From ESPN, who had originally reported the deal was not done, but close, is now reporting it is done pending a physical.
The Atlanta Braves have reached preliminary agreement on a multiyear contract with free agent shortstop Rafael Furcal, a baseball source told ESPN.com's Jerry Crasnick.
The deal is pending completion of a physical exam.
The source said the agreement was finalized in a phone call from Furcal's agent, Paul Kinzer, to Atlanta general manager Frank Wren on Tuesday morning.
A club spokesman said an announcement has yet to be scheduled.
Foxsports.com first reported that Furcal and the Braves were close to a deal, reporting that it was believed to be for three years with a vesting option for a fourth season.
I imagine that "pending a physical" will be sometime today, and the Braves will officially announce it either this afternoon or tomorrow morning.
Updated in the original K-Ros article:
The deal, which will require Furcal to pass a physical, includes a vesting option for a fourth year that likely will push the potential value to $40 million.
The hope here is that he's past his injured-back woes. I don't think there was a free agent or trade target for the Braves this off-season that didn't have injury questions surrounding him.
0 recs | 113 comments
The article from Bowman on atlantabraves site says that the plan is to keep johnson and move him to left as opposed to bringing another LF and trading johnson
gopherbroke - December 16, 2008
i GUESS i can get behind that…furcal at second? alright, whatever.
bigjoe - December 16, 2008
Furcal has to good of an arm to stick at 2B. Someone is going but maybe not until the trade deadline. But someone is going.
Charmin519 - December 16, 2008
I think the bigger issue
is KJ in LF. Furcal is the better fit at 2b in my mind.
If anything, I can see the Braves revisitng the KJ to STL for Ankiel or Ludwick. I WOULD NOT trade escobar in a package for Greinke, hell I wouldn’t trade him straight up for Greinke.
scstrato - December 16, 2008
This is very interesting.
Ankiel or Ludwick for KJ….hmmmmm
mvandonsel - December 16, 2008
No love for the Greinke, huh?
Smoltz's Beard - December 16, 2008
I like Greinke, alot
I just don’t think he is worth Escobar mainly because the difference in controllable years. If Greinke were signed for maybe 4/5 years under market value then I’d probably change my stance.
I don’t mean to sound negative towards him, he’s a very good pitcher!
scstrato - December 16, 2008
your on point with the years and value. That's why KJ is the better option if we do this particular trade.
Charmin519 - December 16, 2008
crazy how people undervalue 25 year old #2 starters with ace potential. greinke is the type of player this organization needs to acquire and re-sign to contend for championships. Greinke is more valuable to this team than escobar is with the furcal signing and it isnt remotely close. Greinke would instantly become the best pitcher in the organization (yes, better than hanson)
jeg - December 16, 2008
He is good BUT
Two years of him is not worth escobar. Peavy was under control for twice as many years and people thought that our bid was not good enough. Just saying…….
Your right about what Greinke represents. I think a rotation of Greinke, JJ, and Hanson could be amazing down the road BUT………… the royals DONT want to deal Greinke unless it’s something that’s just to sweet to pass up. They could also wait until the trade deadline and possibly get more for him depending on the market. They have the advantage in any trade.
Charmin519 - December 16, 2008
most teams prefer NOT to have a pitcher locked up for more than 3 years because of injury and attrition concerns, which are major worry in dealing for peavy in particular. we still have more money to spend, why not hold on to it and put it towards re-signing greinke if we can trade for him. his sound delivery and lack of a history of arm injuries would suggest that he is more likely to stay healthy than average pitcher, he is the type of pitcher teams are less hesitant to invest in. i say we offer escobar, gorkys, b.jones, and osuna to kc for greinke and teahen. i think teahen should be a guy we consider, decent pop but the biggest reason is he is a 3B by trade and could step in for Chipper there when need be. add a RH platoon mate (Rivera) for teahen in LF and i think our pitching would be good enough for us to contend for the WC this year. and find a sucker with a LH reliever to trade who thinks Prado can play everyday
jeg - December 16, 2008
No, what is crazy
is how people over value potential over proven production. Greinke is a 25 year old starter who has a averaged an OPS against lefties of .798 over the last three years. Worse, this past year it rose to .824. That’s not #2 starter stats and it’s arguable whether he has ACE potential. As I said above, he is good but he ain’t that good. It’s also arguable that Vazquez and Jurrjens are just as good if not better.
