if u want… ur love for Prado is as baseless as the love for KJ

You seemed to forget that Prado’s BABIP was 85 points higher than Johnson’s.

bigjoe - December 12, 2009 reply

Prado’s skills point towards a higher BABiP, but ur right it shouldnt be that much more

That and outside of Prado’s July streak where his BaBIP was over .400, he wasn’t very impressive.

He did have a good 2 week stretch to close out the season, but that too was aided by an outrageously high BaBIP.

most players good streaks are the product of high BABip…look at any streak…its a product of well hit balls falling in

so this argument is useless as well

come on ur better than this

I get that. I am not arguing that point, really. I am arguing that people need to temper their expectations of Prado due to this fact. It is unreasonably to expect him to be able to produce like he did during that stretch last season.

but its not unreasonable to expect that month to happen again and have him come out with similar stasts at the end of the year.

oh

and the difference between Kj and Prado in UZR is -1.3. It’s not like Prado is garbage out there.

Goodness. You KJ supporters really took this one hard, huh? He’s just a baseball player. And I’m pretty sure he doesn’t give 2 shits about you. I don’t know why you guys get all defensive about him

I don’t know why you get so OFFensive about him…it is like you slime him any and every chance you get.

I really don’t. Most of the time its in response to someone trying to say KJ is better than Prado. Maybe I get so OFFensive because KJ supporters on here go nuts whenever someone supports Martin Prado. Don’t act like its not true..

u have covered this thread with Prado comments… no one provoked u

All of the 31971397139 KJ Fanboys and Fangirls did

Look, another one!

You just gave an example of what I am talking about. Thanks.

Haha you’re welcome broski

Long live Martin Prado!

(Dont get mad at me guys, it’s just a phrase I like. It’s all in good fun)

Actually, I think that is that...

…they both are pretty bad defensively. That’s a problem. But, Prado is young, maybe he can improve and make it to average. I would be cool with that.

Aren’t they pretty much the same age? I think KJ is older by 2 years, so Prado isn’t really young…

Good point. Everyone says Prado is this young up and coming player but he’s only like a year and a half younger.

It’s basically 2 years, February of 82 and October of 83, and in baseball, that’s a lot.

Prado's certainly been playing 2B longer and likely still has more total experience there.

KJ’s the one who’s been showing defensive improvement.

And yet he improved to the point that he had an average UZR this year.

It’s tough to have a major surgery and then be told to learn a position you’ve never played. He’s also a million miles ahead of Prado, who can’t get to any ball more than a step and a half away from him.

EDIT: Johnson was the 3rd worst in 2007, Uggla was worse.

4th worst. Craig Biggio was there too. Your argument is falling apart a little, no?

bigjoe - December 12, 2009 reply

not to mention the +/- rankings paint a different story if i remember correctly

If you’re happy KJ was better deffensively than 2 washed up 2B in 09 (Kent and Biggio) then so be it. Thats no accomplishment.

lol good one

I just hope...

he doesn’t end up in the NL East.

Wherever he ends up, I predict this is a move that is going to come back to haunt the Braves.

But, what’s done is done, so let’s move on.

Go Braves!, as always.

i want Kj on the braves… but in all fairness i thin kwe said the same thign about Giles haunting us… and well

His babip was pretty much the opposite of KJ’s though

If anybody thought Giles was going to haunt them they really weren’t paying attention. And if anyone thinks Johnson is going to haunt them…

They are pretty clearly correct?

Yeah, not so much.

This is probably a dumb question...

FW said that we’re open to retaining Kelly, just at a lower cost. So couldn’t we have just offered him a cheaper contract instead of none at all? Or do we have to offer him arbitration?

the latter, which would cost way too much. Happy Trails KJ. You weren’t my favorite, but you gave it all. Best of luck

GoBravesNY - December 12, 2009 reply

So we have to offer arbitration or let him go? What if we were willing to sign him to a multi-year deal? Just trying to figure out how this process works

we could have tendered him a multi year deal, but thats not sensible, bc right now theres a chance the 09 KJ is the real KJ and the June 09 Prado is the real deal, we jsut dont know…if either are true, after this year we would know and theres no reason to take a mutli year risk on KJ right now

but we could haev offered a mutli year deal and still can.