Honestly, how can you value 2 years of him over 4/5 years of Escobar? I get your point, now that we have Furcal (which isn’t true yet) we need pitching more than we need a SS. That doesn’t affect a players value!
scstrato - December 16, 2008
greinke has had two seasons where LH batters have put up high OPS season and also put up two seasons in which LH batters put up OPS’s of .694 in 336 AB’s and .752 in 237 AB’s. Last year LHB BABIP .348 against Greinke. that number is somewhat a product of luck and should come back down into the .310 range. He still gets plenty of K’s vs LH and they dont hit excessive numbers of HR against him. OBP of .338 isnt exactly great either. offensively, escobar isnt that exceptional, ok pop, minimal speed, decent OBP. with the scenarios being played out of moving kelly to LF, the value of a plus offense from your middle infield is offset by the lack of power generated from your LF’er. just go to BP, check the values of the players i mentioned above and ill bet you’ll find that it isnt crazy, it generates greater utility
jeg - December 16, 2008
Correct, the last two seasons in a row. Someone with ACE potential should be getting better, not worse.
No but we paid a whopping 400k for that above average offense and elite defense. If we get a similar performance from Escobar this year (at less than 1mil) he’ll still have more value than Greinke (who is due to make between 5 and 8 mil) even if he improves.
That’s not the debate, I said …
and you said …
My opinion had nothing to do with moving KJ to LF.
For the record I love me some BP, but using VORP to compare pitchers vs positons players isn’t fair in that VORP doesn’t account for a players defense and also doesn’t take into account the players salary.
Sorry, but you lost me on this one.
scstrato - December 16, 2008
last two seasons in a row? the .752 ops in 2007 isnt really considered to be high and you didnt address the fact that the high BABIP is largely a function of luck. utility? maximizing current assets to improve the satisfaction of our goal of winning. your opinion that is that greinke is not as valuable as escobar and thus we should not make that trade? all im saying is we are a better team for at least the next to years if we move escobar for greinke. i agree VORP isnt perfect for the comparison but its probably the best available measure
jeg - December 17, 2008
VORP isn’t fair, isn’t perfect, isn’t even realistic in this instance. We’re talking about “real” players in Major League baseball, using a stat like VORP that ignores contributing factors such as defense, make-up, player salary, etc. to determine one players worth over another is faulty to say the least. In fact, it is probably the least effective measure of all the valuation stats out there with regards to our discussion.
You are right that a .752 OPS against isn’t necessarily that high, but I would counter it’s not #2 starter stuff either. My point was that Greinke is trending in the wrong direction against lefty hitters:
2004 / 145 IP’s / .693 OPS vs LHB
2007 / 122 IP’s (53 in relief) / .752 OPS vs LHB
2008 / 202 IP’s / .824 OPS vs LHB
Unfortunately I made a mistake in my calculations in that I completely skipped his 2005 numbers. So the trend actually looks like this:
2004 / 145 IP’s / .693 OPS vs LHB
2005 / 183 IP’s / .938 OPS vs LHB
2007 / 122 IP’s (53 in relief) / .752 OPS vs LHB
2008 / 202 IP’s / .824 OPS vs LHB
You might be able to explain a season away as bad luck or fluky babip, but trends don’t lie.
The bottom line, if I have this right, you say Greinke is more valuable than Escobar because we desperately need pitching, right? I say Escobar is more valuable than Greinke because of his performance relative to cost, position and controllable term. How about we just leave it there and call it a day?
scstrato - December 17, 2008
.752 isnt that uncommon for #1/2’s. Chris Carpenter, Carlos Zambrano, John Lackey, Brandon Webb, Josh Beckett are all in the .730 to .770 range which is likely where Greinke would have been of that scale (on the upper end) with average luck in 2008 (.300-.320 BABIP). Facing pitchers and being able to pitch around the 8 spot when necessary, as well as shifting to the weaker league would bring the numbers in question down. the trend is based largely on two seasons, one of which his BABIP was almost 40 points above average and the other when he pitched for a team that lost 106 games, in a season in which he was 21 and suffering from depression. the past two years as a 24 and 25 year old, he allowed LH .730 OPS in a neutralized scenario. Im done ranting
jeg - December 17, 2008
I think out of escobar and furcal at 2B your right. KJ in left would only happen if we can't move him.
Ankiel is a one year pickup for KJ. I don’t like that at all. I’d rather keep him KJ in LF than give him away for one year of Ankiel and a Boras binder in the FA next year.
KJ seems to be the smarter trade at this point. The Royals and Blue Jays were in on Furcal so there is a need. KJ for Alex Rios???? I’d be o.k. with that.
Greinke is good but it’s for two years so KJ is more likely to be involved. The value of escobar is too high for only two guaranteed years.