Yeah I wasn’t saying that’s what we should do, just wondering about the system. Thanks for the explanation

Which part of ’09 for each of those guys though? That is the crazy part. Both were really good for parts of ’09 and both were really bad in parts of ’09.

It would make my day if a Prado supporter willingly admitted that Prado is also streaky.

alligatorimpersonator - December 12, 2009 reply

Prado is streaky

his streaks are just better

Prado’s July streak was better. His other streak (the one where he sucked for nearly 5 weeks) was actually worse than KJ’s bad streak. But, don’t let that get in the way of everyone’s fanaticism.

In 2008

Johnson’s most recent “good” year, he had 3 months where he hit under .240

But don’t that let get in the way of your fanaticism.

Don’t let Batting Average ever stand in the was of a good argument. Well-done!

Dont let reality stand in the way of a man crush.

Bravo

Indeed.

And although I hate to repeat myself, a nice, simple, reality-based comparison of the career numbers does seem in order.

Prado: 779 MLB career ABs: .307/ .360/ .451/ .811

Johnson: 1661 MLB career ABs: .264/ .346/ .430/ .777

dude dont you KNOW Johnson had sooooooooooooooooooo many more AB’s so that clearly means he is better, come on man get it together ;)

Yes, I trust him more because he’s had more PAs…

lol, yeah i was bein sarcastic but some on here have made arguments FOR those plate appearances and sayin how Prado hasn’t had nearly as much so its a smaller sample size lol.

It's definitely harder to perform once a week when matchups dictate than to play every day.

Good call.

alligatorimpersonator - December 14, 2009 reply

I meant to say his hot streaks are better

Remember when Kelly finished the season out with a 27 or 28 game hit streak?

But thank you for admitting it, sort of.

He has 5 years of service time so yes we have to. The only thing that we could have done is offer him 80% of what he made last year and go to arbitration and hope for the best. I can’t think of a player though who made less money through arbitration. 80% still would have been $2.24M.

never happened, i dont think a team has ever won an arb hearing. regardless of their tag. its a fair system, really.

Actually, they have.

Many teams win by being more reasonable that the agent for the player. But you have to offer a reasonable amount. And we didn’t want to offer KJ a reasonable amount for a player of his skills and service time. Now the market decides. We’ll see what he gets.

The minimum you can offer a player during arbitration is 80% of what he made the previous year. As i said above that still would have been $2.24M. In my opinion that’s just to much for a guy coming off the year he had.
As far as who wins arbitration hearings the most, I read last year that it’s fairly even. I can’t think of a player however who saw his pay decrease through arbitration.

That is very rare...

…because of the way the system is built. The salary through arbitration is based upon salaries of similar players with the same service time. For a first year arbitration case, it will always be a raise because before then players are more or less free. The way the system works, the salary goes up each arbitration year, which is why salaries rarely go down—-each successive year the player has one more year of service time.

Can't do that.

We had two choices given his service time—-offer him arbitration or let him be a free agent. We chose the later. He can still sign with us, but everyone else gets a shot at him too.

BraveBronco0121 - December 12, 2009 reply

So, I know I've not been posting anything since last offseason...

but this strikes me as an incredible blunder and I can hardly believe some folks think this is a good move. KJ’s 2009 struggles were fueled by a BABIP .249 as compared to ~.315 in the two years prior. That kind of drop is probably attributable to some bad luck. His walk rate was a solid 9%, his ISO was good at .165, and he actually cut back on his Ks while also bringing his defense up to about league average.

Prado, the guy some folks seem to prefer, is just the opposite – his BABIP is a bit high and, if it drops to merely average, will cease to be worth anything with the bat. Furthermore, his career UZR/150 at 2B is -15.2 He’s probably not that bad, but he’s not a good defender at the keystone by any stretch.

This seems like a dumb move, and I’ve yet to see any evidence that makes me think differently.

you a Broncos fan as well? I need someone to talk crap to after the Colts win again tomorrow. :)

Dude, I have made all of those points multiple times, but it seems that people don’t care.

BraveBronco0121 - December 12, 2009 reply

haha, sorry to be rehashing then...

but I just couldn’t bring myself to wade through all of that… mess up top.

Yeah, we have gone through this debate ad nauseum over the past 9 months or so…we haven’t really touched it in this thread, believe it or not.

BraveBronco0121 - December 12, 2009 reply

I remember it got pretty heated last offseason

There’s another thread from a few days ago that got pretty intense. I made the point that it would make more sense to tender Kelly a contract and trade Prado. I don’t think anyone other than Justin agreed/listened.

Eh...

I don’t know if that would have been the right move. Prado is too versatile and too good to let go, even if KJ’s better.

It's a tough call.

He has a bat that can hit when healthy. He also can’t field worth crap. At the price, it is a tough call. Don’t know if it is a good or bad move.

He can't?

He was an average 2B in just his third season at the position last year, and was trending upward.

No one said it was a “good move”, but it also isn’t a move that will hold the team back. Martin Prado has had around 700 ABs the last 2 seasons and has proven himself in every way. Kelly became expendable, especially given his 2009 performance.

If this move helps gives the Braves more flexibility to get a good bat that will be able to play every day (as Kelly wasn’t going to), then I really can’t see a negative there.

I actually argues for Kelly before the season, but he didn’t step up and Martin did. Its over, people need to realize this decision makes sense financially.

Let it be known, I have nothing against Kelly Johnson. Just dumping my limited KJ material for the last time.

I hope Kelly goes somewhere and is successful and him and his hot wife live happily ever after.

hahaha

nice. rec’d

That may be the worst thing about all of this…no more of this girl:

hubba hubba

the beautiful women are leavign the ATL…first Mrs Kotsay now Mrs Johnson (hehe, its a synonym for weiner)

we need swisher

isnt DLowe’s wife a hottie too? But hell, shes probably on here way out too

yeah...they have a skeezy story of how they met tho

Bravely going forward - December 12, 2009 reply

thats why we should get Nick Swisher/Mrs. Nick Swisher

cirela20 - December 13, 2009 reply

I’ve always thought KJ’s wife was the prettiest

Not that I look at him first, but he strangely looks like Matthew Stafford in this picture.

There is a dude in the pic?

This I will agree with. Of the wives I’ve seen pictures of KJ’s is by far the hottest.

Jamie Kotsay disagrees

Dammit…

I will miss KJ’s socks

+1

+10000000000

+1. Love the high scoks

GoBravesNY - December 12, 2009 reply

spelling fail

GoBravesNY - December 12, 2009 reply

+1

sigh....

I will miss the socks as well as the legs inside them.

sddbaker - December 14, 2009 reply

haha

is there any way we can make it a TC rule that this thread is the last place we will have the insufferable Prado-KJ debate?

haha, it would be nice, but...

we all know that wont happen. I’d sure like it tho.

as soon as we get a thread with a moratorium on all Teixiera trade talk

At least Bisher is retired

haha

just wait til Prado has a poor ST or hits an extended slump

Something makes me think justincredibul has some sort of RSS feed that will alert him on his desktop anytime an internet story mentions “prado” and “struggling” “slump” or “error” in the same page.

as well as pre-written rants to increase efficiency

The only thing that I will ever post when that happens is a smiley. And the best part about that is you will all know exactly what I mean, and I won’t even have to say it.

Also, you might want to get used to seeing those smileys around…

If Prado puts up numbers this coming year (and as a Braves fan, I can only hope he does!), I will apologize and concede that this was a good move.

However, I foresee Infante being our starting 2B by the end of the year.

I just dont understand how 700 ABs of .310+ baseball isn’t enough.

I imagine that he could hit .300 AGAIN this year and all we would hear would be how his BAPIP was misleading and how good Kellys ISO was in 30 games for his new team.

BA FTW again!

Stat junkie garbage man!

They might want to see if Infante wants to stick around at 3rd pretty soon. You never know.

When it’s August and Prado is doing what he does and Johnson still hasn’t regained his 2007 form then we’ll have a thread for the final discussion.

If that happens, you can all mock me and never listen to me again. But Prado has to have been good for the whole season, not just a streak in August. And I pray he will have been.

What do you consider good for a whole season? Johnson has never been good for a whole season if we’re going to look at streaks as discounting a player from being good. One month, no matter how good it was couldn’t possibly have affected his season that much. His other months, which weren’t as good as his best month, were still good. This one month argument is just a silly one by a lot of people who I thought were smarter than that.

My off-the-cuff guess is for the substantial majority (say, 80%) of everyday players in MLB, there is tons of month to month variability throughout any given season. So, for example, a .300 hitter will hit .230, .275, .310 and .335 in various months; and a 40 HR hitter will hit 3, 8 and 13 in various months.