Charmin519 - December 16, 2008
Boras binder, nice.
Smoltz's Beard - December 16, 2008
Agreed agreed
Don’t like the loss in value of a Escobar/Greinke swap. Also I would prefer KJ in LF over Ankiel for similar reasons.
KJ for A Rios would blow my mind! Defensively I think he has better range than Francoeur and the arm isn’t too shabby either (though not as good as Frenchy). Offensively he has some room to grow but he’s a much better option than Frenchy right now!
scstrato - December 16, 2008
Kelly v. Ankiel/Ludwick
Ryan Ludwick:
Career .273/.345/.512, thanks almost wholly to a ridiculous .299/.375/.591 line last year. Prior to that, he had accrued about a season’s worth of ABs (637 AB) from ‘02-’07. Combined, he went approx. .253/.319/.446. His early minors numbers are age 21/A+ of .264/.353/.505 and 22/AA of .269/.351/.503. His power increased in AAA, getting into the .900+ OPS range, but regressed until his 2007/2008 seasons. He turns 30 next year. To me, everything about his numbers scream fluke season.
Rick Ankiel:
Ankiel is much harder to judge, for obvious reasons. However, what you’ve seen at the major league level is what you’re probably going to get. In 2007, he had 172 ABs for a .285/.328/.535 line. He continued the trend this year in 413 ABs for a .264/.337/.506 line. If he can improve his ability to take a walk, he would shoot up to star level. However, he’s going into his Age 29 season. Not gonna happen. Plus, due to his years of pitching, he’s close to free agency.
Kelly Johnson:
Johnson had, by all accounts, a strong 2007, posting a .276/.375/.457 as a 2B. He regressed slightly in 2008, mostly due to his increased aggressiveness (likely a Bobby Cox byproduct). .287/.349/.446. What we can likely expect from him is somewhere in between (i.e., .280/.360/.450 hitter). That’s extremely solid for a 2B, but mediocre for a LF. However, keep in mind that Johnson is entering his prime years (i.e., Age 27 season), so there is more room for improvement.
In comparison:
For either player, it seems like a fair trade. As far as I can tell, Ankiel has roughly 4 years of service and is still in arbitration, so he’d be under control for two more. Again, he looks like a low OBP, .500+ slugging player. Compared to Kelly, who may be a super-two (does anyone know?), we’d lose two arbitration years. We lose some OBP but counter than by getting power, which our line-up sorely needs. Ankiel would also likely be a better defender than KJ (or at the very least, have a stronger arm). I’m unfamiliar with how Ludwick’s contract situation work, but I assume he’s counted on ML service time as well. As such, he is also just entering arbitration, which matches up with Kelly’s service years. Again, salaries are a wash. I’m much more wary of Ludwick. Although he’s had the best individual season (by far), nothing in his performance says that he’ll match it. Like Ankiel, though, we’re likely sacrificing some OBP for more SLG.
Currently, our line-up is made up of a lot of contact dependant hitters. We have two true power hitters (Chipper and McCann) who are also both good sources of OBP. If Furcal and Escobar hit .300 (as expected), they should adequately equip our lineup with some solid OBP numbers. Likewise with Kotchman, who also draws plenty of walks. None of the three are significant power sources. Francoeur is very much a wild-card, as he has power potential, but desperately needs to draw his BA to the .270 range, and up his walks considerably to be of any help whatsoever. Likewise for the CF position.
Thus, the argument for Johnson vs. Ludwick and Ankiel comes down to whether you think our lineup needs more OBP or more SLG. As a KJ fan, I’m inclined to hang on to him, but I can see the argument for pulling the trigger on a trade.
This may all be a moot point anyway.
jc25 - December 16, 2008
i agree. As much as I love Kelly, he needs to go, we still don’t have a power and his value decreases as a left fielder.
SayHeyWerd - December 16, 2008
Clearly FW isn’t going after Dunn, so I would say KJ in left is a reasonable solution. Only problem is, if we aren’t going to trade any of them, who are we going to use to go after a pitcher?
Bmacbandwagon - December 16, 2008
Franceour. He should net a king’s ransom, right?
RIGHT?
matches - December 16, 2008
You think we could get Kyle Davies back for him?