Truly consistent production, I’d guess, is quite rare.

KJ

I understand people having emotions when a player who at 1 point looked
like a long term contributor slides down and is replaced. the Braves could not
afford to carry KJ as a non-starter and prado simply won the job, just as the
unheralded javy lopez came up the blue collar route.
infante provides the Braves enormous flexibilty as he can spell a number of
players if injured or underacheieve. a utility IF is not hard to find either from
within or a draft wire pick in ST, or a throw in in a major deal.
FW had some tough choices yet does find himself with some freed up cash
and Lowe plus an excess of prospects to get us a 1B or LF.

sealift67 - December 12, 2009 reply

Ha...the "unheralded" Javy Lopez?

The one who was—for three consecutive years—a top 80 prospect in all of baseball (and top 20 the last two of those?)

Frank Wren...

…Once again has the guts to slash a fan-favorite, that will in the long run make the team better. We can’t spend money on players that don’t produce, it’s as simple as that. It’s the same reason FW didn’t offer more money to John Smoltz last offseason.

Wren knows what he’s doing, and I’m sure things will start to fall in place once John Lackey signs. That’s the key to our offseason.

BigG1392 - December 12, 2009 reply

+1

I didn't know...

KJ was considered a “fan-favorite”.

sddbaker - December 14, 2009 reply

You must not interact with many fans.

Jareth Cutestory - December 12, 2009 reply

What I mean...

is a fan favorite in the “oh look, it’s Jeff Francouer, he’s so dreamy” way, not the “Kelly Johnson is a great player” way. He is definitely one of this fan’s favorites in that way.

sddbaker - December 17, 2009 reply

I am so effing pissed right now...

the hardest decision I had to make today was which Kelly Johnson tee to buy from MLBShop…the navy or red one?

I’ll miss you, Kelly Johnson. I hope I’m wrong, but I think the Braves may be sorry when Marteeeen doesn’t have quite the year he had last year and Kelly tears it up somewhere else.

Hope you chose red – the Sunday alternate jerseys really annoy the purists. Did you get a non-tendered price?

Jareth Cutestory - December 12, 2009 reply

I hate the the Sunday alternates, too...

but I chose red because EVERYONE has the navy shirts. Figured I’d be different. I’ve already got a navy Maddux tee.

I think I'm going Kelly green next time

although I totally get annoyance at prioritizing fashion over accuracy in sports apparel.

VivaLosBravos - December 13, 2009 reply

no "Kelly" pun intended.

VivaLosBravos - December 13, 2009 reply

glad to hear everyone has the navy ones. hopefully those away jerserys will be around for a long time. ESPECIALLY the hat.

Jareth Cutestory - December 13, 2009 reply

I'm not quite sure what you're saying...

I simply meant that most everyone I see with a Braves tee has a navy one. I figured I’d get red because it’s a bit more unique. Plus, people say they like red on me ;)

I wish they had a T-shirt version of the road alternates…the navy & white w/no red whatsoever. I think those would be pretty cool =)

Should I even bother...

…starting the unique discussion again?

The reds are no less ugly than the blues.

My best guess on "The Plan"

1. Sell Lowe… for as close to $15 millX3 as possible.
2. Buy Mike Cameron
3. Use the rest to fill in the bench and provide depth (for example, right now there are 1-1/2 outfielders on the roster: McL. and Diaz… not counting Greg White and Infante for the moment).
4. Give Heyward a chance to win the RF job for April.
5. Freeman’s status depends on the success of #1 and #3.
6. Schafer likewise.

we need a 1B

Dutch Braves Fan - December 13, 2009 reply

Personally, I think this move will prove to be a mistake and will bite us in the ass, but I certainly understand the reasoning behind why the front office made the decision it did. I hope KJ likes it in Atlanta so much he doesn’t end up in Kansas City and decides to resign at around 2 mil or so.

Having said all that, if nothing changes in the situation between now and next Friday, my standard vote of 7 in the fan confidence poll goes to a 1.