Bmacbandwagon - December 16, 2008
No.
matches - December 16, 2008
DOB still firmly beleives that one of them is on the way out. FW and Bobby have said numerous times that moving Kelly to left wasnt really an ideal option
gopherbroke - December 16, 2008
so.....
a lineup of
furcal
kj
chipper
mccann
escobar
kotchman
francoeur
schafer
and our rotation:
vazquez
jurrjens
smoltz
campillo
hanson/glavine/?
and our bullpen:
soriano
gonzalez
loogy (o’flaherty or daniel boone)
moylan
boyer/acosta
bennett/carlyle
and bench of:
prado
infante
diaz
norton?
blanco/anderson
ross
i can live with that if…
1.francoeur produces power and obp
2.schafer doesnt flop
3.chipper stays healthy
4.furcal stays healthy
5.smoltz stays healthy
6.vazquez returns to form
7.hanson lives up to his potential
8. soriano stays healthy
9. moylan can bounce back
9. world turns upside down!
but here’s my question: who’s going to be the power against lefties? that’s still a major issue. we need a high-end starter, or a big time hitter. wren, good move, but it should be a prequel to another move.
ryan c - December 16, 2008
Chance than Jordan Schafer starts the season in Atlanta: 0.0%
cbwilk - December 16, 2008
I am not disagreeing with you that it isnt likely, but why do you say 0.0 %
gopherbroke - December 16, 2008
I say 0.0% because they have two guys, Gregor Blanco and Josh Anderson, with major league experience ahead of him. I can’t even think of a situation where they would take a guy who hasn’t played above AA (and missed a third of the season in AA) and play him above two other players who have major league experience. This is even more solid in my mind by the fact that Blanco held his own last season and Anderson showed a great amount of promise when he got his chance at the end of the season.
Things might be different if Schafer was a righty, or if one of the other two was a righty, then you could platoon him and it might make more sense. But, they’re all lefty, so again, it really doesn’t make any sense.
Schafer is by far the better player of the three and could probably outperform them from day one, but he needs time to develop in AAA. It may be the month, it may be the whole season. My guess is that by the end of the season Schafer is the centerfielder, but there’s just no logical reason why he would start the season in the major leagues.
cbwilk - December 16, 2008
The fact that Furcal is on board now to hit leadoff to me means the exact opposite. To me now there is no need for Anderson or Blanco in that spot, and Schafer can just hit 8th with little to no pressure on him to perform. And like everyone has mentioned he can outperform either of those two defensively right now.
gopherbroke - December 16, 2008
I agree with that in theory, but again, Schafer needs more time in the minor leagues. Aside from that fact, which is enough of an argument really, how do you justify the time you’ve spent developing the other two players, particuarly Blanco?
The same concept about aleviating the pressure can be used for both Blanco and Anderson. They will probably perform better out of the 8 hole and do an adequate job while Jordan puts the finishing touches on his game so that he is ready for a major league job. There is absolutely no reason to rush him when you have not one, but two players who can do an adequate job at the major league level ahead of him.
cbwilk - December 16, 2008
I dont dispute that Schafer would benefit from more playing time, but to say that there is a Zero percent chance of him to make the roster out of Spring Training because of Gregor Blanco and Josh Anderson ahead of him is just not accurate. Neither of those two should is viewed as a long term CF, or OF solution. The way that you justify Inserting Schafer ahead of either of those two is the simple fact that his ceiling is so much higher, and if he shows that he can handle the job in Spring training he has a chance of opening up with the club. If he doesnt show that then send him down for more seasoning. But to block him with Blanco or Anderson(neither long term solutions) if he shows he is ready would be a bad move.
Again I agree he could use more seasoning, and time at AAA. But to say there is a 0% chance is not accurate.
gopherbroke - December 16, 2008
So who starts in center? Blanco, Anderson, Jones? I think your % is wrong?
Charmin519 - December 16, 2008
Yes, Blanco or Anderson. Schafers D is ready by all accounts but the bat is not. He also missed a ton of seasoning in AA with the time off. Combine all this with the Braves not wanting to start is ARB clock and I think CB hit the nail on the head.
scstrato - December 16, 2008
I dont think his ARB clock will have anything to do with this, and never has for the braves. The fact of the matter is that right now he is the best defensive CF that we have, and the other two options are not exactly great offensive players in their own rights. If Schafer impresses in Spring training he has a shot. May not be a gaurantee, but a definite shot.
gopherbroke - December 16, 2008
I think it really depends on who we pick up for the LF
If we actually pick up a solid option for LF then your right but do we really want to platoon Kelly Johnson, Matt Diaz, and Brandon Jones in LF while also playing Blanco and Anderson in CF. Anderson has some potential but that’s big risk with the solidification of our rotation.
the only reason ankiel is attractive is because he can play CF or LF. So it give us options. But is it worth the trade???? Cardinals asking price is supposedly higher for Ankiel.