Rhyno18 - December 13, 2009 reply

This isn’t NFL free agency where all the signings happen in the first week. Basically until Lackey and either Holliday or Bay sign there isn’t going to be a lot of action. The best thing we can hope for is that the bidding on Lackey goes high and teams start to think that they can save a lot of money by trading for Lowe. Hopefully Lackey signs before Bay so that once we move Lowe’s contract we can maybe get into the Bay talks. There’s almost no chance we sign Holliday because Boras is asking for 6 years at $18M per. When we move Lowe we could offer Bay 5 years $75M. His best offer that we know about is from the Mets at 4 years $65M. It’s been said that whatever team wants to go to 5 years would probably get him.

jack dein - December 13, 2009 reply

For that difference of 3 million I know who i would rather have. Bring in Holliday

Bay is not that good. Cameron would be better. I don’t see why we wouldn’t be able to sign Holliday for just $3 million a year more.

I really hope you don’t think Cameron is better than Bay. There’s a reason why one of them is going to get $15M a year and the other about half that.
Bay is a very good player. Yeah his defense is a little suspect but he’s not playing a premium position and his .280/.376/.519 career line makes up for it. He does K a lot but he also BB’s a lot to. Cameron is the better defender but he’ll also be 37 when next season starts. Bay has better power and is going to hit for a better avg. Offensively there’s no comparison between them, Bay is well ahead of Cameron.

jack dein - December 13, 2009 reply

There was a great fangraphs article...

…explaining why Cameron was pretty much as good as Bay, so he is hardly the only one who thinks this. Yes, Cameron is 37, but he won’t get more than 2 years—-given the years Bay will get; his age at the end of the contract will be pretty close to Cameron’s. Also, Bay not playing a premium position makes Cameron’s point, not Bay’s. Cameron plays a more valuable position—-for example, signing him would allow us to move McLouth to left and improve our defense at two positions.

Does Cameron not playing in more than 150 games the last 2 years not concern you? Cameron is a good player but his avg. and age really worry me.

jack dein - December 13, 2009 reply

his avg shouldnt worry you, bc his OBP is still strong, esp if we are batting him behind McCann in the 6th spot (whihc is where he would succeed the msot)…his age is a concern, but he has shown virtually no significant decline recently and i think he still has another year b4 that hits… if we have to give him 2 years im less excited about the deal, but it still istn enough of a concern to not take the risk for the reward of his 2010 season.

No I am not too concerned.

One year he would have been over 150 games but for a 25 game suspension to start the season. (greenies, I think). He’s has been fairly durable his entire career.

this is accurate

he apologized, didnt bitch took it like a man and served his suspension and came back and played pretty well.

I agree completely with the first paragraph.

John Holton - December 13, 2009 reply

your confidence drops 6 spots bc of kj?

even if you really like the guy…wtf

lol…even mine will stay at an 8.

KJ was good stuff when he was on, and he was a fantasy stud ($1 FA pickup, ride him out for his streak and then dump him when he starts to go cold). I don’t dislike the guy but I’m not that sad to see him go, he just didn’t have a spot here so better luck elsewhere.

Kind of like Glavine and Smoltz. Glavine is still my all time favorite SP even after two ugly break-ups with Atlanta. Smoltz, I don’t fault him for leaving and I don’t fault Wren for not doing more to lock him up. Sometimes it just doesn’t work out.

Sweatsack - December 13, 2009 reply

Big Picture Ignored

I didn’t read all 300+ comments on this thread, but I think many of us (myself included) have become so immersed in the KJ vs. Martin debate that we can’t view either one in a context outside of that…

I think KJ is a better baseball player, but I understand the decision to non-tender him and am in full support of Mr. Prado for 2010.

I think half of you need to learn to like Prado and the other half need to say good bye to Kelly cordially and in complete appreciation of what he did for this franchise.

VivaLosBravos - December 13, 2009 reply

Wren is saying they would try to bring Kelly back at a lower salary which I could get behind. I like him a lot off the bench, but I feel like Prado was the right choice for the future. Hopefully, we will resign him. If not, good luck KJ.

Jareth Cutestory - December 13, 2009 reply

I'll miss you Kelly

I am normally a pretty big Bobby Cox fan, but I was a little upset KJ never got a chance to get in the line up. When he got back off the DL. It seems like Bobby didn’t want to give Kelly a shot at winning the job back from Prado. I am sad to see KJ go but I am a Braves fan first! I cheer for the guys in the uniform. I would cheer for Hitler if he had a A on his cap!

Buttafuco13 - December 13, 2009 reply

I would cheer for Hitler if he had a A on his cap!

I sure as heck hope you are joking. Some may accuse me of having no sense of humor for this, but cheering for Adolf Hitler is not funny. Ever. Especially for my Jewish & other ethnically diverse friends on this board.

Maybe said friends don’t care and I’m being over-sensitive?

1. I was joking of course
2. I am Jewish

Buttafuco13 - December 13, 2009 reply

haha

HALT JEW!!

Stay where you are and do not attempt to change shape! :P

quick! Throw dollars at them and they will go away!

Oh the Hitler joke was in bad taste but it is ok to make fun of Jews?

Buttafuco13 - December 13, 2009 reply

it’s a borat reference i think

bpk228480 - December 13, 2009 reply

BING!!!

Yes. It is.

Smoltz's Beard - December 14, 2009 reply

Give me your tears, gypsy.

Congratulations you're the 500th commenter!

Smoltz's Beard - December 14, 2009 reply

Huzzah!

And that was totally worthy of the 500th post.

Well done, SB!

Smoltz's Beard - December 16, 2009 reply

/bow

Hitler jokes are never in good taste… its amazing people dont understand this

Wow, long thread!

Summary,
1. Sad to see KJ possibly go.
2. Prado may or may not have a better year next year.
3. Still not a FY Wren blind zombie follower…As a Longtime Braves fan my “Camilotian” view of our team gets shattered a little more each season…Who is next to get ‘chopped’, Chipper? Last year’s knee jerk reaction to overspend on starting pitching is starting to bite us in the bu(t)dget a little!

bravestatoo - December 13, 2009 reply

335+ comments? On a Satuday?

I f’ing love Talking Chop.

the sad thing is that they have pretty much all been made by 10 people

How is that a “sad” thing? We are having a conversation, as opposed to a post and dash. I’d rather that any day of the week!

Justin u'd be my hero

I know you do not “post and dash” but I tried to count all your posts for the 15th and lost count after 20…(ran out of fingers and toes)…..It seems that my problem is trying to read all the posts….do a summary (usually in my head except for the one above) before I try to add my humble opinion?
It would help if we had a “Play by Play” anouncer….or better yet a “color” commentary person to do summmeries….then we could just go to their comments page and get the “Reader’s Digest version”….(condensed)
So, sorry that I post and dash but I do injoy your posts
BTT

bravestatoo - December 16, 2009 reply

ha. kind of reminds me of the Ted

Who will be our new All Thumbs Jefferson?

musicman - December 13, 2009 reply

God…that was the worst play ever…

No. The dropped pop up against Philly was the worst.

Braves Journal Glossary

Scroll down to Prado.

10-4 - December 13, 2009 reply

Haha…nice.

is anyone else considering the extremely likely possibility that both prado and kj suck in the grand scheme of things and neither will be an everyday player in 2 or 3 years?

just to clarify

I feel like we’re arguing about dumping a pinto for a pacer…it’s not like either is a rolls royce…

FTW

Nobody is arguing that KJ is a Hall of Famer. But he is an above-average 2B. That’s nothing to scoff at.

eaheckman10 - December 13, 2009 reply

You’re undervaluing the woman in the passenger seat of the pinto

+1 billion

Prado has just put up a .311/ .364/ .463 over the last two seasons (encompassing 678 AB). These are big time production numbers that put him easily in the top 10% statistically of all MLB players during the same time period. And he is only 26 years of age.

So what exactly makes you think he sucks and it is extremely likely he will not be an everyday player in 2 or 3 years.

Assuming he stays healthy, I would say the probablity is he will continue to be a productive major league hitter into his 30s and demand a regular position in some team’s batting order.

/ reply fail to doghnut

For some reason i still dont trust his SLG…he never showed that in the minors and im leary that once he gets more ABs pitchers will negate that and he then slips into league avg. Im not advocating KJ, i dont care…

but i think thats the big knock on Prado, if the SLG isnt real, we are stuck with an avg hitter and a slightly below avg 2B defensively (depending on what you think of his stats at 2B). which still isnt that bad for 400k.

It seems silly to knock him based on speculation and conjecture. The reality is his production has been what its been.

Similarly, looking backwards at distant minor league numbers is ususally not very impressive to me. Why? Lots of reasons, including that some players simply mature, physically and as athletes, somewhat late – say, at 23 or 24 years of age, rather than at 20 or 21.