Charmin519 - December 16, 2008
Ankiel plays CF, but he’s really bad at it.
Smoltz's Beard - December 16, 2008
Dude has a cannon though.
mvandonsel - December 16, 2008
If we can get Ankiel to play CF and not give up Kelly or Yunel then you add the power to CF and can put Kelly in LF without the huge need for power there. Of course this creates a potential issue against Left Handed starters who we struggled against last year anyway.
An OF of Kelly, Ankiel, and Frenchy(If he bounces back) would be good.
But Ankiel in the last year of his deal is not worth trading either KJ, or Yunel especially with Boras as his agent.
gopherbroke - December 16, 2008
sorry I'm not an ankiel guy. That was more of an answer to something further up on this thread. I was trying to address to points. Not big on ankiel for trade.
Charmin519 - December 16, 2008
I am not a huge Ankiel guy either, i was just saying if he can be had without giving up either KJ or Yunel then go for it. Getting a power bat in CF, or dealing Frenchy and getting another RF bat with power is the only i can see the braves putting Kelly in left.
Back to Schafer though, If he is as good defensively as they say, maybe he can make up for some of the liabilities that an Adam Dunn signing would create.
gopherbroke - December 16, 2008
LOL at brandon jones playing center field.
bigjoe - December 16, 2008
thank you. Someone got the joke.
Charmin519 - December 16, 2008
Smoltz may not be ready until August, maybe…..if he comes back at all.
We still need a starter, and although he kills the Mets, please not Randy Wolff
bravesguy311 - December 16, 2008
What?
I think you’re thinking of Hudson, not Smoltz. If Smoltz comes back it will be way before August, unless he has a setback and in that case I don’t see him coming back at all.
scstrato - December 16, 2008
Your right
Sorry. We have so many question marks with those guys, if they all work out, we would be in great shape. Still need a starter, and i wasnt mistaken about Wolff, sure of that one
bravesguy311 - December 16, 2008
311 rules
heap16 - December 16, 2008
agreed. Kelly for Ludwick or Corey Hart would look sharp
SayHeyWerd - December 16, 2008
Any chance we are also the mystery team in on Andy Pettite. It would seem to make sense, with most of our pitching 1-2 years away. Just a thought, since we’ve got the Furcal mystery team out of the way as I predicted.
bonneat - December 16, 2008
please god no
bigjoe - December 16, 2008
Man oh man.
If we trade Escobar, I’m going to be pissed. He’s so freaking valuable when you combine his age, glove, and bat. However, a Furcal-Escobar 2nd-SS combo, that sounds good to me.
Perrinbar - December 16, 2008
Plenty Of Money Left.
I know now that it’s not likely to happen, but the Furcal signing (4/$40M at most, apparently) should give us enough wiggle room to still sign Ben Sheets ($15/year for two or three seasons). I don’t understand why the Braves seem allergic to Sheets. A rotation of Sheets, Vazquez, Jurrjens, Campillo and Smoltz/Morton/Reyes/Hanson/Glavine is solid. A bullpen of Gonzalez, Soriano, Moylan, Stockman, Boyer, Logan/O’Flaherty, etc. should be fine. A line-up of Furcal, Escobar, Chipper, McCann, Kelly, Kotchman, Francouer and Blanco/Anderson is the weak link, but could proove strong enough. I like this move (and the Vazquez trade) so long as we cap it off with the right signings/trades now. So far, so good, all things considered.
ejruiz - December 16, 2008
i agree...
…the braves should go after sheets
heap16 - December 16, 2008
Sheets and ...
Kawa ma ??? … the japanese pitcher and I like our chances.
scstrato - December 16, 2008
SHEEEEEEEEEEETSSSSSSSSSSSS
is god
SayHeyWerd - December 16, 2008
i think this is a good move. i think FW has something in the works for a SP involving escobar. i would hate to see him go, but this is my gut feeling
heap16 - December 16, 2008
chances of schafer starting in center....
very good, according to many braves sources.
regarding furcal trade:
i hope this is a prequel to a francoeur (the real issue) trade. if we can get rid of francoeur and others for a solid high end rotation guy for cheap, then we can fill the right field gap with a power hitter. as of now, we have spent about 21 mil of the projected 45. that puts about 8 mil for smoltz, 5 mil for the new signee(if needed), and 11 mil for a power right field bat. i predicted the furcal signing with kj going back to left. i hope my newest prediction rings true. i still say to go after abreu. he wont cost any draft picks and could be had for a reasonable price (12 mil). his production, along with kj and schafer, would make a solid outfield.
who would bite on a francoeur trade? royals? reds? mariners? rockies? who else needs some outfield pop? i say we start campaigning the newer, slimmer francoeur as a center field candidate.
ryan c - December 16, 2008
So Francoeur has 1 stellar season, 2 pretty good seasons, and a stinker season and you give up on him?