This can be and is a function of genetics, but can also have to do with nutrition and training techniques, for example, as well as psychological and/or psycho-social issues, all of which can particularly important factors for foreign players being displaced into the U.S. out of impoverished third world countries.

i realize that certain people are late bloomers…and i wouldnt consider it speculation and conjecture…it was 2-3 years ago he was in the minors and slugging int he high 300s…how did he all the sudden with in 08 go to 450s…(this is not a steroid accusation, for u conspiracy theorists).

Swo12bv - December 14, 2009 reply

What’s the point of being a fan if you can’t argue passionately over things that are ultimately meaningless?

i suppose thats a good point

and i actually was a passionate arguer in the beginning…6 months ago…

apoxonbothyourhouses - December 13, 2009 reply

I’m really embarrassed for a lot of you.

bigjoe - December 13, 2009 reply

i'm embarassed for a guy

named “big joe”

either you’re fat or you think you have a big $#$%. either way, i don’t respect you if you don’t respect people’s right to talk shit on a fan website.

whatever the case is, i’m betting you’re fat and you have a small $#$%.

and i bet

you are not much older than 12.

JasonHeywardisGod - December 13, 2009 reply

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand, we’re seeing why I’m embarrassed

bigjoe - December 13, 2009 reply

boom goes the dynamite

Yes

Because if anyone dares disagree with your views on Kelly Johnson, they are an embarassment

Get a clue

Not what I was referring to at all. The venom people are spitting about this shit is absolutely ridiculous. Theres a reason every thread results in dick waggling and name calling.

bigjoe - December 13, 2009 reply

As well as people saying that they are embarrassed for others

Thanks for contributing hero

Skyagusta - December 13, 2009 reply

yeah...this is usually the time when i leave tc

I think everyone on here forgets that these are just fan opinions on Talking Chop. I could walk into a store and be standing right next to bigjoe, ATLand UNC and Skyagusta and have absolutely no idea who you guys were. Who cares if bigjoe feels emberassed by the posters on here. It’s not like he’s gonna fire you from your job or fight you in an alley. If he wants to be emberassed, let him be emberassed. And don’t say stuff like you have a little dick or are fat…that’s just stupid. We could visit a local middle school if we wanted to hear stuff like that.

Everyone needs to just calm down. Again, I’m pretty sure Frank Wren, Bobby Cox and Co. don’t give 2 shits about any of our opinions. We’re all just fans of the Braves. Yeah, we’re gonna disagree, but don’t call someone out or get in a keyboard fight with them for disagreeing with you.

apoxonbothyourhouses - December 13, 2009 reply

+1000000

Skyagusta - December 13, 2009 reply

and i bet

that if you think Heyward is God, i’m betting you’ve go SERIOUS issues that can’t be reconciled with internet fan sites.

or

its a joke and you take things too SERIOUS for internet fan site, get a clue.

JasonHeywardisGod - December 13, 2009 reply

again with the proving you're 12...

we get it already.

Help!

This thread is growing faster than the universe!

Bronn - December 13, 2009 reply

Over 400 comments and no mention of Nitram Odarp, lame.

blitzerlover - December 13, 2009 reply

And now for something completely different....

How bout that @ss magnet, Tiger Woods?

This is one case where Derek Jeter is the perfect example. If you’re that huge of a sports icon, don’t get married!

oh hell yeah

there’s just too much temptation. you’re always in nice hotels, in nice cities, with pretty women and lots of cash. it’s a perfect recipie for cheating.

dont know why TWoods would cheat on his wife tho. Shes fucking HOT.

i always thought she was overrated

tho i dont like blonds

I guess I’d never really paid attention to her cause I never realized how gorgeous she is until I saw the cover of some magazine the other day. But still, shouldn’t have married her, or anyone.

So you know cb,...

she has a twin sister.

Stop talking about my wife.

Great, now I’m aware of one more woman who has absolutely no interest in dating me.

that's just cause she hasn't met you my friend.

You’re right. She hasn’t met me, so she doesn’t know I exist. Once she does though, no chance.

Nice way of looking at it...

got a nice chuckle out of me.

And I don’t know if I’d say no chance, maybe one in a million.

So your sayin there’s a chance.

rockybull - December 14, 2009 reply

Wait a minute...

what was all that “one in a million” talk?

bravesguy311 - December 14, 2009 reply

Because she's never around?