He might end up like Andruw Jones. But he still could end up a good outfielder. Why give up on him so early?
scottyboy10 - December 16, 2008
mid 700 OPS seasons are “pretty good”, and a season where he gets less than 300 ABs is stellar?
bigjoe - December 16, 2008
because he is on a downward trend. Since about a month after Jeff Francoeur reached the majors he has steadily gotten worse each season. His one season where he showed improvement in one aspect of his game saw a steep decline in another part of his game. He just hasn’t shown ANY ability to combine multiple skills into a solid/consistent baseball player.
yondaime4 - December 16, 2008
ive mentioned this before but ill drop it again. Baseball prospectus is amazingly accurate in their predictions, considering what they attempt to do. Francoeur was their #1 guy to break out last year and it didnt happen. Prior to last season, Francoeur had been making strides to improve his biggest weakness (plate discipline) but regressed this past year. It happens to many players and a large share of them are able to bounce back. BP mentioned him as a mid-ballot MVP candidate prior to the season starting, so its not like he is a lost cause. Maybe the breakout will come a year late or maybe he’s done, but its bullshit that most of the braves fans have completly turned on him. he is a great competitor who wants to succeed and i think we shouldnt be so pessimistic about his future
jeg - December 16, 2008
so we should just keep sticking his sub .700 OPS out in RF even though he keeps getting worse? when do we stop? should we just keep betting on his potential? Its great that BP is so accurate since they were completely wrong about him breaking out. In fact he did the complete opposite so whats the point in that? The point isn’t I am giving up on him. The point is having him in RF leaves a gaping hole in our line up. He will be 25 this year and that is a year a lot of people figure it out, so lets hope for that, but I really pray the Braves don’t bank on that because he hasn’t given a whole lot of reason to invest in him.
yondaime4 - December 16, 2008
he was pretty good in 07’, doubles are a very strong indicator of more HR to come and he hit 40 so being that he had the same number of extra base hits in 06’ and 07’. tBP doesnt have a history of placing that tag on players who dont breakout in the season predicted or the following. most recently granderson in 2007. i dont believe we have a better option, at least not internally, than to hope he can get back to the 07’ level or better. im not making excuses for him he was dogshit player in 08’ but he has shown to be better than that and he’s still just 24 so its reasonable to expect that we have seen the worst of francoeur and havent seen his best
jeg - December 17, 2008
maybe
part of the thinking is that strong up the middle defense will help in the progression of all the young pitching coming up?
son.of.sourman - December 16, 2008
Probably
a pretty accurate assumption, gives them a better chance to be successful out of the gate.
Hizilla - December 16, 2008
doesn’t help Hanson any, dude has a crazy fly ball ratio.
yondaime4 - December 16, 2008
A thought on a slightly different track
How about KJ to the Dodgers for Matt Kemp? The Dodgers are rumored to not like Kemp’s attitude and are looking for Jeff Kent’s long term replacement. We maybe throw in a say #10-20 pitching prospect and we stay young, we add speed and power and we still have money to spend (Adam Dunn please Mr. Wren). Furcal, Escobar and Kemp in front of Chipper and McCann is something I could like.
HailStonz - December 16, 2008
Kemp for KJ would be an absolute steal.
And is not going to happen.
jc25 - December 16, 2008
Wow
The Dodgers would be very foolish to deal Matt Kemp. Then again, Colletti isn’t the sharpest tool in the shed.
If LA really put Kemp on the block, however, they would get a whole lot more than KJ + pitching prospect.
Yakker - December 16, 2008
i like the idea of kemp in LF..
but a couple other names id like to see is hariston jr (if hes RH) at lworst he could platoon w/ kelly.
or wat about milton bradley?
pj16 - December 16, 2008
JERRY HAIRSTON AS A BIG BAT IMPACT LEFT FIELDER?!?!?!?!? why not just put infante out there?
bigjoe - December 16, 2008
bigjoe
would be more of an impact bat than JHjr.
Hizilla - December 16, 2008
Kemp for KJ would be an absolute steal.
And is not going to happen.
jc25 - December 16, 2008
But Alex Rios straight up for KJ.
Kansas City needs an infielder. They were on the bidding for Furcal. I believe there starting a young pup antonelli at 2b. Why not get johnson-proven and let antonelli be a utility role. Rios is at 4 mil a year.
Charmin519 - December 16, 2008
My bad Blue Jays.
Charmin519 - December 16, 2008
Not happening
I’m from Toronto and there’s no way the Jays would make that deal.
The Jays need a shortstop bat and some pitching. From where they sit, the Jays would equate Rios at the very least to Yunel and we know that would never happen (especially given the economics of their deals). Remember, the Jays were ready to pull the trigger on a Rios for Lincecum deal last off-season before the Giants smartened up…
shayne_aman - December 16, 2008
eyyy im from Toronto too
yeah no way Jays deal Rios hes there best hitter and very valuable to them. Plus Aaron Hill is coming back and theres at least some optimism there.
SayHeyWerd - December 16, 2008
and antonelli is ont he Padres.
SayHeyWerd - December 16, 2008
Complete Shiet. Sorry for that. You can tell I was thinking about two different teams and mixing it up.
Charmin519 - December 16, 2008
you just keep setting the bar higher and higher. are you the guy that said we could trade diaz to tampa for andy sonnanstine?
bigjoe - December 16, 2008
or Jackson with Brandon Jones in on the deal. yep it would've happened too.
Charmin519 - December 16, 2008
LMFAO
bigjoe - December 16, 2008
Matt Joyce Straight Up trade
Brandon Jones
Josh Anderson
Diaz
Yes, for jones or anderson we could have got Jackson.
Yes, for jones or anderson and Diaz plus 500k you could have sonnanstine who is seriously is better than what he is project at. I will go look up the comparison of rays pitchers if you wish.
matt joyce
Anderson is identical and Jones is not far behind. Joyce has better D than Jones by far but Anderson and Joyce are brothers from another mother.
But who cares…….that was a long time ago.
Charmin519 - December 16, 2008
hold the phone.
matt joyce is a 24 year old power hitter with a solid eye.
matt diaz is a 30 year old platoon player who never learned how to take a pitch in his life.
josh anderson is a 26 year old speedster who has also never learned how to take a walk and doesn’t have enough power to hit the ball past the warning track.
brandon jones is 25 and his stats on every level of baseball scream “fourth outfielder”. he did nothing this season that was particularly outstanding, except maybe breathe and occupy a roster spot
explain to me how in the FUCK any of those 3 guys are equal. also explain to me why we would want edwin jackson, who has a career WHIP of over 1.6.
also explain to me why the rays would trade andy sonnanstine for any of those players, when he walks approximately 1.5 guys every 9 innings.
bigjoe - December 16, 2008
Joyce is like Dunn with his K's and his walk history was not great in the minors at all.
And I admit that Diaz was a horrible person to put in the original post but because I did that I included him on this one as well.
My reason is the Rays were going to drop Jackson for the first person that bit and they did. They got absolutely the best return they could have hoped for with Joyce. At the time of the original post it would have been a serious offer. You could have easily put Anderson in and just tried to clear Diaz roster spot.
Jackson has only been a true starter for the past TWO seasons and he improved in every category this year. He also played in batter friendly league and parks including the Trop. I’m not saying he is a FUCKING ACE I’m saying he was my cheaper replacement to Hampton.
I’m not getting in to this shit again. I’ll admit that Diaz was stupid but it’s easy to say Joyce was a great choice now that it’s done. At the time of my original post I wasn’t that fucking off. For christ sakes look at Hampton’s stats from 2001-2004 (before he got hurt).
He walked more and struck out less people and besides 2003 ERA his ERA was the same as Jackson’s. I’m not saying that this would solve everything but I’m saying that at the time that I posted this Jackson would have adequately replaced Hampton for cheaper and without giving up much.
Done. Don’t care what your dick waiving analogy ass is going to say. It doesn’t matter, it’s moot, and I admitted Diaz was stupid, so either way you win. I’m failing at my attempt to present my arguement which to me made sense back in early November.
Charmin519 - December 16, 2008
bigjoe - December 16, 2008
Charmin519 - December 16, 2008
now you’re just namecalling
bigjoe - December 16, 2008
I thought it was appropriate
Either way it’s fucking a hilarious pic.
Charmin519 - December 16, 2008
I just think there was way to much potential for Jackson in the Pen and as a 3/4 starter not to look at him.
Sonnanstine would have taken a little more (most likely not DIAZ and I’ll admit that) but something not to expensive. He is a 3/4 as well. I’ll admit that I was in the Rays fever at the time but I still like Sonnanstine for Josh Anderson and one piece we gave up for Vazquez not named flowers. Plus Sonnansinte is 400k and we still have all our money. No he is not as reliable as Vazquez but at the time of my post I thought we would sign an ACE, Smoltz, and a Sonnanstine type guy plus a LF.