If I could have 1 billion in earnings from playing GOLF and have hot women throwing themselves at me…

yeha i’d be ok with that

i just never would have married, as CB mentions

Group Hug

If I were at the bar with any of you, I would gladly sit down and have a drink with you.

But if justrincredibul were there, I would probably have the bartender give him some cheap American light beer just to be fair. Busch light maybe?

Google Search: "Busch light"

No results were found. Did you mean tastes like horse piss?

Cool.

I love that you let a disagreement over a couple of Braves’ players get to you.

For what it’s worth, I have never insulted anyone nor have I stooped to name-calling or any of that other childish crap. I state facts and argue only facts and numbers.

But, if you want to make it personal, I am not going to discuss it any further.

I think ATLandUNC might’ve been joking. Im not sure tho..

Did you really just take a sarcastic comment about buying you a busch light seriously? I mean, I know its a shitty beer, but come on.

you forgot to hit the sarcastic font

next time i will remember my comic sans

Gondeee really needs to get on that

It really is bringing down the level of discourse around here...

I blame justin. Gondee is just an innocent bystander under the spell of his nefarious trickery.

I guess I did. My apologies.

I will have a Guiness…

bravesguy311 - December 14, 2009 reply

haha

aint that the truth.

I started with a ton of crappy light beer in my first years of college, but have since transitioned to Yuengling lager and other dark beers. It’s not anything fancy, but being from Pennsylvania its almost a requirement.

good lord, I have reply failed about 7 times in this thread. I’m still not used to my new laptop’s buttons. I swear I click reply every time.

haha it's cool

out in Arizona, it’s pretty much your basic American beers and then the Mexican beers like Corona and Dos Equis that are popular. The darker and heavier beers arent too big out here

Yuengling originated in South Carolina....

reverse carpet baggers.

blasphemy

men have been hanged for less

I coulda swore I'd seen on a bottle...

how it began in Charleston, and now I can’t find it. Damn internets and frazzled memory.

Pottsville, Pa 1829

Its the oldest brewery in the United States

Other than the Declaration of Independence, it is Pennsylvania’s greatest contribution to society.

there is a yeungling brewers in tampa as well now

Swo12bv - December 14, 2009 reply

most of sc didnt even have it for years

before i went to college, we didnt have it in greenville

Doghnut - December 14, 2009 reply

Ehh, I stay away from the Mexican piss water. The last time I drank Corona I ended up hooking up with my now ex girlfriend for the first time. Nothing good came from that. haha

facepalm

Hahah thata boy!

Are we gonna hit 500 comments?

Only 14 more…

Scott Coleman - December 14, 2009 via mobile reply

13

12

8

we had some stragglers mess up the countdown. The Final Countdown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhnYPecc1YE&feature=related

7, damn link fail...

does it really count if you force it?

Doghnut - December 14, 2009 reply

thats what she said

Swo12bv - December 14, 2009 reply

Dammit, you wasted a perfectly good 500th comment there!

oh, and this post is #499….so someone make the 500th good!

nice.

FineHamAbounds - December 14, 2009 reply

Someone with an ESPN Insider account....

Can someone relay what Keith Law said about KJ and Langerhans? I’m curious to hear his predictably pessimistic opinion.

Here’s what he said about KJ:

Kelly Johnson, 2B, Atlanta Braves: It seemed that Atlanta was waiting for Johnson to lose the second-base job even when he hit well in 2007 and adequately in 2008; in early 2009 he struggled badly enough that they finally took the job away, meaning he never had a chance to recover. He received just 83 plate appearances after the All-Star Break, although he hit well in the tiny sample. Johnson’s main problem is that he’s never been even average at second base and might be better suited to left field, where his bat probably doesn’t make him a regular, although if he returns to his 2007 form it would. Certainly worth a gamble given his patience, average power, and youth, as he’ll play 2010 at age 28.

and here is his take on Ryan:

Ryan Langerhans and Gabe Gross, OFs: Both Langerhans and Gross are useful role players who struggled in 2009 — Langerhans in limited duty and Gross in (perhaps) too much duty. Both are left-handed hitters who can play corner outfield spots very well; Gross has never hit left-handed pitching well, while Langerhans works the count against all pitchers but doesn’t make enough contact to play every day. I’d have interest in either guy for a final bench spot.

He is actually optimistic about both, which ironically, makes you the pessimist in this one.

: )