Charmin519 - December 16, 2008
did infante hit .324 with a near .400 obp?
pj16 - December 16, 2008
jerry hairston has 39 homers in 11 seasons.
adam dunn had 40 last season.
bigjoe - December 16, 2008
yea i just checked out his career stats...im now off the hairston bandwagon
pj16 - December 16, 2008
thank you for showing some humility and seeing the error of your ways, we can consider everything forgiven now.
bigjoe - December 16, 2008
Screw that! We’re holding grudges!
cbwilk - December 16, 2008
That should be the logo on the top of the website: “Talking Chop…We Hold Grudges”
Smoltz's Beard - December 16, 2008
Certainly beats what's on there now
I personally like:
“Talking Chop – An Atlanta Braves Blog; angrier "fans” than your team"
royhobbs - December 16, 2008
I like it. We could put a pic of the growler next to it.
Smoltz's Beard - December 16, 2008
SUCK ONE
bigjoe - December 16, 2008
What!
You don’t like the tag line?!
gondeee - December 17, 2008
Grudges Rock!
It’s a good idea to hold a grudge, then later get your ass handed to you in the ensuing argument.
buzzdeadwax - December 17, 2008
With the addition of Furcal, here's what I hope happens next
With the idea that Yunel will remain in Atlanta as the Brave’s shortstop, that means Furcal will be the Brave’s everyday secondbaseman which in turn leads to a Kelly trade in my mind (don’t listen to Bowman). So with that in mind, what teams could be possible suitors, who also have a young starter available in return? Pittsburgh could be a possibility IF they want to move Sanchez back to third base. Kansas City is another which would allow them to move Aviles back to his natural position, shortstop.
And if I had to choose, I would pick KC and see if Greinke is a fair swap. Obviously most Braves fans will think so, but I have a feeling it will take at least one more GOOD piece to get the young pitcher.
So if Kelly is traded, perhaps Wren would consider signing a cheap left fielder. Juan Rivera perhaps? I wouldn’t mind seeing that move.
Then he should look to sign one more starter (that’s if he still has enough financial room). Hopefully that pitcher is Ben Sheets.
ChipperTeixeira89 - December 16, 2008
I am officially not cool with KJ being platooned in LF, and we all know that will happen with Bobby as manager.
10-4 - December 16, 2008
Well this came out of no where
I’m very confused! I hope it’s Furcal at second and Yunel at SS like some people are reporting. I wonder how many times Furcal will end Knoblauching the ball to 1st
VictorW - December 16, 2008
yeah this trade does officially give us the two best infield arms in the NL
yondaime4 - December 16, 2008
man... i've been lost....
Ok, ok, granted, its been like 4 months since i’ve signed back on this bad boy (there was some non-Braves-decline related family issues….)
BUT ANYWAY – i guess I thought it would be obvious that now that we’ve picked up an SS that we know and like, Escobar will be traded.
Is this not obvious? What am I missing here?
traphicg - December 16, 2008
Because apparently Kelly Johnson is going to be our power hitting, middle of the order, right handed LFer. Duh.
Smoltz's Beard - December 16, 2008
hey there Beard-o
well well well, arent I just an ignoramus….
You know when you’re staring at a problem or something for hours, trying to figure it out, and a random person comes along and solves it too easily? Like, sometimes, we’re TOO close to the issue and it takes an outsider to sum it up:
I havent been following much sportage at all. I’ve come across a few headlines, enough to know that the Bravos ditched Peavy when he was hemming and hawing, and CC and AJ have gone to the dark side. That’s done. BUT – all of a sudden, i hear Furcal gets signed, and it would just take common sense to think – well, now we can go get our SP that we need.
Someone summed it up well earlier – they said that now we have Escobar, the best option on the market when skill, price, and everything else gets averaged out. How can we NOT use this to trade? B/c we want to transform someone? That dont add up folks.
traphicg - December 16, 2008
Good to see you again trap. Hope all is well.
Smoltz's Beard - December 16, 2008
I've only heard that from Bowman
I think it’s safe to say we have a taker for KJ or Escobar.
TradeAndruw - December 16, 2008
hey. apparently furcal’s agents are all “HOLD ON THERE SPARKY” and they’re still talking to the dodgers. i say pull the offer as a fuck you.
bigjoe - December 16, 2008
bahahahahaha
this thing has turned into a financial and cultural disaster
Rafael Belliard's SLG % - December 16, 2008
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